There Is No God
Quote: MrVJust as there is no positive expectation in craps, so is there no God in this world.
We're it, baby.
Works for me.
see ... PennJillette
Every person has their own god, little g, of course. Works for everyone., even Bill Maher.
Quote: MrVJust as there is no positive expectation in craps, so is there no God in this world.
We're it, baby.
Works for me.
see ... PennJillette
Every person has their own god, little g, of course. Works for everyone., even Bill Maher.
Quote: MoscaOh come on. Surely you are not advocating sharia, are you? It sure reads that way. Because if you are, I think EvenBob has covered the Catholic side of that territory fairly comprehensively, when he brings up the Inquisition.
You have raised a specious argument and I'm surprised you've gotten away with it so far. But since you brought it up, let's put the misery of women across the world on the "belief in God" side of the ledger, the total subjugation of half of humanity in the Arab world. Let's put the destruction of the native American cultures on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the Inquisition on the "belief in God" side. Let's put American slavery on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the Israeli/Palestinian conflict on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the second class (or criminal, in most of the world) status of everyone who is not heterosexual on the "belief in God" side. Let's put the war against medical research on the "belief in God" side.
I could go on... should I stop here, or would you like more examples?
My cursory read of history is going to say that I don't really see anything particularly convincing here, about believing in god making the world better, seeing as how it is used to justify so much misery.
I am surely not advocating sharia and I don't see where you would get that from my post. I'm an American and I am kind of partial to our government's way of handling church and state issues. My post was about the horror that is governments that proclaim themselves atheist.
Your argument is not only specious, but subjective as well. I wonder where these miserable women who believe strongly in God would rather live, in countries that we hope continue to more fully recognize their equal dignity over time or those states who decide to kill them outright for their belief in God. Your broad and careless strokes across history are not so easy to just completely place as you so crudely say, "on the 'belief in God' side of the ledger". Speaking specifically in a Christian context any discrimination for any reason is rejected including sexual orientation. Also again you are incorrect, in Christianity there is no war against ethical medical reasearch.
Your very cursory and one sided read on history and distortions of at least the Christian world view is also not convincing. Maybe it would be worth while to think that while these governments who do not believe in God have nothing in their constitutions, founding documents, philosophy, or history that would give them any pause in their mistreatment of others this is often not true in religions, especially in Christianity. If the program of these atheistic states is followed to a tee it is disaster, if the program of Jesus Christ is followed to a tee it is Heaven on earth. Gladly the latter program is not followed sadly the former program is not either.
Quote: FrGamble[..]if the program of Jesus Christ is followed to a tee it is Heaven on earth.
Oh, Europe tried that once. We call it the Dark Ages.
Quote: NareedOh, Europe tried that once. We call it the Dark Ages.
And the Middle Ages. It has been tried, for a thousand
years, and it failed miserably.
Quote: FrGambleI am surely not advocating sharia and I don't see where you would get that from my post. I'm an American and I am kind of partial to our government's way of handling church and state issues. My post was about the horror that is governments that proclaim themselves atheist.
Your argument is not only specious, but subjective as well. I wonder where these miserable women who believe strongly in God would rather live, in countries that we hope continue to more fully recognize their equal dignity over time or those states who decide to kill them outright for their belief in God. Your broad and careless strokes across history are not so easy to just completely place as you so crudely say, "on the 'belief in God' side of the ledger". Speaking specifically in a Christian context any discrimination for any reason is rejected including sexual orientation. Also again you are incorrect, in Christianity there is no war against ethical medical reasearch.
Your very cursory and one sided read on history and distortions of at least the Christian world view is also not convincing. Maybe it would be worth while to think that while these governments who do not believe in God have nothing in their constitutions, founding documents, philosophy, or history that would give them any pause in their mistreatment of others this is often not true in religions, especially in Christianity. If the program of these atheistic states is followed to a tee it is disaster, if the program of Jesus Christ is followed to a tee it is Heaven on earth. Gladly the latter program is not followed sadly the former program is not either.
So, Muslims don't believe in God, then? Go ahead, defend the treatment of women in the Arab world, explain how they are so much better because of "belief in God".
"Broad and careless strokes"... look in the mirror, pal. You picked the brush size.
Quote: MoscaSo, Muslims don't believe in God, then? Go ahead, defend the treatment of women in the Arab world, explain how they are so much better because of "belief in God".
"Broad and careless strokes"... look in the mirror, pal. You picked the brush size.
I admit it is a broad stroke but what I said is this, "This state sponsored atheism has lead to more death, torture, persecution, and destruction than in any other century." You can try and defend the treatment of believers at the hands of these atheistic states, but I don't think you can reasonably deny the statement. I'd like to hear some explaination as to how they went against their "belief in atheism" when these atheist governments killed, displaced, and treated as second class citizens so many millions of people.
logic. You're erroneously assuming that the
lack of something always means an overabundance
of something else. You're assuming that because
a country lacks an official religion and calls
itself atheist, that its completely lacking in decency
and morality, because we all know its only possible
to act decently if we're a slave to a religion.
Quote: FrGambleI admit it is a broad stroke but what I said is this, "This state sponsored atheism has lead to more death, torture, persecution, and destruction than in any other century." You can try and defend the treatment of believers at the hands of these atheistic states, but I don't think you can reasonably deny the statement. I'd like to hear some explaination as to how they went against their "belief in atheism" when these atheist governments killed, displaced, and treated as second class citizens so many millions of people.
What you wrote was this, and I quoted it in my post (I included your entire quote in my reply, not just the cherry-picked part):
Quote: FrGambleHistory clearly shows us that belief in God makes a big difference in making the world a better place. Take a look at what has happened in this last century in regards to governments who rejected belief in God - it is not a pretty picture. This state sponsored atheism has lead to more death, torture, persecution, and destruction than in any other century.
And then you followed it with your quote from above, which led to my noticing that you implied a preference for sharia. When you follow one statement with another, it's assumed that you mean the two to connect. Sharia meaning ANY religion-based government. Do I think you really mean that? No, but I think that if you were born into it you would defend it. I don't think you could reason outside that box.
History does not clearly show us that belief in God makes a difference in making the world a better place. If anything, history shows us that belief in God clearly does not make a difference in making the world a better place. History does show us when you take that belief in God to an institutional and governmental level, the atrocities compound accordingly; witness my rebuttal evidences.
And the progression of this discussion shows us that your defense of your position gets more and more tenuous as it gets farther and farther from the stance of pure belief. Your strongest argument is based on pure faith. Your weakest arguments are anything historical or fact-based. If you hand me the ammunition to shoot your facts down, I'll take it, assuming I maintain enough interest to do it; that's an awful lot of work for an internet discussion forum where the outcome of the thread is totally irrelevant to my life.
Quote: Moscathat's an awful lot of work for an internet discussion forum where the outcome of the thread is totally irrelevant to my life.
Also, you know how this will end, right where
it began. I had these discussions 40 years ago,
I can't believe I'm having them again. Whats
the point.
Quote: Mosca
History does not clearly show us that belief in God makes a difference in making the world a better place. If anything, history shows us that belief in God clearly does not make a difference in making the world a better place. History does show us when you take that belief in God to an institutional and governmental level, the atrocities compound accordingly; witness my rebuttal evidences.
And the progression of this discussion shows us that your defense of your position gets more and more tenuous as it gets farther and farther from the stance of pure belief. Your strongest argument is based on pure faith. Your weakest arguments are anything historical or fact-based. If you hand me the ammunition to shoot your facts down, I'll take it, assuming I maintain enough interest to do it; that's an awful lot of work for an internet discussion forum where the outcome of the thread is totally irrelevant to my life.
History shows us very clearly in this just our very own last century that the atrocities committed by governments that expressed atheist beliefs are unprecedented in their evil and destruction of human life. I do not believe in theocracies either and they too are bad ideas (as history shows), but just looking at the facts, the history, the people, and the numbers - state atheism seems to me a worse system. Yes, I also am too lazy and disinterested to go digging around to do too much research about it. Your strongest arguments are based on your own perspective and I guess mine are too, however when we look at history and facts they bear out my earlier point and reject yours. I think you have either been handed blanks for ammo or are shooting at a different target than I am.
Quote: FrGambleHistory shows us very clearly in this just our very own last century that the atrocities committed by governments that expressed atheist beliefs are unprecedented in their evil and destruction of human life. I do not believe in theocracies either and they too are bad ideas (as history shows), but just looking at the facts, the history, the people, and the numbers - state atheism seems to me a worse system.
I think you're examining the wrong dichotomy. State-sponsored atheism vs. state-sponsored theocracy is a distinction without a meaningful difference, since atheism is still a religious belief. Regardless of whether the government espouses an affirmative or negative belief in divinity, espousing that stance *at all* is a far worse situation than keeping the State out of the matter altogether. Freedom from government interference in religious belief -- whatever that belief may be -- is the fundamental premise of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause and has been upheld by the Supreme Court as recently as 1994 in BOARD OF EDUCATION OF KIRYAS JOEL VILLAGE SCHOOL DISTRICT v. GRUMET. Therein, Justice Souter wrote: "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."
Favoring one religious belief over another by official government decree or action, regardless of the nature of the belief, is just opening up a can of worms.
Quote: FrGambleHistory shows us very clearly in this just our very own last century that the atrocities committed by governments that expressed atheist beliefs are unprecedented in their evil and destruction of human life.
I should explain something I said before. Communist governments indeed supress religion and encourage or force the idea that there is no god. This is evident. But they also supress a lot of other things, like liberty, reponsibility, speech, etc. So to begin with your comparison is flawed by assuming only the religion vs no religion variable is involved.
Next, Communist governments rely on faith and worship as much as any religion does. Substitute god for the state, or the masses, or the proletariat, and you can clearly see what I mean. Worship is less clear, since it can be the worship of a leader (alive or dead), or a more general, amorphous worship of the state. But it's there. Therefore calling them atheistic is missleading at best. They have a god, a route to salvation and even a messianic event they're waiting for, just not those usually associated with traditional Western religions.
Much of the same goes for fascist regimes, except the only one to truly integrate it all was Nazi Germany. And we should be thankful it was the only one. Incidentally, the Nazis dind't quite supress religion, even adopting unofficially the old Prussian military motto "God is With Us." Notionally this motto was part of the German army, not the Nazi regime, but it spread a lot wider than just the military.
Quote:I do not believe in theocracies either and they too are bad ideas (as history shows), but just looking at the facts, the history, the people, and the numbers - state atheism seems to me a worse system.
Good for you for not favoring theocracy. Do I take it to mean you favor a separation of church adn state, whatever the church may be?
But as I've demosntrated, there are no regimes with state mandated atheism. Quite the contrary.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Quote: EvenBob�I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.� �You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.�
Friedrich Nietzsche
The praising is how you acknowledge that you are under the control of the clergy.
That's why they want you turning up every week.
It has got nothing to do with worshipping some God.
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Quote: FrGamble“I would believe only in a God that knows how to dance.”
¯ Friedrich Nietzsche
"The math suggests in a few of them [parallel universes] I'm a clown made of candy. But I don't dance."
-- Dr. Sheldon Cooper
So we know Sheldon Cooper is not god, in any universe :P
Quote: victorimmatureThe praising is how you acknowledge that you are under the control of the clergy.
Of course. Its the clergy that needs the praise in
every religion. If there was a god, what on earth
would he need praise for. Its only good if you have
an ego, and god would have none. How could he?
Quote: EvenBobOf course. Its the clergy that needs the praise in
every religion. If there was a god, what on earth
would he need praise for. Its only good if you have
an ego, and god would have none. How could he?
Exactly, if God is omniscient, He knows what you are thinking anyway.
You don't have to act it out.
All powerful and ever living God,
you have no need of our praise
yet our desire to thank you is itself your gift.
Our praise of thanksgiving can add nothing to your greatness
but helps us to grow in your grace and love you and others more.
Quote: FrGambleAll powerful and ever living God,
you have no need of our praise
The Bible is full of direct orders to praise
god non stop.
Quote: EvenBobThe Bible is full of direct orders to praise
god non stop.
I wouldn't describe them as direct orders; more as pleas, exhortations, or encouragements. Only a need on the part of the party giving the"order" would motivate it, but a God who truly "needs" (i.e., ontologically or metaphysically lacks something) would probably not be the object of Judeo-Christian faith.
Since Bible writers (and readers!) are supposed to understand this, no "liner note" or textual gloss on the point is necessary.
Quote: FrGambleAll powerful and ever living God,
I thought we'd established Sheldon Cooper is not god. ;)
Quote: NowTheSerpentI wouldn't describe them as direct orders; more as pleas, exhortations, or encouragements.
The fact that god would create beings just
to love and praise him is a frightening
concept. Thats what a crackpot minister
like Jim Jones and David Karesh did, set
themselves up as little gods to be worshiped
by their flocks. We look at it as sick and
demented, yet thats what Christians claim
god did. Why isn't that sick and demented
too?
Quote: EvenBobThe fact that god would create beings just
to love and praise him is a frightening
concept.
God created you to live forever in the joys of Heaven. The love and praise thing should kind of come natural in the face of that radical idea. It would be sick and demented or at least very rude not to give thanks to a guy who gave you such an awesome gift.
Quote: FrGambleGod created you to live forever in the joys of Heaven.
But he doesn't let people into heaven who don't
praise and obey him, so you can't seperate the
two. Like I said, a frightening concept.
Mankind invented their Gods so that they wouldn't have to deal with the fact that they will someday no longer exist.Quote: FrGambleGod created you to live forever in the joys of Heaven.
Quote: s2dbakerdeal with the fact that they will someday no longer exist.
You're body won't exist, anyway.
Quote: EvenBobBut he doesn't let people into heaven who don't
praise and obey him, so you can't seperate the
two. Like I said, a frightening concept.
Goodness gracious, how many times do I have to quote Matthew 25:31-46? It is a good passage worthy of another read by you.
the apostles if you fail to follow orders.
What else is new.
That works both ways FrGamble. How many times do we have to quote Deuteronomy 28:15-64 where the God of Love will "send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him". It is a good passage worthy of another read by you.Quote: FrGambleGoodness gracious, how many times do I have to quote Matthew 25:31-46? It is a good passage worthy of another read by you.
Quote: s2dbakerThat works both ways FrGamble. How many times do we have to quote Deuteronomy 28:15-64 where the God of Love will "send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him". It is a good passage worthy of another read by you.
You don't understand, s2... What it means is that God loves you... Why can't you see that?
Quote: s2dbakerThat works both ways FrGamble. How many times do we have to quote Deuteronomy 28:15-64 where the God of Love will "send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him". It is a good passage worthy of another read by you.
This is covered in the celebrate religion thread, since I don't know how to do any other way here is a post from that thread:
Quote: MathExtremist
How does Catholicism view Deuteronomy 28:15-68? Does it only apply to the Israelites? Is it, as you quoted from Dei Verbum, "incomplete and temporary"? Is it null and void?Quote: FrGamble
Yes it is temporary. All you have to do is read Dueteronomy 30:1-20 to see that. The mercy of God will always be there to help and forgive even the gravest transgressions. Moses also shows them that the choice is theirs; God sets before them life and prosperity or death and doom - you decide (Dt. 30:15). Moses also reminds them that the laws of the Lord are already written in their hearts; you have only to carry it out (Dt. 30:14).
It is also incomplete and temporary in that Jesus establishes the new and eternal covenant through His passion, death, and resurrection and frees us from the punishment due to our sin and disobedience of the Law. This freedom from being under the impossible burden of the law and its just consequences is exactly why Jesus came to save ALL of humanity. This freedom from the law is also the central message of the former pharisee St. Paul.
Quote: FrGambleGod created you to live forever in the joys of Heaven. The love and praise thing should kind of come natural in the face of that radical idea. It would be sick and demented or at least very rude not to give thanks to a guy who gave you such an awesome gift.
Again, it would only be "rude" to someone who needed thanks for what he did naturally. Presumably, God has no need to give, it's just His nature to do so, possibly as a result of overabundant creative power. He might be thought of as "rudely altruistic" Himself, not really asking me whether I'd like for Him to introduce the germ of something new in my life - He just can't help Himself! And Heaven was made for people like that - who have the same impulse to create, rearrange (Hebrew bara') things, even forcibly, for the sake of Experience, Knowledge, and Wisdom with enthusiasm for the broadest and most surprising possibilities for what can exist. The Universe is auspicious, and very inexplicable shit happens all the time (this is a gambling discussion forum). The test of our preparedness for Heaven: How well do we enjoy being surprised, even shocked at what's possible? How optimistically do we embrace the Unknown and the Unknowable?
Given that approx. 100 billion humans have lived on the planet so far, it must be a pretty onerous job.
Quote: victorimmatureI always wonder who let you into heaven before St. Peter became available.
.
It was Santa, of course. Saint Nick. He got bored
and got the job he has now. Fits right in with the fairy
tale..
Quote: EvenBobIt was Santa, of course. Saint Nick. He got bored
and got the job he has now. Fits right in with the fairy
tale..
I'd have rather taken my chances with Santa.
His generosity is legendary.
will finally be rewarded.
So God changed His mind about the laws He gave to Moses and decided to save us from His own wrath by implanting Himself in a girl, getting born, murdering a fig tree and then managing to get Himself executed.Quote: FrGambleThis is covered in the celebrate religion thread, since I don't know how to do any other way here is a post from that thread:
....
It is also incomplete and temporary in that Jesus establishes the new and eternal covenant through His passion, death, and resurrection and frees us from the punishment due to our sin and disobedience of the Law. This freedom from being under the impossible burden of the law and its just consequences is exactly why Jesus came to save ALL of humanity. This freedom from the law is also the central message of the former pharisee St. Paul.
This is what you believe! I only have one further question. Do you have any inkling at all why a sane and rational person might think that you're completely nuts?
Quote: s2dbakerSo God changed His mind about the laws He gave to Moses....
Right after he promised them that the Mosaic Law (halakah), with all the details therein, was "a statute forever"?
Quote: s2dbakerThis is what you believe! I only have one further question. Do you have any inkling at all why a sane and rational person might think that you're completely nuts?
Very few Christians I know will actually sit down
and discuss this subject, they avoid it like the
plague. All they want to talk about is god's love,
and what their best buddy Jesus does for them.
Gives them peace of mind, helps them cope,
answers their prayers. I really think they believe
the details are just as whacko as the rest of us do,
but you have to accept the whole package, so
they just don't think about it.
Some people they like to go out dancing
and other people they have to work.
and there's even some evil mothers
they're gonna tell you that everything is just dirt.
You know that women never really faint
and that villains always blink their eyes.
That children are the only ones who blush
and that life is just to die.
But anyone who ever had a heart
they wouldn't turn around and break it.
And anyone who ever played a part
they wouldn't turn around and hate it.
Point being, we live and love and do good because we are human. We don't turn into something else because of or not because of a god. If you have a heart, you cherish it; if you are the way you are, you stay that way. Gods have nothing to do with it. And that doesn't make life pointless; it becomes its own rationale. You live to love, you live because living is the good and right thing to do.
father can make you live forever if you telepathically tell him you
accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul
that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a
talking snake to eat from a magical tree..... yeah, makes perfect sense."
---- the word of "Gary"
Quote: MrV"Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own
father can make you live forever if you telepathically
Thing is, all this stuff manifested itself over
time, it wasn't presented in one big package.
Taken in bits and pieces, if you're illiterate
and unsophisticated, it can be swallowed.
Taken all at once, its just too far over the line.
Quote: EvenBobif you're illiterateand unsophisticated, it can be swallowed.Taken all at once, its just too far over the line.
Sure, lots of ignorant, unsophisticated folk were kept down for many centuries by the church.
But that isn't really the case today, with the proliferation of public education and the internet.
How can you explain the fact that many literate, reasonably sophisticated Americans still claim to believe in god?
I would argue that for them, their belief in god is analogous to their craving for comfort food: consider it a form of Mental Meatloaf.
I've been to the mountain top!
