Banned from blackjack Borgata
Since they deregulated the casinos, they CAN ban you in AC for counting cards and for other reasons. Several people have been banned over the past year as a result. You're not the only one. Talk to gaming or an attorney and they'll give you the low down. As of yet, there haven't been any new test cases before the state court to challenge the new law. The attorney will tell you that it will take a great deal of money to challenge it. In the meantime, they can ban you as they see fit.
-Keyser
There is nothing wrong with the legitimacy of the question nor march58's attitude. It seems like the post got railroaded and that the poster had a pretty negative experience. I'd be pissed too if I posted what may have been a legitimate question and got a series of responses like this.
Even if march58 is full of crap, the question is a valid one.
Quote: KeyserMarch58,
Since they deregulated the casinos, they CAN ban you in AC for counting cards and for other reasons. Several people have been banned over the past year as a result. You're not the only one. Talk to gaming or an attorney and they'll give you the low down. As of yet, there haven't been any new test cases before the state court to challenge the new law. The attorney will tell you that it will take a great deal of money to challenge it. In the meantime, they can ban you as they see fit.
-Keyser
Hi-jack time!
Hey Keyser- C'mon man, PAY UP! You made a bet with Mission146. As an ex-bookie, I know plenty of people that welched. Don't be a scumbag. Do the right thing and pay.
Hi-jack complete.
Quote: KeyserMarch58,
Since they deregulated the casinos, they CAN ban you in AC for counting cards and for other reasons. Several people have been banned over the past year as a result. You're not the only one. Talk to gaming or an attorney and they'll give you the low down. As of yet, there haven't been any new test cases before the state court to challenge the new law. The attorney will tell you that it will take a great deal of money to challenge it. In the meantime, they can ban you as they see fit.
-Keyser
Wow. I had not heard that, Keyser. Just another reason to stay our of that beautiful town. lol If you find yourself in that area, play on the west side of the Delaware river (Pa). :) I am actually not sure deregulation can undue a state supreme court ruling... as you said, it will take a test case to determine that. But why bother when there are other, better, options nearby.
Quote: march58Again, this is my point on all this, who would cut us off when we just ran though a lucky streak. I guess in their eyes they probably think we are doing something but just can't figure it out. Maybe when we increased our bets as we were getting hot it coincided (maybe) with a favorable count, if it was it was pure coincidence.
I thought of that but they've had a whole year to evaluate your play. You can be sure it's been done more than once so the question is why now? You've made your preference for the B quite clear and I don't blame you. It's a nice property but it may be time to look elseware. You should be treated like royalty wherever you play.
Quote: vendman1Just saw this thread..quite a thrill ride. I doubt the OP's story is completely true. It feels like we are missing some/alot of information.
But we don't know it.
And we'll never know it, unless volunteered.
As long as all we're not taking it to real-life action, it isn't critical.
So all we can do without diving into pure guesswork is give advice on or discuss the situation as described by the OP, abstracted from definitive judgment on the subject of it being real or hypothetical.
Unless, or really even if, OP reveals the omitted information.
Quote: Paigowdan99% Horsesh]t, but a joy ride....a doozie.....Atlantic City knows a $25 counter when it sees it. I could comment "a damn near fine attempt at a GFE experience..." Still.....WTH...tell us more yarn if you dare....this girl is working hard.....1,000 Baht short time, 2,000 Baht Long time......gotta love it on some level....
For those confused, "GFE" means "girlfriend experience" translated again means the guy thinks the girl really likes him, is with him, and having sex with him because she likes him, and it isn't about the money he's paying her. They can talk about rocket science and card counting at blackjack as well as what a five star hotel and good steak is like. 1000baht is apx $33.usd and "short time" means exactly that, one "boom boom" and out the door, "long time" means spends the night with you and leaves in the morning after another "session"(Thai girls hate long time with foreigners FYI). The member also mentioned "Pattaya Thailand" in another reply. Pattaya is a lively beach area about two hours southeast of Bangkok with apx. 20,000. ladies(and a few guys plus about 1000 transgender "ladyboys" which Germans like) available for the romantic interludes mentioned above. Card counters are welcome and as long as she controls the TV remote, you can talk about anything. Lies are also considered better than losing face or conflict the truth often creates. All this brought to you free of charge from Pattaya! itself at this very moment!! Naked and alone.
I think its really as simple as the casino taking "soft banning action" because they cannot understanding how we could win with the frequency we did over this year (8-12 visits max). I've explained that we do not cheat, card count or anything of the like. I explained that we are not professionals we have jobs and we use the casino as a place to blow off steam and have a good time. The reasons the betting numbers seem large is because we do have money and in order to get the "thrill" we have to play for what seems like large size to everyone else. This is likely the reason that they were concerned about us, I don't know. I can tell you that after black jack we usually walk over to the roulette table and go table max for a few spins putting our profits on black usually. If we lose the first spin we walk, if we win the first we press. We've won 6 in a row and walked in that game also. Its just luck. Card counters or skilled players don't waste their time on roulette I would assume. I also play heavy on the horses and have lost fairly large the past few times I've gone there, another bonus for them getting the horse action and not having to pay rebates (tiny comps on it).
Quote: march58There is no missing information unless its something that I don't know on the casino end.
You could indeed supply a lot more information that you yourself are aware of:
1. Buy-in amounts.
2. Average bet.
3. Frequency of play.
4. Length of session.
5. Interaction with dealers.
6. Interaction with floormen.
7. Interaction with pit boss/director.
8. Promotions that they'd certainly give to "specialized' players like you and your friend, and some examples.
9. Other games that you've played and enjoy playing.
10. Types of play style ("When on craps, I like to place it across, then do a come bet progresion coming down with odds;" "On Roulette, I bet rows with about five straight up numbers or splits;" "On three card poker, I play $500 on ANTE and PLAY, with $200 on the Pair Plus" etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.)
11. Accounts of AT LEAST A FEW REAL SESSIONS.
12. Your favorite Blackjack tables out of their many Blackjack tables
13. Times of day we would go.
14. How often you have played alone, or without my friend, or with my wife/girldfriend/boyfriend, etc.
15. How often you play slots to balance out the table action.
16. What you've learned about table games over the past year.
17. Your review of the Borgata. Sound like you can write a review of the place for us - like so many board members here do for us on so many places they visit. You do not seem to be at a loss for words.
18. Have you ever tried any other casinos in Atlantic City? - There are numerous casinos in AC
19. How you travel there; (The Borgata's limo that they provide; or my friend's Bentley; or my own Jaguar; the )
20. what the commute is like from Cherry Hill, NJ; or Flemington, NJ; or Boston, MA; or how exactly do you go into AC (Turnpike, Garden State Parkway,Bus from Grand Central Station; the Train - New Jersey Transit/Amtrak; the bus operators on Canal Street in New York City, etc.)
21. The styles of Blackjack play you must have picked up or use (I press on winners; I flat bet; I bet what my friend bets, I use the Wizard's Basic Strategy; I learned and used standard basic strategy from a player's card - etc.)
22. The types of people at the table, and their comments, and how annoyed they get when you take the dealer's bust card at third base [last position] when you play there.
23. Bankrolls ("we started with $200,000, and won the $450,000 on that....." "We started with just $40, and it was just an amazing ride to that $450,000!" or "We'd start with $2,000, our typical session buy-in, and leave with $12,000 on average - every time!" - and what have you, etc.)
24. The problems with the tax forms, anti-money laundering casino regulations, - and all those CTRs (Cash Transaction Reports) that the casino made us go through?
25. What IS your typical session buy-in, BTW?
Just a few things that come to mind.
Quote: March58Thats why I'm so baffled by this whole thing.
You, too eh? Personally, I'd like to think the real gamblers (like we got here) can sniff one out.
Quote: March58I agree we should just quit but again the purpose isn't for us to churn out profits we just go to have fun so the money is not that important.
$450,000 profit in one year? As a naive recreational player who plays with an alcoholic? Is $450,000 extra cash "Not important" in your tax accountant's advice? If you left EVERY session up an average $4,500 EVERY SINGLE TIME then you guys had at least 100 sessions, so you played EIGHT or NINE times a month, EVERY month, - in a year's time, to avoid hassles and tax forms, etc. I'd have a real tough time explaining that to my wife, even 8 times in a year. My wife would think my action is with another lady - and as a gigolo, with that kind of cash profit! Besides, if you ever cashed out more than $10,000, you must have filled out "some forms."
Really, at 8 to 12 times (sessions) then your average win was in the range of $37,500 to $56,000. A LOT of forms to fill out, JUST for the IRS. A Real Casino would have pegged you as a money launderer, since you played at just ONE casino. The first cashout transaction of > $10,000 would have required serious tracking across many casinos....
Quote: March58Thus, I'm fine losing it back but they didn't want to let us!
You're fine with tossing back $450,000 to the casino, but they just don't want it, eh?
Fortunately, the Borgata isn't the only Casino in town in Atlantic City. - And Have you ever tried Las Vegas?
March58, you're just great. Love this thread, very entertaining....talk about 'long time.' You may be giving us the GFE, and as suspect as the whole story is, there is a WIDE and WILLING suspension of disbelief going on here. Wow.....
Quote: March58I think its really as simple as the casino taking "soft banning action" because they cannot understanding how we could win with the frequency we did over this year (8-12 visits max).
I'd say. A man who makes $110,000 can afford to spend or lose $1,000 to $1,200 a month, max, single OR married, and that is pushing it!! Trust me on this one. And playing flat-bet games like BJ or Passline you'd have to risk a LOT more than a $1,000 a month loss to see an upside of $450,000.
Quote: March58I've explained that we do not cheat, card count or anything of the like.
Just really lucky. Card counters and "Pro's" can't usually have a year like this with their skill, immense preperation, mathematical analysis, and training. Can Mike or Eliot or Charles give us a probability on this for a totally clean recreation player?
Quote: March58I explained that we are not professionals we have jobs and we use the casino as a place to blow off steam and have a good time.
I cannot discern what type of work you're in, but it must be really lucrative. My guess is that you guys risked $40,000 per month, and amazingly double it every month for a year straight! Well done! If you risked 10% of your take-home income, then you're making is $400,000 a month, or ~$5 Million a year. We're honored you sought out our advice instead. But Let me say that if I risked $40,000 a month in anything, I'd know a hell of a lot about the venture or activity. An exception to this seems to be athletes.
Quote: March58The reasons the betting numbers seem large is because we do have money and in order to get the "thrill" we have to play for what seems like large size to everyone else.
Again, what are the buy-ins and color-ups?
Quote: March58This is likely the reason that they were concerned about us, I don't know. I can tell you that after black jack we usually walk over to the roulette table and go table max for a few spins putting our profits on black usually. If we lose the first spin we walk, if we win the first we press. We've won 6 in a row and walked in that game also. Its just luck. Card counters or skilled players don't waste their time on roulette I would assume.
Gambling at any game isn't a waste of time for a real gambler. In a way you're saying that card counters and skilled players are not gamblers. anyway, you certainly learned quickly what an AP is - that is good.
Quote: March58I also play heavy on the horses and have lost fairly large the past few times I've gone there, another bonus for them getting the horse action and not having to pay rebates (tiny comps on it).
Do you use the sheets? What tracks do you favor? (Santa Anita, Pimlico, Aqueduct, etc)? Do you download the sheet data directly, or buy the printed "bunches' for $30 a pop? and where can you get the printed sheets in AC? My brother would love to know this, can you share this?
You absolutely will lose it all back and more soon enough, which makes the casino's position for banning you all the more baffling. I'm shocked that a big-time joint like Borgata (which gets a LOT of big play) would back you off for that. You are always going to have players in the tail of the bell curve. But there will always be a bigger offset.
You absolutely will lose it all back and more soon enough, which makes the casino's position for banning you all the more baffling. I'm shocked that a big-time joint like Borgata (which gets a LOT of big play) would back you off for that. You are always going to have players in the tail of the bell curve. But there will always be a bigger offset.
Wasn't there a thread on here recently about the longest cold streak?? From a guy who hates Casinos, those were some painful stories to read. Negative variance happens too....
Quote: march58Ha, I'm about to get hated on but I trade commodities at a hedge fund.
You will not be hated from the gamblers and AP's here. Trade with an advantage!!!
The events are Absolutely possible, but very unlikely. HOW unlikely......is what a real gambler would like to know from all this.
What's troubling is the clear lack of specifics/parameters (aside from a six-bet Roulette session of unknown amounts, the also unkwown and undescribe "Table Maximum" is assumed here), and the lack of a ton of anecdotal description about these wild sessions, which occurred during such an amazing journey.
I am quite convinced most of us are being played like a guitar or a Trombone, - but that too is fascinating to watch and be a part of here.
Very quickly, can March58 tell us at least the table limits he came up against - or were given/extended? I would think that is quite basic, and something he could provide.
That guy in AC won millions is about a couple hours worth of sessions at a few casinos. Variance! (He was not invited back since he was clearly a strong player, although not counting).
Wanna add Archie Karas that ran a borrowed 10k into 15 million and ran hot for months? Poor Archie gave it all back though :-(
I once turned a $100 buy-in at three card poker at Sunset station in five minutes the way March58 claims he did at Roulette in six bets. It happened to me too. I described all the hands, my exact betting amounts on each bet, how much each hand won and exactly how I jumped my bets and what bonuses were won, including the progressive hits, the end of session color-up, and the amount I tipped. I even described my wife's putting all the green chips won in her purse (Sunset paid each win in green, not black!) to the point that the rack was almost out of green, and so we HAD to color up. Even the name of the dealer (Candace). It was a surprising short session win.
While I notice in detail almost every step that turns a $100 buy-in into a 20-fold win, march58's wins are so thinly describe, his journey seems to occur in a vacuum, yet strangely intrigues us. (A RIDICULOUS number of loose ends here with this story, with zero straight answers, c'mom, now!)
We want it to be true, I guess. Or be regaled with a tale, giving us a 'session,' - our GFE, so to speak.
And I use that "GFE" description to denote that we KNOW it's not real, but still pleasurable or entertaining.
Quote: march58I don't know how to play baccarat
You don't have to, as there's no strategy to baccarat. More "play" or "action" from March58 over here on this one.
Quote: Paigowdan
We want it to be true, I guess. Or be regaled with a tale, giving us a 'session,' - our GFE, so to speak.
And I use that "GFE" description to denote that we KNOW it's not real, but still pleasurable or entertaining.
If we could avoid more of the GFE specifics, particularly as it relates to Thailand, I cannot adequately convey how appreciative my stomach would be...
Quote: Mission146If we could avoid more of the GFE specifics, particularly as it relates to Thailand, I cannot adequately convey how appreciative my stomach would be...
You got it, Mission.
I shall heretofore describe this unfolding story as "musical session," where we are playing each other like Guitars - and are enjoying the jam. And I did have to work very hard at avoiding March58's ploy on us using more graphic terms.
Not Knowing "how to play Baccarat" is the latest heard from this half-million dollar casino winner. A beaut, quite a riff.
Quote: thefish2010@Paigowdan: The tone of your posts seem to imply that this kind of thing is impossible. I have personally won $135,000 in a single night with an initial buy-in of $500 playing blackjack in Vegas. I went from playing green chips to chocolates/flags in under 6 hours. For my next trip (and several trips thereafter), I would start with $50K in front money, as I had several trips in a row where I won or essentially broke even at that level. You don't have to be a billionaire to play at these nosebleed levels for quite a while if you happen to have had a single good run that launches your gambling bankroll into that stratosphere.
No - not at all. I've myself have had such sessions, though I describe the details of real gambling sessions. But I've never done it over the course of a year to the tune of about a half-mil.
So....It's now just that this guy is feeding us clues that he's playing us. There should be some - but not NO - real details of such a ride. You're able to describe such things above - and in a tiny paragraph - as the $500 table limit, the $50K front money, the 6-hout time frame, etc. Plausible, with a good and quick break out of some relevant details. You see my point?
Quote: March58Card counters or skilled players don't waste their time on roulette I would assume.
I was banned in AC for roulette. And for what it's worth, skilled roulette players don't waste their time counting cards.
Quote: IbeatyouracesExactly because there are no such people!
Wheel timing Roulette AP....
Quote: KeyserI was banned in AC for roulette. And for what it's worth, skilled roulette players don't waste their time counting cards.
Please send a link to buy the book where you learned to be a dangerous roulette assassin. No doubt an interesting read :) . I predict a new gambling movie...instead of "21" it will be titled "36".
Quote: bigpete88"Ignore barking dog" Wise Man
Paddleball or tennis is fun. Watch the game.
Quote: thefish2010Please send a link to buy the book where you learned to be a dangerous roulette assassin. No doubt an interesting read :) .
Keyser actually wrote the book on biased wheel play.
I have a copy. It was in the late 90's and conditions
were very different then. Ask him a question about
wheels and be prepared to be baffled..
So the guy who won 15 million in a handful of trips over a few months wasn't banned. I wonder why?? The answer of course is because despite the OP's claim that he was banned and Keysers comments stating that New Jersey can now ban players, they actually still can not ban players. I have contacted several players that play for a living that I network with that play AC regularly and none of them have heard anything about a change in New Jerseys banning procedures. Deregulation simply changed who is enforcing the rules from the CCC to the DGE. The law is still the law until the NJ supreme court reverses itself.
I only go back to this part of the discussion about banning because knowing that this part of the OP's post is erroneous, makes it difficult to accept any of the rest of it. At least it does for me.
Maybe another problem I am having is with the numbers involved. I took a few minutes this afternoon and added up my earnings from 9 years of supporting myself from blackjack advantage play and my 9 year total comes in below this 450K mark. Very close, but just below. Yikes! No wonder I am having a hard time grasping this number. lol
One other though I had during the reading of this thread. The OP, march, was talking about why he 'needs' to bet such large amounts, to get the excitement rush. Sir, that is the exact description of a degenerate gambler. If your story is legit, based on that statement, you could have a real problem. Be careful.
Quote: thefish2010Please send a link to buy the book where you learned to be a dangerous roulette assassin. No doubt an interesting read :) . I predict a new gambling movie...instead of "21" it will be titled "36".
That is a funny theme for a movie but remember Billy Walters team banged a AC Casino for millions with a biased Roulette wheel. Has to have a heck of a bias to fade 5.26% with the double green.
My vote goes for a new AP movie however. Make the Casino out to be the bad guy for barring. "Ace of Hearts" Script already written, by me.
Comments from stiff casino suits will not be responded to...ha ha
Quote: EvenBobKeyser actually wrote the book on biased wheel play.
I have a copy. It was in the late 90's and conditions
were very different then. Ask him a question about
wheels and be prepared to be baffled..
Bob, One of the old-school execs I know and work with specialized in gaffed-like Roulette on both sides. And by gaffed-like I mean out-of-kilter/neglected wheels that develop a bias, especially with an exact "robotic" dealer who spins every spin in a very similar fashion.
Quote: KewljSo the guy who won 15 million in a handful of trips over a few months wasn't banned. I wonder why?? The answer of course is because despite the OP's claim that he was banned and Keysers comments stating that New Jersey can now ban players, they actually still can not ban players. I have contacted several players that play for a living that I network with that play AC regularly and none of them have heard anything about a change in New Jerseys banning procedures. Deregulation simply changed who is enforcing the rules from the CCC to the DGE. The law is still the law until the NJ supreme court reverses itself.
You are incorrect. They can ban you. So you haven't heard it second hand through your "so called friends that play for a living". So what. In the meantime, I have, as have others, experienced it first hand. You probably haven't heard of it, simply because you, and your friends haven't spent much time in the casinos. ( By the way, I don't believe for one minute that anyone is earning a living by counting cards. The only people making a living from BJ are sort players, hole carding teams, and ace slicers).
Regarding roulette advantage players, you can read about them on them on the wheel engineer for TSC Huxley's website, or in/on some encyclopedias. Back in the 80s in Europe, the wheel watchers likely won more from the roulette tables than the card counters won.
-Keyser
Quote: march58Just to clarify the 450k total this year was for both of us as I said early, not just me.
More information.....The host said he talked with "table games guys" and they said their software detected that I was counting. They said that because my friend sat on the other end of the table from me (those were the seats that were available to us duh) that it raised suspicion that we were working as a team. They also sighted the fact that sometimes my friend got to the table first and then I came in (I was in the horse book more often) and started playing.
So last night I sent an email to the host asking to speak with the person who is accusing me of somethign I did not do and also mentiond that its not legal to ban me (per this board comments). He called me back 10 minutes later and said that he talked to the table games guy and that they mixed me up with my friend. Its my friend who they think was counting now, so their story has changed. So, now I'm allowed to come back and play but he is not-yet. I've left a message with the tables guy to speak with him. I told them that we are willing to do whatever it takes, shuffle the deck as often as you want, we really don't care (other than that would be annoying-time consuming). We just like going and having a good time. It seems like they are softening their position. I'm hoping they don't read this board but I guess it doesn't matter.
The whole thing is bizzare with their story changing a couple times, banned now not banned etc. I get why someone would question the story, but really I have no reason to make things up. My sole purpose was to see what my rights were in this matter and I thought this board could help and you did. Thank you.
My friend btw, is an alcoholic. He drinks 10-15 shots while playing blackjack-1 after another, and mixed drinks. There is zero chance he could count in that condition even if he was a counter, so it should be easy for them to figure out that this stretch of winning (small sample) is nothing more than chance. They just have not done their due diligence.
We only go there once every month or two so in the grand scheme we could just find another casino. I wish the Revel had a horse book, its my understanding that they dont. I really enjoy Old homestead, great steakhouse. I only play horses, BJ and a few spins on the outside of roulette for quick action, so the other games exciting for me.
I'll say it again -- if everything that you say is true, these guys are morons. You should learn how to count so that you can take more of these idiots' money. You are clearly bankrolled for it :)
