pacomartin
pacomartin
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December 22nd, 2014 at 8:46:25 AM permalink
PA does not seem to have built a growth business. Slot revenue is tapering off everywhere.
Harrah's Philadelphia -12.2%
Presque Isle -10.8%
Penn National -9.0%
The Meadows -8.3%
Parx -5.8%
SugarHouse -4.6%
Mount Airy -3.9%
Sands Bethlehem -3.6%
Mohegan Sun -2.4%
The Rivers -2.2%

Valley Forge +22.6%
Nemacolin N/A

Total SLOTS for PA -4.5%
AZDuffman
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December 22nd, 2014 at 8:54:05 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

PA does not seem to have built a growth business. Slot revenue is tapering off everywhere.



The novelty is gone and they need to drive traffic to the floor besides saying "we got slots!" I know the girl doing Tarot Card readings at Rivers on NYE. Rivers seems to understand better than most that you need more than gaming.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Boz
Boz
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December 22nd, 2014 at 9:04:49 AM permalink
Penn National (Hollywood) is a ghost town compared to what it used to be and the slot floor seems so huge for the volume now. It actually seems like their numbers should be down more than 10%. Yet their offers are still very weak compared to AC and Vegas.
coilman
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December 22nd, 2014 at 9:09:07 AM permalink
POOR HORSEMEN are going to be crying if they start taking more money away from them.

As the horsemen in Ontario had theirs taken away a few years ago... they thought they were OWED that money because THEY allowed the slots into THEIR racetracks. I asked them which tracks they owned....which I knew was none.

In Ontario the racetracks and horsemen shared almost $4 BILLION dollars from the slots over about 14 years.

This revenue sharing is the only thing keeping harness racing going the past decade
bobsims
bobsims
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December 22nd, 2014 at 7:39:43 PM permalink
PA has some of the lowest slot returns in the USA. People are getting busted out.
Keyser
Keyser
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December 22nd, 2014 at 10:09:34 PM permalink
Part of the problem with PA are the "bean counters" and their lack of foresight. (It's a Vegas problem as well)

At first, they believe that players won't notice an x% reduced return on the slots, or that blackjack is paying out at only 6 to 5, and will still buy bottled water from the gift shop if the price is $3.5. Furthermore, over the next few months the math doesn't lie and the revenue reflects the increase in profit....until...it doesn't.

After a while, people become irritated, and rather insulted, by the gouging, the "resort fee" and from being basically ripped off by the casinos. And the $3.5 water doesn't taste like a bargain. The general public knows when they're getting a fair shake, and when they're getting poked by the actuaries. And over time, patrons stop going to the casinos as frequently, or choose to stop going all together.

Attempting to squeeze every last penny possible from gambler's produces great profits for a few months, but in the long run it's a recipe for failure.



In the end, you could say that the casinos lose business over time because they choose to gamble in the "short term" rather than in the "long run".





-Keyser
ontariodealer
ontariodealer
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December 22nd, 2014 at 10:24:05 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Part of the problem with PA are the "bean counters" and their lack of foresight. (It's a Vegas problem as well)

At first, they believe that players won't notice an x% reduced return on the slots, or that blackjack is paying out at only 6 to 5, and will still buy bottled water from the gift shop if the price is $3.5. Furthermore, over the next few months the math doesn't lie and the revenue reflects the increase in profit....until...it doesn't.

After a while, people become irritated, and rather insulted, by the gouging, the "resort fee" and from being basically ripped off by the casinos. And the $3.5 water doesn't taste like a bargain. The general public knows when they're getting a fair shake, and when they're getting poked by the actuaries. And over time, patrons stop going to the casinos as frequently, or choose to stop going all together.

Attempting to squeeze every last penny possible from gambler's produces great profits for a few months, but in the long run it's a recipe for failure.



In the end, you could say that the casinos lose business over time because they choose to gamble in the "short term" rather than planning ahead for the "long run".



-Keyser



great post
get second you pig
Keyser
Keyser
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December 22nd, 2014 at 10:41:42 PM permalink
Can you imagine a restaurant if it were run by the casino actuaries?

1. Prices would go up every month.
2. Each month, the number of waiters/waitresses would go down, to decrease overhead. Those that remain wouldn't speak English (so that they could exploit tax breaks by hiring minorities and immigrants.)
3. Each month, the plates would get smaller, as would the portions, after all, "research shows that people won't notice a difference."
4. Senior staff waiters/waitresses would be replaced once they had more than a year or two on the job to reduce benefit packages.
5. Water would cost $3.5.
5. Overtime, robot servers would replace human servers.
6. Once revenue was in the red, a restaurant resort fee or chew tax would be added to your bill as would a glass and dish wash fee.




-Keyser
coilman
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December 22nd, 2014 at 11:16:42 PM permalink
I was amazed at the crazy prices of stuff at PARIS this past trip

1 minute long distance phone call could be had for $9.86 with $3.50 each extra minute

breakfast buffet there was $20.99

internet around $15 a day that works out to $465 for a month CRAZY

and how about those cabs all charging 20 cents per mile SURCHARGE for gas....that works out to about $4 for every gallon they are using not bad when its going for $2.60 a gallon

$7 for a slice of bad pizza over at the Flamingo?


come to think of it I have never eaten at PARIS and I have stayed there 5 times...guess I am cheap
GWAE
GWAE
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December 23rd, 2014 at 2:40:32 AM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Part of the problem with PA are the "bean counters" and their lack of foresight. (It's a Vegas problem as well)

At first, they believe that players won't notice an x% reduced return on the slots, or that blackjack is paying out at only 6 to 5, and will still buy bottled water from the gift shop if the price is $3.5. Furthermore, over the next few months the math doesn't lie and the revenue reflects the increase in profit....until...it doesn't.

After a while, people become irritated, and rather insulted, by the gouging, the "resort fee" and from being basically ripped off by the casinos. And the $3.5 water doesn't taste like a bargain. The general public knows when they're getting a fair shake, and when they're getting poked by the actuaries. And over time, patrons stop going to the casinos as frequently, or choose to stop going all together.

Attempting to squeeze every last penny possible from gambler's produces great profits for a few months, but in the long run it's a recipe for failure.
In the end, you could say that the casinos lose business over time because they choose to gamble in the "short term" rather than in the "long run".
-Keyser



In PA BJ pays 3 to 2
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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December 23rd, 2014 at 3:49:52 AM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Part of the problem with PA are the "bean counters" and their lack of foresight. (It's a Vegas problem as well)

At first, they believe that players won't notice an x% reduced return on the slots, or that blackjack is paying out at only 6 to 5, and will still buy bottled water from the gift shop if the price is $3.5. Furthermore, over the next few months the math doesn't lie and the revenue reflects the increase in profit....until...it doesn't.

After a while, people become irritated, and rather insulted, by the gouging, the "resort fee" and from being basically ripped off by the casinos. And the $3.5 water doesn't taste like a bargain. The general public knows when they're getting a fair shake, and when they're getting poked by the actuaries. And over time, patrons stop going to the casinos as frequently, or choose to stop going all together.

Attempting to squeeze every last penny possible from gambler's produces great profits for a few months, but in the long run it's a recipe for failure.



In the end, you could say that the casinos lose business over time because they choose to gamble in the "short term" rather than in the "long run".





-Keyser



In PA, though, they have good BJ rules and for now they can't touch that by state reg. That's in peril no doubt, so I will say you are on the money with this post, but neither BJ nor Craps got victimized in PA [so no 6-5 for example].

The state made sure when they approved gambling that they were getting a piece of the action right off the top. I would say this meant the slots had to be the cash cow.

The bean-counters when called in are put in a funny position. It's similar to big companies where they investigate the bottom line problem and find the CEO and other big shots are walking away with insane salaries, bonuses, and golden parachutes, whether or not the company is doing worth a damn. The accountants get shook up and some of them probably mutter "this is turning me into a Communist!". So they turn in their recommendations and what do they say? Not "cut back on the CEO's compensation" etc, no, rather "hey you guys better lay some people off, get rid of the old duffers making too much, and see if you can cut back on hours for the rest"
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AZDuffman
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December 23rd, 2014 at 4:04:18 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit



The bean-counters when called in are put in a funny position. It's similar to big companies where they investigate the bottom line problem and find the CEO and other big shots are walking away with insane salaries, bonuses, and golden parachutes, whether or not the company is doing worth a damn. The accountants get shook up and some of them probably mutter "this is turning me into a Communist!". So they turn in their recommendations and what do they say? Not "cut back on the CEO's compensation" etc, no, rather "hey you guys better lay some people off, get rid of the old duffers making too much, and see if you can cut back on hours for the rest"




In most cases cutting the CEO's salary is not going to make or break the organization. Cost cuts have to be wide. But I digress.

It would seem to me that the best way to increase gaming revenue in PA would be to cut the Commonwealth's mafia-level slot skim of 55% to 45-55% with the mandate that the payouts get bumped to say 94-95%. We all here know that the 95% of that extra payout will not hit the door. The casino management knows it. The politicians in Harrisburg do not, so unless say someone starts a write-in campaign to send me to Harrisburg things will not change.

I still want to know if a friend of mine is right that the video poker here is not real video poker, also.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
odiousgambit
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December 23rd, 2014 at 4:17:51 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I still want to know if a friend of mine is right that the video poker here is not real video poker, also.



I decided to look this up. Class III is the desirable type.

Quote: link

How do you know the machine is Class II or III? Look for the small display of a bingo card on the machine If you don’t see a bingo card, it’s probably Class III



http://www.casinocenter.com/class-ii-vs-class-iii-video-poker-machines/

Quote: answer man in link

Delaware has Class II Video Lottery Terminals, not Class III slot machines like Las Vegas, Atlantic City and Pennsylvania



http://robison.casinocitytimes.com/article/ask-the-slot-expert-has-the-programming-changed-on-video-poker-machines-60344

so I think your friend got PA confused with DE
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Tanko
Tanko
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December 23rd, 2014 at 4:25:13 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Valley Forge +22.6%


Perhaps charging a membership fee is the answer.

I visited that dull Valley Forge last year.

Unless you spend at least $10 at their restaurants or bar, or are a visitor to their hotel, you have to buy a a three month or annual membership in order to gamble there.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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December 23rd, 2014 at 4:41:42 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I decided to look this up. Class III is the desirable type.



http://www.casinocenter.com/class-ii-vs-class-iii-video-poker-machines/



http://robison.casinocitytimes.com/article/ask-the-slot-expert-has-the-programming-changed-on-video-poker-machines-60344

so I think your friend got PA confused with DE



Thanks for the look-up. I will check the links later, right now deciding if to work a title on Festivus or go play poker.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Mosca
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December 23rd, 2014 at 5:12:22 AM permalink
Mrs Mosca is your classic slot player. She goes less often because constant losing is not fun. She is completely up front about losing all her money when she goes; what she wants is to have some nice hits first, she wants to have fun. Constant losing changes the way she sees the visit. Instead of wanting to go, now she wants to stay away.
A falling knife has no handle.
Dicenor33
Dicenor33
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December 23rd, 2014 at 5:30:13 AM permalink
Loosing first million is difficult. Later, money will slide through your fingers by itself!
Boz
Boz
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December 23rd, 2014 at 6:34:17 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

Perhaps charging a membership fee is the answer.

I visited that dull Valley Forge last year.

Unless you spend at least $10 at their restaurants or bar, or are a visitor to their hotel, you have to buy a a three month or annual membership in order to gamble there.




VF is required to charge the fee by law because of the type license they were issues, i.e. hotel small casino license. That said they have been growing year after year. The place is small but is in a good location and the tables are almost always full. Service and return play & comps are decent and the fee actually keeps out many problem customers. They are taking customers from Chester, Parx and Sugerhouse
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 23rd, 2014 at 7:04:55 AM permalink
I think in this situation, you bet whatever you can get away with, without calling attention from management. You have to know it won't last long, no matter how much you're betting.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
onenickelmiracle
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December 23rd, 2014 at 7:38:39 AM permalink
Quote: coilman

POOR HORSEMEN are going to be crying if they start taking more money away from them.

As the horsemen in Ontario had theirs taken away a few years ago... they thought they were OWED that money because THEY allowed the slots into THEIR racetracks. I asked them which tracks they owned....which I knew was none.

In Ontario the racetracks and horsemen shared almost $4 BILLION dollars from the slots over about 14 years.

This revenue sharing is the only thing keeping harness racing going the past decade

The only reason a track is given slots is to have horses. No horses, no casino. Can't blame horse people for wanting what is legally owed to them. I don't understand the condescending attitude You..re displaying towards them given the context the casinos were to support horse racing with slot revenues and cannot have slots without them. It's a legally binding deal nobody was forced into.
I am a robot.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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December 23rd, 2014 at 7:45:31 AM permalink
Accounting needs to be more conservative everywhere in America. When people blame bean counters, they mean something said to be intelligent lacks wisdom to know it's ignoring facts and common sense says the plans are unsustainable. On this basis, loans should never be medium start the process because someone like government always gets holding the bag.
I am a robot.
coilman
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December 23rd, 2014 at 10:01:34 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

The only reason a track is given slots is to have horses. No horses, no casino. Can't blame horse people for wanting what is legally owed to them. I don't understand the condescending attitude You..re displaying towards them given the context the casinos were to support horse racing with slot revenues and cannot have slots without them. It's a legally binding deal nobody was forced into.




They were installed at tracks because well tracks were accepted gambling places and the government wanted to expand this gambling without having to ask the people. SURE horsemen agreed to have them at all tracks...if they didn't get them in 1997 in Ontario harness racing would have been for ribbons by early 2000. They (the tracks) were suppose to use 5% of what they got off slots to improve the racing game.....guess how much went to improvements at most tracks? start with zero and add zero

Horsemen were suppose to invest in better horses.... we saw more and more bottom end claimers ($5000-6000) the ones that used to carry a $3000 price tag....but all was good because those horses were racing for purses double what they were before.

The only people not to benefit from the horsemen and tracks getting billions off slots??? Yeah you guessed it the fans in the stands

The powers that be saw that nobody was doing any marketing to grow the game over 14 years and well guess what happens...bye bye golden goose laying those golden eggs
rsactuary
rsactuary
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December 23rd, 2014 at 10:14:00 AM permalink
Quote: Keyser

The general public knows when they're getting a fair shake, and when they're getting poked by the actuaries. And over time, patrons stop going to the casinos as frequently, or choose to stop going all together.


-Keyser



I agree with your whole statement except the part about the actuaries. We have nothing to do with setting returns on gaming devices.
RonC
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December 23rd, 2014 at 10:26:59 AM permalink
I'd enjoy seeing the numbers for casinos based on slot settings and revenue...I think (as do others) that the more people feel like they are continually losing; the easier it becomes for the non-addicted to stay away from the casinos. Is there a breaking point where slot settings get worse and players stop showing up?

It proves nothing conclusively but it sure seems that the $20 bills my wife feeds the machines last a much shorter time than they used to on a consistent basis. When she gets tired of losing, she stops playing. If she gets to that point faster, she plays less overall. If she "feels" like she is winning she will keep playing even if her bankroll is consistently going down.
tongni
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December 24th, 2014 at 11:59:55 AM permalink
as a casino, your patrons have two things. time and money. a great majority of players will play until one is low or exhausted then quit. a casino that draws a lot of out of town patrons benefits greatly from having terrible odds because the scarcest resource is time for many of their patrons. a casino that has lots of locals should have good to favorable odds for the player because time is often not an issue. the other thing is the amount of space. a casino that has every slot machine or table seat occupied is almost certainly not setting their limits/odds correctly, similar to the hotel that is at 100% occupancy every weekend.
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