Guns, concealed carry, and home defense
Quote: pacomartinA simple proficiency test at a gun club. At the very minimum you have to show up ten times and shoot at a target for an hour. You have to demonstrate to someone that you know how to clean a gun, and that you can pass a written test just like you pass a written test to get a driver's license.
I am under the impression that some of these guys hardly even shoot the guns. Maybe they take them to a field somewhere just to make sure a bullet comes out when they pull a trigger. But the first time they use them is on a crowd of people.
This is an interesting thought. As I said before, I'm very against limiting guns. I think it's already way too difficult as it is (keep in mind, I'm in NY) and I'm not a fan of the "no-auto" laws most states have in place. But I like to keep an open mind about things, and I'm interested in where paco's going with this.
The question is, how would the things you mentioned, both the quantity vs time aspect, and the training aspect, prevent the bad while not harming the good? I personally wouldn't be terribly against the quantity vs time idea, but then again, I'm poor. I've no reason to buy an AR, a revolver, a semi auto pistol, etc within a few years let alone within a week. And my ammo purchases max out at one crate, which I only buy because it's cheaper than boxing it out. But, some collectors buy as they see, and I know I would too if I won the lottery. Imagine a collector comes across a mint Navy Colt that some old lady is selling for $100, but alas, they've already reached their "quota". Or like my Pops with the bunk used .17. You buy a gun and find it's faulty or even that it doesn't quite fit your bill, but too bad, now you're stuck. Or that I can't save money buying crates because it's over the limit. These limits I'm not a fan of.
Likewise for your training idea. I love the idea, and as you've seen in this thread and others, I always encourage new gun owners to enroll in as much training as possible. But again, what of a guy like me? My required training to obtain my permit, which was completely pointless, still ran $100. Someone in this thread supplied other contacts, and they run about $200 a day. A proper training session all told is easily over a grand, probably more like several, and that prices guys like me right out of the game. And then there's guys who are former force, former military, farm boys that were born with a gun in their hand, guys who really don't need it, but are forced to shovel thousands into something pointless because of the government. We have enough of that already.
I like the ideas. It's the enacting them in a positive way that's the problem.
Were the weapons bought face-to-face?
Quote: 98Clubs6000 rounds of ammo by internet sales, I thought that would have to be face-to-face.
Were the weapons bought face-to-face?
I believe the only way to buy a gun sight unseen is to have
a federal firearms license.
Quote: pacomartinA simple proficiency test at a gun club. At the very minimum you have to show up ten times and shoot at a target for an hour. You have to demonstrate to someone that you know how to clean a gun, and that you can pass a written test just like you pass a written test to get a driver's license.
I am under the impression that some of these guys hardly even shoot the guns. Maybe they take them to a field somewhere just to make sure a bullet comes out when they pull a trigger. But the first time they use them is on a crowd of people.
I don't think this will serve your intended purpose. I have a house full of guns, I'm also not a criminal, but I have never bought a gun that is registered in my name. I also don't have a concealed carry permit and don't want one. Here in Texas you can buy pretty much anything you want if you just look.
I belong to a gun club so I know how to use them all. Other members are where I've bought most of them. I'm more than a little paranoid of the government knowing what I have or don't have. It's none of their damn business. I'm not afraid of them wanting to confiscate them or anything, at least, not today. I just feel like it is one of my freedoms and it's none of their business if I exercise it or not.
sorry to have to use answers/yahoo, but IMO the following is accurate.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100626143039AAIVbUH
Quote: pacomartinA simple proficiency test at a gun club. At the very minimum you have to show up ten times and shoot at a target for an hour. You have to demonstrate to someone that you know how to clean a gun, and that you can pass a written test just like you pass a written test to get a driver's license.
I can see how this would help. Let's set up two hypothetical cases:
1) A man wants a gun for self-defense because someone's stalking him, or sending him death threats. Surely a delay of, oh, a week and a half at least, won't be a problem.
2) The next homicidal maniac will know better how not to get his gun to jam, and will be a better shot. I can see how that would help.
Here's the thing. In Mexico there are tons of restrictions against guns. You can only buy a few select models, you need permission to even buy one, you can't carry them unloaded in your car without a special permit, you can't carry a loaded weapon anywhere for any reason. In Canada gun laws, I understand, are not too different from those in the US. Mexico has a higher murder rate than the US, and Canada a smaller one.
What's the connetcion? Is there a connection?
(this is a glib response).
Quote: thecesspitCanadian live in fear of their wild life, Americans live in fear of each other.
(this is a glib response).
There aren't enough Canadians to make anybody afraid. Ay?
Quote: EvenBobThere aren't enough Canadians to make anybody afraid. Ay?
Hopefully it'll stay that way.
Quote: EvenBobThere aren't enough Canadians to make anybody afraid. Ay?
Hopefully it'll stay that way.
Quote: Nareed2) The next homicidal maniac will know better how not to get his gun to jam, and will be a better shot. I can see how that would help.
Here's the thing. In Mexico there are tons of restrictions against guns. You can only buy a few select models, you need permission to even buy one, you can't carry them unloaded in your car without a special permit, you can't carry a loaded weapon anywhere for any reason. In Canada gun laws, I understand, are not too different from those in the US. Mexico has a higher murder rate than the US, and Canada a smaller one.
What's the connetcion? Is there a connection?
I recognize that there seems to be a disconnect in what I am saying. It sounds like I am saying that the government should force the potential homicidal maniac to learn how to aim, fire rapidly, care for his gun, know how to hit a moving target, etc. What I am saying is that this particular type of homicidal maniac won't take the time. He just buys as many guns as he can, and fires them at easy targets.
But rampage killers are not about statistics. Even in relatively peaceful Colorado, there are still 120 murders a year.
Mexico has less of a problem with rampage killers. But there are states in Mexico, particularly Chihuahua and Sinaloa with shockingly high murder rates. Mexico has a problem with sadistic brutal henchmen that work for cartels. In Chihuahua one person in a thousand is murdered, more than twice the rate of Detroit.
Quote: pacomartinA simple proficiency test at a gun club. At the very minimum you have to show up ten times and shoot at a target for an hour. You have to demonstrate to someone that you know how to clean a gun, and that you can pass a written test just like you pass a written test to get a driver's license.
I completely agree. I had to take 3 NRA classes over 3 weekends when I got my CPL in WA in 2003. Eight hours on Saturday, and eight again on Sunday for 3 weekends over 3 months. Lots of class instruction and Q&A sessions, field practice with multiple firearms, range etiquette, etc. Completely worth it. Our forefathers knew how to shoot, but now society thinks it's an unnecessary danger. It's something everyone should learn, just like driving.
Why weren't any audience members carrying in that theater? Holmes should've been dropped right away if there were.
Quote: pacomartinWhat I am saying is that this particular type of homicidal maniac won't take the time. He just buys as many guns as he can, and fires them at easy targets.
You hope.
Besides, he can get as many guns as he wants in the black market that would flourish under such a system
Quote:Mexico has less of a problem with rampage killers. But there are states in Mexico, particularly Chihuahua and Sinaloa with shockingly high murder rates. Mexico has a problem with sadistic brutal henchmen that work for cartels. In Chihuahua one person in a thousand is murdered, more than twice the rate of Detroit.
I'll take the occasional rampage killer over the constant mass executions. And just you wait til the cartels thugs find out they can get extra money selling their guns.
Quote: pacomartinWe are not talking about "criminals" in the classic sense. Criminals may be vicious, psychologically unbalanced, but they are usually operating in some sense that they think they can get away with something and profit. I am talking about the handful of people who are operating under extreme fantasy of superhuman power and delusion. They also might be suicidal since many of these rampages end with the shooter either killing himself, or making it nearly impossible for the police not to shoot them.
You are confusing two different issues.
I respectfully disagree.I may be mistaken, but I thought the term criminal would also include the criminally insane.
I get uncomfortable if the closet has fewer than about 10K - per caliber. I've order 5K at a time. Nobody bats an eye. It's just not that big a deal unless you're a reporter for the NY Times.
Quote: pacomartinA simple proficiency test at a gun club. At the very minimum you have to show up ten times and shoot at a target for an hour. You have to demonstrate to someone that you know how to clean a gun, and that you can pass a written test just like you pass a written test to get a driver's license.
Nevada has a live-fire "proficiency test" for CCW. It's laughable compared to real training.
Maybe we should inspect how clean your keyboard is before we allow you to post on internet forums.
It'd be like painting the Mona Lisa with tiny microscopic threads running all through the paint. Once you made a record of the entire thread pattern it would be easy to identify the original even if you only had tiny pieces from different areas. You could show that the tiny pieces exactly match the original and have the same pigments on top, and forgeries would be difficult.
I'm not sure how it would stop shootings, but it would make gun identification unique and you wouldn't need serial numbers for legal guns. Ah, so anyway...
what i would expect of an honest citizen. With freedom comes responsibilities.
Quote: rxwineIf you could manufacture guns with an additional material, in the form or specks or microscopic threads that permeate the metal from tip of the barrel to the last piece of metal in the pistol grip, every gun would have a unique signature on manufacture, that couldn't be removed without chopping the gun to extremely tiny pieces or melting it.
It'd be like painting the Mona Lisa with tiny microscopic threads running all through the paint. Once you made a record of the entire thread pattern it would be easy to identify the original even if you only had tiny pieces from different areas. You could show that the tiny pieces exactly match the original and have the same pigments on top, and forgeries would be difficult.
I'm not sure how it would stop shootings, but it would make gun identification unique and you wouldn't need serial numbers for legal guns. Ah, so anyway...
I'm pretty sure forensics can already do this. No gun is made exactly the same, they have a different amount of rounds made from different manufacturers through them, they have different strokes of wire brush through them, you get the idea. In fact, when selling a brand new gun directly received from the manufacturer, one must fire a round from the gun and submit the casing to the State before selling it to a private party (at least this is the case for NY handguns)
Quote: buzzpaffI agree. Let's not make law enforcement work so hard. If you are not posting anything you are ashamed off, then embedding is
what i would expect of an honest citizen. With freedom comes responsibilities.
Glad I don't live in your country.
Quote: FaceIn fact, when selling a brand new gun directly received from the manufacturer, one must fire a round from the gun and submit the casing to the State before selling it to a private party (at least this is the case for NY handguns)
Yeah. Commonly known as "Ballistic Fingerprinting."
While matching evidence at a crime scene to a specific, known gun (such as a recovered murder weapon) is sound science. Broad "ballistic fingerprinting" databases have yet to help solve even one crime.
Quote: QuadDeucesGlad I don't live in your country.
My mistake. I thought you were a USA citizen.
Looks like there's regular job openings in AFTE skills.
http://www.afte.org/forum/smf1/index.php?board=33.0
Always interesting what you find on the Internets.
Quote: QuadDeucesRight. And you shouldn't be able to post a file or image to the internet without your real name and address being embedded in it so "Law Enforcement" can track you down.
This is already done. It's called geotagging. Every pic taken with a smartphone gets microscopic info embedded in the metadata, like serial number of the phone for user tracking, time and date photo was taken, and GPS coordinates and even altitude, embedded in it, even when it's cropped for web uploading. This was perfect for capturing a creep who was bragging on child porn chatrooms about a girl he was molesting, and then he posted pics of her dressing. Feds were able to find the address of the house, identify the girl, and arrest her stepfather for abuse. Read about it Wired.
Same thing happens for all Xerox copiers to keep criminals from copying currency, store coupons, passports, postage stamps and such. Every copy is easily identified by tiny patterns of yellow dots only discernible under a loupe.
Quote: rxwineIf you could manufacture guns with an additional material, in the form or specks or microscopic threads that permeate the metal from tip of the barrel to the last piece of metal in the pistol grip, every gun would have a unique signature on manufacture, that couldn't be removed without chopping the gun to extremely tiny pieces or melting it.
There already is a unique signature for every gun. It's called rifling.
The striker also leaves an identifiable but less perfect signature on the brass.
Geeks comprise far less than 1% of all criminals. If your disposal of a gun involves anything more complex than wiping the prints, taking it apart and throwing the pieces away, you count as a geek. Actually, if it involves throwing the pieces away separately, you already count as a geek.
And someone taking steps that would defeat conventional identification will take steps that defeat these impractically expensive measures anyway. How? Well, like going the literal extra mile to throw the gun away in a less obvious location than the nearest storm drain.
As for destruction, it's totally irrelevant, since equipment level capable of destroying rifling can be used to destroy these ubermeasures as well. Not that it matters much. Gun->shooter is the hardest link to prove, since courier boys didn't present a box of enforcers' ID cards to the black market dealer when arranging an exchange of a fleet of stolen cars for his bulk shipment of submachines from Bolivia (that don't have any magic threads anyway, since Bolivian extralegal manufacturers can neither afford that special equipment, nor, truth be told, give their butthole's daily produce about US laws requiring it).
Quote: zippyboyThis is already done. It's called geotagging. Every pic taken with a smartphone gets microscopic info embedded in the metadata, like serial number of the phone for user tracking, time and date photo was taken, and GPS coordinates and even altitude, embedded in it, even when it's cropped for web uploading.Wired.
Nope. There is overt metadata that can be disabled/stripped. You'll have to provide proof of anything surreptitiously and steganographically encoded.
Quote: P90
And someone taking steps that would defeat conventional identification will take steps that defeat these impractically expensive measures anyway. How? Well, like going the literal extra mile to throw the gun away in a less obvious location than the nearest storm drain.
Well, there is one conviction from the database. And the gun was never found as well so throwing it away isn't necessrily going to save someone once their girlfriend was connected with buying the missing gun.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19876-2005Apr1.html
The state of Wisconsin issued 700,000 hunting permits this year. 700,000 armed Americans will be hitting the woods come fall. This "army" of hunters, if considered an actual army, would be the 17th largest army in the world. Texas puts about 1.1 million hunters afield. These two states combined crack the top ten, just behind China. If you combine all states, there's some 14+ million armed Americans in the woods every season, making it the largest army in the world, some 5 times that of the US and 5 million more than the current number one, North Korea.
Discussions here about the Second Ammendment raise good points, and I always thought (even though I'm very pro-gun) that the anti-gunners made an interesting point about the 2nd being about "militia", in that back in the day, citizens were to be the militia. Nowadays, that's not exactly true.
But, isn't there something to this? 14 million armed and trained hunters, plus countless millions of others that own and carry... do you think that adds to National Security at all? When Canada finally decides to occupy, do you think they'll think only of the US militia, or does the private citizen also hold some clout?
Quote: FaceWhen Canada finally decides to occupy, do you think they'll think only of the US militia, or does the private citizen also hold some clout?
Ja Ja Ja
Do you remember the novel from the 1950's about the Grand Duchy of Fenwick declaring war on the USA, to get their infrastructure rebuilt when they lose, and through some odd twists, the USA ends up surrendering to them?
Canada actually owes it's creation as a nation to the threat of the United States. Britain was convinced (probably correctly) that when the USA recovered from the civil war it would invade Canada. The solution was to make Canada a nation instead of a colony. The UK felt that the USA would respect the borders of a nation.
Nice gun.
Unless the zombies come. Then all bets are off.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI started a new job today! As soon as I clear my first paycheck, going to go shopping for a handgun. Originally I was looking at something in the .40S&W caliber, but after reconsidering I've decided to stick with a 9mm piece, just for the simple fact that I need a lot of practice and the ammo will be cheaper! Also, I doubt it will be my first gun, so there will be time for something bigger. Currently thinking about a 4th gen Glock 17. The full-size is hard to conceal, obviously, but now that I'm a working man again I'll be schlepping my man bag (*cough* satchel) around to work and back, so I may be able to keep it in there. Even if that doesn't work, like I said before, plenty of time to move up in the world. I'm not going to carry until I feel 100% comfortable with my skills anyway, so I have plenty of time to worry about it.
Unless the zombies come. Then all bets are off.
Gen 3 is a better gun than the Gen 4 IMO
Quote: vert1276Gen 3 is a better gun than the Gen 4 IMO
From my admittedly short testing sessions, I liked the mag release on the gen 4 over the gen 3. What would be your opinion on the gen 3 over the gen 4?
The Mouse That Roared focus on the fact while other nations vanquish their foes, the USA gives money to rebuild them, fools that we are.
Quote: AcesAndEightsFrom my admittedly short testing sessions, I liked the mag release on the gen 4 over the gen 3. What would be your opinion on the gen 3 over the gen 4?
it just that the Gen 3's are rock solid and when the 4's came out they had problem after problem with them....
Quote: vert1276it just that the Gen 3's are rock solid and when the 4's came out they had problem after problem with them....
Ah okay, good data point. I'll keep that in mind.
Quote: rxwinehttp://imgur.com/zipuu
Nice gun.
I wonder where she keeps the magazine.
Quote: AcesAndEightsFrom my admittedly short testing sessions, I liked the mag release on the gen 4 over the gen 3. What would be your opinion on the gen 3 over the gen 4?
The gen4 guns have extraction issues in the 9mm models. They've issued two revisions/reccalls but it isn't fixed. Im Still seeing a high rate of malfunctions in my classes. I'm a huge glock booster, but stick to gen 3 in 9mm.
That said, 9mm is the right choice.
handgun. It covers everything and in great detail.
Look at the site while you're there. There is a ton
of good info for men there, you're bound to learn
something worthwhile.
http://artofmanliness.com/2012/09/26/guide-to-concealed-carry/
Quote: EvenBobThis is a super article on how to carry a concealed handgun.
A gun for Barbie?
Woman meets dealer who is muscling in on her territory.
Instant Attraction.
Gets into his van for instant gratification.
Afterwards still decides to do what she came there for...
so she draws a small pistol and Dealer contemptuously comments
"that is a .22"
Woman: "Yeah, but look where I've aimed it".
Dealer turns deadly pale with fear.
guy who's a really bad shot, or has seen too
many Steven Segal movies.
$300 22 caliber pistol in belt buckle
THIS IS A NEW IN BOX NORTH AMERICAN ARMS 22LR MINI REVOLVER WITH THE BELT BUCKLE. THE GUN IS AN ALL STAINLESS STEEL 5 SHOT SINGLE ACTION MINI REVOLVER WITH A 1 1/8" BARREL AND ROSEWOOD GRIPS. IT COMES WITH A FACTORY BELT BUCKLE THAT HOLDS THE GUN.
Are these things really useful for self defense? What if you some kid runs up to you and grabs this gun out of your belt. Are you responsible?
A .22 isn’t a manstopper. Better than nothing, but just no.
Unless you wear an untucked long shirt, you’re going to run into legal problems in many states, and a hassling from LEOs in most others.
I had a gun about that size, a 6 shot Derringer that shot .22SR. It was bitch to manipulate, just too small for man hands.
How’s it secured? Well enough to stay put while being easy to release? I can’t suss it out from the pic.
I’d say it’s mostly a fashion accessory or conversation piece. I wouldn’t fault someone for carrying it, but as a serious SD measure? That’s just nonsense.
Laws vary, but yeah, you can be charged with a crime if your gun falls into the wrong hands and is used for misdeeds. I’m sure most states would at least nick you for child endangerment or some kind of negligence, if not something more serious.
Edit: I'm not sure which is more absurd. It's too close to call.
