Guns, concealed carry, and home defense
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: WizardBe careful with your Hawaiian shirt and Darth Vader uniform comments. I just got my license to carry a concealed weapon today, and I just might be packing on Saturday.
Congrats Wiz, and also what a coincidence as I just got my WA state CPL (Concealed Pistol License is what they call it here) yesterday. Although according to this graph (not guaranteeing it's accurate), that wouldn't allow me to carry in NV. I don't even own a handgun yet though, I'm still test-shooting a bunch of stuff and trying to find out what's the best fit for me. If you don't mind me asking, what is going to be your regular carry gun?
I'm back at home and decided to start a new thread. One of my new year's resolutions this year was to exercise my 2nd amendment rights. I shot guns occasionally growing up but didn't feel entirely comfortable just going out and buying one, so I took a 2 night "Introductory Handgun" course at a local shooting range that covered basic gun safety, handling, marksmanship, etc. I'm now trying to decide what to purchase. I've gone back twice to rent some of their guns and test fire them. I think I've decided on getting an XDM .40S&W as my first gun. It's a little bulky to carry, but I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying concealed right now anyway. Later on I may get something a bit more compact, like a Glock 19 or Glock 23, or one of the XDM compact models.
Anyway, generic thread for gun discussions: anyone else a gun enthusiast? What do you have? Any other concealed-carry folks on the board?
at WoVcon, but we've heard no stories of any gun play
yet.
"Introductory Handgun" courses, by and large (and IMO) are severely lacking. It's a good start, but most people stop right there. Please don't stop there. Get to the range, get with other shooters, learn the ins and outs of carrying and operation. IMO, you shouldn't carry "semi-seriously". If you're not serious, you shouldn't carry at all.
Let's start with the purchase. There's a million types of guns, in all calibers, frame sizes, applications, etc. First question, what are your plans for it? A city boy looking for protection can get away with guns X-Z, but a country bumpkin like myself who doesn't have to worry about complete concealment and needs a gun big enough for bear might need guns A-C. Match the gun to your purpose.
I currently have 5 handguns, and every one has a purpose. My main protection weapon is a Glock 22RTF tactical model in .40cal. This is my everyday carry. I spend a lot of time in the woods and it's big enough to make sure I come home from a bear encounter, and since it's a Glock, I don't have to worry much about weather. It's mostly composite, so rain doesn't hurt it, and since it has so few working parts and is easy to disassemble and clean, I don't have to worry about getting it dirty. Hiking, fishing, hunting, 4wheeling, I never have to worry.
The drawback is it's full sized and I have difficulty in complete concealment. That's no problem in the woods, but what about the city? For the city, I have an AMT MAGII in .22mag. All I have to worry about is people, and a .22mag, although "small", will give pause to any would be assailant. Plus it's quite a bit smaller than my Glock and I can conceal it easily in an inside-the-waistband holster, in a hoody pouch, or even a jacket pocket.
Whatever you choose, once you get it, Shoot It A Lot. Handgun shooting is a difficult skill, one that will take 1,000's of rounds to get comfortable with (that reminds me, buy a caliber you can afford to shoot a lot of ;)) Look at Protection shooting as graduate level Handgun shooting. Practice often, and in as many ways as possible. Fire from standing, fire from side, fire one handed, fire from kneel, fire from prone. Practice drawing from holster and firing with an empty gun. Practice cocking the gun with one hand. Take it apart and put it back together. Your gun should feel as common in use as a ballpoint pen.
This is kind of broad, so feel free to ask follow up questions. I love talking guns. You might even pull ol' vert out of the woodwork and get him posting again ;)
Quote: FaceWhere to begin?
"Introductory Handgun" courses, by and large (and IMO) are severely lacking. It's a good start, but most people stop right there. Please don't stop there. Get to the range, get with other shooters, learn the ins and outs of carrying and operation. IMO, you shouldn't carry "semi-seriously". If you're not serious, you shouldn't carry at all.
Let's start with the purchase. There's a million types of guns, in all calibers, frame sizes, applications, etc. First question, what are your plans for it? A city boy looking for protection can get away with guns X-Z, but a country bumpkin like myself who doesn't have to worry about complete concealment and needs a gun big enough for bear might need guns A-C. Match the gun to your purpose.
I currently have 5 handguns, and every one has a purpose. My main protection weapon is a Glock 22RTF tactical model in .40cal. This is my everyday carry. I spend a lot of time in the woods and it's big enough to make sure I come home from a bear encounter, and since it's a Glock, I don't have to worry much about weather. It's mostly composite, so rain doesn't hurt it, and since it has so few working parts and is easy to disassemble and clean, I don't have to worry about getting it dirty. Hiking, fishing, hunting, 4wheeling, I never have to worry.
The drawback is it's full sized and I have difficulty in complete concealment. That's no problem in the woods, but what about the city? For the city, I have an AMT MAGII in .22mag. All I have to worry about is people, and a .22mag, although "small", will give pause to any would be assailant. Plus it's quite a bit smaller than my Glock and I can conceal it easily in an inside-the-waistband holster, in a hoody pouch, or even a jacket pocket.
Whatever you choose, once you get it, Shoot It A Lot. Handgun shooting is a difficult skill, one that will take 1,000's of rounds to get comfortable with (that reminds me, buy a caliber you can afford to shoot a lot of ;)) Look at Protection shooting as graduate level Handgun shooting. Practice often, and in as many ways as possible. Fire from standing, fire from side, fire one handed, fire from kneel, fire from prone. Practice drawing from holster and firing with an empty gun. Practice cocking the gun with one hand. Take it apart and put it back together. Your gun should feel as common in use as a ballpoint pen.
This is kind of broad, so feel free to ask follow up questions. I love talking guns. You might even pull ol' vert out of the woodwork and get him posting again ;)
Awesome, I was hoping there would be a few enthusiasts lurking around here, thanks Face!
I've gotten very similar advice from everyone else and I agree with everything you said. I got the CPL now just because I wanted to have it, but I definitely won't be carrying until I'm 100% comfortable with it. I will definitely be getting further instruction, but most courses beyond the "introduction" (at least at my range) require you to have your own weapon, so I've been trying to figure out what to buy. And I will definitely shoot it a lot, once I have it.
if you draw the gun at close quarters and hesitate for even a half second
it can very easily be taken away from you and used against you.
gun disarm
also, be aware of research that finds that carrying a gun increases your likelihood of being killed by 400%+
just like this one. He carries it his pants pocket and it
can't go off because its a revolver. He knew a lot of
wiseguys in NYC in the 50's and 60's and he says thats
what they carried. You can carry 2 or 3 of them and they're
so small nobody knows you have them. He says carrying
big handguns in shoulder holsters is movie stuff. You want
a gun for close quarters that won't make a lot of noise.
Quote: rainmanIf your buget allows for it take your brand new gun to a smith and have him tell you what he can do to improve the performance.
This is true. My Sheriff buddy used to shoot competitively. His $500 shelf bought .45 had $6,000 worth of customization put into it. You can do so much to them. Of course, this was for hitting quarter sized bullseyes at 100+ yards, which is WAY out of the realm of anything you'd shoot in the course of protection.
I hope I didn't imply that you shouldn't get the gun now. In fact, in NY, after you go through the 2 year, several hundred dollar process to get a CPL, you HAVE to buy a gun within 30days or forfeit the license.
I'm not terribly familiar with the XDM, but you will run into concealment issues with the full sized unless, like me, you live off the map. I'm not saying to not buy it, but (and this probably won't be a problem) you might need to get another to suit your needs down the road. I imagine after a while you'll want another one anyways ;)
A .40's not bad, can handle just about anything in the continental US and is relatively cheap, just one cent a round more expensive than a 9mm. The .45 is closer to 5 cents more, and my 10mm is just an incredible pain in the rear to even find, let alone afford. Luckily for my checkbook, my .44mag is too big for almost everything and I'm spared the dollar-per-round fee of playing with it ;)
Quote: EvenBobI have a friend in his 70's who carries a .22 mini revolver
just like this one. He carries it his pants pocket and it
can't go off because its a revolver. He knew a lot of
wiseguys in NYC in the 50's and 60's and he says thats
what they carried. You can carry 2 or 3 of them and they're
so small nobody knows you have them. He says carrying
big handguns in shoulder holsters is movie stuff. You want
a gun for close quarters that won't make a lot of noise.
You almost brought me to tears, EB. My grandpa had an old Derringer that looked very similar to that. About the size of my palm in .22 short, a break action, 7 shot revolver. He bought it for $1.20 in 1940. Had it all these years and gave it to me last year, I was so pumped. I also had an old .32mag I got from my late now-ex father-in-law. In the divorce, I offered the .32 back to my wife, since it was her dad's. I told her "TAKE THE ONE IN THE HOLSTER" (that was the .32). and what does she do, she takes the gun in the bag (My grandpa's Derringer). She gave it back to her mom, and her mom, being an (expletive deleted), THREW IT IN THE GARBAGE!!
Had similar situation in downtown Baltimore many years ago. Martial arts guy at work had me carry rolled up sports section of newspaper. Rolled tight enough to act like a stick and aim for the adam's apple. Never had to, thank God.
17 in the clip, 1 in the chamber. Just over 2lbs.
special. You can't beat this gun. Will shoot just as fast as
an automatic, and the history is amazing. Used on police
forces around the world for a hundred years, I love this gun.
Like they say, if you can't get it done in the first 3 shots,
you're screwed anyway.
Quote: EvenBobI have this 9mm Taurus in my office for home protection.
17 in the clip, 1 in the chamber. Just over 2lbs.
Don't you mean I have one just like this one in my office?
Quote: kenarman
Don't you mean I have one just like this one in my office?
Why would I take a pic of my gun when I can
find the model on the net in 10sec? I bet they're
identical. Wanna bet?
Quote: EvenBobWhy would I take a pic of my gun when I can
find the model on the net in 10sec? I bet they're
identical. Wanna bet?
I will take that bet bob. serial number.
Quote: rainmanI will take that bet bob. serial number.
Whatever.
I have a Smith & Wesson model 669 I bought years ago in Portland at "The Cop Shop," a vendor catering to law enforcement.
9mm, extended magazine capacity, shortened to be easily concealable.
Quote: MrV
9mm, extended magazine capacity, shortened to be easily concealable.
Is that legal?
Quote: AcesAndEightsI may get something a bit more compact, like a Glock 19 or Glock 23, or one of the XDM compact models.
I routinely carry a Glock 19. I have no compelling reason to change.
The new S&W M&P Shield has my interest piqued, however.
Quote: EvenBobIs that legal?
The real question is if limiting the types of guns Americans can own is legal.
By "shortened," I mean that S & W did it at the factory: designed to be easily concealable, yet hold 12 rounds.
A lot of firepower in a fairly small package.
Quote: FaceI hope I didn't imply that you shouldn't get the gun now. In fact, in NY, after you go through the 2 year, several hundred dollar process to get a CPL, you HAVE to buy a gun within 30days or forfeit the license.
I'm not terribly familiar with the XDM, but you will run into concealment issues with the full sized unless, like me, you live off the map. I'm not saying to not buy it, but (and this probably won't be a problem) you might need to get another to suit your needs down the road. I imagine after a while you'll want another one anyways ;)
Yeah I want to get the full size to learn and improve my aim on, and something relatively compact once I'm more experienced. You're right that I'll definitely want more than one gun eventually :).
Quote: Face
A .40's not bad, can handle just about anything in the continental US and is relatively cheap, just one cent a round more expensive than a 9mm. The .45 is closer to 5 cents more, and my 10mm is just an incredible pain in the rear to even find, let alone afford. Luckily for my checkbook, my .44mag is too big for almost everything and I'm spared the dollar-per-round fee of playing with it ;)
Yeah I think I've decided I can handle the cost increase of .40, although your quote of one cent per round more doesn't seem to jive with the prices around here, but I do need to do some shopping around. What kind of 10mm gun do you have? I was thinking about that until I realized how really uncommon it is.
Quote: WongBoanyone carrying a gun should be fully prepared to shoot to kill.
if you draw the gun at close quarters and hesitate for even a half second
it can very easily be taken away from you and used against you.
gun disarm
also, be aware of research that finds that carrying a gun increases your likelihood of being killed by 400%+
That second link is definitely interesting and a bit scarcy, but I wish they had more details on the study. I feel like it would be impossible to control for all the confounding factors and still come up with a useful result.
Quote: NicksGamingStuffI'm pretty sure the Wiz was carrying this past weekend. My first gun was a Sig p250 I got at Bargain pawn, its a nice 9mm but has a bit of a long trigger pull. My second is a Glock 21 which is a bit large for concealed carry but its a much better gun in terms of the way it feels when I fire it, and it is more accurate. I got a nice in the waistband holder that has a built in pouch for a second magazine. I have bought about four holsters and this is the best one so far. Too bad I can't carry at work, the walk downtown at 4am is a bit creepy with all the bums and thugs I have to pass when going to the place I park about a block away.
I'm surprised you went with the Glock in .45ACP...most people I know that like .45 aren't a big fan of the plastic alloy frame guns, since the recoil with that caliber is so intense. But if you can handle it, more power to you!
Quote: AcesAndEightsI'm surprised you went with the Glock in .45ACP...most people I know that like .45 aren't a big fan of the plastic alloy frame guns, since the recoil with that caliber is so intense. But if you can handle it, more power to you!
I agree. The recoil is so bad it sometimes breaks the
shooters wrist. And the ammo is super expensive. I
don't even own a .45 anymore. There's a funny shot
of a woman on some reality show shooting a .45,
and the recoil has the gun come up and hit her in the
face. Now thats entertaining TV, especially in slo/mo.
Quote: AcesAndEightsYeah I think I've decided I can handle the cost increase of .40, although your quote of one cent per round more doesn't seem to jive with the prices around here, but I do need to do some shopping around. What kind of 10mm gun do you have? I was thinking about that until I realized how really uncommon it is.
Yeah, prices vary across the country, but you should find it to be close. The 9mm to .40 gap is a lot smaller than the .40 to .45 gap. The 10mm is a Glock 20. It's really totally pointless lol. It's so close to the .40 you can change the barrel to make it a .40, and with the incredible pain to find ammo and and the retarded cost, it's a wonder anyone would buy one. But my Pops likes it, so I'm stuck with it.
volume. I know a local gun store buys all their ammo from
Walmart and marks it up in their store.
Quote: FaceYeah, prices vary across the country, but you should find it to be close. The 9mm to .40 gap is a lot smaller than the .40 to .45 gap. The 10mm is a Glock 20. It's really totally pointless lol. It's so close to the .40 you can change the barrel to make it a .40, and with the incredible pain to find ammo and and the retarded cost, it's a wonder anyone would buy one. But my Pops likes it, so I'm stuck with it.
I have a 10mm Glock 29. It's fun and unique, but its very overpowered for the size and insanely expensive to shoot. It's also a real pain in the ass to find/buy the ammo. Every time, its the same thing. "Hi, I'm looking for 10mm rounds..." "You mean 9mm. Let me show..." "no, 10mm. We're literally surrounded by 9mm rounds. I wouldn't need help..."
Quote: EvenBobWalmart is the cheapest, usually, because they buy in such
volume. I know a local gun store buys all their ammo from
Walmart and marks it up in their store.
Yeah, that's where I get mine if I'm just looking for a box of 50 or so. I usually get my .44mag from there since I shoot it so sparingly. For something I bang off all the time, like my Glock or M-4, it's better to get a gun mag and order a crate. I save ~40% buying in bulk.
Quote: rdw4potusI have a 10mm Glock 29. It's fun and unique, but its very overpowered for the size and insanely expensive to shoot. It's also a real pain in the ass to find/buy the ammo. Every time, its the same thing. "Hi, I'm looking for 10mm rounds..." "You mean 9mm. Let me show..." "no, 10mm. We're literally surrounded by 9mm rounds. I wouldn't need help..."
Quoted for truth ;)
Quote: WongBoanyone carrying a gun should be fully prepared to shoot to kill.
if you draw the gun at close quarters and hesitate for even a half second
it can very easily be taken away from you and used against you.
Goodness me. Handgun Control, Inc. called. Your generous donation is late.
Quote: WongBoalso, be aware of research that finds that carrying a gun increases your likelihood of being killed by 400%+
That article did not provide a link to the study, but since it analyzed "shooting victims in Philadelphia" I would wager it was mostly gang bangers, not normal citizens who go through the motions, jump through the hoops, pass the background checks, get fingerprinted, get a CCW, and quietly carry.
This study could probably be more accurately titled "Carrying a Gun While Gang Banging Increases Your Likelihood of Getting Killed 400%."
The article from wongbo about 400% more likely to be killed is full of crap.
Happy shooting.
Quote: kmumfThe article from wongbo about 400% more likely to be killed is full of crap.
.
Gun haters are always coming up with wild crap.
Guns are more popular than ever.
i just think there are alot of people who are not prepared to actually gun someone down.
or who think pulling a gun is gonna be like it is on tv.
if someone is threatening you to the point that you pull on them, you better bring it out blazing.
i have seen a guy pull and have the gun taken from him..
he was then pistol whipped and left with his gun sans ammo.
(note: NO, i wasn't either guy...:)
i just wanted to spur some thoughts on the topic.
yes, that study was just something i dragged off the net and
may or may not be relevant to everyone.obviously.
but consider the possibility and be prepared
i don't carry often, i live in manhattan so it's complicated.
a friend gave me a glock similar to this...
glock 17, 3rd generation
Quote: WongBoalso, be aware of research that finds that carrying a gun increases your likelihood of being killed by 400%+
The methodology of that study has been completely thrown out. Branas doesn't even touch on the question of licensing. Here is just one analysis that demolishes the author's underpinnings: examiner article
Quote: SanchoPanzaQuote: WongBoalso, be aware of research that finds that carrying a gun increases your likelihood of being killed by 400%+
The methodology of that study has been completely thrown out. Branas doesn't even touch on the question of licensing. Here is just one analysis that demolishes the author's underpinnings: examiner article
The conclusion is skewed towards an anti-gun bias but probably the data is correct. I have no problem believing that people that are killed in a violent confrontation carry guns at a 4 time higher rate than the general poplulation. The gang murders would all have the victims carrying guns as well as lot of people that carry are those that are more likely to be in a place they are in danger.
Quote: SanchoPanzaQuote: WongBoalso, be aware of research that finds that carrying a gun increases your likelihood of being killed by 400%+
The methodology of that study has been completely thrown out. Branas doesn't even touch on the question of licensing. Here is just one analysis that demolishes the author's underpinnings: examiner article
Thanks for digging up that link. This quote from original article describing the study:
Quote:The team also accounted for other potentially confounding differences
seems to be in direct contradiction to this quote from the actual study:
Quote:We also did not account for the potential of reverse causation between gun possession and gun assault.
To be fair they didn't claim to account for all confounding differences, but that seems like the biggest one.
Quote: QuadDeucesI cannot personally see why anyone would buy an XD over a Glock.
In my limited amount of research so far, I've found roughly equal endorsement for Glocks and XDMs among gun owners. They both get high marks for reliability and ease of maintenance, which are both important for me. A few of my friends have pointed out that there's a big difference in the XDM models versus the XD models; the XDMs are much higher quality (hence the "M" for match-grade).
I've put about 50-60 rounds (I know, not much) each through the Glock 22 and the XDM-40 trying to decide and found them nearly identical to my tastes. The grip angle is slightly different which is pretty much a personal decision, but I found both of them to be adequate. There are 2 factors that have me leaning toward the XDM at this point. First, the magazine release is much easier for me to reach with my right thumb on the XDM than on the Glock. With the Glock I have to contort my hand into an awkward position or use my left hand to get at it, with the XDM it's natural. I have heard that the Gen 4 Glocks have a bigger mag release, so I may need to get my hands on one of those to test it. The other factor is simply the higher mag capacity in the stock XDM magazines. Not a big deal but it's there.
Now if I start shopping and find that the XDM is going to be more expensive, I'll probably settle for the Glock. I've resolved not to buy until I find a new job anyway, so I've got more time to think and probably at least one more trip to the range to rent and test stuff.
Quote: AcesAndEightsOh yeah and the XDMs come with adjustable backstraps and the Glocks do not.
And, now I just discovered that the Gen 4 Glocks also come with the adjustable backstraps. Guess I will have some shopping around to do, as previously I wasn't going to make a big deal of which generation I was getting.
Quote: AcesAndEightsIn my limited amount of research so far, I've found roughly equal endorsement for Glocks and XDMs among gun owners. They both get high marks for reliability and ease of maintenance, which are both important for me.
That's one of the main reasons I'm so bullish on Glocks. If I can get the part, I can fix it myself. No filing, fitting, or futzing - just replace the broken part.
Quote:A few of my friends have pointed out that there's a big difference in the XDM models versus the XD models; the XDMs are much higher quality (hence the "M" for match-grade).
When evaluating defensive firearms, I usually run the other way when anything says "Match" or "Competition."
Quote:There are 2 factors that have me leaning toward the XDM at this point. First, the magazine release is much easier for me to reach with my right thumb on the XDM than on the Glock. With the Glock I have to contort my hand into an awkward position or use my left hand to get at it, with the XDM it's natural.
For a defensive, carry gun, you WANT to have to adjust your grip to get to the magazine release to avoid accidental activation.
Quote:I have heard that the Gen 4 Glocks have a bigger mag release, so I may need to get my hands on one of those to test it. The other factor is simply the higher mag capacity in the stock XDM magazines. Not a big deal but it's there.
If you must, you can always put a Glock 21 magazine release in a Glock 19/23/17/22 and it protrudes a little more. See above for the reason not to. It might be something you can do temporarily until you don't need it anymore.
Increased firepower is never a bad thing.
Quote:Now if I start shopping and find that the XDM is going to be more expensive, I'll probably settle for the Glock. I've resolved not to buy until I find a new job anyway, so I've got more time to think and probably at least one more trip to the range to rent and test stuff.
"Settle for the Glock." You "settle for" your wife, not your guns. :)
Quote: WongBo
i just think there are alot of people who are not prepared to actually gun someone down.
or who think pulling a gun is gonna be like it is on tv.
The vast VAST majority of cops in this
country never have to 'gun someone
down', what makes you think a civilian
would? You sound like somebody who
knows very little about this subject.
I know at least a dozen people who carry
& none of them have a silly attitude about
'pulling a gun'. You act like we all have
fast draw contests and think we're
we're John Wayne. Nothing could be
farther from the truth.
he hesitated and the other guy used some krav maga move on him and
beat him within an inch of his life with his own gun.
i am not saying you shouldn't carry.
i am saying you should be prepared for the day you actually need to use the gun.
if you don't think i am right then that's your perogative.
but if you carry and pull a gun but are afraid to shoot someone, what is the point?
Quote: WongBoi admitted that i have only seen a gun pulled in a non-police confrontation once.
he hesitated and the other guy used some krav maga move on him and
beat him within an inch of his life with his own gun.
Which movie was this in?
sorry i don't live in some boring hellhole.
the hellhole i live in is pretty exciting.
i don't care if you don't believe it.
do a google search for similar incidents.
it happens.
people who oppose guns always have
stories they tell. Like how their neighbor
got shot with his own gun, or the neighbors
kid found dads gun and killed his sister
with it. Its always something..
Quote: FaceI love talking guns. You might even pull ol' vert out of the woodwork and get him posting again ;)
Quote: vert1276wow I don't look at this forum for about a week and a gun thread pops up, I thought I ws the only one who posted gun stuff around here ;)
Looks like Face was right! Thanks for your contributions to the thread.
