There Is No God
Quote: FrGambleAtheism sees this suffering but has no good response. It robs the suffering people of hope and as far as I understand does nothing to inspire others to serve. Every once and a while you hear noble sounding ideas that atheism makes us better appreciate the brief time we are alive and that we must just accept "reality" that there is nothing more.
No good response?
"I, too, felt ready to start life all over again. It was as if that great rush of anger had washed me clean, emptied me of hope, and, gazing up at the dark sky spangled with its signs and stars, for the first time, the first, I laid my heart open to the benign indifference of the universe. To feel it so like myself, indeed, so brotherly, made me realize that I’d been happy, and that I was happy still."
--- Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
Quote: MrVI laid my heart open to the benign indifference of the universe. To feel it so like myself, indeed, so brotherly, made me realize that I’d been happy, and that I was happy still."
--- Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
Thats stunning, I've not read that before. If it is
benign indifference, and we're all in the same
boat, whats wrong with that. Its comforting. A
lot more comforting than thinking I'm being judged
on every thought I have. Ick..
Quote: EvenBobI think the quote is, if god didn't exist, we would have invented him.
Voltaire is saying, "Let us accept that God exists. But what if he didn't? Well, we would have to invent him, because he is necessary for the individual / society, for whatever reasons. So then, if he DIDN'T exist, we would actually be living exactly the same way, believing in a God that is not there."
Quote: buzzpaffVoltaire is saying, "Let us accept that God exists. But what if he didn't? Well, we would have to invent him, because he is necessary for the individual / society, for whatever reasons. So then, if he DIDN'T exist, we would actually be living exactly the same way, believing in a God that is not there."
I think both sides could agree on that. Otherwise, what would explain all the different religions out there? Surely there must be something in our DNA compelling us to it. It is just a matter of whether we're right.
My point was that if we suppose for one minute that one day FrG lost his faith then he would be able to carry on his priestly duties, knowing that even blind faith is a good and comforting thing in a wicked world.
Quote: rainmanMy favorite bible quote, Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, because im the meanest s.o.b in the valley. :)
I thought that was the creed of the Marine Corps.
Quote: WizardWelcome back Father. I think you were missed by many, including me.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the way I interpret your comments above is, "Maybe the man in the sky doesn't exist after all, but humanity is better off with the illusion that he is." Maybe you're right, but I tend to doubt it. When one looks at all the wars and genocide done in the name of religion, I'll take the alternative.
Thanks Wizard I haven't had much time or comments to contribute lately. My homilies haven't been up to snuff or have been too specific to the needs of my parish to really warrant putting on my blog. I've been trying to keep up with things though and still enjoy reading all the good posts.
Yeah, I would say you may be reading too much into it, because I am most definitely not saying that God is only a helpful illusion. I am saying he is a real answer to human suffering that goes far beyond "benign indifference". The point you make about violence done in the name of religion is a good one. I think I have pointed out before that the last century was the bloodiest in all of human history and it was in my opinion mainly because of a turning away from religion. The alternative to religion and God is the most evil and anti-religious government sponsored genocide and war ever seen on the face of the earth. I'll take God over the horrors of what we have seen in recent memory done in the name of rejecting God and religion.
Quote: WizardI think both sides could agree on that. Otherwise, what would explain all the different religions out there? Surely there must be something in our DNA compelling us to it. It is just a matter of whether we're right.
My point was that if we suppose for one minute that one day FrG lost his faith then he would be able to carry on his priestly duties, knowing that even blind faith is a good and comforting thing in a wicked world.
I thought that was the creed of the Marine Corps.
Could be I had to have heard it some where. No wait isnt marine corp. semper fi?
Quote: FrGambleI'll take God over the horrors of what we have seen in recent memory done in the name of rejecting God and religion.
Good grief, FrG. What is that supposed to mean?
Quote: FrGambleThe alternative to religion and God is the most evil and anti-religious government sponsored genocide and war ever seen on the face of the earth.
So then, you support religion and the state being intertwined, i.e. religious government?
Hello, Iran!
And you despise the separation of church and state?
Ewwww ... America.
Your priorities are a bit ... skewed ...
I guess you could also have a benevolent dictator but these are hard to come by outside of Vatican City.
I am not a religious person - I have not, personally, felt the touch of God, or Jesus Christ, or Mohammed, nor do I have faith in the "scientists."
What I do believe is I am me. I am free to exercise my abilities to my betterment without undue interference from you. I do not exist on this Earth to benefit you, nor do I expect my happiness or comfort to be your burden.
For example, the universe: if it was created 14B years ago: what was before that?
Logically, time must have ALWAYS been existent.
Whoa.
Quote: MrVFor example, the universe: if it was created 14B years ago: what was before that?
There have been 5 universes before this one. Haven't you seen the Matrix movies?
We have one here is Las Vegas. His name is Roger Snow.
Not necessarily. Time is simply a measure of change. All things with which we measure that change exist inside of this Universe. (It's not clocks that appear to slow down as they approach the speed of light. It's the change that they measure.) Without a Universe, there is no change and thus no "before that" as far as we're concerned.Quote: MrVI will concede that there are some things which are unknowable.
For example, the universe: if it was created 14B years ago: what was before that?
Logically, time must have ALWAYS been existent.
Whoa.
I'm neither physicist nor cosmologist, but this just sounds impossible.
Everything, it seems to me, must have ALWAYS existed; I mean, how can the universe just go *poof* and then "Here I am."
Sort of a spin on the old "Which came first, the chicken or the egg" riddle.
Boggles the mind ... but not enough to make me reach for that old cop out, that old crutch, religion.
I just keep my mind and eyes clear and scan the world around me, seeing what is there to be seen, knowing what is there to be known.
Quote: MrVhow can the universe just go *poof* and then "Here I am."
like Endora on Bewitched, that's how...
always been here in one form or another.
Or that we have always been here in one
form or another. Science has proven nothing
can be destroyed, only converted to something
else.
We see the illusion of things being created and
destroyed, so we apply it to everything.
Back to God: Why are people that don't believe in God so determined to make sure that nobody believes in God? Why is that? Is it because they were molested by a preacher or is it because they were abused by someone?
who set out to destroy every indigenous culture on earth
with violent proselytizing.
if you want to believe in god, that's your business.
keep it out of my bedroom and out of my statehouse.
Quote: Oliver
Back to God: Why are people that don't believe in God so determined to make sure that nobody believes in God?
Where is that happening, exactly. At all those
atheist churches? At the atheist rally's? At all
'atheist only' clubs? You wouldn't even know
atheists existed if Xtions weren't so obsessed
with them.
Quote: OliverBack to God: Why are people that don't believe in God so determined to make sure that nobody believes in God? Why is that? Is it because they were molested by a preacher or is it because they were abused by someone?
Actually, that happens more than you know.
But it never happened to me; I was never an altar boy, and never spent time alone with a priest, except in the confession box.
No, my atheistic point of view developed in my mid-teens and crystalized in college.
Just blame it on sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll.
Quote: rainmanCould be I had to have heard it some where. No wait isnt marine corp. semper fi?
They at least say that in the movie Jarhead, which is a Marine movie. Here is the clip as evidence. "Semper fi" I believe is the official creed. The "valley" one is unofficial.
Philosophically, A god must necessarily be the most powerful and supreme being there is. If your god invention is not supreme, them that leaves wiggle room for someone elses god invention to be even more powerful than yours. Therefor, all gods must necessarily be dialed to 11 before you can imprint upon your god what it expects of you and everyone else.Quote: OliverIf there's indeed a multiverse, and life can evolve as we did, then why can't God? Wouldn't probability dictate that a God could also form?
If gods can evolve then they are not almighty to begin with, and that just makes for an inferior god.
If so, then: Who / What created god, if in fact god exists?
Quote: MrVAll things logically must have a cause, a moment of creation.
Must they? Quantum theory use effect then cause models. Quantum theory is logical, but it is not based on the axioms that you may consider to be common sense.
It's possible that things do not need a cause and the universe just always has been as a closed system (energy and mass neither created or destroyed). That's a rather left field theory in current cosmology. (Though by current, I mean last time I really looked hard was ten years ago, so maybe things have changed).
Quote:If so, then: Who / What created god, if in fact god exists?
Nothing. But who / what created the Universe if god in fact does not exist?
Quote: thecesspitBut who / what created the Universe if god in fact does not exist?
Indeed; that is the question.
It boggles the mind (*note: I'd much prefer to have my mind "boggled" by unanswered questions than "hobbled" by believing in god*)
Here's an article to make you think: "In New Quantum Experiment, Effect Happens Before Cause" - Nature
"A real-world demonstration of a thought experiment conducted at the University of Vienna, has produced a result that is somewhat befuddling to people with what the lead researcher calls a "naïve classical world view." Two pairs of particles are either quantum-entangled or not. One person makes the decision as to whether to entangle them or not, and another pair of people measure the particles to see whether they're entangled or not.
The head-scratcher is: the measurement is made before the decision is made, and it is accurate. "Classical correlations can be decided after they are measured," says Xiao-song Ma, the writer of the study. Entanglement can be created "after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist."
The finding can be integrated into potential quantum computers, one hopes. Causality, clearly, is a quaint, irrelevant concept." - Nature
Quote: MrVAll things logically must have a cause, a moment of creation.
Says who? People think they see a creation, so they
invent a creator. Very convenient.
Quote: Oliver
Here's an article to make you think: "In New Quantum Experiment, Effect Happens Before Cause" - Nature
"A real-world demonstration of a thought experiment conducted at the University of Vienna, has produced a result that is somewhat befuddling to people with what the lead researcher calls a "naïve classical world view." Two pairs of particles are either quantum-entangled or not. One person makes the decision as to whether to entangle them or not, and another pair of people measure the particles to see whether they're entangled or not.
The head-scratcher is: the measurement is made before the decision is made, and it is accurate. "Classical correlations can be decided after they are measured," says Xiao-song Ma, the writer of the study. Entanglement can be created "after the entangled particles have been measured and may no longer exist."
The finding can be integrated into potential quantum computers, one hopes. Causality, clearly, is a quaint, irrelevant concept." - Nature
Can anyone dumb this down so I might have a chance of understanding it?
Quote: CroupierCan anyone dumb this down so I might have a chance of understanding it?
You're not supposed to understand it, thats the point.
Quote: EvenBobSays who? People think they see a creation, so they
invent a creator. Very convenient.
Either it "is," or it "ain't."
Either it exists, or it doesn't.
So, if it "exitst:" where, when and how did it come into existence?
Quote: MrV
Either it exists, or it doesn't.
You don't know what existence is so you
can't make a statement like that. You're
going on assumptions.
Quote: EvenBobWhy is it so hard to believe the universe has
always been here in one form or another.
Or that we have always been here in one
form or another. Science has proven nothing
can be destroyed, only converted to something
else.
Science also has the Second Law of Thermodynamics that states processes taking place in a closed system always tend toward a state or equilibrium.
If the universe, the largest closed system, has always been here for infinity then why hasn't the universe not already reached equilibrium in what is often called the heat or cold death? It can't need more time if it is indeed infinite. There are lots of other absurdities that come into play when you think about an actual infinite, like you seem to be claiming the universe is.
Quote: MrVAll things logically must have a cause, a moment of creation.
If so, then: Who / What created god, if in fact god exists?
There is a small problem with your first premiss. Written the way you have it makes everything contingent or depending on something else which is not logical. There has to be something that is not dependent on anything else for its existence or else we fall into the absurdity of an infinite regress. Therefore the first statement should be more like this:
All things that begin to exist logically must have a cause.
Another way to put it would be: Everything that exists must logically have an explanation for its existence. Now this explanation for existence can only be one of two things; either it depends on something else, a contingent being, or it can be a necessary being that exists not dependent on anything or anyone else - its existence is part of its essence or being. This is sometimes called the unmoved mover, 1st cause, or God.
Obviously your second question is rendered moot because a necessary being is not created or have a cause but has its existence from itself. Again some cause is necessary to explain why there is something rather than nothing? As someone already stated something cannot come from nothing. The something from which everything comes from, pointed to in the big bang is what I call God. You inevitably will ask then where did God come from? You have to try and understand that a necessary being does not need to come from anywhere else, but is truly eternal, and is the bedrock foundation we need if existence or the universe is going to make any sense at all and not break those two logical statements that 1) everything that begins to exist must have a cause and that 2) something cannot come from nothing.
Quote: FrGamble
If the universe, the largest closed system,
You're assuming the universe is closed for the
sake of your argument. But:
"In the thermodynamic sense, a finite universe is usually presumed to be closed; so the entropy of the universe is "obviously" increasing. The thermodynamic closure of a static infinite universe is indeterminate. An expanding universe, whether finite or infinite, has an input of new space which makes it open in the thermodynamic sense."
Quote: EvenBobYou don't know what existence is so you
can't make a statement like that. You're
going on assumptions.
Cogito, ergo sum.
Quote: MrVCogito, ergo sum.
It should be, I think because I can.
Quote: FrGambleScience also has the Second Law of Thermodynamics that states processes taking place in a closed system always tend toward a state or equilibrium.
If the universe, the largest closed system, has always been here for infinity then why hasn't the universe not already reached equilibrium in what is often called the heat or cold death?
Not "always". Just "usually". The Second Law is statistical in nature, it just claims that high entropy state is more likely than the low entropy one, so, most of the time, the entropy will increase in a closed system. It does not make it impossible to spontaneously go down every once in a while.
BTW, the maximum possible entropy is not infinite. The upper limit on maximum entropy that can be enclosed in a region of space is proportional to the surface area of the boundary of that region. So, knowing that the Universe is expanding (and consequently the area of its boundary growing), one could speculate, that the entropy of the Universe as a whole is at its maximum at any given moment, yet keeps going up with time.
Quote:It can't need more time if it is indeed infinite.
Actually, there is virtually no doubt among the scientists, that the Universe as we know it has only existed for a finite time (about 14 billion years). The moment of its creation (Big Bang) was the spontaneous entropy drop like I described above, and entropy has been increasing ever since then.
Bottom line is you cannot debunk science with science, just like you cannot prove God does not exist using religion.
Quote: weaselmanjust like you cannot prove God does not exist using religion.
You also cannot prove god exists using religion.
That there is a mystery greater than us is obvious.
What it is, exactly, is, well, a mystery.
Quote: EvenBobThat there is a mystery greater than us is obvious.
What it is, exactly, is, well, a mystery.
Substitute "an unknown" for "a mystery," and I agree.
We simply do not know.
Yet.
Cause look...Turning water into wine, multiplyin' loaves, healing, raising the dead, coming back from the dead. That's not about faith at all. That's providing magic tricks for people to witness.
Nowadays, too many people want you to believe in their god without performing magic first. But even if they perform magic, they'd likely rather you not be able to study it too closely (that last is my assumption). 'Cause we surely would put you in a controlled environment if you want to claim special powers.
