There Is No God

Quote: s2dbaker

Two thousand years ago some hippy declared himself a God and in the process managed to tee off enough people that he got himself executed

First of all, there were no hippies 2000
years ago. Secondly, right now some guys in
the Phillippines are getting themselves nailed
to crosses in support of Easter. If the religion
wasn't true, would they be doing that? I
don't think so....

Quote: WongBo

May I steal this artwork?

sure, i did...it was just lying around somewhere on the internets

Quote: s2dbaker

If you can give a good reason why this holiday deserves any respect, sure.

As it happens, I can: I usually get a day and a half off work due to this holiday. Sometimes, as this year, I get two days off.

Quote: Nareed

Can you guys give it a rest out of simple respect for a holiday?

Maybe about as much as I give Christmas.

Christmas: we worship a fat elf who burglarizes our homes, eats our carrots and cookies, drinks our milk, and deludes us into telling our kids that the gifts we buy them are really from him.

Easter: The celebration of a new evoloutionary path for rabbits, who now give birth by laying eggs as opposed to live birthing. And rather than nurture the eggs to allow more of this new breed of rabbit, we boil them, color them, and hide them.

What fools these mortals be.

Quote: s2dbaker

You didn't pay attention in grade school, did you?

So you're the one who can generate life from lifeless elements.

Quote: MrV

Maybe about as much as I give Christmas.

Look, not that it will do any good, criticism is one thing. Mockery is something else.

Despite the long, harsh arguments I've engaged in with our resident Catholic priest, FrGamble, we've developed a cordial, respectful relationship just the same. Now, questioning or criticizing a set of beliefs is, or can be, a useful intellectual exercise. It can be helpful in swaying people to your side, too, which is why I engage in such arguments. But mockery is crude and often times cruel as well. That will turn off people from your side rather than draw them in. What do you gain with that?

this is a thread called "there is no god".
i think mockery and disdain are perfectly acceptable here.
there are other threads if you want to celebrate easter.
i think you should let the atheists have their fun here.
just my opinion.

Quote: QuadDeuces

So you're the one who can generate life from lifeless elements.

Since you weren't paying attention in school, I'll provide this helpful condensed version that only lasts six and a half minutes, I think you can get through that.

Quote: Nareed

But mockery is crude and often times cruel as well. That will turn off people from your side rather than draw them in. What do you gain with that?

I have no "side," at least not in the sense that I care whether others agree with me.

There are billions of people; whether I can convince someone that Santa and the Easter Bunny do not in fact exist is of no importance to me.

I care only about perceiving reality in the correct manner; my posts help me focus my thoughts.

Mockery is employed as a tool in this endeavor, as a way to succinctly express myself and yes, have a bit of fun in the process.

But hey, happy easter.

Quote: MrV

Mockery is employed as a tool in this endeavor, as a way to succinctly express myself and yes, have a bit of fun in the process.

To quote myself "Not that it will do any good."

Quote: Nareed

To quote myself "Not that it will do any good."

"Free your mind, and your ass will follow:" -- Funkadelic

As for "mockery:"

UK Atheist

By posting this I am ruining it, but I found this humorous:

And very very SCARY !!!!

Quote: s2dbaker

Since you weren't paying attention in school, I'll provide this helpful condensed version that only lasts six and a half minutes, I think you can get through that.

Yeah, and at 4:28 he admits that it isn't life that was created.

And if only plants create oxygen, as he asserts in the beginning, then the presence of oxygen on Mars proves plant life on Mars.

Gee, there's molecular oxygen in the atmosphere of Venus, too. Plant matter there as well?

Quote: QuadDeuces

Yeah, and at 4:28 he admits that it isn't life that was created.

And if only plants create oxygen, as he asserts in the beginning, then the presence of oxygen on Mars proves plant life on Mars.

Gee, there's molecular oxygen in the atmosphere of Venus, too. Plant matter there as well?

I'm sure that in this condensed version, Carl Sagan left out irrelevant minutia in the interest of keeping his program an hour in length. Mars does have molecular Oxygen in its atmosphere, 0.13% to be precise. Meaning that 13 molecules out of 10,000 are Oxygen. That's great lottery odds but I wouldn't try to survive on that. As for Venus, it's even worse. Perhaps Earth did have trace amounts of molecular Oxygen back in the day but Sagan's point is that the original stuff of life did not come from it.

Carl Sagan admits that no creatures have emerged from test tubes yet but, "We have only been at such experiments for 30 years. Nature has had a 4 billion year head start". Today, scientists are manufacturing gene splices to make mice more human-like for testing drugs. I think we're catching up to nature much faster than even Carl Sagan anticipated.

Quote: QuadDeuces

As far as I know, science cannot explain how a bunch of lifeless elements spawned life.

And now, you know.

Quote: JB

By posting this I am ruining it, but I found this humorous:

We should start another thread called, "What Are the Odds of This Happening?" since if anyone can answer that, it's you and Wizard.

Quote: NowTheSerpent

We should start another thread called, "What Are the Odds of This Happening?" since if anyone can answer that, it's you and Wizard.

Threads with >665 posts/total threads?

Sagan said only plants create oxygen. Period. And there couldn't have been any oxygen on Earth before Life because there, of course, were no plants. If you're saying he's over-simplifying what it would take to "create life" I think that's an understatement. If you want to point to a PBS video to make a point, it should make the point. All I saw is someone taking lifeless gas and making lifeless goo.

Quote: s2dbaker

Perhaps Earth did have trace amounts of molecular Oxygen back in the day but Sagan's point is that the original stuff of life did not come from it.

What I heard was Sagan saying that oxygen could not have existed and had hampered previous attempts at the same sort of lifeless-goo-making experiments. All they got was "smog".

Quote: s2dbaker

And now, you know.

I'd know if I took it on faith. Let me know when someone creates life out of lifeless elements.

Quote: progrocker

Threads with >665 posts/total threads?

Which is currently 3/9362 = 1 in 3120.666...

Quote: QuadDeuces

Let me know when someone creates life out of lifeless elements.

Tell you what, I'll let you do that for yourself.

Quote: QuadDeuces

Sagan said only plants create oxygen. Period. And there couldn't have been any oxygen on Earth before Life because there, of course, were no plants. If you're saying he's over-simplifying what it would take to "create life" I think that's an understatement.

It's inaccurate.

Oxygen has always existed in this planet since it was a planet. But oxygen is a very reactive element. Absent other elements, it will react with other oxygen atoms and form O2 molecules. In fact, Oxygen is one of the most common elements on Earth and has always been.

What can't exist easyly is free oxygen. That is O2 molecules in alrge quantities. The O2 molecule is still very reactive, as the bond between oxygen molecules isn't particularly strong. So it combines with other elements easily. For isntance, it combines with hydrogen to form water, it combines with iron to form rust, etc.

In our planet's early history, much of the atmospheric oxygen was bound to Carbon atoms, forming CO2 (carbon dioxide). Plants break down that and release free oxygen (in O2 form), in large quantities.

As yet there is no other known natural mehcanism for producing free oxygen in large quantities. So scientists think that the presence of free oxygen in large amounts in a planet's atmosphere are a marker for plant life, or for photosynthetic life at any rate.

Nitrogen is actually more itneresting. It, too, reacts easyly, but the N2 molecule is very stable. So stable, in fact, that it can be used to extinguish fires. The four basic atoms necessary for life are Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen and Nitrogen. All are easy to come by, for plants, except Nitrogen. Plants can't get any from the atmosphere, even though it makes 78% of it. They rely in nitrogen-fixing organisms in the soil instead. Animals and people get theirs from organic molecules made by plants, or by animals who eat plants.

A great scholar once said "If you know what it is worth, you will make heaven a place on earth".

Does god live in a cancer cell"

How about a herpes virus?

Ebola?

These things notwithstanding, the world is eerily beautiful; there's no need to interject the notion of "god" into the mix.

Just kick back and enjoy the ride: there's no "do overs."

Nobody can answere this question. Its impossible however i suppose the answere may be reavealed to us upon are death.

Quote: rainman

Nobody can answere this question. Its impossible

If your question is: "Is there a god?": you just answered it.

"Its (sic) impossible."

Man look how terrible my spelling is in the above post I thought I was getting better. How disappointing.

I dont have question weather god exists or not. I have the answere and that is nobody knows period. xD

Quote: rainman

Man look how terrible my spelling is in the above post I thought I was getting better. How disappointing.

I dont have question weather god exists or not. I have the answere and that is nobody knows period. xD

Do you believe that there is a china teacup orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars? If not, then prove it!

Quote: Wavy70

A great scholar once said "If you know what it is worth, you will make heaven a place on earth".

Belinda Carlisle?

Quote: s2dbaker

Do you believe that there is a china teacup orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars? If not, then prove it!

No sir im not sure of any man made objects that orbit the sun :) That could probably be proven. My point is simply this, no bible thumper has ever proven to me that there is a god. But on the other hand no nay sayer has ever proven to me there isnt. Both sides say they know the truth but none ever prove it. I will find out when I die.

Obviously you find some form of comfort and personal satisfaction by believing in god; fine, have at it.

Just don't try to proselytize an atheist: we just snicker and dismiss offhandedly.

Quote: rainman

I will find out when I die.

Why do people always assume that dead people
are smarter than the living.

Quote: MrV

Obviously you find some form of comfort and personal satisfaction by believing in god; fine, have at it.

Just don't try to proselytize an atheist: we just snicker and dismiss offhandedly.

what about my post gave the idea I was a believer? I think it clearly states im niether believer nor non believer

Now to Mr. Evenbob Im simply stating that in the belief of god, religion states that if you dont know god your gonna know him when you die.
Do I know he exists? hell no but if he does thats apperantly according to religion when im gonna find out. If I croak tomorrow I will ask if i can come back as a ghost to try and let you know. I would try angel status but im pretty sure that would be out of the question. :)

Quote: rainman

I will ask if i can come back as a ghost

God doesn't grant favors now, why would he after you
die. If you talk long enough to religious people, they
have all these fantasies about what happens after you
die.

Quote: EvenBob

God doesn't grant favors now, why would he after you
die. If you talk long enough to religious people, they
have all these fantasies about what happens after you
die.

Bob how do you know god dont grant favors? You holdin something back? perhaps you know him? :)

Quote: rainman

what about my post gave the idea I was a believer?

Your comment that "I will find out when I die" was proof.

An atheist realizes that "you" cease to exist at death, therefore "you" can and will "find out" nothing.

Obviously, you employ the crutch of FAITH.

Quote: MrV

Your comment that "I will find out when I die" was proof.

An atheist realizes that "you" cease to exist at death, therefore "you" can and will "find out" nothing.

Obviously, you employ the crutch of FAITH.

Crutch of faith no sir. The crutch of optimism perhaps. Again i say nobody can tell me there is a god as well as nobody can tell me there isnt. The athiests dont know nor do the believers. it seems as if both are always trying to convince there side is right.

The believer is perhaps playing a slot machine with a jackpot he is likely not to hit but still he believes a chance exists. Therefore he feels optimistic. the atheiest is playing that same slot without the avalibility of the jackpot. The name of the slot incase anyone wants too play is life.

Quote: rainman

The believer is perhaps playing a slot machine with a jackpot he is likely not to hit but still he believes a chance exists. Therefore he feels optimistic. the atheiest is playing that same slot without the avalibility of the jackpot. The name of the slot incase anyone wants too play is life.

That is a ridiculous bit of poorly thought out drivel.

Why would you possibly conclude that I, an avowed atheist, would therefore be less "optimistic" than someone who believes in god and the afterlife?

That dog won't hunt, rainman.

My lack of belief in god and the notion of an afterlife causes me to focus on the here and now, to BE HERE NOW.

I am a happy man.

I've never taken antidepressants, or even been more than momentarily distressed or unhappy.

Pangs of existential angst have not paralyzed me.

All is right in my world.

God has nothing to do with it; I control my own destiny.

Again sir im not arguing for one side or the other.AS I my self sit on the fence swaying back and forth depending on what day it Is . Im not saying a believer has a better happier life then an atheist. that would be stupid. Maybe im just saying hey I like life So much so that it appeals to me on occasion to hope there is more after this one. It feels better to me than thinking one day its over for good.

I feel as if you took my above post as a personel attack upon your beliefs. It was not. Today I may sound like a believer but thats today tomorrow I may sound like a non believer. You see sir many times I have declared the fact that I dont not have the answere to the existance or non existance of god in these posts. What is odd to me is that atheists and believers alike all profess they do. If we are to be honest niether side really knows. They just believe.

Would you agree that the probability of there being a god and an afterlife as portrayed in the bible is greater than one million to one, against?

Closer to 50 / 50?

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: rainman

I will find out when I die.

Why do people always assume that dead people are smarter than the living.

That is not the assumption here.
The assumption is that you will find out where you go, without regard to IQ score, just as we find ourselves on earth. You find out whether you like it or not.

Quote: Paigowdan

That is not the assumption here.
The assumption is that you will find out where you go, without regard to IQ score, just as we find ourselves on earth. You find out whether you like it or not.

The original assumption, "There is no god," assumes to the contrary.

Belief in an afterlife is rooted in fear.

Atheists do not necessarily fear death and the resultant end of all things; it is an accepted inevitability.

The question about God's existence is not impossible. Maybe if you think the only acceptable source of truth comes from the scientific method then you might find the question nonsense, but really nobody truly thinks like that. If you "believe" in logic, the possibility of the transcendent or the supernatural, and the value of personal experience then knowing God exists is very possible. Of course you can attempt to use logic, deny there is nothing more than what we can see and observe, and use personal experience to say that God does not exist. To this I would snicker, but I would also commend us all for using our brains to try to answer the most important question out there.

It is a cop out and a little bit lazy to just throw up our hands and say the question is impossible and no one is right. Someone is right and using our God-given (opps, did I just give the answer away) abilities we can come up with an answer. The afterlife is NOT rooted in fear but the refusal to look at this issue with our minds and hearts to come up with an answer seems like we may be a little afraid, as Jesus said, "Be not afraid!"

one would think that if there were an all-powerful god,
he would be able to compel action on the fact that
six million children die of starvation every year.
i would say that if there is a god, he would be indifferent at best,
and more likely, actively abetting human suffering.
why would you bow down and worship such a malevolent force?

Quote: WongBo

i would say that if there is a god, he would be indifferent at best,

In the movie thriller Constantine, the main character
says "God is a kid with an ant farm." Meaning, yeah,
he is god, but he really doesn't care much about what
those under him do every day. And Mark Twain said:
"The biggest joke on mankind is he thinks god sits up
nights worrying about him."

Quote: WongBo

one would think that if there were an all-powerful god,
he would be able to compel action on the fact that
six million children die of starvation every year.
i would say that if there is a god, he would be indifferent at best,
and more likely, actively abetting human suffering.
why would you bow down and worship such a malevolent force?

This would be a good example of the old there is evil and suffering so there is not an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God. While not logical it is a powerful argument against God's existence. The reason it is not logical is that the existence of evil does not necessarily mean that God is not all powerful, all knowing and all loving. It leaves open such possibilities that God would freely limit His power in order to respect our freedom to misuse our free will to unfairly distribute food and natural resources and/or consume too much. It also remains possible that we don't understand everything and that because we are without a doubt not all-knowing we might not be in the best position to make the judgement call that God doesn't know what He is doing. Finally, an all loving God would most certainly not allow the suffering of children to get the last word. With an all loving God we hold out the hope that the banquet feast of Heaven is filled with the full and content children of the world who unjustly did not have enough in this world.

Now, this is only to say that the reality of suffering and evil is not absolute proof that God does not exist. However, could we not in turn use the same example of six million suffering children to make us hope even more fervently that there is a God? What is WongBo or atheism saying to us as an answer to the problem of suffering? God sees this suffering and inspires us to get to work to correct this wrong. We can only guess at what the number of starving children would be if there weren't countless Christian and inter-religious outreach centers providing food and care to the hungry. God also gives to those who are starving and those who are serving the gift of hope that their suffering will one day end and give way to joy and eternal happiness. Some will say this is "pie in the sky" wishful thinking or a crutch. Well then I would say that the idea there is no God is a "mudpie in the dirt" sad thinking or a torture device. Atheism sees this suffering but has no good response. It robs the suffering people of hope and as far as I understand does nothing to inspire others to serve. Every once and a while you hear noble sounding ideas that atheism makes us better appreciate the brief time we are alive and that we must just accept "reality" that there is nothing more. I find that a terribly cold and heartless thing to say to a starving child or the parents. Could not reality be just as easily accepted as being a brief time in which we can try to do good and loving acts that will echo through eternity and that after this life in an imperfect world we wake up to the joy of eternal life in the perfect world we all long for?

Quote: FrGamble

as Jesus said, "Be not afraid!"

"Come on baby don't fear the reaper." --- Blue Oyster Cult

Quote: FrGamble

Atheism sees this suffering but has no good response. It robs the suffering people of hope and as far as I understand does nothing to inspire others to serve. Every once and a while you hear noble sounding ideas that atheism makes us better appreciate the brief time we are alive and that we must just accept "reality" that there is nothing more. I find that a terribly cold and heartless thing to say to a starving child or the parents. Could not reality be just as easily accepted as being a brief time that we have to do as much good and loving acts that will echo through eternity and that after this life in an imperfect world we wake up to the joy of eternal life in the perfect world we all long for?

Welcome back Father. I think you were missed by many, including me.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the way I interpret your comments above is, "Maybe the man in the sky doesn't exist after all, but humanity is better off with the illusion that he is." Maybe you're right, but I tend to doubt it. When one looks at all the wars and genocide done in the name of religion, I'll take the alternative.

Quote: Wizard

"Maybe the man in the sky doesn't exist after all, but humanity is better off with the illusion that he is."

I think the quote is, if god didn't exist, we would have invented him.