CasinoAppBad
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 6:31:00 PM permalink
Not sure if this is the right section to post this, but I thought I would share my story.

In 2021, my local casino invited me to the launch party of their app. They paid me around $300 to come to this event, and gave a power point presentation on how to sign up for the app. How to install it, how to add your banking information to it, the whole nine yards.

In the second half of 2022, I start to use their app. This app is made by a huge fintech company. I would say they have a monopoly on all financial services at casinos. From Vegas to local casinos.

So as I start to use their app, I noticed that the app would sometimes put my withdrawals back into my app and to my bank. This didn't happen all the time, but some times.

I figured they would eventually just initiate a withdrawal from my bank to correct it. Either way, I decided to contact them. I did a phone call at one point, and was told I would get a call back.

Weeks went by with no call back. I then tried to contact them via the app. But their app wouldn't let me send messages. This is how broken their app is.

I eventually found an email address for a manager who works there. She took the information and submitted it to the ACH department.

I never heard back either. So I would talk to casino employees. Every employee hated this app. Told me customers complained about it, money wouldn't transfer correctly, etc. To this day, my friends who work there tell me this app still has issues where people's money will go to another player's account or get "lost". And I forgot to mention, this app is so you can add/withdraw money to your e-wallet, and use bluetooth to connect your phone to slots and table games to transfer funds to/from.

Anyways, this all happened in 2022. In 2024, gaming agents arrested me for theft. The prosecutor dropped the charges, but the damages are done. I lost my job, when you google my name, my mug shot appears, currently am in therapy. No place will hire me now.

So now I will be initiating a civil suit in the upcoming weeks against this company and the casino company itself.

I make this as a warning to others, and because I saw on this forum about the BetMGM "glitch" thread. The consensus in that thread was that the gaming agents are there for the casino, as revenue collectors. And boy is that right. These gaming agents that arrested me were nothing but thugs. They yelled at me on the phone, went to my house, place of employment, then sent an arrest warrant out without notifying my lawyer and sent 8 local police officers to my house, guns drawn, to arrest me.

Here is proof of me both trying to contact them via the app, and a manager saying she forwarded me concern to the ACH department:

Well, I can't post links because of a limit.

Trying to find a work around but the anti spam implementations are pretty strong.
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 6:56:52 PM permalink
So they took just under two years to arrest you, or you kept using the app and kept having money returned to your bank account, up until or closer to when you were arrested?

Because typically unless a case is complex, there is a sort of rule of thumb where if charges aren't filed within six months of the act, they are never filed. This has nothing to do with any statute of limitations, just the way things usually happen because time passes, more cases cross the agent's desk, and eventually the matter gets buried.

Also, what happened to those funds that were returned to you? You left them sitting in your bank account or eventually utilized the funds somehow?
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:12:14 PM permalink
Just after a quick search, something similar:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sportsbook/comments/113tiu8/glitch_in_betting_app_incorrectly_credited_my/

Glitch in Betting App Incorrectly Credited my Account $2K - Can I keep the money?

Don't want to go into too many details in case the people that operate this website are lurking here, but one of the betting websites I use has a feature where you can cancel a bet. The other day I tried cancelling a bet and when I hit the button on my phone nothing happened, so I hit it a few more times before the bet finally cancelled. I then looked at my account balance, and the website credited me for each time I hit the cancel button instead of just 1 refund for the original bet. This was a sizeable bet and I hit the button a few times, so overall my balance is about $2K higher than it should be. I haven't tried withdrawing yet, so the money is just sitting in my account. My question is, if I do withdraw, can the website come back later and say I owe them the money if they discover the error? Will they possibly ban my account if I don't tell them?


https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/3nveob/betting_site_accidently_credited_me_a_fairly/

Betting site accidently credited me a fairly large amount of money - Can I withdraw?

I'm looking for some advice here. I'm a resident in the UK firstly. Today I logged into an old sportsbook account I had for a site I only ever placed 1 bet on, and it lost. Upon logging in, my balance was around £400 which is obviously a mistake on the sites behalf.

I was wondering if I'd be committing any crimes by not notifying them of their error and withdrawing it?
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:28:45 PM permalink
Oh yeah, you made me realize I forgot to add some more information. No my account was actually locked then in December 2022. I went to my local casino cage and they called the company for me while I was there. They wouldn't talk about it and said I would hear back.

I never heard back. To this day, I have never been contacted by the app fintech company nor my local casino on it. In fact, the day before I was arrested, I lost $8,000 there.
Also, during my meeting with gaming agents, my casino host gave me tickets to a concert. They wanted me to keep playing during all of this, so I didn't think anything serious would come of it.

The money was sitting there until I played it back at the casino. The casino employees and I decided it was best to not use it for personal things. Instead, just play until I lost it all. Which I did. We decided this because in the app's terms of conditions, it states:

"It is your responsibility to contact us or the Participating Casino if you believe an error or unauthorized transaction has occurred".

Which I did.

Then it further states:

"In the event of an error, you authorize us to make the appropriate adjustment to your Wallet Account. You agree that if any sum is incorrectly credited to your Wallet Account in error, we may reverse such credit(s) and/or recover such sum(s) from your Wallet Account with interest, if withdrawn. If the improperly credited sum(s)
are used for gaming credits or transferred to a Connected System, or used to make purchases via Wallet Services, we, or the Participating Casino can void (i.e., cancel) all such transaction(s) and reverse any winnings."

Keyword is "may", and if there are any winnings, reverse such winnings. There were no winnings. I had no one physical to give the money back to, like I could my local bank if there was an error at the ATM. So myself and casino employees thought it was just best to show I used it at the casino with losses and I didn't profit from it.

It was a unique situation because this happened to around 50 other people in my state with this company. So surely they knew about it.
ChumpChange
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:32:25 PM permalink
Geez, what bank is running these accounts? Wells Fargo? Commonwealth of Australia? The usual suspects of banks with corrupt employees? Or is this just an app full of glitches that goes cross-accounts?
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:41:43 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoAppBad

The money was sitting there until I played it back at the casino.
link to original post


There is probably more to this story, but just that right there brands you lucky that they dropped the charges.

Also, when exactly did you play the money back? How long before your arrest?

How much money are we talking about?
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:43:22 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Geez, what bank is running these accounts? Wells Fargo? Commonwealth of Australia? The usual suspects of banks with corrupt employees? Or is this just an app full of glitches that goes cross-accounts?
link to original post



I want to know too. When the lawsuit is filed, discovery will be interesting.

I want to know about all these other people's issues too.

So the fintech company admitted to the gaming agents it was their fault. They didn't say how. Because I forget if I said, not every withdrawal had this issue.

About half the time, it worked as planned. The other half, it had this issue.

I wouldn't know until I withdrew from the app to my bank.

I also am a gambler who for the past few years, had over $250,000 in W2Gs. So I do gamble a lot.
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:45:22 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: CasinoAppBad

The money was sitting there until I played it back at the casino.
link to original post


There is probably more to this story, but just that right there brands you lucky that they dropped the charges.
link to original post



Not sure how else there can be more. I have proof of me contacting the app company that there is an issue, it didn't have this issue all the time.

In fact, if there was more to the story, why would the prosecutor drop the charges? The app company admits it was their mistake, I attempted to make it right via phone, app, and email. And have proof of all of this. My local casino kept saying to use the app, gave promotions and doubled your winnings for using the app.

But please tell me what you think is shady. It actually will prepare me for the civil suit, to see what people on the other side think.
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:50:31 PM permalink
I asked a couple other questions before you quoted me.

Also, when exactly did you play the money back? How long before your arrest?

How much money are we talking about?
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 7:53:37 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoAppBad

just play until I lost it all. Which I did.
link to original post


I went back to the casino and gambled it away isn't the same as returning it.

Consider for example a lawsuit that a person who was arrested for shoplifting has against the store, if the charges are dropped (either never filed, or filed and then dismissed). Dropped charges don't always mean that the store didn't have probable cause to detain and swear out a citizen's arrest. Probable cause by most states' statutes that govern a shopkeeper's rights to detain would defeat a civil action for false imprisonment, if the circumstances and facts establish that the store acted reasonably in detaining the customer. Just something to consider.

There is a possible unclean hands problem with your lawsuit since you didn't return the money.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:00:29 PM permalink
I understand that. When I don't want the money in my account, and no one is contacting me back, I felt it was the safer option. Will it bite me in the ass? We will see.

There was no physical person to give it to. The casino employees didn't have a procedure for it, and the fintech company took my concern and never got back to me. Again, we will see if it bites me in the ass for the civil suit.

If I didn't gamble it back, it would still be sitting in my account to this day. Around 2 years later. It would now be intermingled with income, expenses, and all that.

As for your other questions, I played it back following the account closure and after not hearing back from the company.

The arrest came around 18 months after this all started, and 13 months after account closure.

As for your edit, in my mind, which I hate reiterating this, there is no one to give it back to so the only way to give it back, was by losing it back to the casino. This way, the casino and the fintech company can work it out.

Oh yeah, and for the amount, the prosecutor told my attorney it was around $12,000 after looking at my bank statements.
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:01:55 PM permalink
Thirteen months after, that's interesting. And there were no intervening events that would have aggravated the casino to turn against you?
Last edited by: MDawg on Apr 29, 2024
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:03:45 PM permalink
Nope. My host still contacted me for events in all of 2023 and 2024. I got flight reimbursements from my casino, free play, gifts, etc. Everything was normal.

Funny enough, the regular casino employees are on my side of all this. I am such a local that I am facebook friends with over 30 of them. From the floor, to dealers, slot attendants, cage workers, and even restaurant workers.
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:22:43 PM permalink
It's worth a shot but if the case isn't settled and I were representing the casino I'd make much of that you didn't return the money and instead came to the casino to see what you could do with it. Playing it doesn't automatically mean losing it. The dollar amount involved makes a difference too.

However, especially if you may find an attorney to take the case on contingency, it's a worthwhile lawsuit.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
ChumpChange
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:46:39 PM permalink
Looks a bit class actionist.
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:49:03 PM permalink
It's definitely an argument. But then I would, through deposition and trial, have two slot attendants, one pit boss, and one dealer, who will testify that I brought this to their attention, and we all agreed it was best to do it this way. As agents of the casino, I followed their advice. They stated they can't take the money, to contact the fintech company (which I did), and eventually we decided to just lose it so there is a financial record to show I didn't gain anything.

There is no perfect situation on how to handle this. I'll argue that the casino and app were negligent in releasing a broken app for half a year. Well actually, to this day it is still broken. Ignoring requests on how to resolve it. I followed their clear instructions in the terms of conditions. They never asked for the money back so it's safe to assume, 12+ months later, what I did was fine.

But trials are a hit or miss, so who knows.

Also, I already have an attorney on this. I haven't pushed it through yet with his firm because I am also in contact with a big firm out of Chicago. I haven't heard back yet if they are going to take it on or not.
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:49:45 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Looks a bit class actionist.
link to original post



Yup and that's what the big Chicago firm is interested in. When I told them it happened to people all over my state, their ears perked up.
ChumpChange
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April 29th, 2024 at 8:53:58 PM permalink
I don't know when you run out of your allotment of posts for the day or when a new day starts for you, but I'm thinking 10 posts a day for new posters, but I've really lost track of that rule. I think you've said enough and you should take a break until you can post more.
CasinoAppBad
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April 29th, 2024 at 9:10:29 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I don't know when you run out of your allotment of posts for the day or when a new day starts for you, but I'm thinking 10 posts a day for new posters, but I've really lost track of that rule. I think you've said enough and you should take a break until you can post more.
link to original post



I agree. Thanks chumpchange.

It's been hard to not talk to anyone about this. While I left company names out, unfortunately it's pretty common sense who the fintech company is. But the casino is harder to figure out at least.

But yes, you are right. I will update this in a few months.
darkoz
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April 29th, 2024 at 9:11:02 PM permalink
Playing devils advocate but the casino will probably counter sue you for the $12,000.

Yes you lost it back to them but they will say you still owe it because gambling it back isn't the same as paying it back.

You "spent" $12,000 of services.

Let's say this was and identical situation with a Disney app only usable at their parks. You got credited with $12,000 on the app, asked them how to return it and finally decided the best way to return it was to spend it at their parks. So you brought the family for a week to the park and enjoyed the hotels and rides until it was "all given back".

Sounds wrong? Well, the casino will sat that's what you did. Gambled with their money until you gave back their money and you owe them your money.

As for the employees giving you the advice to do that it was just bad advice and ultimately may not help. Again compare it to any other venue like Disney or whatever. If Disney employees told you to spend the money at the park that didn't belong to you would that be a defense?

I am not an attorney but I do have some sense of how casinos and attorneys think so that's my two cents
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MDawg
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April 29th, 2024 at 9:24:18 PM permalink
A class action is for similarly situated plaintiffs similarly damaged.

Your claimed damages flow from being arrested over this. What about the others? If all that happened to them is that they got to keep the money how are they in your plaintiff class. What are their damages?

And D.Oz is right in a way. You benefitted to the tune of $12,000. It is an interesting argument that you returned it by gambling it away but itís just the concoction of a group of people whose say isnít definitive even if some of them worked at the casino.

Anyway if an attorney firm takes it on contingency run with it see where it goes. If the firm wants you to pay anything especially more than costs then you know right then thatís itís not the greatest case.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
SOOPOO
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April 30th, 2024 at 3:27:57 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

It's worth a shot but if the case isn't settled and I were representing the casino I'd make much of that you didn't return the money and instead came to the casino to see what you could do with it. Playing it doesn't automatically mean losing it. The dollar amount involved makes a difference too.

However, especially if you may find an attorney to take the case on contingency, it's a worthwhile lawsuit.
link to original post



Agree 100%.

Any Ďagents of the casinoí that told you the best way to handle this was to gamble the money away are ĎfÖing moronsí. If you had hit it big gambling that money what were you going to do with the winnings?

If I received a few dollars like you did Iíd ignore it. If it was 4 or 5 figures Iíd figure out a way to give it back, not use it for gambling.

This all being said, you sound like an upright kind of guy. Iím surprised you got fired from a job for just being arrested? Can you give any more details?
Nathan
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April 30th, 2024 at 3:42:29 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: MDawg

It's worth a shot but if the case isn't settled and I were representing the casino I'd make much of that you didn't return the money and instead came to the casino to see what you could do with it. Playing it doesn't automatically mean losing it. The dollar amount involved makes a difference too.

However, especially if you may find an attorney to take the case on contingency, it's a worthwhile lawsuit.
link to original post



Agree 100%.

Any Ďagents of the casinoí that told you the best way to handle this was to gamble the money away are ĎfÖing moronsí. If you had hit it big gambling that money what were you going to do with the winnings?

If I received a few dollars like you did Iíd ignore it. If it was 4 or 5 figures Iíd figure out a way to give it back, not use it for gambling.

This all being said, you sound like an upright kind of guy. Iím surprised you got fired from a job for just being arrested? Can you give any more details?
link to original post



Lots of people get fired just for being arrested. A lot of Employers don't want to keep Employees who have arrest records.. 💡
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
Slotenthusiast
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April 30th, 2024 at 5:22:59 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoAppBad

I understand that. When I don't want the money in my account, and no one is contacting me back, I felt it was the safer option. Will it bite me in the ass? We will see.

There was no physical person to give it to. The casino employees didn't have a procedure for it, and the fintech company took my concern and never got back to me. Again, we will see if it bites me in the ass for the civil suit.

If I didn't gamble it back, it would still be sitting in my account to this day. Around 2 years later. It would now be intermingled with income, expenses, and all that.

As for your other questions, I played it back following the account closure and after not hearing back from the company.

The arrest came around 18 months after this all started, and 13 months after account closure.

As for your edit, in my mind, which I hate reiterating this, there is no one to give it back to so the only way to give it back, was by losing it back to the casino. This way, the casino and the fintech company can work it out.

Oh yeah, and for the amount, the prosecutor told my attorney it was around $12,000 after looking at my bank statements.
link to original post



Thereís most definitely a way of giving it back. You simply mail a check to the ewallet or casino itself. I get that the casino is using an intermediary for the e-wallet, but it doesnít matter. Both are licensed casino operators and if you sent the check to the wrong company they would figure things out. Even if they couldnít figure it out youíd be covering yourself by sending back the money. Had you done this the gaming agents and police would have likely not arrested you nor anyone come to your house.

You also admitted to not only continue using the app after the errors, but gambling with money that wasnít yours stating ďyou played it backĒ

You also fail to say what state or country this is in.

Not a lawyer but I donít think you have a case here. I think youíre lucky the charges were dropped. 12k is felony grand theft almost everywhere. There are no finders keepers laws in the US when it comes to this sort of thing.

You most certainly bit yourself in the ass by gambling money that wasnít yours. This will show a judge that you lack credibility as well. Had you not gambled the money away you might have a case.
Last edited by: Slotenthusiast on Apr 30, 2024
Nathan
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April 30th, 2024 at 5:57:09 AM permalink
Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: CasinoAppBad

I understand that. When I don't want the money in my account, and no one is contacting me back, I felt it was the safer option. Will it bite me in the ass? We will see.

There was no physical person to give it to. The casino employees didn't have a procedure for it, and the fintech company took my concern and never got back to me. Again, we will see if it bites me in the ass for the civil suit.

If I didn't gamble it back, it would still be sitting in my account to this day. Around 2 years later. It would now be intermingled with income, expenses, and all that.

As for your other questions, I played it back following the account closure and after not hearing back from the company.

The arrest came around 18 months after this all started, and 13 months after account closure.

As for your edit, in my mind, which I hate reiterating this, there is no one to give it back to so the only way to give it back, was by losing it back to the casino. This way, the casino and the fintech company can work it out.

Oh yeah, and for the amount, the prosecutor told my attorney it was around $12,000 after looking at my bank statements.
link to original post



Thereís most definitely a way of giving it back. You simply mail a check to the ewallet or casino itself. I get that the casino is using an intermediary for the e-wallet, but it doesnít matter. Both are licensed casino operators and if you sent the check to the wrong company they would figure things out. Even if they couldnít figure it out youíd be covering yourself by sending back the money. Had you done this the gaming agents and police would have likely not arrested you nor anyone come to your house.

You also admitted to not only continue using the app after the errors, but gambling with money that wasnít yours stating ďyou played it backĒ

You also fail to say what state or country this is in.

Not a lawyer but I donít think you have a case here. I think youíre lucky the charges were dropped. 12k is felony grand theft almost everywhere. There are no finders keepers laws in the US when it comes to this sort of thing.

You most certainly bit yourself in the ass by gambling money that wasnít yours. This will show a judge that you lack credibility as well. Had you not gambled the money away you might have a case.
link to original post



In his defense, the Employees TOLD him to gamble it back. Couldn't this be a case of Entrapment? 🤔💡
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
DRich
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April 30th, 2024 at 6:00:30 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoAppBad


As for your edit, in my mind, which I hate reiterating this, there is no one to give it back to so the only way to give it back, was by losing it back to the casino. This way, the casino and the fintech company can work it out.



That is a ridiculous statement. If I steal money $1000 from Amazon, then I spend $1000 at Amazon buying stuff. Do you think we are even? I am not implying that you stole the money but gambling it back does not make the company whole. You still took a service from them that you never paid for.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
CasinoAppBad
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April 30th, 2024 at 7:43:14 AM permalink
I think a lot of people are really focusing on the gambling it back thing. Especially the Amazon example. In the Amazon example, if you were overpaid $1,000 by Amazon and used it to buy something, you still gain something in the end.

First, again this is uncharted waters. The casino did not know what to do with it, kept telling me to use the app, and I never heard back from the fintech company. I have proof of all this.

Secondly, the gambling it back is not my main defense. The casino nor the fintech company has asked me for this money back. You can't overpay someone, not ask for it back, then go to the cops and say they stole money from you. Especially after telling the cops it was your mistake and you overpaid ~50 people but ignored their requests on how to resolve it.

Third, this is a civil issue, not criminal. There's no criminal element here, and that's another thing the prosecutor brought up and why we are going for a civil case. When I have evidence of trying to resolve it and the fintech company ignoring me, there's no criminal element.

Fourth, again, the apps own terms of service, a binding contract, states they just may ask for the money back. Not that they will. Just may. And to contact them with any issues. Which I did. It also states I believe they will get back to me within 45 days at most. They never got back to me.

Fifth, there are other scenarios worse than mine, where no criminal charges were filed. Robinhood, Door Dash and Cash App had huge issues where users took advantage of a glitch. For example, Robinhood had two separate glitches and ate the cost:

ml

/2023/02/09/robinhood-glitch-expense-short-q4-2022-earnings-57-million-one-day/

Doordash also had two types of glitches and no criminal charges were filed. Instead, they took the money back from the users:

/2021/05/27/doordash-glitch-gives-thousands-to-drivers-then-takes-it-back/

ml

Then not similar to mine, but an interesting case nonetheless, was a duo who found a glitch on video poker. The feds tried to charge them but in the end, the courts found that they were pressing buttons they were allowed to press and therefore, not liable for anything.

/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/


The point of these articles is to show issues happen. They do not lead to criminal charges (minus the VP issue which was dismissed).

If a company admits they overpaid you, doesn't ask for it back, their business partner keeps telling you to use the app, their agents tell you what they think is best to resolve it, and you comply, then criminal charges are a broad overreach in my opinion.

Again, I do like the other views on this as it shows me how a jury might think.

I admit this isn't a slam dunk case. And who knows, maybe the casino and the fintech company will just settle instead of having it go public. Because for one thing, this fintech company did not talk about it on any of their earnings calls, nor has the casino. And both their stocks are down tremendously.
MDawg
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April 30th, 2024 at 8:13:15 AM permalink
People working the floor of a casino are not its agents.
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RuddyDuck
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April 30th, 2024 at 9:40:25 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

People working the floor of a casino are not its agents.
link to original post



It is typical for table games positions above supervisor to communicate casino decisions to guests. Depending what our poster identified as a "pit boss" could be important.
darkoz
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April 30th, 2024 at 10:08:09 AM permalink
It is a civil issue now but again the casino services are gambling. You spent the services, you didn't pay them back and they will probably counter sue you for the money.

The casino hands out markers all the time. While that is an agreement in advance between patron and casino imagine if paying back a marker was as easy as claiming you lost the money gambling. "Well, the casino got back it's money"

Basically you got an unintended marker. You spent it.

BTW, the double up bug is probably NOT the best example to raise if I were you. THEY HAD TO PAY THE .MONEY BACK.
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MDawg
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April 30th, 2024 at 11:57:09 AM permalink
Quote: MathNeverLies

Hello all, wait to you hear this. A friend of mine asked me not to post this because heís super underground and private but I had to share to get some input. A few weeks ago he and a friend hit a jackpot on a slot machine. It was over 10,000 but under 20,000 (donít want to be too specific for privacy concerns), anyways he and his friend built a ticket up 200.00 each a night prior and said the next day they will use the ticket for a specific machine. These two friends share money all the time on slot machines, but his friend hit the button and my friend claimed the jackpot to the slot lead. The slot lead was specifically asked if itís okay for my friend claim the taxes and the jackpot even though he didnít hit the spin button, and the slot lead said it was fine and paid my friend out. Ten days later my friend gets a call from director of security saying the directors of the casino had a meeting and he his friend are both permently banned.
link to original post


Just another example of where what some casino employee on the floor says, isn't gospel.
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unJon
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April 30th, 2024 at 12:00:52 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: MathNeverLies

Hello all, wait to you hear this. A friend of mine asked me not to post this because heís super underground and private but I had to share to get some input. A few weeks ago he and a friend hit a jackpot on a slot machine. It was over 10,000 but under 20,000 (donít want to be too specific for privacy concerns), anyways he and his friend built a ticket up 200.00 each a night prior and said the next day they will use the ticket for a specific machine. These two friends share money all the time on slot machines, but his friend hit the button and my friend claimed the jackpot to the slot lead. The slot lead was specifically asked if itís okay for my friend claim the taxes and the jackpot even though he didnít hit the spin button, and the slot lead said it was fine and paid my friend out. Ten days later my friend gets a call from director of security saying the directors of the casino had a meeting and he his friend are both permently banned.
link to original post


Just another example of where what some casino employee on the floor says, isn't gospel.
link to original post



Obviously not gospel since he got arrested. The question is more whether there was reasonable reliance / apparent agency.

I agree the casino can countersue for the $12k.

Itís an interesting law school exam issue spotter.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
MDawg
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April 30th, 2024 at 12:31:18 PM permalink
What will be interesting is how these casino employees word whatever they have to say at deposition or trial. Will they wholeheartedly support the plaintiff's version of events, or give a more qualified sort of support? They are after all casino employees first, and anything else, afterwards.

I'd be surprised if at the end of the day any of them offered on the record much more than an unofficial, "I was just trying to be helpful."

I understand the concept of - how exactly do I return the money, I mean the cage wouldn't know what to do with it, they just deal with front money deposits or marker payments, but that's not to say that he couldn't have given the money to an attorney to deposit into a trust account and then have the attorney write to casino corporate outlining what is going on and stating that he is ready to transfer the funds to them. That would have covered his arse in all respects, and laid open the premise for a really clean lawsuit if they had still arrested him after such an offer.

Or, if he didn't want to pay for an attorney, written a check from his account and mailed it something like certified, return receipt requested to them saying the same things an attorney would have said.

That sort of action - tendering an offer to return the money, puts the ball in their court and then the ticking of the clock with inaction benefits him.

Going in there and gambling the money away didn't solve anything other than severing him from the deposit - the money isn't returned, the money is now gone, and the whole thing makes him look bad.
Last edited by: MDawg on Apr 30, 2024
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unJon
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April 30th, 2024 at 12:32:53 PM permalink
Yup thatís key. A good plaintiff lawyer will try to find a former employee that was involved.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
ChumpChange
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Nathan
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April 30th, 2024 at 2:18:36 PM permalink
Casino app, I personally wonder if you should have just said to the Casino Employees that told you to gamble the money away something like,"I'm REALLY not comfortable gambling the money back. There's a HUGE possibility I can end up arrested and booked/jailed for this if I gamble back the money. I'd rather cover my butt and give it directly to a Casino Manager on camera and then leave." 💡🤔
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
ChumpChange
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April 30th, 2024 at 2:33:45 PM permalink
There was an episode of Vegas where the casino management made a big BJ winner suspected of being crooked play at a specific table against a card mechanic and lose all his money back or he would suffer the usual Vegas consequences of physical harm. That would explain why a lot of real life big winners wind up broke in Vegas.
gordonm888
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April 30th, 2024 at 4:13:26 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

I've got a new post. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/39112-digital-wallets-are-here/#post925019
link to original post



Why did you post this? Why are you announcing that you made a post in the digital wallets thread here in this "How was I arrested" thread?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
ChumpChange
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April 30th, 2024 at 4:27:28 PM permalink
According to the comment made in the video section, funds were being redirected to other accounts upon cash-out from a slot machine instead of to a voucher. So some unsuspecting card holder of the slot app may wind up with money they have no clue how it got there and no idea how to return it, same as the OP of this thread. It's becoming a pattern and a potential widespread glitch.
Quote: CasinoAppBad


I never heard back either. So I would talk to casino employees. Every employee hated this app. Told me customers complained about it, money wouldn't transfer correctly, etc. To this day, my friends who work there tell me this app still has issues where people's money will go to another player's account or get "lost". And I forgot to mention, this app is so you can add/withdraw money to your e-wallet, and use bluetooth to connect your phone to slots and table games to transfer funds to/from.

Nathan
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April 30th, 2024 at 5:54:55 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: ChumpChange

I've got a new post. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/39112-digital-wallets-are-here/#post925019
link to original post



Why did you post this? Why are you announcing that you made a post in the digital wallets thread here in this "How was I arrested" thread?
link to original post



I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and say that maybe Chump Change was trying to imply that a digital wallet might have helped out Casino App in his sticky situation? 🤷‍♀️🤔💡
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
ChumpChange
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April 30th, 2024 at 6:19:59 PM permalink
In the OP's case, and he may not be able or want to respond, he made withdrawals that went to the app and to his bank account and his description leads me to believe the glitch in his case was that it would do both instead of one or the other. So if he's trying to withdraw $1,000 it credits his app $1,000 and his bank account $1,000 instead of one or the other. That kind of glitch happening multiple times can add up to $12K easily enough. I don't know how he spends down $12K per casino employee instructions when there might be a $3K limit per withdrawal. But if he's at a table game it can be done at max bet quite easily.
Slotenthusiast
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April 30th, 2024 at 6:37:49 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoAppBad

I think a lot of people are really focusing on the gambling it back thing. Especially the Amazon example. In the Amazon example, if you were overpaid $1,000 by Amazon and used it to buy something, you still gain something in the end.

First, again this is uncharted waters. The casino did not know what to do with it, kept telling me to use the app, and I never heard back from the fintech company. I have proof of all this.

Secondly, the gambling it back is not my main defense. The casino nor the fintech company has asked me for this money back. You can't overpay someone, not ask for it back, then go to the cops and say they stole money from you. Especially after telling the cops it was your mistake and you overpaid ~50 people but ignored their requests on how to resolve it.

Third, this is a civil issue, not criminal. There's no criminal element here, and that's another thing the prosecutor brought up and why we are going for a civil case. When I have evidence of trying to resolve it and the fintech company ignoring me, there's no criminal element.

Fourth, again, the apps own terms of service, a binding contract, states they just may ask for the money back. Not that they will. Just may. And to contact them with any issues. Which I did. It also states I believe they will get back to me within 45 days at most. They never got back to me.

Fifth, there are other scenarios worse than mine, where no criminal charges were filed. Robinhood, Door Dash and Cash App had huge issues where users took advantage of a glitch. For example, Robinhood had two separate glitches and ate the cost:

ml

/2023/02/09/robinhood-glitch-expense-short-q4-2022-earnings-57-million-one-day/

Doordash also had two types of glitches and no criminal charges were filed. Instead, they took the money back from the users:

/2021/05/27/doordash-glitch-gives-thousands-to-drivers-then-takes-it-back/

ml

Then not similar to mine, but an interesting case nonetheless, was a duo who found a glitch on video poker. The feds tried to charge them but in the end, the courts found that they were pressing buttons they were allowed to press and therefore, not liable for anything.

/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/


The point of these articles is to show issues happen. They do not lead to criminal charges (minus the VP issue which was dismissed).

If a company admits they overpaid you, doesn't ask for it back, their business partner keeps telling you to use the app, their agents tell you what they think is best to resolve it, and you comply, then criminal charges are a broad overreach in my opinion.

Again, I do like the other views on this as it shows me how a jury might think.

I admit this isn't a slam dunk case. And who knows, maybe the casino and the fintech company will just settle instead of having it go public. Because for one thing, this fintech company did not talk about it on any of their earnings calls, nor has the casino. And both their stocks are down tremendously.
link to original post



lol a jury. Bro you have absolutely no case and if your ďcaseĒ goes to trial and you didnít hire a lawyer on contingency you will end up owing tens of thousands in attorney fees.

Why would the casino settle with you when you already spent 12 grand of their money?

It makes absolutely no difference whether they gave it to you in error or not.

Also a judge would have had to sign an arrest warrant which is requested by the Prosecutor. Casinos canít sign arrest warrants. What probably happened is your attorney had a discussion with the prosecutor and the DA decided to drop the charges. You will likely end up getting sued for the 12 grand.
Mental
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May 1st, 2024 at 9:05:11 AM permalink
I find it disturbing that you could be arrested for using money that just appeared in your account when you did nothing to cause the faulty transaction.

Yet there are many AP's who deliberately induce casinos to send millions of dollars their way by pretending to be degenerate whales. The worst that happens is they get kicked out of the property. Don Johnson won most of his profits by going on a heater, but he was not asked to return the loss rebates from previous trips.

There are a number of people on WOV who have taken millions of promo money that the casinos would surely regret giving if they knew how sharp the player was. I think the casino should have just eaten the loss for your case, especially since you did not profit from it.
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darkoz
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May 1st, 2024 at 9:46:18 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

I find it disturbing that you could be arrested for using money that just appeared in your account when you did nothing to cause the faulty transaction.

Yet there are many AP's who deliberately induce casinos to send millions of dollars their way by pretending to be degenerate whales. The worst that happens is they get kicked out of the property. Don Johnson won most of his profits by going on a heater, but he was not asked to return the loss rebates from previous trips.

There are a number of people on WOV who have taken millions of promo money that the casinos would surely regret giving if they knew how sharp the player was. I think the casino should have just eaten the loss for your case, especially since you did not profit from it.
link to original post



The law distinguishes between "intentional" gifts and glitches.

Vying for a promotion from the boss, even perhaps unethically doesn't mean you stole from the boss when he awards the promotion.

However an accidental zero added to your paycheck and you take the overage and spend it is.

Obtaining loads of promos the casino has designed to be given away simply isn't on the same level as a glitch that awards more money accidentally.

That's probably why the double up bug resulted in the player's having to pay back the money.

Also, when a casino calls giveaways "free" or "promotional" the law sees those as indeed free (given without expectation of remuneration).

In the OP case even he knew the $12K was not a "free" giveaway and tried to return it.

Most likely he was arrested because the tech guys were already on it when the funds suddenly disappeared and they realized the guy they were trying to recoup from had just spent the money.
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SkittleCar1
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May 1st, 2024 at 9:50:37 AM permalink
The second I saw 1 cent out of place would be the second I would have withdrawn my funds, deleted and never touched it again.
MDawg
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May 1st, 2024 at 8:26:14 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

The law distinguishes between "intentional" gifts and glitches.
link to original post


Do you think so? Doesn't it have more to do with a "known or should have known" the money wasn't mine, standard? depending also on the dollar amount, especially relative to what is in the account.

There are people who have been prosecuted for receiving sums from their banks in error and not returning the funds.



If I routinely keep millions in my account and twenty grand appears out of nowhere, I might not notice it or at least might be excused from not noticing it. On the other hand if my average bank balance is $500. and $20,000. lands out of nowhere and I do nothing about it, it could be construed that I "should have known."

While certainly it's worse if I did something to make the funds appear, unintentional glitches don't make the money mine nor do they absolve me of potential criminal liability.

A $1.2 Million Bank Error Buys a House, and an Arrest, Officials Say
Kelyn Spadoni tried to keep a deposit that was off by five decimal places, according to the authorities, who said she was charged with fraud and fired from her job on the same day.

ďI think most people understand about how much money is in their bank accounts,Ē Capt. Jason Rivarde, a spokesman for the Sheriffís Office, said in an interview on Monday. ďWhen youíre expecting $80 and you get $1.2 million, thereís probably something wrong there.Ē


There are exceptions, of sorts:

How an Australian man milked a bank glitch for $2M and walked free
Six years ago, Luke Moore (LM) noticed something strange about his bank account.

The Australian man, then 22 years old, discovered that he could withdraw as much cash as he wanted ó long after he spent all the money he had deposited. So withdraw he did.

CO: What were you charged with?

LM: In Australia it's called fraud but what it actually is, is obtained money by deception and dealing with the proceeds of crime.

CO: A jury found you guilty and then what happened at your appeal?

LM: The court ruled that there was absolutely no evidence that a crime had even been committed. For the prosecution to prove that I had obtained money by deception they had to prove that I wasn't authorized to do what I did on the account. By looking at the terms of conditions of the account that I had in place with the bank, it clearly said that I was authorized to direct debit and overdraw your account.

CO: And the judge said it was dishonest, it was bad judgement, but it wasn't criminal.

LM: That's exactly right, yes.

CO: You did six months in jail though.

LM: Yes. If you want to get out you apply for bail and it took me six months before I got in front of a judge in the Supreme Court.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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May 1st, 2024 at 9:08:38 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

The law distinguishes between "intentional" gifts and glitches.
link to original post


Do you think so? Doesn't it have more to do with a "known or should have known" the money wasn't mine, standard? depending also on the dollar amount, especially relative to what is in the account.

There are people who have been prosecuted for receiving sums from their banks in error and not returning the funds.



If I routinely keep millions in my account and twenty grand appears out of nowhere, I might not notice it or at least might be excused from not noticing it. On the other hand if my average bank balance is $500. and $20,000. lands out of nowhere and I do nothing about it, it could be construed that I "should have known."

While certainly it's worse if I did something to make the funds appear, unintentional glitches don't make the money mine nor do they absolve me of potential criminal liability.

A $1.2 Million Bank Error Buys a House, and an Arrest, Officials Say
Kelyn Spadoni tried to keep a deposit that was off by five decimal places, according to the authorities, who said she was charged with fraud and fired from her job on the same day.

ďI think most people understand about how much money is in their bank accounts,Ē Capt. Jason Rivarde, a spokesman for the Sheriffís Office, said in an interview on Monday. ďWhen youíre expecting $80 and you get $1.2 million, thereís probably something wrong there.Ē


There are exceptions, of sorts:

How an Australian man milked a bank glitch for $2M and walked free
Six years ago, Luke Moore (LM) noticed something strange about his bank account.

The Australian man, then 22 years old, discovered that he could withdraw as much cash as he wanted ó long after he spent all the money he had deposited. So withdraw he did.

CO: What were you charged with?

LM: In Australia it's called fraud but what it actually is, is obtained money by deception and dealing with the proceeds of crime.

CO: A jury found you guilty and then what happened at your appeal?

LM: The court ruled that there was absolutely no evidence that a crime had even been committed. For the prosecution to prove that I had obtained money by deception they had to prove that I wasn't authorized to do what I did on the account. By looking at the terms of conditions of the account that I had in place with the bank, it clearly said that I was authorized to direct debit and overdraw your account.

CO: And the judge said it was dishonest, it was bad judgement, but it wasn't criminal.

LM: That's exactly right, yes.

CO: You did six months in jail though.

LM: Yes. If you want to get out you apply for bail and it took me six months before I got in front of a judge in the Supreme Court.
link to original post



I don't think we are disagreeing.
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Nathan
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May 2nd, 2024 at 1:56:24 AM permalink
Speaking of a roughly 1 million banking mistake, I read a news report way back in around 1999 about a man who suddenly realized he had about 1 million in his bank. He was JUST about to go on HUGE shopping sprees but his wife stopped him saying something like,"This is obviously a banking error. If you go on HUGE shopping sprees, the Bank will go after you and press charges for that money . Leave that million alone. Husband was like,"Maybe I should listen to my wife's advice," and didn't touch that Million. Sure enough, the Bank noticed the one Million Bank error and asked the guy for it back. The guy gave the Million back. 💡 At least he could honestly tell people he was with about a Million at at least one point in his life. 🤭
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
Mental
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May 2nd, 2024 at 3:29:41 AM permalink
An important aspect of this case is whether the glitch payment generated an inconsistency on the books.

Quote:

Double-entry bookkeeping is a method of recording transactions where for every business transaction, an entry is recorded in at least two accounts as a debit or credit. In a double-entry system, the amounts recorded as debits must be equal to the amounts recorded as credits.


When a credit mysteriously appears on an account, there should be a corresponding debit. If the debit is to another customer's account, they would likely complain. If the debit is to the wrong casino department, they would likely notice. If there is no matching entry, the account cannot be reconciled by the accounting software.

When I get a $1000 credit to my online balance, the transaction is also recorded as a promotional expense (debit). The accounting software is happy at the end of the month. The promotions manager might be called on the carpet if his promo budget is too costly relative to the extra play it generates. But my promo credit is one item among millions of similar transactions. No accounting system is going to flag my specific credit as being overly generous. In fact, this determination can only be made by looking at my cumulative promo credits and my average daily theo. Over the long term, my W/L should be a clue that the promotions department is being overly generous. In the short and medium term, W/L is meaningless if I have high daily variance.

Double-entry bookkeeping is probably the reason that someone in the casino was tasked with getting nasty with OP to get the money back while my larceny goes undetected.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
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Joined: Feb 3, 2015
May 2nd, 2024 at 6:40:57 AM permalink
I have used these digital wallets. The casino has nothing to do with them. They are administered and financially backed by Everi or another such company. Presumably the casino pays a fee to them (3% or whatever) for deposits made with the app. But itís all handled by the payment provider and any chargebacks/errors/non sufficient funds would be on them. Itís kind of surprising they wouldnít test/notice a glitch on their own software. It should be apparent to anyone that talks to casino employees that they donít know anything about correcting such an error and they should be directed to the company administering the app. I would certainly save any communication attempts with them trying to explain the situation.
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