There Is No God
Quote: victorimmatureYou may not be able to convince a theist that there is no God. But, you can, sure as hell, point out how absurd some of their crazy claims are.
That reminds me:
Quote:When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be
J. Michael Straczynski, through a Minbari leader in Babylon 5
Quote: FrGambleWhy or How do you or I exist if we didn't 'come' from somewhere or someone?
Quote: EvenBobThats the mystery, dude, thats the $64,000 question.
You needed an answer so you found one, or settled
for one. The rest of us are still asking, because 'faith'
isn't proof of anything..
Actually that is more like the simple buck fifty question. Logic 101 or common sense will get us to the point where we can see that we and all that exists had to come from somewhere. It doesn't take 'faith' to see this. The real million dollar question is once we use our reason and come to the point where there is an absolute beginning where do we go from there? Do we believe that some impersonal force created all that exisits or do we believe that some type of intellengent force, being, God, etc. had a hand in creation?
Like NowTheSerpent brings up you could try to argue for an eternally existing universe. That has been done before all the way at the beginning of philosophy with Anaximander in the 6th centuary B.C. However, I don't think that the universe always existing is a possibility though because you are talking about matter or things that always have a beginning. Everything that exists is dependent on something that came before it for its existence until you come to that absolute beginning ex nihilio. You could claim that the universe did not exist at one point and then it created itself somehow out of nothing. To me that would make the universe share much of the definition we have for God and you would be welcomed into the wonderful but problematic world of pantheism.
I think we need to trust in astrophysics that is proving more and more clearly that there was a big bang and the universe is expanding from that intial moment of creation out of nothing. The million dollar question is not is there a creator, that is fairly self-evident, it is what or who is the creator?
Quote: FrGambleLogic 101 or common sense will get us to the point where we can see that we and all that exists had to come from somewhere.
Logic says no such thing. YOU'RE logic see's it that
way, actual logic does not. Did you come from your
mother? Does that mean your mother 'created' you?
Quote: Mosca
As for proving that there is no god... do I have to prove that there are no fairies, no elves, no dragons? I think it is on the believers to provide evidence.
I don't think the universe is cyclical but this thread seems to be. I know we have covered this a couple of times.
The first piece of evidence for the belief in God could be the trillions upon trillions of people who from the beginning of humanity have had and testified to having real experiences of God. The vast majority of the population believes in God. I know it is pretty trendy to say something full of hubris like, "but I know better than all of them", but it seems like a pretty bold statement to make out of hand - unless of course you can provide conrete evidence that God does not exist that is. I have also heard people say that this is just testimony of people and not hard evidence. Far fewer people testified to you that your coffee was safe to drink this morning, but that did not stop you from drinking it. Fewer people have told you how deep the deepest part of the ocean is or that there is such a thing as a quark and you believe them without questioning. Anyway for some reason testimony of the majority of humanity does not count as evidence. Moving on - there is the fact that things exist. Where did this stuff come from, why is there something instead of nothing? Then, there are many miracles throughout history attributed to divine intervention all of which can of course be doubted or denied, but the sheer weight of them should account for something. Then we might want to include the unshakable feeling in most of our heart of hearts that there is a spiritual dimension to our lives, that there is more to life than meets the eye. A persistent gnawing that it would make sense that we would live forever and that things were created with an amazing amount of order. We can shake those moments off quickly however and we are left scrathing our heads and asking - what evidence can we offer towards God's existence?
Quote: FrGambleLogic 101 or common sense will get us to the point where we can see that we and all that exists had to come from somewhere.
Aristotelian logic, the best kind, makes a big deal of causes. I forget the terms for each kind of cause, but Aristotle admitted a final or ultimate cause, that is the cause of all causes so to speak. That is to say, there is one thing whence all things come from, directly or indirectly. Otherwise you get into paradoxes like infinte regress or circular logic.
Ok, in many cases we can track causes a long way back, but eventually we lose track as we recede in time. Perhaps this is unavoidable, perhaps time itself will yield to advances in science. We can't say. Yet.
Even so, there's nothing in logic that demands an entity as an ultimate cause, and much less god in particular (or even God if that makes you feel any better).
Quote:The real million dollar question is once we use our reason and come to the point where there is an absolute beginning where do we go from there? Do we believe that some impersonal force created all that exisits or do we believe that some type of intellengent force, being, God, etc. had a hand in creation?
You're letting your bias show. You are making the assumption that everything that exists was created.
Quote:Everything that exists is dependent on something that came before it for its existence until you come to that absolute beginning ex nihilio. You could claim that the universe did not exist at one point and then it created itself somehow out of nothing. To me that would make the universe share much of the definition we have for God and you would be welcomed into the wonderful but problematic world of pantheism.
Again, your bias is showing. Here you go further. Not only assuming a creation, but a creation by a sentient being. therefore if the Universe has always existed, then it must have created itself, and therefore it is god. Do I need to bring up Carl Sagan and Venus again?
Quote:I think we need to trust in astrophysics that is proving more and more clearly that there was a big bang and the universe is expanding from that intial moment of creation out of nothing. The million dollar question is not is there a creator, that is fairly self-evident, it is what or who is the creator?
I fail to see why there must be a creator, other than you keep insisting there must be one.
We know the Big Bang happened. We don't know why, or how long it took the pre-bang universe to "blow up," or what came before the pre-bang universe, if anything did. We may be in a cycle of an oscilating universe, or we may not. We don't know a great deal yet. To say science claims there must be a creator is to go well beyond the evidence.
BTW, as noted before, the existence of a creator does not settle the infinite regress problem.
Quote: FrGambleThe first piece of evidence for the belief in God could be the trillions upon trillions of people who from the beginning of humanity have had and testified to having real experiences of God. ?
First of all, people who do this for a living estimate
the number of people who ever lived on the planet
is about 100 billion, a far cry from 'trillions and trillions'.
And because you have an experience you don't understand,
doesn't mean it was god. People also see Bigfoot and the
Lochness Monster, does that mean they exist? Having
an unexplained experience isn't proof of anything.
Quote: FrGambleI don't think the universe is cyclical but this thread seems to be.
Not exactly, it's just moving in circles. Circular is not cyclical.
Quote:The first piece of evidence for the belief in God could be the trillions upon trillions of people who from the beginning of humanity have had and testified to having real experiences of God.
I don't think if you count every homo sapiens and neanderthalis who ever lived and died, plus those still living, you'll get to even half a trillion, let alone trillions upon trillions. The figure I've heard was around 100 billions. That's still a lot.
Quote:The vast majority of the population believes in God. I know it is pretty trendy to say something full of hubris like, "but I know better than all of them", but it seems like a pretty bold statement to make out of hand - unless of course you can provide conrete evidence that God does not exist that is.
Consider it said that "the truth is not a popularity contest."
Quote:I have also heard people say that this is just testimony of people and not hard evidence. Far fewer people testified to you that your coffee was safe to drink this morning, but that did not stop you from drinking it.
I may be the odd one out, but I know the manufacturer of my coffee. I've seen their lab analises of their raw amterials and finished product, and also of the overall cleanliness of their plants and machines. But if you want to get into an argument about why it's reasonable to think that commercially avaialble food is safe to eat, you should start a new thread.
Quote:Fewer people have told you how deep the deepest part of the ocean is or that there is such a thing as a quark and you believe them without questioning.
New thread. But those people have actual evidence.
Quote:Anyway for some reason testimony of the majority of humanity does not count as evidence.
Because it isn't. Item: eyewitness testimony is very unreliable. Item: most people's "testimony" about god is vague and highly subjective. Item: what about testimony from millions of epople, if not hundreds of millions, as to the effectiveness of astrology?
Quote:Moving on - there is the fact that things exist. Where did this stuff come from, why is there something instead of nothing?
See my previous post.
Quote:Then, there are many miracles throughout history attributed to divine intervention all of which can of course be doubted or denied, but the sheer weight of them should account for something.
It accounts for the prevlaence of wishful thinking.
Look. There's a number of epople who are infected with HIV but either show no symptoms or only mild symptoms, and no one knows why exactly. We can call each such person the receipent of a miracle, or we can research the factor or factors that allowed them to fight the virus off. Take your pick.
Quote: FrGambleActually that is more like the simple buck fifty question. Logic 101 or common sense will get us to the point where we can see that we and all that exists had to come from somewhere. It doesn't take 'faith' to see this. The real million dollar question is once we use our reason and come to the point where there is an absolute beginning where do we go from there? Do we believe that some impersonal force created all that exisits or do we believe that some type of intellengent force, being, God, etc. had a hand in creation?
Quote: FrGambleThe first piece of evidence for the belief in God could be the trillions upon trillions of people who from the beginning of humanity have had and testified to having real experiences of God. The vast majority of the population believes in God. I know it is pretty trendy to say something full of hubris like, "but I know better than all of them", but it seems like a pretty bold statement to make out of hand - unless of course you can provide conrete evidence that God does not exist that is. I have also heard people say that this is just testimony of people and not hard evidence. Far fewer people testified to you that your coffee was safe to drink this morning, but that did not stop you from drinking it. Fewer people have told you how deep the deepest part of the ocean is or that there is such a thing as a quark and you believe them without questioning. Anyway for some reason testimony of the majority of humanity does not count as evidence. Moving on - there is the fact that things exist. Where did this stuff come from, why is there something instead of nothing? Then, there are many miracles throughout history attributed to divine intervention all of which can of course be doubted or denied, but the sheer weight of them should account for something. Then we might want to include the unshakable feeling in most of our heart of hearts that there is a spiritual dimension to our lives, that there is more to life than meets the eye. A persistent gnawing that it would make sense that we would live forever and that things were created with an amazing amount of order. We can shake those moments off quickly however and we are left scrathing our heads and asking - what evidence can we offer towards God's existence?
For someone who claims logic, you sure seem to have hit all the logical fallacies in your next post. "Everyone says there is a God...." But with no evidence.
I have been provided with the evidence for quarks.
I have been provided with evidence of the deepest part of the ocean.
I have been provided with evidence that my coffee is safe.
Here is your logic:
Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches.
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: ...because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread.
Peasant 2: Apples.
Peasant 3: Very small rocks.
Peasant 1: Cider.
Peasant 2: Gravy.
Peasant 3: Cherries.
Peasant 1: Mud.
Peasant 2: Churches.
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
Peasant 2: ...A witch!
Your logic is self referential rhetoric.
Quote: MoscaYour logic is self referential rhetoric.
The good Fr has to get off the logic train,
it goes nowhere. You can't prove god exists
thru logic, its impossible. The whole point
of the Catholic religion is it depends on faith,
and belief and faith that the Bible is accurate.
One of Joseph Campbell's favorite stories is, he
was in a pool swimming with a Catholic priest
one day. When they finished and were drying
off, the priest asked, "Mr Campbell, what if
I could prove to you that god existed?"
To which Joe immediately replied "If you could
do that, Father, faith would be worthless."
He liked the story because the priest walked into
it and had nothing to say at Campbell's answer.
You can't have it both ways, proof and faith are
polar opposites.
Quote: EvenBob
You can't have it both ways, proof and faith are
polar opposites.
You go too far in this statement. John Paul II said that Faith and Reason are the two wings on which the human being can soar to new heights. Faith MUST be reasonable. It is beyond reasonable to believe that the universe has been created out of nothing, science pretty much proves this point, you don't need faith to understand this. Reason gets us to a point that allows faith to explore this fact further and discern who or what created all that exisits.
I love Monty Python as much as the next guy, but to me that hilarious scene Mosca quotes is more of a paradoy of science trying to figure out the spiritual than some type of illogical religious straw man. Science can gather the evidence for what floats or sinks or burns but becomes very foolish when it tries to apply those truths to make claims that are non verifiable such as, "Is she a witch?" or "Is there a God?" There is plenty of evidence or proof to get us to the brink of making a reasonable decision of Faith which moves us to a point where we believe in a God or gods.
Quote: FrGambleYou go too far in this statement.
Not at all. With proof, faith is worthless. And you only
need faith for lack of proof. Oil and water.
This is silly. That's like saying that faith allows us to explore why matter has mass because science has yet to discover the Higgs boson. You can't just make up stuff because the answer is too hard or inconvenient to figure out (and then dedicate your life to brainwashing others into the same lazy thinking). Okay, maybe you can but that doesn't make it right and it most certainly doesn't make it good.Quote: FrGamble..Reason gets us to a point that allows faith to explore this fact further and discern who or what created all that exists..
Quote: FrGambleJohn Paul II said that Faith and Reason are the two wings on which the human being can soar to new heights.
Oh, this is so appropriate, it's too bad there's no way to translate it to English: El Papa puede decir misa.
Quote:Faith MUST be reasonable.
If religious faith were reasonable it wouldn't be religious faith.
Quote:It is beyond reasonable to believe that the universe has been created out of nothing,
You keep repeating that. I can accept that you cannot conceive a universe that was not created but simply exists. But your failure to grasp something is not evidence.
science pretty much proves this point, you don't need faith to understand this. Reason gets us to a point that allows faith to explore this fact further and discern who or what created all that exisits.
Quote:Science can gather the evidence for what floats or sinks or burns but becomes very foolish when it tries to apply those truths to make claims that are non verifiable such as, "Is she a witch?"
Non verifiable my left foot:
1) Clarke's Law: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
2) What has the "accused" person done that can be verified?
3) Is there an alternate explanation for such things?
4) Is there any evidence of advanced technology?
See?
Besides, there is no evidence for magic, ergo no reason to believe there are such people as witches.
Quote:or "Is there a God?"
Easier: there is no evidence for creation, there is no evidence for the existence of supernatural beings of any sort. Ergo there is no reason to believe there is a such an entity as god.
Quote:There is plenty of evidence or proof to get us to the brink of making a reasonable decision of Faith which moves us to a point where we believe in a God or gods.
Can you spare some actual evidence from that plenty? Something other than assertions, polls or arguments.
In his book, "A Brief History of Time", Stephen Hawking tells an anecdote about John Paul II vs. Science in which after extolling the virtues of theoretical physics, JPII tells scientists to leave creation to the creator. Dr. Hawking didn't have the heart to tell JPII that is exactly what they were trying to discover.Quote: FrGambleThis is silly. Science is not even trying nor is it in its field of observation to discover who or what created the universe. They can prove there is an absolute beginning, but when there is nothing science can look at or observe a higher power has to take over. You cannot think that science will have all the answers because when it gets into theology it is just making stuff up or worse brainwashing people into thinking it has all the answers.
We do not know yet with any degree of certainty what 'caused' existence as we know it but it doesn't mean that we never will nor does it mean that we have to invent Flying Spaghetti Monsters to fill in the lacuna until such knowledge becomes available.
Quote: NareedBut your failure to grasp something is not evidence.
....
Non verifiable my left foot:
1) Clarke's Law: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
2) What has the "accused" person done that can be verified?
3) Is there an alternate explanation for such things?
4) Is there any evidence of advanced technology?
#1 actually goes exactly against your point. It's just a fancy way to say "you can't (dis)prove what you don't know".
Regarding #3, and $4, I am just curious, how you are planning to distinguish between lack of evidence (or explanation) and your inability to grasp (or find) it.
Quote: s2dbakerYou can't just make up stuff because the answer is too hard or inconvenient to figure out (and then dedicate your life to brainwashing others into the same lazy thinking). Okay, maybe you can but that doesn't make it right and it most certainly doesn't make it good.
It's called child abuse. The law needs to catch up with it.
Quote: NowTheSerpentIt's called child abuse.
It's also called superstition, and it has no place in the Modern World.
This is well documented. In The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.. I'll just link to it because Douglas Adams is a much better story teller than I am. Babel FishQuote: EvenBobNot at all. With proof, faith is worthless. And you only
need faith for lack of proof. Oil and water.
Quote: s2dbaker
{The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.}
LOL, good stuff. Vanishes in a puff of logic. I
have to remember that one for the next time
I want to win an argument with somebody.
Douglas Adams was a wise, wise man...
Quote: s2dbakerSpeaking of biblical relevance, the NonStampCollector just published a video on the Ten Commandments!!
The I Corinthians 13 video was even more of a bust!
I didn't see that one, funny!! The deity on the left is beefier, gimme $20 on him!Quote: MrV"Let's Get Ready To Rumble!!!"
rumble
Didn't Jesus make that happen with His magical wand?Quote: duffytootxEver hear of the Big Bang?
Rick Santorum just won Mississippi and Alabama. Mock not for you may suffer His wrath!Quote: MrVWasn't that the sound heard throughout the universe the moment Rick Santorum was conceived?
The people who know him best hate him most....pennsylvania
Not a single senator has endorsed him.
Obama's (wet) dream opponent...
Oh yeah the thread topic....I agree there is no god
Quote: s2dbakerRick Santorum just won Mississippi and Alabama. Mock not for you may suffer His wrath!
Rick Santorum Relieved No One Has Asked Him About Interracial Marriage Yet
LAFAYETTE, LA—Saying his campaign has "really dodged a bullet so far," Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum told reporters today that, much to his relief, no one has asked his opinion on interracial marriage. "No question about it, what I’d have to say about the topic would absolutely terrify anyone with a conscience," said Santorum, adding that his longstanding and carefully thought-through views on whether two individuals of different races should be allowed to marry would put him so far out of the mainstream that it’d be "hilarious how insane [he]’d sound." "The truth is, if anyone decided to ask me flat out if I approve of marriages between black men and white women, for example, the flood gates would open and the bile I would spew would sink this campaign in 10 seconds tops." As of press time, reports of Santorum’s mere reference to his incendiary views had caused his favorability ratings in Alabama and Mississippi to skyrocket.
Quote: odiousgambitSeems like the God-bashers want to explode the concept of God that is so extremely anthropomorphic, with white beard and all that. I would think very few of us here in this forum cling to such a thing. So it's 'creating a straw man' then ripping him to pieces.
I pretty much agree this is a useless thread.
This is why I think Philosophy is a useless discipline. Most of it is making arguments for or against the existence of a God or something else. All it is to me, is a bunch of debate and a waste of time. Yet there are people that seem to make careers out of it. It seemed sort of the science of Aristotle's day.. which is fine.. nowadays.. just a bunch of hot wind.
Quote: FrGambleHow we view ourselves, others, the world around us, and the reason for our existence is the foundation of everything we do. The atheistic philosophies of certain recent governments, or as some have already pointed out the deification of the state, has been the source of the greatest bloodshed and human suffering in history.
Father, you see what you want to see. And you know that you do it, which robs your statements of any power they may have held. It's not worth even going into, the bloodsheds and human sufferings that religions (not just Christianity) have brought to the planet; they are obvious to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of history, or who reads a headline today.
Perhaps it is part of who we are as a species. But for you to separate atheistic philosophies out is condescending, assuming that we are all children who know nothing; and deliberately disingenuous on your part, especially when your own church is so deeply involved in those sufferings, both over the past 2000 years and continuing to this very minute.
Quote: FrGambleThe atheistic philosophies of certain recent governments, or as some have already pointed out the deification of the state, has been the source of the greatest bloodshed and human suffering in history.
Was the Catholic Church around before 1900? (shhh, they don't want
to talk about it)
Quote: FrGambleThere have been war and human suffering brought about by religious strife as well, I don't know where I denied that (you have an ability to see what you want to see too). I was not being disingenuous. However, on a thread about there being no God I thought it fine to single out atheistic philosophies. Please also remember that I am responding to a specific post that recognized the value of philosophy in the past but thought that "nowadays" it was all "hot air". If you look "nowadays" you see that the vast amount of destruction, death, and suffering was indeed on the part of atheistic philosophies, even a cursory knowledge of history makes that obvious.
"The atheistic philosophies of certain recent governments, or as some have already pointed out the deification of the state, has been the source of the greatest bloodshed and human suffering in history." If that isn't singling out atheism, I don't know the definition of "singling out".
Quote: MoscaIf that isn't singling out atheism, I don't know the definition of "singling out".
The bully can always find a bigger bully
than himself to point to and divert the
attention in another direction.
victor stenger
Richard Dawkins Foundation
Quote: FrGambleHowever, I do hold that philosophy and theology is not a waste of time, in fact it may be the most important thing we think about and it effects everything we do.
You're half right: philosophy is not a waste of time.
*I think, therefore I gamble*
Happy Easter!!Quote: David ThorneDear Darryl,
I understand the importance the resurrection story holds in your particular religion.
If I too knew some guy that had been killed and placed inside a cave with a rock in
front of it and I visited the cave to find the rock moved and his body gone, the only
logical assumption would be that he had risen from the dead and is the son of God.
Once, my friend Simon was rushed to hospital to have his appendix removed and I
visited him the next day to find his bed empty. I immediately sacrificed a goat and
burnt a witch in his name but it turned out that he had not had appendicitis, just
needed a good poo, and was at home playing Playstation.
Someone probably should have asked "So the rock has been moved and he's gone...
has anyone checked his house?" I realise Playstation was not around in those days
but they probably had the equivalent. A muddy stick or something. I would have said
"Can someone please check if Jesus is at home playing with his muddy stick, if not,
then and only then should we all assume, logically, that he has risen from the dead
and is the son of God."
If we accept though, that Jesus was the son of an Infinite Being capable of anything,
he probably did have a Playstation. Probably a Playstation 7. I know I have to get my
offspring all the latest gadgets. God would probably have said to him, "I was going to
wait another two thousand years to give you this but seeing as you have been good...
just don't tell your mother about Grand Theft Auto."
Also, is it true that Jesus can be stabbed during a sword fight and be ok due to the
fact that he can only die if he gets his head chopped off?
Regards, David.
If you can give a good reason why this holiday deserves any respect, sure. Two thousand years ago some hippy declared himself a God and in the process managed to tee off enough people that he got himself executed and now we have to respect that? I will offer as much respect for Jesus as I would to Warren Jeffs who is also a prophet of God who, through no fault of his own, is actually still alive.Quote: NareedCan you guys give it a rest out of simple respect for a holiday?
You didn't pay attention in grade school, did you?Quote: QuadDeucesAs far as I know, science cannot explain how a bunch of lifeless elements spawned life.
