There Is No God
You know how nuns take a vow of celibacy? Did you know it's because when they become a nun they "marry" Jesus and he becomes their husband? Crazy, huh? A whole bunch of women join the Catholic church, live together and wear their habit outfit every day which they say is their wedding dress. True stuff, ask any nun. And they're all married to the same fictitious man in the sky who they have one-sided conversations with all the time, and have special repetitive conversations with his long deceased mother who, I guess, is now their mother-in-law.Quote: EvenBobIf there was no Christian religion, and somebody went
to a shrink and told them all the things Christians believe,
the guy would be labeled a nut case. But because these
beliefs have been grandfathered in, so to speak, we accept
the weirdo's who believe them as being harmless deluded
misfits. We nod and smile when they go on about what
they believe, pat them on the head, and hope they don't
bother us anymore.
Quote: HotBlondeYou know how nuns take a vow of celibacy? Did you know it's because when they become a nun they "marry" Jesus and he becomes their husband?
The "marriage" part is common knowledge. there's even a joke about it. Briefly, two rabbis wonder into a church where nuns are being ordained and sit down to watch. When someone asks what they're doing there, one of them answers "We're on the groom's side."
I didn't know that was the reason for celibacy.
But since I can't believe priests do a gay marriage with Jesus, what is the reason for their celibacy?
Quote: HotBlondeYou know how nuns take a vow of celibacy? Did you know it's because when they become a nun they "marry" Jesus and he becomes their husband? Crazy, huh?
Nobody in the Catholic heirarchy gets to have sex. Mary
was a virgin, nuns are married to a dead guy, priests are
celibate. It used to be the part of the Catholic rule book
that covered sexual sins was three time larger than any
other part of the book. Catholics have always been obsessed
with sex, and still are.
Quote: NareedBut since I can't believe priests do a gay marriage with Jesus, what is the reason for their celibacy?
I think FrG touched on that earlier. I vaguely remember a snipet of Bible postings that said something to the effect of being non-sexual was being Christ-or-God-like. If one must, one may marry (man/woman only) but if one wants to truely be of God, one must remain celibate.
I took it as a level thing, since video game analogies are the only ones working for me lately. Prayer before bed is like a lvl 5 believer. Going to church adds a few more onto that. Following traditions like Lent and such adds even more. But if you want to be an epic guild leader, then celibacy it is.
To put it into Star Trek terms, the simple prayers are like the red shirts, the celibate are like Jean-Luc.
Quote: FaceIf one must, one may marry (man/woman only) but if one wants to truely be of God, one must remain celibate..
Most of the sexual and marriage stuff comes from Paul. He
was a hardcore bachelor, never married, lifelong military,
and had a young male 'companion' that went with him
everywhere. He was an obvious woman hater, just read
what he wrote in his letters. Was he Gay? Duh...
Quote: FaceI think FrG touched on that earlier. I vaguely remember a snipet of Bible postings that said something to the effect of being non-sexual was being Christ-or-God-like. If one must, one may marry (man/woman only) but if one wants to truely be of God, one must remain celibate.
So this would apply to laymen as well? Wouldn't that contradict god's wish for humans to populate the Earth? Wouldn't it ideally drive us to extinction? not that a contradiction in the Bible is in any way surprising.
To prevent the Church's property from being inherited by the priest's offspring.Quote: NareedBut since I can't believe priests do a gay marriage with Jesus, what is the reason for their celibacy?
Celibacy is a counter wittness to the sex saturated world that wants you to believe you will die if you do not have sex. Some find it amazing that someone can live without having sex or acting on our sexual desires. Our emotions and powerful sex drive are so often manipulated by marketing and the culture that it has become almost impossible to imagine someone who is not moved by their lust. It is incredibly freeing to stand strong against an almost constant barrage of temptation thrown at us to give into our sexual desires.
Most importantly celibacy shows the reality of the realtionship with Christ. It is NOT a one sided conversation and this mystical relationship with the living person of Jesus Christ sustains the celibate in a way just as real as husband and wive. It is part of the reason why you can see such disbelief and ridicule of celibacy, many cannot imagine how a life of loving prayer can be so fulfilling. Make no mistake about it the life of celibacy is grounded in a deep and very real relationship with God.
Quote: NareedSo this would apply to laymen as well? Wouldn't that contradict god's wish for humans to populate the Earth? Wouldn't it ideally drive us to extinction? not that a contradiction in the Bible is in any way surprising.
No, it's not for everyone. Like any other belief, there are levels of commitment. You can be "vegetarian" but still eat fish, or be vegetarian but still eat butter and jello, or you can be a hardcore vegan and eat only grass and tree bark.
If you're just a rank and file religious person, you just gotta follow the basic set of rules. Don't kill anyone, don't be gay, strive to be and do good, say a prayer, you know, the basics. If you want to commit more, you get involved in the church, run a soup kitchen, lead a church group. You want to really get into, you go be a missionary or something.
Priesthood is the ultimate level of commitment. As such, they follow the example set by Christ, they yearn to be like Christ. Be celibate, forsake wealth, etc. Basically, a testiment of how serious your commitment, to give up your entire life to God.
At least that's my very ignorant view on it. I'm sure FrG will set it straight of it mucked it up. It's not so much church doctrine that "to be religious, you can't have sex" because, yeah, that would be contradictive. It's only for the select few who have been called to the top.
Quote: FaceNo, it's not for everyone. Like any other belief, there are levels of commitment. You can be "vegetarian" but still eat fish,
Uh, no. You can call yourself a vegetarian and still eat fish. You can't be a vegetarian and still eat fish.
Quote:or be vegetarian but still eat butter and jello,
Butter, yes. Dairy production doesn't kill the animal. Jell-o, no. It's made of dead animal parts you don't want me to name :P
That is, if you want to be consistent to your principles.
Quote:Priesthood is the ultimate level of commitment. As such, they follow the example set by Christ, they yearn to be like Christ. Be celibate, forsake wealth, etc. Basically, a testiment of how serious your commitment, to give up your entire life to God.
Forsake wealth? Like a fish-eating vegetarian, I guess.
As for celibacy, why don't other Christian sects demand it as well? Protestants in their myriad varieties don't, as far as I know, and neither do others like Anglicans and the Eastern Orthodox as far as I'm aware. This is more likely a peculiarity of the Roman church.
And I have to wonder how many priests are actually celibate. I've asked some local Catholic acquaintances, and they wink and laugh when they say of course they all are.
Quote: FaceNo, it's not for everyone. Like any other belief, there are levels of commitment. You can be "vegetarian" but still eat fish, or be vegetarian but still eat butter and jello, or you can be a hardcore vegan and eat only grass and tree bark.
If you're just a rank and file religious person, you just gotta follow the basic set of rules. Don't kill anyone, don't be gay, strive to be and do good, say a prayer, you know, the basics. If you want to commit more, you get involved in the church, run a soup kitchen, lead a church group. You want to really get into, you go be a missionary or something.
Priesthood is the ultimate level of commitment. As such, they follow the example set by Christ, they yearn to be like Christ. Be celibate, forsake wealth, etc. Basically, a testiment of how serious your commitment, to give up your entire life to God.
At least that's my very ignorant view on it. I'm sure FrG will set it straight of it mucked it up. It's not so much church doctrine that "to be religious, you can't have sex" because, yeah, that would be contradictive. It's only for the select few who have been called to the top.
Thanks Face, just have a few things. First of all and very important, not being gay is not at all a requirement to be a religious person or a member of the Church. This leads into a second point that I think gets a little confused in your mostly good post. Everyone is called to holiness, everyone is called to be a saint! There is another thread going on right now where one of our very own forum members is being proclaimed saintly. Anyway, I think it would be better to look at everyone called to holiness according to their own state of life. If you are married your holiness reaches the ultimate level of commitment when you love your spouse as Christ loves the Church, willing to sacrifice anything for her and remianing faithful and true in good times and bad, sickness and in health in imitation of Christ. For a priest their ultimate level of holiness is not so much found in just living celibate but rather loving as Christ loved in completely giving oneself in service of others and willing to lovingly sacrifice for them in imitation of Christ. The recent champion of this teaching of the Church was Blessed John Paul II who radically promoted what he called, "The Universal Call to Holiness".
Quote: FrGambleFirst of all and very important, not being gay is not at all a requirement to be a religious person or a member of the Church..
A conservative estimate is 1/3 to 1/2 of American priests
are Gay. Other estimates put it at 80%. In the 80's and 90's, deaths
among priests due to AIDS was at 4 times the national rate. The
number of Gay priests in Rome in at epidemic levels. They don't
even attempt to hide it anymore. The priesthood is referred to
as a 'Gay profession' among those on the inside. A well known
Cardinal recently said, off the record, that there would be no Catholic
Church if all the Gay's were removed. To most priests, celibacy means
not having sex with a woman. Having sex with a man is just dandy,
though.
You want to prove all this wrong, padre? Make me a liar. I can post
links upon links upon links that show its true now and has been true
for over a thousand years. In fact, a thousand years ago, getting
caught being Gay in the priesthood meant a slap on the wrist. It
was later, in the 13th and 14th centuries, that punishment was increased
because it was out of hand. Its an epidemic again, but now nothing
is being done about it.
Quote: NareedAs for celibacy, why don't other Christian sects demand it as well? Protestants in their myriad varieties don't, as far as I know, and neither do others like Anglicans and the Eastern Orthodox as far as I'm aware. This is more likely a peculiarity of the Roman church.
This I'm not entirely sure of (hell, I'm barely sure of my first post) but it's not incredibly uncommon in religion. Just go east. If you see a monk, chances are he's not having sex.
Quote: FrGambleFirst of all and very important, not being gay is not at all a requirement to be a religious person or a member of the Church
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply is was a deal breaker, just that it is frowned upon. Same as if you were a thief. You should try your best and pray on it to refrain from stealing, but if you slip up, you're not "out of the club". You just have to confess and go back to working on not doing it again. Isn't that the same attitude taken on homosexuality?
Thanks otherwise for the backup. Glad to see I'm learning something here =)
If you would like to do some reading on the current state of the priesthood here is a wonderful book: "Why Priests Are Happy: A Study of the Psychological and Spiritual Health of Priests" by: Stephen J. Rossetti
Here is a brief excerpt from a recent interview with the author:
ZENIT: What about celibacy? How does it relate to a priest’s happiness?
Monsignor Rossetti: This was also an interesting finding. Those priests who felt called by God to live a celibate life and who experienced celibacy as a personal grace, despite its challenges, were much more likely to be happy men. The correlation between this positive view of celibacy and priestly happiness was a strong r=.47.
The good news here is that over 75% of priests have found celibacy to be a positive part of their lives.
This percentage is likely to rise even higher in the future. It is the youngest priests who most strongly support mandatory celibacy.
So, contrary to a secular mentality, support for priestly celibacy will likely rise in the future among priests in the United States. It is disappearing as a “hot button” issue among priests in the United States.
But this is challenging. It is one thing to accept celibacy as a necessary part of a priest’s life, but it requires a much deeper level of spirituality to experience celibacy as a gift from God and a personal grace. It requires a depth of living that is profound.
As I sit back and reflect upon the findings of this study, I find myself inspired by the commitment and spiritual vitality of these priests’ lives.
This is the real truth underlying the findings of the study: Our priests are happy and holy men.
--- --- ---
Quote: rxwineDo you plan to get crucified eventually too? Christ did that.
If you mean die to the world or risk being martyred for my faith or skewered on an internet forum, than yes.
Quote: FrGambleI am disgusted by EvenBob's post. I will not be dragged into some sad discussion --- --- ---
That is really a wise move. There is so much out there on this subject
its almost unbelivable. The AIDS stat is well documented. The other
studies of Gay members in the clergy have been done for decades.
Its best to not speak of it, thats the Churches stand anyway... I didn't
bring it up before because we never discussed celibacy.
And regardless, sexual preference is becoming irrelevant across society; although the church sees it as sinful, more and more people consider it simply another aspect of a person's being.
Quote: Moscaalthough the church sees it as sinful, more and more people consider it simply another aspect of a person's being.
Thats all it is, an aspect. But with so many practicing Gay
preists, they should drop the celibacy thing entirely. They
say its none of our business, the Church handles its own
affairs. Thats fine, just don't be lecturing us on how to
live our lives when your own house is in such disorder.
Quote: FrGambleThanks Face, just have a few things. First of all and very important, not being gay is not at all a requirement to be a religious person or a member of the Church.
I beg to difer.
My understanding is that the Church does consider the practice of gay or lesbian sex to be sinful. So you are willing to accept gays and lesbians only if they're celibate. A restriction that is not placed on "normal" couples. If this is wrong, I welcome a correction.
Quote:Everyone is called to holiness, everyone is called to be a saint!
If the call came, it must ahve gone right to voice mail...
Quote:If you are married your holiness reaches the ultimate level of commitment when you love your spouse as Christ loves the Church, willing to sacrifice anything for her and remianing faithful and true in good times and bad, sickness and in health in imitation of Christ.
I don't get it. Jesús never married, so how can he be emulated in the context of a marriage as pertains to marriage? Not to mention your notion of sacrifice is just wrong.
Quote: SOOPOOFrG- "You will die if you do not have sex" is not how I interpret the 'pressures' of our 'saturated' world. Sex is the natural way we procreate, and is ingrained in all of us as a natural desire. Why, if you believe that God has given you that 'sex drive', that you would choose to ignore/suppress it, I can't understand. Why not choose to suppress your desire to eat? Or your desire to stay warm? The real world reality of celibacy has lead to many earthly problems that the Church will be paying for for decades to come. It is also interesting that there are many Christian faiths that do not believe in celibacy. I would also assume in the vow of celibacy there is implicitly included a part about not masturbating. If that is true, think how many (all?) priests take sacred vows and do not follow them? Your individual faith, FrG, is admirable. The organized religion you represent is not....
You should see how some of the high schoolers and college young adults respond when I get a chance to talk to them and they inevitably ask about celibacy. Some are so brainwashed they seriously have a hard time imagining it is possible to not express your afffection and love for people with genitals. Not to mention the sickening reality that people have what is called, "casual sex" where they pretend that this most intimate and sacred act doesn't really mean anything.
You bring up a good point in that the natural urge to procreate and have loving sex is a good thing. You cannot supress those desires, just like you cannot supress your desire to eat or stay warm. However you can control those desires and not be controlled by them. For example many monks eat only veggies and sometimes the Chruch asks us to fast or your doctor says cut out all donuts. You may want to go to a football game in December and realize that your desire to be warm won't be exactly as you hoped. The desire to love and be loved needs to be fulfilled, but you don't need the awesome donuts. First of all celibacy does not mean a lack of intimacy or love, we all need others we can share deeply the journey of life with. Again we must constantly remind ourselves that contrary to what the world tells us; Love does not equal sex. Secondly, the relationship with Jesus and Him alone can fill that need if we dedicate ourselves to Him in prayer. He is alive and real and desires to be in a loving realtionship with all of us.
It is good to remember that celibacy is not required by the Church for anyone. It is freely chosen as part of a vocation or call from God. I think every Christian denomination would respect a man or woman's desire to remain celibate for the Kingdom of God.
Finally, celibacy was not the problem that led to the scandals and sex abuse crisis in the Church. The priesthood is a healthy and holy place, full of men who have a healthy sexuality and a deep relationship with Christ. Again read the recent book "Why Priests Are Happy: A Study of the Psychological and Spiritual Health of Priests" by: Stephen J. Rossett or check out this link and read the most recent in depth study on the causes of the sexual abuse scandal, The Causes and Context of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests in the United States
Quote: FrGambleThe priesthood is a healthy and holy place, full of men who have a healthy sexuality and a deep relationship with Christ.
They are running out of native-born American priests.
Hello, importation from third world countries.
Quote: FrGambleThe priesthood is a healthy and holy place, full of men who have a healthy sexuality... Again read the recent book "Why Priests Are Happy:
A 'healthy sexuality'. Thats one way of looking at it,
I guess. 'Why priests are happy'.. This is too easy,
I won't even go there. I'm walking away, I'm taking
the high road...
I am disgusted by EvenBob's post. I will not be dragged into some sad discussion --- --- ---
Then good father, I respectfully suggest you go back to preaching to the choir. If you need affirmation of your beliefs, you will find it there !
:)Quote: Nareednot that a contradiction in the Bible is in any way surprising.
Um, who told you that? I've never heard that.Quote: FrGambleCelibacy is a counter wittness to the sex saturated world that wants you to believe you will die if you do not have sex.
I don't find that amazing at all. I think that is counter-human. And what's wrong with acting on our sexual desires? We're sexual beings. Why does religion always have to make sex be bad? Sex is wonderful.Quote: FrGambleSome find it amazing that someone can live without having sex or acting on our sexual desires.
Ok so now I'm walking around on earth without having sex and doing it for the relationship I have with an invisible person who lives up in the sky. Insane.Quote: FrGambleMost importantly celibacy shows the reality of the realtionship with Christ.
:)Quote: rxwineDo you plan to get crucified eventually too? Christ did that.
There is nothing wrong with casual sex. And how is sex the most intimate and sacred act? Intimacy is mental. So if a husband and wife have sex but they keep secrets from each other you're telling me they're being intimate?Quote: FrGambleNot to mention the sickening reality that people have what is called, "casual sex" where they pretend that this most intimate and sacred act doesn't really mean anything.
Um I don't remember hearing that either.Quote: FrGambleAgain we must constantly remind ourselves that contrary to what the world tells us; Love does not equal sex.
...smh...Quote: FrGambleSecondly, the relationship with Jesus and Him alone can fill that need if we dedicate ourselves to Him in prayer. He is alive and real and desires to be in a loving realtionship with all of us.
FrGamble, I didn't see a response in regards to the question brought up about masturbation. Does the bible say that masturbation is wrong?
This bible passage doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to "get it up" if you don't desire someone?Quote: RogerKintMatthew 5:28 Jesus says "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." So yes, the Bible says masturbation is wrong.
MAKES LESS SENSE THAN ORIGINAL SIN. NOW IT'S A SIN TO DREAM ?
Quote: HotBlondeDoes the bible say that masturbation is wrong?
Some guy named Onan chose to let his 'seed' hit
the ground rather than in his wife because he
didn't want her to get pregnant.
"It is better to cast your seed in the belly of a whore than to spill it on the ground."
This is really about coitus interruptus, not masturbation.
It was even called Onanism. Like somebody once said,
Onanism (masturbation) is a sin that takes hundreds of
hours of practice to get right. Most people are still practicing..
Yes, that's true, and I know of that quote. But that passage says that lusting and adultery is wrong. It doesn't really imply masturbation. If I watch a porno of a couple having sex and I masturbate to that how am I lusting or committing adultery? I'm not lusting after the guy or the girl but enjoying watching them mate. And why would lusting be bad anyway? Just cuz the bible says it is? I don't think there's anything wrong with desiring someone.Quote: RogerKintDidn't you say earlier in this thread or somewhere that you were raised a Christian then left it.
And ironically, as I mentioned in another thread, the turning point for me from being a Christian to a non-believer was watching Britney Spears giving a very sexy performance. I watched her and thought, "This is supposed to be bad? Look at her shaking her thang. You go girl!" And I realized that it was not wrong for me to own my sexuality. What a wonderful thing to be a woman and to feel comfortable with my sexuality. Why are we taught to be so hush hush about it? I don't flaunt it nor dress scantily and try to hump every guy I see. But I will enjoy sex just as much as a man and I would never, ever fake an orgasm. I am just fine receiving pleasure from a man and shouldn't have to feel bad about it.
Quote: HotBlondeAnd why would lusting be bad anyway? Just cuz the bible says it is? I don't think there's anything wrong with desiring someone.
You asked if the Bible taught that masturbation was wrong and I answered. Whether you believe if the Bible is true, or not, is up to you.
But that didn't answer why you think masturbation is a sin. Again, the passage talks about lusting and adultery, not masturbation. People can masturbate without lust being involved.Quote: RogerKintYou asked if the Bible taught that masturbation was wrong and I answered. Whether or not you believe if the Bible is true is up to you.
Quote: HotBlondeYes, that's true, and I know of that quote. But that passage says that lusting and adultery is wrong. It doesn't really imply masturbation. If I watch a porno of a couple having sex and I masturbate to that how am I lusting or committing adultery? I'm not lusting after the guy or the girl but enjoying watching them mate. And why would lusting be bad anyway? Just cuz the bible says it is? I don't think there's anything wrong with desiring someone.
And ironically, as I mentioned in another thread, the turning point for me from being a Christian to a non-believer was watching Britney Spears giving a very sexy performance. I watched her and thought, "This is supposed to be bad? Look at her shaking her thang. You go girl!" And I realized that it was not wrong for me to own my sexuality. What a wonderful thing to be a woman and to feel comfortable with my sexuality. Why are we taught to be so hush hush about it? I don't flaunt it nor dress scantily and try to hump every guy I see. But I will enjoy sex just as much as a man and I would never, ever fake an orgasm. I am just fine receiving pleasure from a man and shouldn't have to feel bad about it.
Now, this raises a thorny issue. Because you aren't actually masturbating to those people having sex... you are masturbating to a light projection, an IMAGE of people having sex. Are you lusting after them, or the idea of them?
My head hurts. I'm going to go do some field research.
Haha, I'm not sure how you would look at it. I watch it and imagine how good it feels for both of them.Quote: MoscaNow, this raises a thorny issue. Because you aren't actually masturbating to those people having sex... you are masturbating to a light projection, an IMAGE of people having sex. Are you lusting after them, or the idea of them?
My head hurts. I'm going to go do some field research.
Then you should change the question to "Does FrGamble think it's a sin to masturbate?" Since this isn't the middle ages and "normal" people are allowed to read and discover fallicies in the Bible for themselves, I thought I'd answer.Quote: HotBlondeI'm still curious to see what FrGamble has to say about this.
No I appreciate your input, and anyone else's. I was still just curious what he had to say about it.Quote: RogerKintThen you should change the question to "Does FrGamble think it's a sin to masturbate?" Since this isn't the middle ages and "normal" people are allowed to read and discover fallicies in the Bible for themselves, I thought I'd answer.
Quote: HotBlondeIf I watch a porno of a couple having sex and I masturbate to that how am I lusting or committing adultery? I'm not lusting after the guy or the girl but enjoying watching them mate.
More and more women are admitting they enjoy
watching porn. Where the heck were you when
I was 25?
Quote: HotBlondeBoy, for a thread that only has an average rating of 1.3 stars it's cool to see this made it into the Top Threads list.
It has everything. God, lust, sin, a priest, and now masturbating
women. Something for everybody.
