airlines bumping passengers

Quote: boymimbo

JetBlue does not sell more seats on a plane than it owns. The big carriers need all the help they can get from a revenue standpoint.

It's true that the old legacy carriers (Delta, United, American) have enormous legacy costs that JetBlue doesn't have. So what's Southwest's excuse?

I'm curious how much JetBlue's no bump policy hurts them financially. On the one hand, they lose money because their planes aren't always 100% full. On the other hand, Delta spent a fortune compensating their 24,458 bumped passengers in the first quarter of 2011, and that's one cost that JetBlue avoids by actually honoring their own tickets. If I was devising an advertising campaign for JetBlue, I would definitely publicize their low bump statistics.

Quote: Wizard

It would be nice if there were one airline that didn't overbook, gave an extra three inches of leg room, and at least offered free snacks. For that, I would be happy to pay 50% more, and I think the nicities would cost significantly less than that. Why is it that in Vegas there is everything from the Western to the Wynn, but all the airlines are roughly the Circus Circus when it comes to quality and amenities. Why is there no Bellagio airline, or at least the Flamingo?

By the way, I would like to put in a good word for Jet Blue. I have never had a bad experience with them, although I think they could be better.

I believe that Jet Blue meets your three requirements. Unfortunately they don't fly that many place or that often. Also I seem to recall that they were the airline with the highly publicized incidents that caused the Passenger Bill of Rights to pass.

The airlines have learned through experience that the majority of customers will choose a flight by price and price only. It is not in their interest to offer better service. As a customer, if I avoided every airline where I have had a bad experience I would never be able to fly again.

Quote: Wizard

In my opinion if there are more than x planes waiting to take off then further boardings should be delayed until the backlog clears up.

At airports like EWR, that could easily be 9 or 10 o'clock in the evening most days.

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Why is there no Bellagio airline, or at least the Flamingo?

Several companies have ventured to try to offer luxury service. Clearly the market has not been there.

Quote: jml24

I believe that Jet Blue meets your three requirements. Unfortunately they don't fly that many place or that often. Also I seem to recall that they were the airline with the highly publicized incidents that caused the Passenger Bill of Rights to pass.

I think I'm temporarily happy with them because I took them to New York, where I paid an extra $50 for the emergency exit aisle. The extra six inches are worth the money to me. Plus, I like the monitors for each seat, although a monkey could do a better job picking movies. They also offer service to Long Beach, CA, an airport few airlines service. That airport is quite close to my parents house. Otherwise, I don't see much difference.

Quote: jml24

The airlines have learned through experience that the majority of customers will choose a flight by price and price only. It is not in their interest to offer better service. As a customer, if I avoided every airline where I have had a bad experience I would never be able to fly again.

Good point. It seems we agree that all airlines are more or less equally bad. When I have to fly I just put in where I'm going and take the cheapest and most convenient flight. I have almost no loyalty to anybody -- because nobody has earned it.

It would take a big advertising budget, but I think that if that set out to explain the extra benefits of the luxury fleet, passengers would eventually catch on. Like Lexus. When they first came out nobody knew was a Luxus was, they had to convince the public they were worth the extra money over a Toyota.

Some people like being bumped. Count me as one of them. Nothing would make me happier than to get involuntary/voluntarily bumped from a flight. That's just the way I am -- my time as a student is worth less than if I was a salaried employee with responsibilities and such. I can't think of anything that is so important to get to that it can't wait a few hours. (Maybe a medical emergency involving a family member). Many other people feel the same way, so I'm not sure how well a no-bumping advertising campaign would go over.

Quote: Wizard

In the case of your story the passengers had to sit on the plane for six hours before it took off.

That's precisely my point. absent the "passenger bill of rights" regulation, they'd have left a lot sooner.

Quote:

In my opinion it was selfish of the airline to keep them in that plane to make the flight at all costs.

Think about it. It does no good to the airline to waste loads of fuel idling the engines while waiting to take off. and if they cancel the flight, they have to provide passengers with alternative transportation and, if necessary, lodging and food.

Not to mention the extra passengers going to other flights might cause those flights to be overbooked... It's a vicios circle, too, or it can be.

Quote:

It would be nice if there were one airline that didn't overbook, gave an extra three inches of leg room, and at least offered free snacks.

There is. It's called Interjet and flies out of Mexico City. the seats are all coah, upholstered in leather and have more leg room compared to other airlines. On short flights you get complimentary coffe, juice or soda, and a bag of chips, cookies or a ceral abr or donut (depending on the time of day). Unfortunately they run "entertainment" for much of the flight and pipe the sound over the loud-speakers. So sleeping is difficult (I manage because I always get my way <w>). On the up side, half their planes have a camera stuck to the cockpit windshield and they show live feed of the takeoff and landing. Oh, and they don't fly to the US as yet.

But I don't know if they overbook flights or not.

Voalris is pretty much the same, and it flies to Vegas and some palces in California. Chicago, too, I think.

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For that, I would be happy to pay 50% more, and I think the nicities would cost significantly less than that.

You're out of luck. they are somewhat cheaper than most other airlines. Sorry.

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Why is there no Bellagio airline, or at least the Flamingo?

Oh, there is. it's called somehting like fractional jet ownership. You buy a share in a company that operates private jets, which gives you the right to X flight hours per year for a carload of money. There was an article about it in the Air and Space mag some weeks ago. I'll look it up when I'm home.

They won't bump you, it's your private flight. But they are subject to weather delays.

Quote: Wizard

Why is it that in Vegas there is everything from the Western to the Wynn, but all the airlines are roughly the Circus Circus when it comes to quality and amenities. Why is there no Bellagio airline, or at least the Flamingo?

True, but the international carriers are much classier. I've never flown on Singapore Airlines, (which has the reputation for being the world's best airline), but I have flown Lufthansa and I was impressed by the quantity of food, the quality of food, and free alcohol in economy class. Sadly, the seat configuration on Lufthansa isn't any roomier than on Southwest.

There is a Bellagio - NetJets LOL
http://www.netjets.com/NetJets_Programs/NetJets_Programs.asp?campaign=GooglePaid
Warren Buffet is a major shareholder

Here's the article:

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/Ride-Sharing-With-the-Rich.html

Sorry for not formatting the link.

The airline industry has been cutting back in order to make money to pay its pension obligations. It stopped handing out free snacks a couple of years ago, but the beverages (non-alcoholic) are not going away... yet. It's introduced luggage prices, increased its price on alcoholic drinks, offers buy-on-board snacks and meals only, charges for headsets, pillows, and blankets, and generally nickel and dime you beyond the base fare. That's the end product of deregulation from the 80s. There are very few airlines who operate differently within the continental US because tourists will book the cheapest fare, period. They've figured out that they can buy a sandwich in the airport (the one they want) and carry it on board.

Yes, you pay more based on the time of day, the time of year, and the number of connections, but generally, price is the number one factor, for tourists. I don't like it either. I liked the time when they offered meals on the plane for free, didn't charge for baggage, and gave away snacks. But all of these had a price. And with airlines needing to cut corners wherever possible, they've cut back on virtually everything. If a Delta, United, or American airways decided to bring these back, the passengers wouldn't come to the airline: price and convenience are the number one factor. You want the least price for the least amount of time, period. You aren't going to switch airlines to one that offers free food and have to wait an extra hour to connect through Dallas instead of taking a different airline through Chicago. You aren't going to trust that a connection in Philadelphia through US airways is going to get you anywhere fast, soon. I don't care if US airways offers free hookers on its flights, I'm avoiding Philadelphia like the plague!!! JetBlue may offer premium pricing for economy seats, but would you jump on thair airline to go to Seattle via San Francisco (from Vegas), or would you just hop on a direct flight on SouthWest or Alaska? You'd take the direct flight.

For business travellers, the number one factor is convenience and comfort. Price is not as much of a factor. I must travel on Sunday night and come home on Thursday or Friday. Airlines know this. Prices are always much higher for a Sunday night flight than a Sunday morning flight. Tuesdays and Wednesdays are always the cheapest day to travel.

If I were a tourist, I'd take SouthWest everywhere. I love the airline. It's got crazy hub cities mind you (Vegas, Baltimore, Midway) but I like the boarding priority, the friendly crews, and the snacks. No entertainment, however, absolutely none. I'd also take JetBlue becuase of the seatback movies. But most people bring on laptops, I-Pads, etc which they can use anytime above 10K feet. Airlines are now offering wireless internet for a fee, such as American's Go-Go. Southwest has some planes with wireless.

Some domestic airlines have moved to premium seating (Economy Seating with extra legroom towards the front of the plane), the king of those being United Economy Plus. Other domestic airlines just sell seats at premium toward the front of the plane just so you can get off the plane quicker... they're the same seats!

Back to the bumping issue. Planes will continue to be oversold. The airline industry needs to move passengers around on different flights through the day because the days of simply going from point A to point B usually involve an intermediary point where a number of things can go wrongly. Business travellers pay (a great deal) more for refundable tickets because a sales meeting can get moved or cancelled at any time. Personally, with the company I work for, I've changed my flights about 12 - 15 times in the last year (and paid a fee everytime), sometimes an hour before the flights leave. Some airlines have a policy of holding a plane for their most elite passengers. Loyalty for business travellers go a very very long way. Losing a company's business for another group of airlines can have a devastating effect to a bottom line, similar to losing a whale at a casino. That's why airlines will not bump them or bump a passenger who paid more than other passengers, because they make the gamble that the person who paid more for their ticket did so because they are travelling for a more important purpose and will take its more expensive business elsewhere.

I'm not sure I agree that everyone is going to go strictly by cheapest airfare. There were still a fair number of people who would not consider Southwest for the longest time, because of the cattle call seating procedure. That changed once Southwest started the current boarding pass signup process.And I notice more people are paying the extra $10 to get higher priority seats. So people have already demonstrated that some conveniences are worth not going with the cheapest fare.

This conversation also made me realize why I enjoy the junkets to MS so much. I still have to deal with the regular airport, and TSA, and all that BS, but there is no other worries. My seat is guaranteed, and the plane is almost always ready to go. There is no bumping. I take a sandwich on, and on the flight down, the booze is free. It is a completely stress free way to travel. Occasionally the junkets will use a commercial flight (like when I go to Vegas). Even though it is still all paid for, it doesn't have the same 'smooth' feel to it. There are still worries, flights can be overbooked, bumping does occur, etc. I had never realized that I was paying attention to any of that until now.

Quote: boymimbo

... I liked the time when they offered meals on the plane for free, didn't charge for baggage, and gave away snacks. ...

I'd still be interested in seeing an analysis of the overall cost impact if an airline were to charge for carry-on baggage (beyond a true bare minimum) instead of charging for standard checked baggage. Charging for checked baggage has led to a large number of people trying to carry on stuff that obviously should have been checked, then they bog down the whole boarding and de-boarding procedures when there isn't adequate space for their foot locker or three tote bags in the overhead bin.

I really suspect that an airline could save a bunch of money through better utilization of their equipment (with faster loading and unloading) if they encouraged people to check their bags -- surely the paid baggage handlers can stow stuff in the baggage compartment faster than the amateurs can load it into overhead bins. And those business travelers or other folks who really need to have stuff on board the plane or who can't afford to wait the extra ten minutes at baggage claim should be willing to pay the carry-on charge.

Quote: boymimbo

....
Back to the bumping issue. Planes will continue to be oversold. The airline industry needs to move passengers around on different flights through the day because the days of simply going from point A to point B usually involve an intermediary point where a number of things can go wrongly. Business travellers pay (a great deal) more for refundable tickets because a sales meeting can get moved or cancelled at any time. Personally, with the company I work for, I've changed my flights about 12 - 15 times in the last year (and paid a fee everytime), sometimes an hour before the flights leave. Some airlines have a policy of holding a plane for their most elite passengers. Loyalty for business travellers go a very very long way. Losing a company's business for another group of airlines can have a devastating effect to a bottom line, similar to losing a whale at a casino. That's why airlines will not bump them or bump a passenger who paid more than other passengers, because they make the gamble that the person who paid more for their ticket did so because they are travelling for a more important purpose and will take its more expensive business elsewhere.

So the fact that I bought and paid for a ticket (and have a contract with the carrier to get me to destination x at time y) can be ignored by the carrier because some fat cat comes along and waves more cash? That is not how America works!! Oh sure, money always talks, but once a contract is made, it should be required to be honored. I'm sure there is wording in the fine print that makes this all perfectly legal, but I do not agree that it is morally responsible. It is that way because the carriers choose to have it their way. I absolutely agree that planes need to fly full, OR, they need to price the tix such that they can afford to fly with empty seats. That process should not be completed with involuntary bumping, the way it is done today.

How would you like to have an offer accepted on a house, sign the contract, go to the bank and get the loan, and then go to the signing, only to have the seller's lawyer show up and say, "Sorry, the seller got an offer $10,000 higher, so they have sold to the other party. But not to worry. We have other houses we will be glad to put you in."

In short, yes.

And don't kid yourself, that's exactly how America works. And the DOT allows it (with mandatory compensation), meaning that it's perfectly legal.

Quote: United Airlines Contract of Carriage summary

NOTICE - OVERBOOKING OF FLIGHTS
Airline flights may be overbooked, and there is a slight chance that a seat will not be available on a flight for which a person has a confirmed reservation. If the flight is overbooked, no one will be denied a seat until airline personnel first ask for volunteers willing to give up their reservation in exchange for compensation of the airline's choosing. If there are not enough volunteers, the airline will deny boarding to other persons in accordance with its particular boarding priority. With few exceptions, including failure to comply with the carrier's check-in deadlines which are available upon request from the air carrier, persons denied boarding involuntarily are entitled to compensation. The complete rules for the payment of compensation and each airline's boarding priorities are available at all airport ticket counters and boarding locations. Some airlines do not apply these consumer protections to travel from some foreign countries, although other consumer protections may be available. Check with your airline or your travel agent.

Quote: American Airlines Contract of Carriage

Please read your contract carefully.

OVERSALES
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events, American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the AAdvantage® program.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of ‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:

1.You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
2.You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
3.You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
4.On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
5.You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
6.The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.

Is it just me, or does anyone else annoyed that the airlines refer to overbooking as overselling. Like the knew the public was furious about it, so they tried to fool us by changing the word. "Oversold" puts an incorrect soft edge to the problem, like they sold 505 seats to a show that seats 500. No, when you book you make a specific reservation to be on that plane, and probably in a particular seat. If I buy seat 16C that seat should be mine.

Those contracts above show how callous the airlines are about it. No mention of how hard they will try to motivate other passengers to voluntarily bump or what ‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ is. Those contracts basically say we can do whatever we want. What choice to passengers have other than to accept them?

Quote: Wizard

... If I buy seat 16C that seat should be mine.

Should be, Mike, but things don't always work out. Particularly when there are equipment changes. There might not even be a seat 16C on the aircraft that makes the flight, even if there was one on the aircraft that they had in mind when you bought your ticket. Would you demand that they find another aircraft with a seat 16C? I doubt it.

I have booked tickets and specifically chosen my seats to get the right exit row -- the one with the extra leg room but without the non-reclining seat. Then I get on the plane and find that row isn't even an exit row on the plane that's flying that day. Not the same as being bumped, but do I have a legitimate grievance that I booked an exit row and didn't get one?

Suppose your favorite airline were really good at predicting no-shows. Suppose that they could "oversell" some or all of their flights without ever having to bump a passenger. Would you prefer that they not do that and instead fly with empty seats for all of their no-shows? That, of course, would mean that they would likely have to raise ticket prices.

If it is OK with you for them to overbook so long as there is no bumping, it seems your complaint is with their skill at predicting no-shows. And they pay a penalty each time that they miss.

Quote: Wizard

What choice to passengers have other than to accept them?

Greyhound. But I'm not sure that their ticket contract would meet all of your wishes.

Quote: Doc

Should be, Mike, but things don't always work out. Particularly when there are equipment changes.

It can get worse than that.

On a day trip to Guadalajara I flew Aeromexico. the return flight was supposed to be in an Embreaer passenger jet. It turned out to be in a B-737. My window seat got transferred to the aisle.

When I asked the agent at the gate why they changed planes, she said they dind't. Ratehr the online system and the electronic ticket kiosk at the airport, hadn't been updated to reflect the current stock. Can you believe that?

Well, that's one advantage of low-cost airlines: they only fly one kind of plane.

Or so it seems. I know of two in detail. Interjet flies only A-320s, all are exactly the same inside and out. Voalris, though, flies mostly A-320s, but it operates a few of the smaller variant, formally known as A-319 or A-318. they're the same basic plane, only a bit shorter and with fewer rows of seats. If they changed an A-320 for an A-319, seat distribution would remain the same, only the passengers on the last rows would find themselves bumped off the flight.

I got bumped on my first ever transatlantic flight (from Copenhagen to New York). I wonder what are the odds for that!?

Anyway, I was 16 years old and travelling from Europe to New York with my dad. We entered the plane but a family was already sitting in our designated seats. It was a bit awkward. We asked the family to give us our seats and they looked at us like we are crazy.
We were escorted out of the plane. I don't know anything about bumping so does it work like this? I mean you actually enter the plane but someone is sitting in your designated seat already?

Anyway we were given $400 CASH per person and given a hotel to stay the night in. At the the time I was saving money to buy a top-notch computer so I really didn't mind the $400 extra cash and actually was happy that this happened.

Quote: RaleighCraps

So the fact that I bought and paid for a ticket (and have a contract with the carrier to get me to destination x at time y) can be ignored by the carrier because some fat cat comes along and waves more cash?

The contract is to get you to the destination period. The time of you getting there is not part of the contract.

Quote: RaleighCraps

That is not how America works!!
...
It is that way because the carriers choose to have it their way.

But that is exactly how America works. Private businesses have the right to do whatever they choose to do.

Quote:

I absolutely agree that planes need to fly full, OR, they need to price the tix such that they can afford to fly with empty seats.

You have that option. You can charter a private plane, or just buy a Business Class seat.
For those people who can afford tickets "priced such that they can afford to fly with empty seats", bumping is not, and never has been a problem.
It is the rest of us, who has to suffer.

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That process should not be completed with involuntary bumping, the way it is done today.

It is easy to say that something should not be done the way it is being done. Much harder to suggest a viable alternative.

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How would you like to have an offer accepted on a house, sign the contract, go to the bank and get the loan, and then go to the signing, only to have the seller's lawyer show up and say, "Sorry, the seller got an offer $10,000 higher, so they have sold to the other party. But not to worry. We have other houses we will be glad to put you in."

It does happen every now and then actually, especially, when the seller is not selling through an agent. There is usually some kind of a compensation the seller will pay to the buyer if he backs out of an accepted offer, not unlike the cash, and vouchers, and upgrades, and other goodies airlines offer to people that get bumped from their flights.

Quote: pacomartin

Well here is a newspaper article about the trip dated 14th February 2009:
The Prince of hypocrites: Charles embarks on 16,000 mile 'green' crusade... aboard a private jet

On their expense account on the royals website they list the jet charter as £645,127 (7-18 March 2009) which is nearly a million dollars.

Yes, I did not question the cost. Just said, I did not think it had to come from the taxpayers (unlike similar expenses of other heads of states as you mentioned), based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge of how UK royalty financing works.

Quote: Jufo81

We were escorted out of the plane. I don't know anything about bumping so does it work like this? I mean you actually enter the plane but someone is sitting in your designated seat already?

I don't think so. I witnessed one bumping incident on a flight from Houston to Mex City involving the late Texas International Airlines (later to merge with Continental). This was in 78 or 79. At the gate an agent announced the fligth was overbooked, and would three or four people please volunteer to take a flight the next day (as per my family's tradition, we left in the latest possible flight). They mentioned inducements, including a free hotel, meals and some money.

As I recall, one man who'd been talking with my parents took the bump. I dont' recal whether anyone else did or what happened afterwards. The flight left on time. Funny, though, I do recall it was a DC-9 :)

Quote:

Anyway we were given $400 CASH per person and given a hotel to stay the night in. At the the time I was saving money to buy a top-notch computer so I really didn't mind the $400 extra cash and actually was happy that this happened.

If this happened while on vacation, I'd love to be bumped, given a free extra night and some money. I'd even insit on the latest possible flight the next day (traditions matter) Unfortunately the Vegas to Mex route is not what you'd call crowded.

Quote: AZDuffman

If I had a 100 of a product and could regularly sell 103 of them, I would surely do it.

The honest businessman would inform his last 3 customers before accepting payment that the product is out of stock and to expect a delay. Perhaps the customer cares about the delay, perhaps the customer doesn't care, but the point is to give the customer the power to make an informed decision. Don't make promises you can't keep. (Unless you run an airline.)

The airlines are operating within the parameters of the Department of Transport. Because the government allows airlines to overbook, that's exactly what happens. The airline gambles that an overbook situation will not be necessary. There have been a few situations where i've been travelling standby on an earlier flight, I get told that the plane is absolutely full, and voila, at the end, there's a no-show and I'm the last passenger on that plane. The airline sells the seat and has more seats to fill on a future flight.

Airlines like this system especially in hub cities - to fill up planes earlier in the day and leave the last flight of the day with as many empty seats as possible to deal with overbooks, missed connections due to weather, cancellations, and so on.

The problem is that with high load factors in the summer and holiday seasons, the overbook situation becomes ridiculous, but they are operating within DOT's laws.

On one flight, I was on a 320 to Philadelphia (from Buffalo) and they asked for two people to volunteer to leave a 3/4 full plane (already loaded) due to weight issues. Because the temperature outside was so hot, the plane required longer runway for takeoff and landing. That sucked. The two people who left were very reluctant to do so.

With the doubling of overbook charges that took place earlier this month, I wonder how the overbooking situation is now and if they've increased the compensation offerred for voluntary overbooks.

Posts about the British Monarchy's flying habits have been moved to Is the British Monarchy wasting taxpayer money?.

Quote: weaselman

It is easy to say that something should not be done the way it is being done. Much harder to suggest a viable alternative.

But I am suggesting a viable alternative. I am saying there needs to be a system in place that puts more information in the hands of the ticket purchaser. Any way the airlines want to do it is fine by me. Here are my quick thoughts. I'm sure the airline pros could come up with workable solutions, if they were motivated to do so, which they currently are not!

Number 1.) Eliminate the problem of no-shows by stating that no-shows will be charged for their ticket, if the seat goes unfilled.
This takes care of some small part of the overbooking reasons, yet allows the airline to make their profit. Hell, they even make more money, since they get the revenue with less weight on the flight.

Number 2.) When the capacity of the plane has been reached, further purchasers are notified they are buying the ticket with the possibility that they may not actually have a seat on that flight.
The purchaser can now make a decision to accept this risk, or not. But ticket number 150 on a 180 seat plane should expect to get their seat.

Number 3.) The airlines can reserve x number of seats for their high profile customers. It will be assumed these seats will be empty when they price the other tickets. If the high profile seats are taken the day of the flight, it is pure profit for the airline. If the seats are empty, they can be used to take care of other passengers or stand-bys or ?????? Point is, they have excess capacity built in, but they have priced that in to the other 170 tickets, or whatever number.

Weather problems that cause an interruption are always going to cause an issue. When that happens, or when equipment needs to be swapped out resulting in smaller capacity jets, problems are inevitable. When flights resume there are going to be more people than seats. I can see where involuntary bumping may end up happening at this time.

Quote: RaleighCraps

But I am suggesting a viable alternative. I am saying there needs to be a system in place that puts more information in the hands of the ticket purchaser. Any way the airlines want to do it is fine by me. Here are my quick thoughts. I'm sure the airline pros could come up with workable solutions, if they were motivated to do so, which they currently are not!

So, the alternative you are "suggesting" is "have airlines thionk of something else"? :)

Quote:

Number 1.) Eliminate the problem of no-shows by stating that no-shows will be charged for their ticket, if the seat goes unfilled.

That's already the case. Even if it does not stay unfilled, if you buy a (nonrefundable) ticket, and do not show up, you will lose the cost of the ticket.
(And if your ticket is refundable, then you won't be bumped).

Quote:

Number 2.) When the capacity of the plane has been reached, further purchasers are notified they are buying the ticket with the possibility that they may not actually have a seat on that flight.

Aside from the fact that this is extremely difficult technically, it will inevitably reduce the ticket sales, and hurt the airline's bottom line (which is not very good as it is).
When I suggested that you come up with an alternative, I did not mean suggest a way to drive the airline out of business. I meant, suggest an alternative, that would allow them to continue to operate (at least) as efficiently as they do now.

Quote:

Number 3.) The airlines can reserve x number of seats for their high profile customers. It will be assumed these seats will be empty when they price the other tickets.
If the high profile seats are taken the day of the flight, it is pure profit for the airline. If the seats are empty, they can be used to take care of other passengers or stand-bys or ??????

"?????" is the key. What to do when there is not enough stand-bys to fill the seats?
Like I said before, lots of tickets are already sold below cost for the simple reason that it is better than nothing. There is no way they can afford flying half-empty planes without raising all fares several times.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Number 2.) When the capacity of the plane has been reached, further purchasers are notified they are buying the ticket with the possibility that they may not actually have a seat on that flight. The purchaser can now make a decision to accept this risk, or not. But ticket number 150 on a 180 seat plane should expect to get their seat.

If you don't get an assigned seat I think you can assume the airline is gambling that you will get the seat of a no-show. When America West last involuntarily bumped me my boarding didn't have a seat number, and the other passengers did. In my the trip to Hawaii I wrote about everyone in my family had an assigned seat except my brother in law, and he got bumped. Southwest, of course, is an exception, so nobody correct me no that.

A problem is that you often don't know if you'll get an assigned seat until late in the purchase process, when buying online. It would be nice if Travelocity searches indicated whether you would get a seat assignment.

Quote: Wizard

A problem is that you often don't know if you'll get an assigned seat until late in the purchase process, when buying online. It would be nice if Travelocity searches indicated whether you would get a seat assignment.

I second that.

I always buy plane tickets online and make damn sure to pick a window seat every time. Once on Interjet for some reason the system would not let me pick a seat or print a boarding pass. I had to stand in line at the airport to get a baording pass. Worse yet, the ticket agent dind't even ask what seats I wanted. That's the first and only time that has ever happened to me. I'm always asked where I want to sit. I had to get him to change the seats. He had me sitting between two people, can you believe that?

That was my only bad experience with them so far, though.

Quote: Wizard

I think I'm temporarily happy with them because I took them to New York, where I paid an extra $50 for the emergency exit aisle. The extra six inches are worth the money to me. Plus, I like the monitors for each seat, although a monkey could do a better job picking movies. They also offer service to Long Beach, CA, an airport few airlines service. That airport is quite close to my parents house. Otherwise, I don't see much difference.

I started turning people on to jetBlue in 1999. One boss I had simply loved them and flew them always. The other boss was upset that they hit a big air pocket and claime he almost bumped his head on the roof. I still remember him complaining to me about it, as if it was the airline's fault. I mentioned the monitors, leather seats, actual snacks, etc. But he just could not get over hitting the air pocket. Thus I had to listen to a 10 minute rant about it, at 7:50 AM on 9-11-2001.

jetBlue is the closest thing to a "glory-days of air travel" flight you can get. One red-eye I was on they gave you a little "red-eye kit." Sleep mask, breath mints, earplugs, lip-balm, and I think a few other trinkets. FREE. I would have paid $10.

Compare this to a segment I flew the short-lived "Ted" airlines. They barely stopped hawking all their corporate-trinkets. My reaction to that nonsense is that if you need the revenue that bad I will not fly you again. The only good part of that flight was you could listen to tower-chatter.

Quote: weaselman

Aside from the fact that this is extremely difficult technically, it will inevitably reduce the ticket sales, and hurt the airline's bottom line (which is not very good as it is).
When I suggested that you come up with an alternative, I did not mean suggest a way to drive the airline out of business. I meant, suggest an alternative, that would allow them to continue to operate (at least) as efficiently as they do now.

Okay, I can't argue all of your responses at once, but you seem to be saying that the airlines are doing the best they can, and the current way of operating is the most efficient, even though passengers, WITH TICKETS, sometimes don't get to take the flight they have paid for, and are expecting to take. If that is truly your position, then I need to bow out of this discussion, as I am in a can't possibly win position. While I can't possibly conceive how someone could hold such a position, I do respect your right to believe what you want.

It looks like the first part of my comment did not make it into my post. I meant to say the airlines should price the tickets so that a flight would make money, at some level, say 90%. Any tickets after 90% would be pure profit. Any tickets sold after the flight is full would notify the purchaser that they are subject to no seat being available. You state this would reduce sales and hurt the bottom line. How is that possible? If they oversell the flight, they only get to collect revenue from people that actually make the flight anyway. So who cares if they sold an extra 10 seats? That is revenue they don't get for that flight. Sure, they get the revenue when the person makes the next flight, but they get that revenue at the expense of someone else who would have filled the seat.

Can you agree that eliminating overselling does not hurt the airlines bottom line? Again, the assumption is that any no show for the flight is revenue that will be kept by the airline.

Quote: RaleighCraps

Okay, I can't argue all of your responses at once, but you seem to be saying that the airlines are doing the best they can, and the current way of operating is the most efficient, even though passengers, WITH TICKETS, sometimes don't get to take the flight they have paid for, and are expecting to take.

I am saying that it is the most efficient way of the currently known ones. Or of the ones I can think of (and I am not a complete outsider to the industry, and do know some stuff about airline pricing). You may be thinking that the airlines enjoy having to bump people off the plane, compensate them, pay for their hotels, find a way to get them on another plane etc ... But let me assure you, they do not. They also are not stupid. There may be some stupid people working for them, but in general, an airline pricing and availability department is a think tank of brainiacs. The fact that they still have not been able to think of a solution strongly suggests to me that it is not at all as simple as you think.

Quote:

It looks like the first part of my comment did not make it into my post. I meant to say the airlines should price the tickets so that a flight would make money, at some level, say 90%. Any tickets after 90% would be pure profit.

Huh? How is making 91% of your cost "pure profit"?
Or do you mean 90% of tickets should cover the cost? Well, like I said earlier, if you don't mind pricey tickets, buy business class or just full unrestricted economy, and you will never be bumped. That will solve your problem without making tickets more expensive for the rest of us. Most of non-business travelers buy their tickets way below the cost, leave alone 110% of cost. Are you ready to start paying at least twice as much as you pay now for every ticket? If you are not, this solution does not work. If you are, you can enjoy it right now without driving the prices up for others.

Quote:

Any tickets sold after the flight is full would notify the purchaser that they are subject to no seat being available. You state this would reduce sales and hurt the bottom line. How is that possible? If they oversell the flight, they only get to collect revenue from people that actually make the flight anyway.

No. People, who do not show up will still pay for their ticket, they will either get on another (undersold) plane, or simply lose their ticket without refund.

Quote:

Can you agree that eliminating overselling does not hurt the airlines bottom line?
Again, the assumption is that any no show for the flight is revenue that will be kept by the airline.

Look. You buy a ticket to fly NYC to Boston, at 6pm Friday night. The plane is oversold, you don't show up, somebody else takes your seat. You show up later, and somehow convince them it was not your fault, and get them to agree to put you on another flight. Rest assured, the flight you will end up on is undersold. Getting you into one of the empty seats won't cost them anything, they just made two fares instead of one.
Also note, that if they did not oversell the first plane, they guy who took your place there could very well end up on that next one, and then they would not have a seat for you (before you say you deserve it, because you were late, it is not always your fault. your connecting flight could have been delayed for example).

Quote: RaleighCraps

... Can you agree that eliminating overselling does not hurt the airlines bottom line? Again, the assumption is that any no show for the flight is revenue that will be kept by the airline.

Maybe I missed something. By that assumption, do you mean that there would be no refundable fares offered? A business traveler who doesn't know when his out-of-town business will be complete is not allowed to pay for a refundable-fare ticket and change to another flight if he has to stay a few hours or another day longer? I don't think I know business travelers who would be willing to buy a separate ticket for each potential flight home, just so they can focus on business priorities rather than having their whole venture dependent upon how accurately they guessed the end time of an important discussion. Seems like an unreasonable imposition on the business traveler, and one that will likely drive the business travel market away from that airline. I doubt many major airlines are going to go for that plan.

If (1) refundable fares are offered, (2) airlines are not allowed to overbook, and (3) some people with refundable-fare tickets change their plans too late for the airline to find another paying passenger for that flight, then the airline will lose the revenue for that seat. By overbooking (hopefully by no more than the number of no-shows/schedule changers) the airline is able to generate that revenue, allowing them to offer lower ticket prices overall than if they had to plan on flying with an empty seat due to every no-show. The problem only arises when the airline makes an error in projecting the number of no-shows. As I said in an earlier post, I don't think the argument is against overbooking so much as it is against the fact that the airlines are not always 100% accurate in predicting the unknown/unknowable.

Doc, I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am missing something. Let me ask this. Flight A is full, but two hours before flight time, a high priority business flyer is willing to pay $2,000 for a seat. Will that flyer get the seat, which then means that another passenger who booked the Internet fare at $139 last month gets bumped?

Quote: weaselman

Huh? How is making 91% of your cost "pure profit"? Or do you mean 90% of tickets should cover the cost? Well, like I said earlier, if you don't mind pricey tickets, buy business class or just full unrestricted economy, and you will never be bumped. That will solve your problem without making tickets more expensive for the rest of us.

I think those guesses are a little high. Southwest advertises and average load factor of 79.3% with income of 3.8%. I would assume that means there "break even point is 76.3% load". That translates on a per seat basis to 105 seats full in a standard 137 passenger airplane.* It also means that income for the airline corresponds on average to roughly 4 seats on the jet.

While I think that a blanket restriction on airlines from overselling may increase their costs, I think they can be more imaginative in encouraging volunteers. The inducements have become so bland that even backpackers don't want them anymore. I would favor an outright ban on overselling the last flight of the day.

I also think that airlines should be required by law to report their involuntary bumping. It should be available on their website, organized by city pairs. It's just a question of degree.

I suspect that most bumping is not done because of overselling per se, but by passengers who miss connections, arrive late, change flights at the last minute, are delayed by weather, etc.






* Southwest current fleet of 564 jets has 137 seats apiece with only 25 exceptions that have only 122 seats.

RaleighCraps:

Buying a last-minute seat at a premium price is certainly a different scenario than what I was considering. Suppose your business traveler (who seems to have cash to burn) had the opportunity to make this bid to each of the internet-ticket buyers: "One of you let me have your $139 seat for this flight, and I"ll give you $1,000 for it, while you hop the next flight." Do you think he would find a taker? I personally suspect he would. If he did, would you consider that an unfair practice? Who would be cheated? If that system is OK, and if he were really willing to pay $2,000 to get the seat, why shouldn't the airline be allowed to make an additional $1,000 for brokering the deal?

I know that isn't the way it works, and I don't know what all factors go into determining who gets involuntarily bumped: price paid for the ticket, ticketing date, check-in time, frequent-flyer tier status, etc. But if someone is willing to pay more than ten times as much for the same seat, then maybe it is a reasonable business practice for the airline to let Mr. I've-got-to-get-there-NOW Moneybags Businessman have the seat (and pay the premium) while they let Mr. Internet-bargain Tourist wait for the next flight, paying him for the inconvenience. Then it's a matter of just what compensation is appropriate and what the premium charges should be. Tipping the maitre d' for premium service (to the disadvantage of others) has been accepted practice for quite a while, I think.

Quote: Doc

"One of you let me have your $139 seat for this flight, and I"ll give you $1,000 for it, while you hop the next flight." Do you think he would find a taker? I personally suspect he would. If he did, would you consider that an unfair practice?

But you are describing voluntary practices.

Suppose an airline sells the ten seats of it's 137 passenger plane, for little more than the cost of fuel, but they have a clause in the ticket. In the event the plane is overbooked, they reserve the right to move you to the next plane (the flight code and time of the secondary flight is made available when you purchase your ticket). Now you have an agreement at the time of purchase that you may be moved to the later flight. In compensation you know you are getting the lowest possible price for the trip. Maybe you get a sandwich bag in addition if they move you.

Now it is a business arrangement.

In a similar manner the airline should be required by law to keep raising it's offer for voluntary layovers until someone agrees to take a later flight. If the compensation is too high, they will have to have other safeguards to prevent getting in this situation.

Quote: Doc

RaleighCraps:

Buying a last-minute seat at a premium price is certainly a different scenario than what I was considering. Suppose your business traveler (who seems to have cash to burn) had the opportunity to make this bid to each of the internet-ticket buyers: "One of you let me have your $139 seat for this flight, and I"ll give you $1,000 for it, while you hop the next flight." Do you think he would find a taker? I personally suspect he would. If he did, would you consider that an unfair practice? Who would be cheated? If that system is OK, and if he were really willing to pay $2,000 to get the seat, why shouldn't the airline be allowed to make an additional $1,000 for brokering the deal?

I know that isn't the way it works, and I don't know what all factors go into determining who gets involuntarily bumped: price paid for the ticket, ticketing date, check-in time, frequent-flyer tier status, etc. But if someone is willing to pay more than ten times as much for the same seat, then maybe it is a reasonable business practice for the airline to let Mr. I've-got-to-get-there-NOW Moneybags Businessman have the seat (and pay the premium) while they let Mr. Internet-bargain Tourist wait for the next flight, paying him for the inconvenience. Then it's a matter of just what compensation is appropriate and what the premium charges should be. Tipping the maitre d' for premium service (to the disadvantage of others) has been accepted practice for quite a while, I think.

Doc,
You have described a voluntary bump situation, and I have NO problem with those. I would take that $1,000 most every time. However, if I am flying to Miami to catch my cruise, and I don't have 4 hours extra built in, I wouldn't take the $1,000. But, with involuntary bumping, I may not be given a choice. And then I miss my cruise because the airline forced me off the flight.

This happened to my wife and I, although in fairness it was not a bump. Flying to San Juan for a cruise. scheduled to arrive 4 hours before set sail. Connection in Miami. Plane arrives, has mechanical problems. One hour delay. Plane still not ready. New plane, but smaller capacity. Lines are 40 deep at the counters. They are looking for volunteer bumps, but they get less than 1/2 of what they need. I can't get to the counter to make any other plans. So I use my phone to call the airline ticketing. I am in the process of trying to get another flight that will get me in to San Juan with maybe a few minutes to spare, when they announce they have found another plane of the original size, and all passengers will be able to fly after all. We got to San Juan, and made it to the ship with about 15 minutes to spare. We were the last ones to board. That cruise had cost me $1800, and I almost missed it. Flying to the first port of call to catch the ship would have been very costly.
So lesson learned is now I realize I have to fly in the day before, and spend money on a hotel room, which is pretty much BS, but otherwise I am taking a risk of missing the boat (literally and figuratively).

I realize I described a mechanical issue, but the impact would be the same if it was an involuntary bump.

paco,
Thank you for the supporting data on the flight revenue and capacities. I had no idea where to pull the data, and was too lazy to do the research.

Being the bargain hunter I am, I have been voluntarily bumped many times, for various amounts of travel voucher dollars. A few years ago I got $800 for SEA-SJU, and $400 for the return trip (Delta). Probably cost me about 6 hours of waiting time. $200/hr isn't bad.

From what I know the award for involuntary bumping is very high--much higher than voluntary, which is why airlines are so keen to get volunteers.

Quote: Doc

Suppose your business traveler (who seems to have cash to burn) had the opportunity to make this bid to each of the internet-ticket buyers: "One of you let me have your $139 seat for this flight, and I"ll give you $1,000 for it, while you hop the next flight." ...

This reminds me of my last America West involuntary bump. I had a flight from Vegas to Burbank, leaving late a night. I HAD to be in Burbank the next morning. Despite having a boarding pass in hand, with a seat number written in by hand -- I get bumped. Somebody else was in my seat, and had a boarding pass with the same seat number. The airline made a feeble offer to get anyone to relinquish a seat, but no takers. It was a small plane. So I told the woman at the gate that I would sweeten the offer by $500 cash, which I produced, and asked her to make the offer. She refused to.

A bit off point, but I wonder if I had sat down in the double-booked seat first, would I have got to keep it and the other schmuck would get the heave-ho. Would they have looked at who had the greater priority, perhaps time of booking, or passenger status, or would it be first ass in the seat gets it. To be safe, if you suspect incompetence in booking the seats, I would try to get on the plane as soon as possible.

Quote: Wizard

A bit off point, but I wonder if I had sat down in the double-booked seat first, would I have got to keep it and the other schmuck would get the heave-ho.

I was on a flight in the 80s or early 90, and saw an situation (a bit different from the Wizard's) that didn't affect me personally.

At boarding time, there were several no-shows. At least some of the stand-by customers were given seats, and they boarded with the rest of us. The doors were closed, but there was a delay in the plane departing the gate. Eventually, they re-opened the doors, and a pair of the no-show/late-arrival customers came onto the plane. This was well after the scheduled departure time of the flight, but two people who had initially been on stand-by were required to give up their seats in favor of the people who did not get to the airport gate at the scheduled time. There was a general grumbling around the cabin to the effect that most passengers did not feel this was right.

How would you feel about that situation? Who do you feel should have been allowed to take the flight? I don't have any info on why the couple arrived at the gate late or whether they had any special considerations in play.

IF they were late arrivals from another connection, they should have been allowed to board, since they were actively travelling on their tickets. If that was the case, shame on the airline for having given up their seats. OTOH, if they were just late to the airport, then they missed their assigned time to be there, and they should not have been allowed to have anyone removed, whether they were a standby or not.


And don't get me wrong. I have taken plenty of advantage of the bumping process, but I still think it needs to be fixed. It is BAD (broken as designed).

My best Bump occurred around '91 or so. We used to connect through Pittsburgh for almost every flight (guess who the airline was). I was on my way to Atlanta, from upstate NY, and was to pick up a Rental car. They asked for volunteers for a bump for a R/T voucher. I asked when the next flight was I could get on. She looked around and said, hey, there is a flight leaving from a gate quite a ways away in just a few minutes. Would I mind hustling? However, my bags would not be pulled, so I would have to wait in Atlanta for my scheduled flight. I got the R/T voucher, they called the gate to make sure they waited for me, and I hauled it to the other gate. Got into Atlanta 1 hour earlier, got my Rental car all squared away, and was sitting in baggage claim waiting for my bags to come in on my original flight, and had a free R/T voucher in my pocket. That was my best one.

Quote: Doc

How would you feel about that situation? Who do you feel should have been allowed to take the flight? I don't have any info on why the couple arrived at the gate late or whether they had any special considerations in play.

I'm very strictly punctual. I consider showing up 5 minutes before an appointment to be running late.

So you get three guesses :P

Seriously, the late passengers should not have been allowed to board.

Wizard, you must be very unlucky or fly a LOT to have experienced so many involuntary bumps. I am not a frequent flyer but I would guess I have flown approximately 50 times in my life and have never been bumped. Nobody in my immediate family has ever been either.

Quote: jml24

Wizard, you must be very unlucky or fly a LOT to have experienced so many involuntary bumps. I am not a frequent flyer but I would guess I have flown approximately 50 times in my life and have never been bumped. Nobody in my immediate family has ever been either.

I suspect it has more to do with location, and destinations, than it does with luck.

I've been bumped twice. One was actually an in-cabin bump/upgrade. I don't know why they picked me, but I get upgraded to First Class on the same plane I was scheduled for! The only trouble is, now when I fly, I miss having that big fat seat for my big fat ass.

For years I would volunteer as soon as I got to the gate, but I've always been told that they don't bump anymore. This is with Continental. So lately, I've stopped volunteering.

I'm gonna volunteer again on Sunday when I head to Vegas....

Quote: Wizard

I had a flight from Vegas to Burbank, leaving late a night. I HAD to be in Burbank the next morning.
...
I told the woman at the gate that I would sweeten the offer by $500 cash, which I produced, and asked her to make the offer. She refused to.

I winder why she refused.

Vegas to Burbank? 275 miles? For $500, I wonder if you could have hired a limo, or even a taxi....

The online booking system for Airtran will show you seat maps from the search results screen where you pick a flight. For a few dollars more you can even choose a seat at the time of booking rather than waiting until you get to the airport. I'm guessing this extra cost gives you a bit more priority in the case of overbooking as you are showing up to the airport with a seat number already on your boarding pass. The fee varies depending on seat location (e.g. $6 aisle/window, $12 exit row). I think center seats in a non-exit row may be free.

Quote: jml24

Wizard, you must be very unlucky or fly a LOT to have experienced so many involuntary bumps. I am not a frequent flyer but I would guess I have flown approximately 50 times in my life and have never been bumped. Nobody in my immediate family has ever been either.

From my perspective, every time somebody has a run of bad luck at an Internet casino they send me an adjective-laden Email accusing the casino of cheating. Without any numerical evidence I can only say that some players will fall way on the negative side of the bell curve, but that doesn't mean the casino is cheating. Of course, said players are never very comforted by that, because to them they only know of their own experience.

Maybe in this situation I'm the player who played 200 hands of 21 without a single blackjack. The talk and statistics about how good the airlines are is of no comfort. As mentioned, somebody quoted that Hawaiian Airlines has an involuntary bump rate of 1 in 125,000. However, I was personally affected by the 1. I nearly got into a fist fight with a Honolulu cab driver as a result, but that is another story.

All I'm saying is there should be a significant punishment for involuntary bumps. It should be treated as a breach of contract, false advertising, and whatever other charge I could pin on them. The airlines better hope I am never in a position of oversight of their industry, because they would face the full fury of my wrath.

Wiz wrote: "...I nearly got into a fist fight with a Honolulu cab driver as a result, but that is another story...."

Wiz - I know you do triathlon's and like to bike & run for exercise - but you're my age! The cab driver [sight unseen] is probably younger, but out of shape from sitting in a car all day... I smell a pay-per-view. All I want is a Don Kingesque 90/10 split with you.