Thread Rating:

march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 4:33:58 PM permalink
I just found this site while searching the internet concerning my recent banning from playing blackjack at Borgata. I hope that I can bring this topic up on your board. I hope this in the right area.

My story:

I started going to Borgata about a year ago. I have visited the casino on about 12 occasions since then. I've come out ahead probably 8 or 9 out of the 12 times. My last visit I won around 50k playing blackjack. When I contacted my host to set up another visit, I was told that I was no longer welcome to play blackjack at the casino because they believe I'm card counting. I do not count cards or even know how to count. I just go to the casino once in a while as an release from a very stressful job and I enjoy going there and drinking, partying, and playing some table games. I do not understand why I'm banned from blackjack, its really a buzzkill. They are calling me a "skilled player" and my action is no longer wanted in their casino. I was shocked to hear this as I honestly just was lucky a few times. I clearly sit at the table and drink heavily and would not be able to count cards even if I was sober. My question is how enforceable is the ban? What can they do to make life hell on me if I do decide to play there anyway? Do I have any legal action/discrimination action that I can take? Obviously there are a lot of casinos that I could go to but I really enjoy being there. Also, I'm concerned that my name is on some list now as a card counter when again in actuality I'm the farthest thing from a counter that there is. I have no edge and they are probably doing me a favor by not letting me play to be honest.

Thanks and appreciate the feedback.
strictlyAP
strictlyAP
  • Threads: 116
  • Posts: 983
Joined: Jun 20, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 4:44:55 PM permalink
no recourse , your stuck, but hey im sure the revel will welcome you with open arms
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
December 28th, 2012 at 4:46:03 PM permalink
Quote: march58

My question is how enforceable is the ban? What can they do to make life hell on me if I do decide to play there anyway? Do I have any legal action/discrimination action that I can take?

The ban is completely legal if in fact you were banned. If you try to go back and they recognize you, you will probably be escorted off of the property and read some very specific and nasty sounding legalese. If you try to return after that, they will press charges for whatever the legalese was all about. The Borgata can certainly absorb a 50k loss. I'm surprised that they would dump you like that.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
MakingBook
MakingBook
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 496
Joined: Sep 19, 2011
December 28th, 2012 at 4:51:41 PM permalink
This is not meant to offend you, but if they won't take your action, they are idiots.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 4:58:39 PM permalink
no offense taken, I completely agree with you. Over time they would get their money back and more.

They said that on the video that I increased my bets right on cue with the card count. I'm dumbfounded I guess it was coincidence or they aren't sure how I'm winning and don't want to take a chance. I should add to my post that the last time was 50, but I hit for 100k one time and 50k another times. The friend I go with also won pretty big almost everytime we went, so combined our take home has been about 450k this year. Its still chump change for the casino i would think considering the whales they entertain.

thanks for the comments.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
December 28th, 2012 at 5:02:24 PM permalink
Atlantic City casinos are forbidden from banning card counters. This was decided by the New Jersey Supreme Court in the case of Uston v. Resorts International Hotel Inc. I've never heard of a host banning a card counter. Tell him you want it in writing.

They can restrict your bets, shuffle up any time and half shoe you but they cannot ban you.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
MakingBook
MakingBook
  • Threads: 24
  • Posts: 496
Joined: Sep 19, 2011
December 28th, 2012 at 5:03:25 PM permalink
Quote: march58

I should add to my post that the last time was 50, but I hit for 100k one time and 50k another times. The friend I go with also won pretty big almost everytime we went, so combined our take home has been about 450k this year. Its still chump change for the casino i would think considering the whales they entertain.



Wow $450k! I doubt the casino views that as chump change. Tell us about how much you bet? What's your bet spread?
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 5:08:15 PM permalink
honestly, I usually start out with 500 per hand but if I start to win I increase to the table max, so 3000-6000 when I'm winning and 500 per hand when I'm losing or just starting out. Depends on on how much I drink also which is usually a lot.
dwheatley
dwheatley
  • Threads: 25
  • Posts: 1246
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
December 28th, 2012 at 5:27:01 PM permalink
The general idea is that any private business, including casinos, can read you the Trespass Act whenever they like. One of the rules is that even if you used to be their guest on their private property, you can become uninvited at any time. All homes and businesses have this right, as long as it is not discriminatory. I was honestly surprised the first time I heard that NJ does not allow casinos to ban card counters. I'm not sure being smart is a protected demographic...

Anyway, you have essentially no rights in this matter, and should give your action to another casino. There are hosts who will trip over each other trying to get your business.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
December 28th, 2012 at 5:45:25 PM permalink
Quote: march58

honestly, I usually start out with 500 per hand but if I start to win I increase to the table max, so 3000-6000 when I'm winning and 500 per hand when I'm losing or just starting out. Depends on on how much I drink also which is usually a lot.



How much did you lose those 3 or 4 times that you lost? How many hours did you average per visit?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 6:03:13 PM permalink
rough estimates the losses where 10-20k on 2 occasions and less than 10 on one other....probably 3-5 hours each day visit at the bj table.
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 6:11:16 PM permalink
You are either confused or have the details of your story wrong. As 1BB stated, New jersey is forbidden by law backing off or baring players because they are counting cards. The only way they can bar a player is if he has done something illegal or created a disturbance (such as when Allen Iverson was banned from Bally's park place for urinating in a trash can). As far as counter measures for card counting their options are to bet restrict the player, where they place certain limits on just your action that don't apply to the rest of the table. They usually do this by pulling out a card that say min bet $5 max bet $50 and those limits only apply to you. This becomes kind of comical when it is a $25 or $50 table and the other players can't figure out what is going on...lol. The other option is they just reduce penetration, usually cutting the deck in half. But they cannot just refuse your action in NJ.
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 6:17:48 PM permalink
Kewlj, The reason I'm asking on here is that I'm confused why they would do this also and I'm also trying to find out if they can actually do that. I did not get a formal paper in writing saying such but when I asked my host to book my next visit he informed me that they have determined that I'm a "skilled player" and that survelance footage shows that I was card counting. They said, "you are not allowed to play blackjack in our casino". I'm allowed to play roulett or craps or any other game but not blackjack. It could be a case as your saying that they can't actually enforce it, but they can make it not fun by limiting me to 50 dollar maximums or something. By doing that it wouldn't even be fun to play for me.

I'm also concerned that I'm on a list now and will be hassled at other casinos if I get lucky again and win there.

I'm considering taking out full page ads in most of the big newspapers in the region to tell my story, how they do not want patrons of their facility to win. That if you win you will be banned from playing. This probably isn't worth the effort, but the negative publicity would not be great for them either.
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 6:24:59 PM permalink
Quote: march58

Kewlj, The reason I'm asking on here is that I'm confused why they would do this also and I'm also trying to find out if they can actually do that. I did not get a formal paper in writing saying such but when I asked my host to book my next visit he informed me that they have determined that I'm a "skilled player" and that survelance footage shows that I was card counting. They said, "you are not allowed to play blackjack in our casino". I'm allowed to play roulett or craps or any other game but not blackjack. It could be a case as your saying that they can't actually enforce it, but they can make it not fun by limiting me to 50 dollar maximums or something. By doing that it wouldn't even be fun to play for me.

I'm also concerned that I'm on a list now and will be hassled at other casinos if I get lucky again and win there.

I'm considering taking out full page ads in most of the big newspapers in the region to tell my story, how they do not want patrons of their facility to win. That if you win you will be banned from playing. This probably isn't worth the effort, but the negative publicity would not be great for them either.



Are you sure the host wasn't telling you that they can't accommodate you as far as comping your room and such. Pulling comps is often one of the first counter measures. But, even in a jurisdiction that can ban players the host does not have that authority. It is my understanding that a host usually isn't even an official employee of the property. They are usually under contract as a sub contractor type deal.
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 6:28:10 PM permalink
100% sure. He said the table guys contacted him and told him to relay it to me. They informed my buddy of the same thing. Both of us. I asked the host if it was because we won and he said no, that they don't care if people win. LOL.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
December 28th, 2012 at 6:57:05 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
brianparkes
brianparkes
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 74
Joined: Feb 26, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 10:58:30 PM permalink
I think taking out an ad like that would be a great idea if the money is not an issue with you. I work casino surveillance and when I make the recommendation to my general manager that a player is a "skilled player" (i.e. card counter), I always make sure I am as sure as possible for this exact reason. I have a feeling someone was under pressure to explain your winning sessions and they were too scared/ignorant to recognize it as standard variance.

Unless you really want to go back to that casino, an ad like that will get your message across to them quite effectively. On the plus side, I can guarantee that another casino in the area will welcome you with open arms and treat you quite well to take your action. Good luck to you.
sodawater
sodawater
  • Threads: 64
  • Posts: 3321
Joined: May 14, 2012
December 28th, 2012 at 11:27:06 PM permalink
deleted
Last edited by: sodawater on Oct 1, 2018
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 12:34:31 AM permalink
Agree.

Quote: march58

so combined our take home has been about 450k this year. Its still chump change for the casino i would think considering the whales they entertain.



March58 had won - and they noticed - an amount that the average American makes in 10 years; M58 won it cleanly, and from a variety of games. They'd love to win it back.

If March58 won it from a variety of games, and he doesn't count, one would assume he'd take the comps and play: dice, Three card, Roulette, etc., and enjoy the spoils, regardless if he was backed off of just Blackjack, and at one place.

Assuming he were backed off of Blackjack only, being a multiple game player, he'd continue with with the comps on the other games. If he didn't count, why would he care about one of his many games? Is there one favorite when you don't count? - then play the rest of your full "Harem?" Why even care if you don't AP on BJ? (Lisa, Venessa, Yolanda, May Ling, etc....)

I myself just play dice, poker/UTH/Three Card, and Pai Gow only. The last time I played Blackjack was on Freebet Blackjack to try (and love) that game. No blackjack for him now - and as a multi-game high-roller who DOESN'T count??!! Play something else and move on!

Backing off someone who didn't count - no less for someone who DID - is very tough for an operator to do in New Jersey.

And if he played as clean as he said, the operator would strive to win it back. Can we get some more details, no offense meant?

As Groucho Marx once said, "I'm dubious."

Edit: On this:
1. New Jersey operators KNOW New Jersey law, - especially for a noticeable player, and especially for a prominent, distinguished, and upscale place like the Borgata.
2. He wasn't back-roomed, chewed-out, or "trespassed" harshly at all. His casino host relayed a message to him that he should no longer return. No discussion with a Shift Manager, Table Games director, or anyone "technically versed" in table games.
3. A place like the Borgata would be able to accurately and successfully identify a true Advantage Player - especially after a year of play that yields $450,000 in winnings.
4. He says he was not counting Blackjack. Borgata says otherwise after a year of play that nets about a half a million dollars; okay. M58 says he plays a variety of games, but is furious that only one game was restricted, and that he doesn't "AP" on it. I know that if I were restricted from Blackjack, or Crazy-4 poker, or Ultimate texas Hold 'em, or dice, or Pai Gow Poker, - just one of many games, that I will play the others without complaint if no "malfeasance" was involved, and that it was eventually provable by me in good faith to them.
5. And what is the final disposition on his comps - they must be considerable, and spread out over many games....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 1:27:12 AM permalink
Here's my take on it:

1. First and foremost, don't listen to PaigowDan. Since you are relatively new here, you might be unaware of his track record, unless if you have lurked for a bit. As far as he is concerned, the casinos can do no wrong, the players can do no right, and APs are criminals and cheaters. If you like playing blackjack, then play at a place that will let you play blackjack. If you are playing at those stakes, they should be kissing your ass, not the other way around. If everything you say is true (and you are not an AP), then the people running this place are idiots.

2. As others have pointed out, you can go back. You might formally be backed off or barred then. That might even give you a viable lawsuit against them, if you feel like pursuing this. Talk to a lawyer who specializes in this area before trying anything, of course. If your goal is to "get even" with them, this might be your best course of action.

3. Even if you do go back and they let you play, it probably won't be great for you. At the very least, you probably won't be treated the way that, as a high-roller, you deserve to be treated (ie, you won't get the comps you deserve)

4. As others have pointed out, ANY other casino will welcome you with open arms. If your goal is just to continue to gamble and enjoy yourself, then your best bet is probably just to do this. Once again, remember, they are fighting for your business, not the other way around. This might also be a great way to "get even" with them, if that's what you're looking for. Win it from them, and lose it back to their competition.

No matter what you decide to do, definitely keep us updated on what happens! I'm curious to hear the outcome. Good luck!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 1:52:55 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Here's my take on it:

1. First and foremost, don't listen to PaigowDan. Since you are relatively new here, you might be unaware of his track record, unless if you have lurked for a bit. As far as he is concerned, the casinos can do no wrong, the players can do no right, and APs are criminals and cheaters.


This is a crock. (The Original Poster here may be a crock. I could have just as easily said to you March58: "Now, don't you listen to such-and-such "Axiom" here at our forum...)
I never at any time said March58 did anything wrong.
I simply said that I found his story suspect. Let's be clear on that, Axiom, - with you admitting this.

I could have just as easily said "don't listen to Axiom," but I hadn't taken such a shot.
I'm not saying it here, I'm saying not to start that crap.

In fact - listen to Axiom if you see fit. Listen to whomever you want to - but consider the one whom proves to be correct in the long run.
I've said go play other games and collect your comps, waiting it out.
I also listed the reasons WHY I can see your story as suspect.

Quote: Axiom of Choice

2. As others have pointed out, you can go back.


As I had done, and agreed with. Backed off of Blackjack?? - Play other games at the same place.

Quote: AxiomofChoice

No matter what you decide to do, definitely keep us updated on what happens! I'm curious to hear the outcome. Good luck!

.

Amen.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 2:02:35 AM permalink
For the record, - and for the curious:

Let Axiom of Choice publicly list his track record in the Gaming Industry.

I shall do the same in response, if he does so.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 5761
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 2:14:56 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

For the record, - and for the curious:

Let Axiom of Choice publicly list his track record in the Gaming Industry.

I shall do the same in response, if he does so.



I was obviously talking about your track record on this forum.

This game you play where you pretend to misunderstand what people say (even when it is obvious) is getting old. I'm pretty sure that no one is falling for it.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 2:20:07 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I was obviously talking about your track record on this forum.



1. Compared to whose track record....yours, Axiom? Oh...I see. [Opinion/Point-of-view here, arguably...is this a "popularity versus content" issue here? I am very unpopular here, and I admit that.]

2. What is wrong with that? I've always felt that counting/AP attempts ultimately end up as "self-punisinment" in so many cases. Very hard to do, and ultimately not successful, as we often see, and I say so. This does seem to be the final destination for so many ex-AP-ers; some quicker, some slower. Undeniable. I say so, or find a better way. Disagree? Fine with me, and so be it, but I'll state my case or point of view on the matter, and not directed towards people, but to the attempts that fail. I will also say that if of clean play, - defend it and collect your comps.

3. And can you keep with the thread and discussion at hand? The money he won was very curious...

Quote: Axiomofchoice

This game you play where you pretend to misunderstand what people say (even when it is obvious) is getting old. I'm pretty sure that no one is falling for it.


I understood EXACTLY what he said - and I openly doubted it and said so, agreeing with another poster - and for the reasons that I had openly listed. (Backed off by a HOST? The Borgata watched his play for a YEAR, him winning close to a half-million? And a New Jersey operator that does not New Jersey gaming law?....and he asks us, instead of his lawyer?)

...If YOU or ANYONE made a half-million in a year of play at ONE casino, and were backed off by a HOST, would you bounce it by your private lawyer - if it is in any way a question of gaming law - or throw it all to the Wolves on the most public of Gaming Internet forums? Pretty much "Mike's Public Gambling FaceBook page." Now, also notice the OP's "join date." This is part of my suspicion. Tiny question for me; doesn't add up for me.

Also - no discussion of TAX ramifications on that Half-Million income he won in New Jersey....curiously absent. I mean, if he had an accountant, then he also had an attorney, and he wouldn't be bouncing it by us here, MAYBE....(he can as a result afford one....an accountant or attorney might say "You might wanna keep this one close to the chest")....makes no sense....

I am asking him to falsify it and demonstrate himself here - as I do to you. He's welcome - as it is one HELL of an interesting story! [And clearly a bullshit story, that is, if he isn't Ben Affleck, Tom Cruise, or the president of the Ford Motor Company with this kind of action.]

Look, some of us here are from Missouri, so to speak. Anything offered, - fine with me. Maybe Mike or Eliot can do a "variance check" on this one with a pocket calculator.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
mrclean
mrclean
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 56
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 6:06:00 AM permalink
Quote: brianparkes

I work casino surveillance and when I make the recommendation to my general manager that a player is a "skilled player" (i.e. card counter), I always make sure I am as sure as possible for this exact reason. I have a feeling someone was under pressure to explain your winning sessions and they were too scared/ignorant to recognize it as standard variance.



Quote: AxiomOfChoice

4. As others have pointed out, ANY other casino will welcome you with open arms. If your goal is just to continue to gamble and enjoy yourself, then your best bet is probably just to do this. Once again, remember, they are fighting for your business, not the other way around. This might also be a great way to "get even" with them, if that's what you're looking for. Win it from them, and lose it back to their competition.



When a player is backed off or banned because the casino thinks they are counting isn't that information shared with other casinos?
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 6:47:41 AM permalink
Just to clarify the 450k total this year was for both of us as I said early, not just me.

More information.....The host said he talked with "table games guys" and they said their software detected that I was counting. They said that because my friend sat on the other end of the table from me (those were the seats that were available to us duh) that it raised suspicion that we were working as a team. They also sighted the fact that sometimes my friend got to the table first and then I came in (I was in the horse book more often) and started playing.

So last night I sent an email to the host asking to speak with the person who is accusing me of somethign I did not do and also mentiond that its not legal to ban me (per this board comments). He called me back 10 minutes later and said that he talked to the table games guy and that they mixed me up with my friend. Its my friend who they think was counting now, so their story has changed. So, now I'm allowed to come back and play but he is not-yet. I've left a message with the tables guy to speak with him. I told them that we are willing to do whatever it takes, shuffle the deck as often as you want, we really don't care (other than that would be annoying-time consuming). We just like going and having a good time. It seems like they are softening their position. I'm hoping they don't read this board but I guess it doesn't matter.

The whole thing is bizzare with their story changing a couple times, banned now not banned etc. I get why someone would question the story, but really I have no reason to make things up. My sole purpose was to see what my rights were in this matter and I thought this board could help and you did. Thank you.

My friend btw, is an alcoholic. He drinks 10-15 shots while playing blackjack-1 after another, and mixed drinks. There is zero chance he could count in that condition even if he was a counter, so it should be easy for them to figure out that this stretch of winning (small sample) is nothing more than chance. They just have not done their due diligence.

We only go there once every month or two so in the grand scheme we could just find another casino. I wish the Revel had a horse book, its my understanding that they dont. I really enjoy Old homestead, great steakhouse. I only play horses, BJ and a few spins on the outside of roulette for quick action, so the other games exciting for me.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:01:41 AM permalink
Okay, very fine...

Quote: march58

Just to clarify the 450k total this year was for both of us as I said early, not just me.

More information.....The host said he talked with "table games guys" and they said their software detected that I was counting. They said that because my friend sat on the other end of the table from me (those were the seats that were available to us duh) that it raised suspicion that we were working as a team. They also sighted the fact that sometimes my friend got to the table first and then I came in (I was in the horse book more often) and started playing.



I have got to say that your friend was playing absolutely huge money, - and winning huge money, - with you along for the ride - and for for QUITE a ride.
If he did not fill you in on either his situation or his shenanigans, he wasn't a very close friend, or that you are a very naive or novice gambler who tagged along with a major leaguer.

Quote: March58

So last night I sent an email to the host asking to speak with the person who is accusing me of somethign I did not do and also mentiond that its not legal to ban me (per this board comments). He called me back 10 minutes later and said that he talked to the table games guy and that they mixed me up with my friend. Its my friend who they think was counting now, so their story has changed. So, now I'm allowed to come back and play but he is not-yet. I've left a message with the tables guy to speak with him. I told them that we are willing to do whatever it takes, shuffle the deck as often as you want, we really don't care (other than that would be annoying-time consuming). We just like going and having a good time. It seems like they are softening their position. I'm hoping they don't read this board but I guess it doesn't matter.



Well, if you're dealing with the Borgata, or any other major league casino operator, they will figure it out regardless of this board.

Quote: March58

The whole thing is bizzare with their story changing a couple times, banned now not banned etc.



In the gambling world, and with this story, this is an utter understatement.

Quote: March58

I get why someone would question the story, but really I have no reason to make things up. My sole purpose was to see what my rights were in this matter and I thought this board could help and you did. Thank you.


Okay. If you are NOT in cohoots with your friend, and you are on the "up-and-up" - then you're okay. With an Amazing story.
If you are, then you may have trouble playing Blackjack in the United States, regardless of this post. With this kind of money, casino surveillance will eventually know who you really are.


Quote: March58

My friend btw, is an alcoholic. He drinks 10-15 shots while playing blackjack-1 after another, and mixed drinks. There is zero chance he could count in that condition even if he was a counter, so it should be easy for them to figure out that this stretch of winning (small sample) is nothing more than chance. They just have not done their due diligence.


Also okay, but know that $450,000 is QUITE a suspicious mathematical variance. WAY over the radar. I am still increduluous, but cannot turn away from this trip. We all may have to rubberneck on this one. If you are not on the level, then you are William Faulkner or James Baldwin weaving a very tall tale for some gamblers. We are game.....

Quote: March58

We only go there once every month or two so in the grand scheme we could just find another casino. I wish the Revel had a horse book, its my understanding that they dont. I really enjoy Old homestead, great steakhouse. I only play horses, BJ and a few spins on the outside of roulette for quick action, so the other games exciting for me.



Quite a bystander you are, or at least you are best buddies of "Nathaniel Tilton #2," who hasn't filled you in on the deal. If you are without him at a casino, and aside from the stakehouses and race books, do YOU bet $500-$5,000 a hand at Blackjack and crap tables?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:05:03 AM permalink
I have no more reason to doubt the OP's story than I do to believe it--so why would we not just treat it as something that happened and go from there unless the OP is a troll (one post, one wild story) or has been caught in a lie in the past? Some people here spend so much time here trying to tear down stories rather than just answering the questions raised by the OP.

Is it possible this was a "soft" back-off of sorts? The host (maybe not even an employee of the casino, according to earlier posts) told him he was not welcome back based on the fact they couldn't really be banned for alleged card counting and there was some feeling he was an AP. If they just led him down the wrong path and he didn't come back, they would be happy. If he did push the issue, they come up with an excuse and allow him back. Maybe they figured a way to skirt the court ruling in a manner that chases most players they want rid of away.
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 7:07:37 AM permalink
We have known each other for many years, he's not the brightest light on the tree to be honest. He's not pulling one over on me. He's a degenerate who drinks extremely heavily and is lucky to be able to walk back to his room after playing let alone count cards. He was down to his last 1500 bucks when he started his comeback, it literally was just an hour of good luck, which has happened to us before there. I can see from their perspective that they are running a business and even if they can't explain how we are winning (luck) they aren't comfortable with it and chose to take this route. They are idiots as one of the posters mentioned because in the longer run they will get it all back and probably then some as we all know. I'm guessing that its the unknown that they are worried about. I just don't think you can draw conclusions from a handfull of visits. If we are allowed to go back (apparently I am-but what fun is it going alone) they will monitor us closely and I'm sure they will see that we have no skill at all.

Thanks Ron, whatever the subject on bulletin boards that I've been on in the past there is always the agressive poster who doesn't believe you and wants to tear your story down even though the whole point was to get answers as to what my right was not to tell a story!

btw, what is an AP? I hate to ask but I keep seeing it in this thread and have to ask.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:18:55 AM permalink
AP = Advantage player, a mathematically and very gambling experienced gamblers who knows how to 'game' the casino house and its games for illicit profit by their view.

Hearing this story, you sound like an absolute gambling "celestial virgin" who has ridden next to the "Johnny the WADD Holmes" level of gambling porn star, - on a half-million dollar ride through Atlantic City. I am still increduluous. If you're sh]tting us, you're still such a tale-weaver, that I am game.

We know contacts in Atlantic City, and may bother them on this, so fess up one way or the other. If it turns out to be counterfeit (and I think it is 99:1), it is such a hook, line, and sinker deal, I gotta laugh....kind of like buying some print of Rambrandt from "Printmaster lithos, Inc...."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Beethoven9th
Beethoven9th
  • Threads: 75
  • Posts: 5072
Joined: Jul 30, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 7:24:13 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

Obviously there is more to this story than OP is saying. In fact my guess is it's made up entirely.

Obviously the Borgata is well aware it is legally prohibited from barring a blackjack player for playing skillfully. So for the host to tell him he is too skillful for blackjack is ridiculous. I don't believe it happened.

If this really did happen, just go back there and play blackjack. If they escort you off the property you have an easy lawsuit.


My thoughts e
Fighting BS one post at a time!
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 7:27:08 AM permalink
Your story is getting stranger and stranger, March58. Except for places that are notoriously sweaty of any player winning, let alone counting such as El cortez in Vegas, the decision to back off and/or bar a player is not taken lightly by the industry. They are turning away a customer and they are usually very careful to be sure they know their facts. This goes 100x more for high roller players. A casino would want to be 150% sure the player was counting before refusing their play. Now once they do make this decision, and are very very sure of their position, they rarely backtrack. It is very rare that a player can talk them into reversing this decision. Very rare.

Now everything I just said, is for a jurisdiction that allows casinos to bar players. Again, New Jersey does not by state law. This is not an untested law like some jurisdictions, Pa for example. This is the decision of the New Jersey Supreme Court. So do you really think these floorman, pit people and even the casino host, who technically is not an employee, don't know the law? Doing the things that you claim would not only open the casino up to a substantial law suit, but would most likely cost any one of these folks their jobs.

So you really need to get your facts straight. The only way I see that a baring would take place is if you or your alcoholic friend had some behavior issues. Casinos can bar a patron for behavior issues. Constantly spilling drinks, abusive behavior towards other players, urinating in the trash can as Allen Iverson did at Ballys and was banned for. But even behavior issues related to alcohol are mostly overlooked when talking about high roller type players. They can almost do no wrong in the eyes of a casino. So again, your story is becoming increasingly difficult to swallow as is. Either you are confused or leaving out some details or just made the whole thing up.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:28:27 AM permalink
Quote: Beethoven9th

My thoughts entirely. Something about this whole story just doesn't jibe.



99% Horsesh]t, but a joy ride....a doozie.....Atlantic City knows a $25 counter when it sees it. I could comment "a damn near fine attempt at a GFE experience..." Still.....WTH...tell us more yarn if you dare....this girl is working hard.....1,000 Baht short time, 2,000 Baht Long time......gotta love it on some level....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:36:12 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

99% Horsesh]t, but a joy ride....a doozie.....Atlantic City knows a $25 counter when it sees it. Still.....



If you think the story is false, fine. Thing is, they can't ban a $25 or a $25,000 counter strictly for counting cards in AC based on a court ruling mentioned here several times.

The whole industry needs to encourage APs, not ban them. A few will be really good at it and win some money...but a whole bunch will be weekend warriors who will lose their asses. they should consider the good ones "loss leaders"... They can always tighten up or change procedures (auto shuffle, etc.) if they start to lose too much. Cheaters, on the other hand, should be shot on sight.

Of course, the OP never said that he was an AP.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:39:20 AM permalink
We know all this, and all of this aside, we can play with this tall tale, kind of like a trip to Pattaya, Thailand....
.....is it live, or is it Memorex, (or Fourex, or what have you.)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
December 29th, 2012 at 7:40:21 AM permalink
Quote: march58

We have known each other for many years, he's not the brightest light on the tree to be honest. He's not pulling one over on me. He's a degenerate who drinks extremely heavily and is lucky to be able to walk back to his room after playing let alone count cards. He was down to his last 1500 bucks when he started his comeback, it literally was just an hour of good luck, which has happened to us before there. I can see from their perspective that they are running a business and even if they can't explain how we are winning (luck) they aren't comfortable with it and chose to take this route. They are idiots as one of the posters mentioned because in the longer run they will get it all back and probably then some as we all know. I'm guessing that its the unknown that they are worried about. I just don't think you can draw conclusions from a handfull of visits. If we are allowed to go back (apparently I am-but what fun is it going alone) they will monitor us closely and I'm sure they will see that we have no skill at all.

Thanks Ron, whatever the subject on bulletin boards that I've been on in the past there is always the agressive poster who doesn't believe you and wants to tear your story down even though the whole point was to get answers as to what my right was not to tell a story!

btw, what is an AP? I hate to ask but I keep seeing it in this thread and have to ask.



Two unskilled players, one an alcoholic, consistently winning $10k an hour over a one year period has got to raise some eyebrows. What pit do you play at the B?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:45:06 AM permalink
"We won $450,000 at the Borgata counting cards! - Oh! - and By the way, - can someone tell me what an AP is?"
is equal to: "I love you long time. Numbah #1 Solder Boy. You da only one fo' ME...until 6 o'clock. Me a virgin."

Let's end this feeding.....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 7:46:10 AM permalink
I am a bit of a blackjack virgin, only played a few times in my life until this year when I started going to borgata once in a while last year. My friend doesn't even like going that much I ended up having to pursuade him to go. He can't keep track of his number of shots he does let alone count that is 100% certainty.

I don't care if you believe this or not but as I said, the main point of telling the story was to find out what rights I and my friend had concerning the bj ban we were under (now cleared for me but not him yet). Feel free to call your contact, its all true.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 7:47:32 AM permalink
all right, that's it. March58, you call a tax accountant or attorney and find out............

Mike? Mission146?

********************************************************************************************
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 7:48:19 AM permalink
Wherever there is an open seat, and high enough limits.
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 7:49:43 AM permalink
Quote: RonC


The whole industry needs to encourage APs, not ban them. A few will be really good at it and win some money...but a whole bunch will be weekend warriors who will lose their asses. they should consider the good ones "loss leaders"... They can always tighten up or change procedures (auto shuffle, etc.) if they start to lose too much. Cheaters, on the other hand, should be shot on sight.



I applaud your position, RonC. Pretty much mirrors my own. 99.9% of players who are counting or think they are counting either aren't good enough, aren't playing the +EV game that they think they are or are underfunded, which means even if they are playing a winning game, inevitable and normal negative swings will eat them up and spit them out. Of that .1 percent of counters who are playing a winning game (and I suspect that I am being generous with that number), the casino is within it's right to tighten up. But even these players, of which I am one, most of them should fall under the 'insignificant', heading. Tightening up rules and procedures to eliminate most of this .1 %, costs the casino more money than they are saving. The exception would be teams and high limit well financed solo players. If the industry just concentrated on these players as well as cheats, they would be better off and their bottom line would reflect this.

One of the biggest bumps in blackjack numbers in recent years, occurred FOR the casinos in the periods immediately following the release of the movie "21" and the books "bring down the house" and the second book (title escapes me) about the MIT teams. Every yahoo and their brother lost their shirts trying to count cards. The casino industry did so well, they should have funded those projects! lol
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 7:59:41 AM permalink
Wow bees nest was stirred up here I guess. I thank those who responded and took the time to tell me the law, "you can't officially be banned from bj in AC". That was good information and helped me to get the ban lifted (on me). Working on my buddy. I don't know how soft or hard of a banning it was, just that the host told me his table games guy told him to tell me that I was no longer allowed to play BJ at Borgata. That may be a soft ban, I have no idea, I didn't have time to test it as I was going to go this weekend when I was told this information.

If anyone cares to hear how this ends let me know and I'll post more when I find out. Otherwise, its just not worth bickering with the posters who don't believe me. It has sidetracked the question I asked originally. But thats how internet boards go.

thanks again
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
December 29th, 2012 at 8:09:30 AM permalink
Quote: march58

Wherever there is an open seat, and high enough limits.



Could you be any more vague?

They cannot stop you from playing blackjack as long as you are behaving yourself even if they identify you as a card counter. They can toss your drunken buddy for doing any of the things that drunks inevitably do. You say you searched the internet about casinos banning players. I'm surprised the court case concerning Atlantic City didn't pop right up.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
December 29th, 2012 at 8:21:45 AM permalink
Quote: march58

If anyone cares to hear how this ends let me know and I'll post more when I find out.


Actually, yes, we do want to know how it ends up.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 29th, 2012 at 8:24:03 AM permalink
As has been said by others, you can't be forbidden from playing blackjack in AC for reasons of counting. Maybe what they meant by not being welcome is that they aren't going to comp you any longer. I have been given such a soft ban at many places in Vegas, but for reasons other than counting.

Assuming you are just a recreational player, I would let this go and take your business to another casino that will welcome your action.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
march58
march58
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Dec 28, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 8:35:50 AM permalink
Didn't mean to be vague but we really do just look for an open seat where we can sit. We were allowed to do 3000 (pit boss usually says they max is 3000 for them) at most tables even if the sign said 1000. They encouraged us to go the higher limits area, but again its like a morgue up there, I like to have fun when I'm there not go to sleep while playing.....that said, later at night occasionally move into the high limits area where its 6000. Haven't gone above that.

my friend drinks a lot but doesn't spill drinks or offend other players. There really is no reason he's banned, you can take it or leave it but thats the truth.

I did search the internet but found conflicting information, more links said they can't ban you in NJ, but there were a few that said the law changed...thats how I found this board. I also wanted to know if we were banned from bj at other casinos-i.e. is there a list we will be on? That not an issue I think now since I've been cleared but still would like to know.

Wizard you are right, thats what others have told me, that its their loss....but I really like the layout etc.... oh well.

I wasn't just refused comps, I was told flat out, we do not want you to play bj in our casino. That was the direct language. I asked clarification, he did not say to be fair that you are not allowed, he said, we do not want you to play bj, but you can play other games.
AceCrAAckers
AceCrAAckers
  • Threads: 30
  • Posts: 377
Joined: Jul 12, 2011
December 29th, 2012 at 10:51:51 AM permalink
FYI,

It is true that AC casinos cannot ban you for counting cards. At least in New Jersy, counting is not a crime, not cheating, it is only using your brains to get an advantage. Casino do not like advantage players.

Here is where you may get into a problem.
Casino are considered private properties. Go figure. Being a private property they are allowed to ban you from the premise but not from a single game.

A side note. Cocktail waitress are not considered waitress, they are considered entertainers. Hence in Borgata, there are no old female waitress, no fat waitress, no one they consider ugly waitress, or no one with small boobs as waitress. They get around the law by changing what they are called. march58, you can get barred not as a counter but as a trespasser.

Twenty years ago, I did played bj and counted infront of the pit boss and dealer at the Trop. I knew about the law and was not worried. I counted as the cards were coming out of the deck loud and clear. They had 4 deck bj from a shoe at the time. They got rid of the 4 deck bj by the following week. I also had the cut card placed at the 50% of the shoe. The rest of the table was confused why they were constantly shuffling rather than playing out more of the shoe.

Short of telling them you will double a hard twenty everytime, the best thing for you to is walk away from Borgata.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
kewlj
kewlj
  • Threads: 216
  • Posts: 4635
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 11:25:03 AM permalink
Quote: AceCrAAckers


At least in New Jersey, counting is not a crime, not cheating, it is only using your brains to get an advantage. Casino do not like advantage players.



This is actually true everywhere. Despite what PGDan would like, counting is not a crime anywhere (at least in this country). It is not cheating anywhere. No Judge has ever ruled that counting is cheating and many, many have ruled that it is not. What differs is what the casinos are able to due about it.

Quote: AceCrAAckers


Here is where you may get into a problem.
Casino are considered private properties. Go figure. Being a private property they are allowed to ban you from the premise but not from a single game.



This is only partly true. In Nevada and most other places casinos are private clubs. Private property. In New Jersey, the ruling was that they are not private clubs. They are public businesses and that is the basis for why things are handled differently in New Jersey. New Jersey can not ban you from the game, NOR the premise just for counting.

Now in Nevada, that part about banning from the premise is very muddled. The ruling in the Wilkinson case (1978), states that the defendant must be given the opportunity to leave each and every time, before arrest. Even if he/she has been trespassed prior, they still must be given the opportunity to leave, before arrest. Now there have been some lower court rulings recently that seem to contradict this ruling, so the current status is pretty muddled. The higher court ruling (wilkinson case) should stand until the Nevada supreme court changes it.

The problem with these 'muddled' situations is that if you find yourself in this situation, even if you are in the right, it could take a lot of money and time to figure it out difinitively.
thefish2010
thefish2010
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 53
Joined: Dec 24, 2009
December 29th, 2012 at 12:04:19 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

As has been said by others, you can't be forbidden from playing blackjack in AC for reasons of counting. Maybe what they meant by not being welcome is that they aren't going to comp you any longer. I have been given such a soft ban at many places in Vegas, but for reasons other than counting.

Assuming you are just a recreational player, I would let this go and take your business to another casino that will welcome your action.



I suppose they could just tell you that you are not welcome, knowing that there isn't anything they can legally do about it in AC (other than flat bet you and refuse comps). Many, if not most, would assume that "not welcome" means "stay away" which would serve the Borgata's purpose.

It is possible, although unlikely, that they could mistake the two of you as a team. Most places would look at the count each time you entered the game and see if the cards were indeed in the player's favor each time you entered. The more often this happens, the less likely that their accusation is wrong. There are, of course, know-it-all pit bosses that will say "I know it when I see it" just based on the behavior. That, combined with the play records (winning on the vast majority of trips) could be enough to create a situation like this. The reverse could also be true. I assume that casinos routinely run analysis of player records that spot statistically improbable runs of luck to flag suspected AP's. If the OP was flagged, then they saw the "jumping in" behavior and didn't bother actually counting each time, then this situation could occur.

If I were the OP, I'd just fly to Vegas :) .
vendman1
vendman1
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 1034
Joined: Mar 12, 2012
December 29th, 2012 at 12:06:15 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I applaud your position, RonC. Pretty much mirrors my own. 99.9% of players who are counting or think they are counting either aren't good enough, aren't playing the +EV game that they think they are or are underfunded, which means even if they are playing a winning game, inevitable and normal negative swings will eat them up and spit them out. Of that .1 percent of counters who are playing a winning game (and I suspect that I am being generous with that number), the casino is within it's right to tighten up. But even these players, of which I am one, most of them should fall under the 'insignificant', heading. Tightening up rules and procedures to eliminate most of this .1 %, costs the casino more money than they are saving. The exception would be teams and high limit well financed solo players. If the industry just concentrated on these players as well as cheats, they would be better off and their bottom line would reflect this.

One of the biggest bumps in blackjack numbers in recent years, occurred FOR the casinos in the periods immediately following the release of the movie "21" and the books "bring down the house" and the second book (title escapes me) about the MIT teams. Every yahoo and their brother lost their shirts trying to count cards. The casino industry did so well, they should have funded those projects! lol



Just saw this thread..quite a thrill ride. I doubt the OP's story is completely true. It feels like we are missing some/alot of information.

Couldn't agree more with kewlj or RonC in the quote above. Casinos should encourage card counting. Most people can't do it(I've been doing it about 10 years and it's still a work in progress). Most of those who can count, are underfunded and get their bankroll busted by normal swings. Maybe 1 player in 100 who tries to count actually gets it, and can implement it in real life. Maybe 1 in a 1000 is bankrolled/patient/disciplined enough to make it work consisently. I've turned a profit counting every year since 2004..sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. But at no time did I consider quitting my day job to count. It's just not worth the risk to me. So to those on the board who count proffessionally you have my respect. Sorry if that was a hijack.

Back to the OP if he(and his drunk friend) are really up 450K in a year without counting, they are very lucky and should quit now. May I ask how the OP is able to afford 500-6,000 per hand? Especially if the OP's friend is an alcholic and "not the brightest bulb" as he admits, seems incongruous.
  • Jump to: