Banned from blackjack Borgata
I'm not sure why you can't understand how we could take 450 in rougly 10 visits this year while it took you 9 years to make the same amount. It could be bet sizes were different. Also, I'm sure you went more than 10 times in that 9 years. In such a short sample of data that I have, you get that large variance of outcomes, thats what happened to me. If I went 100 times this year with no system I would surely not be ahead. I think thats that part that is lost in this. I've openly expressed the opinion that the more I go the more likely I am to give it all back, we are in agreement.
I may have a gambling problem given I got and like the thrill of higher stakes, but going every month or so instead of daily/weekly I think I have it under control. I don't bet more than I can afford to lose, thats the key really.
Quote: sodawaterThe deregulation was just a change in enforcement by the state. It eliminated the requirement that every casino have a gaming agent present on every shift, and it moved the casino regulation from the Casino Control Commission to the Division of Gaming Enforcement. Basically it was a move to save money, and it hasn't really worked that well. This doesn't change the Supreme Court ruling in the Uston case one bit. The only thing it changes is that if you get barred for playing BJ skillfully, instead of seeing the CCC agent on the premises right away, you'd have to call the DGE and they would send an agent.
Exactly. And since the time when the OP brought up his point quite some time ago and was challenged, not one bit of any sort of relevant documentation has ever been offered. It is notable that he applies the purported ban on card counting to what he says was his banning at roulette.
Quote: sodawatermarch, why didnt you try baccarat with its much higher betting limits?
A really good place for that might just across Brigantine Boulevard. The Golden Nugget does have an interesting supposedly unresolved history with that game. Just follow the play of a certain group of bettors and don't pay any attention to the hordes of floor supervisors standing around gabbing as they witness the antics.
Those of us that actually gamble in casino have likely experienced many things that you have not had a chance to experience on an internet forum. However, that doesn't make our experiences any less real. It simply means that you likely haven't had a chance to have the same experience.
Regarding proof, I provided adequate documentation involving other card players, such as Don Johnson. However, at the time, either you chose not to read the information, or perhaps the articles were too long and the words were too large for you to adequately comprehend the information that I took the time to provide. In the meantime, you can feel free to revisit the information that I posted sometime back.
Someone will have to go through the civil process in order for there to be a test case for the new deregulation.
-Keyser
Quote: PaigowdanWheel timing Roulette AP....
Quote: IbeatyouracesJust like DI.
The stroboscopic effects are strikingly similar (and hallucinatory).
Quote: march58I don't bet more than I can afford to lose, thats the key really.
I hope to be this successful in life where a kick of positive variance leads to $450k in 10 visits, but at the same time, not betting more than I can afford to lose. :) To do so, I probably need to switch fields though, or hit Powerball/Mega Millions...meh.
Quote: KeyserYou probably haven't heard of it, simply because you, and your friends haven't spent much time in the casinos. (By the way, I don't believe for one minute that anyone is earning a living by counting cards. The only people making a living from BJ are sort players, hole carding teams, and ace slicers).
-Keyser
Yeah, you are right. I don't spend much time in the casinos. lol. Your statement that you don't believe for one minute that anyone is earning a living by counting cards speaks volumes about what you do and don't know. You are either out of touch or in denial or just not familiar, but either way, you lose credibility. There are a number of players still earning a living counting cards. Granted, probably not as many as there were 20 years ago. That was before my time, so I can't say. Most that still do, don't do it the way I choose to, playing mid-level limits and playing mostly one area. Most travel all over the country playing different locations.
Not that any of that really matters, because it would seem your whole post was to try to take a shot at and discredit me. And that is fine. What you think of and/or about me doesn't matter to me one iota. We are basically just having a pleasant discussion here, sharing ideas, so I am not sure why you felt the need to take a shot at me, but that's your issue.
Quote: kewljI don't like to accuse anyone of lying, so I won't.
Actually, I don't either, - IF the story seems to be in good faith, and the story-teller just appears to be authentically naive and genuine.
But if a new poster jumps in pretending to be a "damsel in distress needing advice from us knowledgable gamblers," (- while really a wolf who shows up "just to show us up"), then you can make a call to call his bluff. You should, in fact. You can say, 'I think you're full of it because lack of specifics in x, y, and z. Can you explain this descrepancy and get back in with us in good graces?"
I listed outright many areas where no real casino or gambling detail was provided, everything from the color up amounts, dealer reactions, other player reactions, Casino CTR reporting hassles, all of which would have been normal part of his casino sessions, and which any legit gambler would be happy to share or ask us for advice or similar experiences on.
Now, you can still play a little table tennis with him on the basis that his "casino win story" may be open BS, and see if he can account oe where it goes for a moment, or what doozie or beaut he lobs in. If he's here for real advice from us - fine. If he's here for a real gambling session with us gamblers - very fine, too. But if His gambling session was really a ".#$%&@" session on us, well, it's callable as such.
We are here as a "functional dysfunctional tight-knit group" of characters who sometimes bicker and fight, but hey, we work, and we're real about gambling, which is our interest, if not our passion. That's a very reasonable standard for a gambling and gaming board.
If someone jumps in to mess with that standard, he can be called on it. I also think if there is a clear risk that someone jumps in on false pretenses, misrepresenting himself, or a wolf to mock us, he should be then called on it, and then banned, in my opinion.
Quote: kewljI have already expressed my doubts about the situation, by suggesting the OP is confused or mistaken. I had decided to no longer participate in this thread, but rather just sit back and watch Dan go at it.
I am honored; I mean this, kewlj, thank you.
Quote: kewljKind of nice to be in agreement with Dan for a change and be able to root him on. lol But teddys just brought up a good point. Don Johnson, the guy who won 15 million playing blackjack in AC was not banned in AC. He was banned at Caesar's and Harrah's in Las Vegas. In AC he is still welcome to play. He just is no longer receiving the special loss rebates that he was being offered.
[....]
Maybe another problem I am having is with the numbers involved. I took a few minutes this afternoon and added up my earnings from 9 years of supporting myself from blackjack advantage play and my 9 year total comes in below this 450K mark. Very close, but just below. Yikes! No wonder I am having a hard time grasping this number. lol
If you were a recreational player like me, you may be down, to be honest, but I consider it an extertainment expense; it is, for me. If I'm up for a couple of months, I'm happy. But I have never had a super-duper extended winning streak like that, and IF I did, boy would I provide us with in-casino details of that gambling action!
Better methods include the following:
Sort play
Hole carding
Ace tracking
Quote: KeyserWhen it comes to card counting, the math just isn't there anymore. It's a foolish waste of time to attempt it for a living. There are far better ways to attack bj than counting cards.
Better methods include the following:
Sort play
Hole carding
Ace tracking
Well, the math IS still there. Granted it is not as lucrative as it was years ago when there were better conditions. And that is why there are fewer players doing so (at least at the level of making a living), I am sure. Many players have moved on to other things. Among them poker as well as more advanced methods. many out of gambling altogether. The common wisdom is that if you can make a living card counting, you could make a much better living in another field.
As for myself, I am not familiar with Sort play.
I am familiar with hole carding. I began to get into hole carding a couple years ago for a period. I even began tracking a couple 'sloppy' dealers schedules and days off. But I did not care for winning that way. I will not go as far as to say hole carding is cheating, but you are gaining an advantage by having information you are not supposed to have. I don't fault players that engage in this method and I do know a few, but it just wasn't for me. I like being able to win at blackjack using only the information that is supposed to be available to me and yes you can still win that way. Slim margin, but it is still there. I actually really enjoy winning through counting. Kind of a throw back to past era, before my time.
Ace tracking, I have just recently looked into. Haven't spent too much time on it, but I think I am just going to pass for the time being. I just completed my best year of my 9 by far, have taken on a friend as a partner/associate and am very happy with where I am at. I may choose to revisit that at some point.
Quote: mrcleanWhen a player is backed off or banned because the casino thinks they are counting isn't that information shared with other casinos?
Sorry that this response is so far back, but there have been a lot of posts since I last signed on :)
Some casinos share that information. Some only share with the casinos within their own ownership group; some give the information to sites like OSN for all the members there to see. Of course, each member of OSN knows that these are only the results found by that particular casino staff and they are expected to form their own conclusion.
Quote: sodawaterwell this thread has sure derailed
Yes, please excuse me while I create a new one.
EDIT: The new thread can be found here: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/12436-was-it-a-bet/2/
Quote: march58Just to clarify the 450k total this year was for both of us as I said early, not just me.
Quote: march58My sole purpose was to see what my rights were in this matter and I thought this board could help and you did.
Between you there were $450k in winnings so you decided to ask about banning on an internet message board (where you've received conflicting information and no resolution) instead of contacting an attorney?
I think we can safely add this inconsistency to the skeptics list of reasons to doubt.
We have about 100 hours of combined play by two intoxicated individuals over a one year period with $450k in wins. That averages out to $4500 for each hour played or $2250 each.
We have a host who discusses surveillance techniques and software with his client before banning him from playing blackjack. This is all done over the phone.
We have the friend who is lucky to be able to find his room after being served 10-15 shots plus mixed drinks. This by a highly trained staff always on the lookout for problem drinkers.
My suggestion to march58 is to call your host. Tell him you are coming for a visit. Tell him you will be playing blackjack and tell him that you expect to be treated in the way you've become accustomed. Go on the offensive, march. March yourself down to the blackjack table and ask for the pit boss. Introduce yourself to him and tell him how much you're looking forward to an enjoyable stay at his casino. That ought to get them thinking.
Keep records of your play and anything else that may be pertinent so you can give us a good trip report. This thread may have a chance to break the top 5 so stay with us.
Quote: 1BBAtlantic City casinos are forbidden from banning card counters. This was decided by the New Jersey Supreme Court in the case of Uston v. Resorts International Hotel Inc. I've never heard of a host banning a card counter. Tell him you want it in writing.
They can restrict your bets, shuffle up any time and half shoe you but they cannot ban you.
YET they can take away your current comp dollars, future comp dollar earnings, match play, and comp rooms. As what just happened to me.
Quote: richbailey86i thought AC casinos cannot ban a blackjack player even if they were counting cards....this scares me
They can make you basically ban yourself. You can lose everything you have earned there and the ability to earn things in the future. They can also shuffle the shoe on you when they want.
Quote: Lemieux66They can make you basically ban yourself. You can lose everything you have earned there and the ability to earn things in the future. They can also shuffle the shoe on you when they want.
right they can remove comps but cant force you to leave?
Quote: richbailey86right they can remove comps but cant force you to leave?
No, not for counting cards.
Quote: sodawaterNo, not for counting cards.
so then OP must have done something else
Quote: richbailey86right they can remove comps but cant force you to leave?
No but they can make the game unplayable. I saw a guy flat bet at Borgata this morning. Remember, this is the casino that will restrict your bets if you don't identify yourself.
Have you played in Connecticut, richbaily86?
Quote: richbailey86so then OP must have done something else
OP didnt get banned. the title is an exaggeration.
Go to court and change your name and sign up for a new card.Quote: 1BBNo but they can make the game unplayable. I saw a guy flat bet at Borgata this morning. Remember, this is the casino that will restrict your bets if you don't identify yourself.
Have you played in Connecticut, richbaily86?
Quote: onenickelmiracleGo to court and change your name and sign up for a new card.
Borgata has facial recognition software. I was told this by borgata.
Quote: Lemieux66Borgata has facial recognition software. I was told this by borgata.
lol. So Borgata is going to invoke its facial recognition software to make sure a red chip counter doesn't get a comp to Bread and Butter?
Lemieux, I am sorry, but like 90 percent of everything you say is so totally wrong and misinformed. You must be either the unluckiest advantage player in the world, or you are lying to yourself, or you are doing a massive number of things wrong. I think it's gotta be a combination of the latter two.
If you want my advice -- and I am not saying you do -- I think you should invest some time in reading the relevant AP literature and re-doing your whole approach.
Quote: sodawaterlol. So Borgata is going to invoke its facial recognition software to make sure a red chip counter doesn't get a comp to Bread and Butter?
Lemieux, I am sorry, but like 90 percent of everything you say is so totally wrong and misinformed. You must be either the unluckiest advantage player in the world, or you are lying to yourself, or you are doing a massive number of things wrong. I think it's gotta be a combination of the latter two.
If you want my advice -- and I am not saying you do -- I think you should invest some time in reading the relevant AP literature and re-doing your whole approach.
You might think I'm wrong, but I'm really not. I've done both green and red chip play. I got all of it taken away. Every last comp dollar. I called them last week and asked and I was told I would never get another comp from them again. They told me they had me on the radar "for months". No lie.
All I've done is raise my bet when the count improved. Nothing very suspicious. If anyone is in AC Wednesday-Friday you are welcome to watch me play at Taj, Resorts, or Trop.
Quote: Lemieux66All I've done is raise my bet when the count improved. Nothing very suspicious.
Ah, that explains it. They see it as the smoking gun.
Quote: Lemieux66red chip play.
I would bet that you could spread $10 to $50 at the Borgata h17 8d $10 game and announce the running count to the table before every deal and they wouldn't do anything.
Quote: sodawaterI would bet that you could spread $10 to $50 at the Borgata h17 8d $10 game and announce the running count to the table before every deal and they wouldn't do anything.
See, I'm wondering if it's something like this. Is he accidentally counting out loud? Is he asking the dealer what the count is when he forgets it?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSee, I'm wondering if it's something like this. Is he accidentally counting out loud? Is he asking the dealer what the count is when he forgets it?
Flash Cards, he's keeping the count on flash cards! I tend to advise against that, but I'm no professional, either.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceCan someone please go watch this guy play? I'm really, really curious about how blatant and obvious you are being.
Anyone in town can PM me on Wednesday to watch me play. Ill be in AC around 530.
Isn't it really easy to see who is counting and who is not? Most non counters flat bet. I just think it'd be really easy to spot and really tough to hide.
Quote: FinsRuleMost non counters flat bet.
lolwut?
Martingale, 3-5-8, any number of betting systems that players love to use that don't do any good, but they still use them. Pretty much the only non-counting players who flat bet are those who restrict themselves to the table minimum (or perhaps the table maximum).
Just knowing casinos can snoop reading what's on your phone and feel they might have to spy, they might have singled you out. Just my theory on you they figured out you were Lemieux, didn't like what they read you wrote, and decided to axe you just for pure pleasure and to show their power off to themselves. This theory bases off the assumption you didn't do anything else they didn't like and you didn't mention.Quote: Lemieux66Yes, but not at the blackjack table. The only times I've ever constantly checked a wizard site were during Multistrike VP sessions.
One thing you did mention, after the fact, was having your card used in the poker room by some guy to get you points. This alone might have angered them to high hell being the sole reason. You also have to consider it links you to the man and maybe he was already obvious and on their POS list. This might have been the mistake, I don't know but makes sense. Why he didn't use a card of his own I'm wondering it was for a reason.
Quote: Deucekieslolwut?
Martingale, 3-5-8, any number of betting systems that players love to use that don't do any good, but they still use them. Pretty much the only non-counting players who flat bet are those who restrict themselves to the table minimum (or perhaps the table maximum).
I don't play a ton anymore, but when I did, it was generally people betting around the same every hand. Definitely not using progressions all the time. Maybe STL market was different...
Quote: FinsRuleThis is sort of off topic, sort of not:
Isn't it really easy to see who is counting and who is not? Most non counters flat bet. I just think it'd be really easy to spot and really tough to hide.
While it is probably true that most non-counters flat-bet, it is not true that most people who don't flat-bet are counters.
Quote: onenickelmiracleJust knowing casinos can snoop reading what's on your phone and feel they might have to spy, they might have singled you out. Just my theory on you they figured out you were Lemieux, didn't like what they read you wrote, and decided to axe you just for pure pleasure and to show their power off to themselves. This theory bases off the assumption you didn't do anything else they didn't like and you didn't mention.
One thing you did mention, after the fact, was having your card used in the poker room by some guy to get you points. This alone might have angered them to high hell being the sole reason. You also have to consider it links you to the man and maybe he was already obvious and on their POS list. This might have been the mistake, I don't know but makes sense. Why he didn't use a card of his own I'm wondering it was for a reason.
It's possible. He was also banned at borgata. He never told me he got a bit of flack for using my card though. Dealers didn't notice or care. Floor people same thing.
Quote: Lemieux66It's possible. He was also banned at borgata.
Why do you keep lying about bans? Borgata and all other NJ casinos do not have the legal right to ban card counters. Why would you equate not getting free rooms and free meals with being banned?
Quote: sodawaterWhy do you keep lying about bans? Borgata and all other NJ casinos do not have the legal right to ban card counters. Why would you equate not getting free rooms and free meals with being banned?
It's an error on my part. Like me, he got all his stuff taken away.
Quote: Lemieux66You might think I'm wrong, but I'm really not. I've done both green and red chip play. I got all of it taken away. Every last comp dollar. I called them last week and asked and I was told I would never get another comp from them again. They told me they had me on the radar "for months". No lie.
All I've done is raise my bet when the count improved. Nothing very suspicious. If anyone is in AC Wednesday-Friday you are welcome to watch me play at Taj, Resorts, or Trop.
I just spent the last three days in AC, sorry I missed you. You do know that there is no S17 on the main floor of the Taj? The other two casinos have four tables each of S17.
I'm very surprised to hear that someone on the phone would tell you that you would never get another comp again. Even more bizarre is telling you that you have been on the radar for months. Does a lowly players club rep even have that information? If they did, I would think it against policy to discuss it over the phone. It certainly defies common sense. All this for red chip play on the worst games in town?
