rxwine
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November 20th, 2010 at 6:21:43 PM permalink
Just make tipping permissible ONLY when it is made as a bet on a game. (you bet for the employee, if you win, he/she wins)

Problem solved. Everyone wants you to win. Everyone is happy when you win, and if they're not it has nothing to do with you winning.

(or course, by everyone, I don't mean the owners necessarily)
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AZDuffman
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November 20th, 2010 at 6:27:07 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Of course it is.
People go into Sears, and if they walk out with a "free" drill they'll be arrested and made to give it back. Bottom line, a business cannot grow if it allows assets to just walk out the door. Stores have people who do it arrested. Casinos use all that is at their disposal in order to coerce and trick players to hand it over.


.



Again, not a valid comparrison. Sears offers products for a set price. I go in and see a rachet set for $50. A cashier settles this transaction. I can pay cash or credit, but if I try to walk out without paying the cashier would call security, or the cops, and I would be arrested. To enforce that I pay is the cashier's job.

Bellagio (or any casino) offers a game of chance with set rules. I go in and put $20 on the pass line, if a 7/11 hits on the come-out I get a $20 win. If a 2/3/12 hits I lost that $20 and instead of a rachet set I get nothing. I know the rules going in. The casino knows this. How does this compare with shoplifting a drill?

(hint: it is not a valid comparrison.)
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
dudestupid
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November 20th, 2010 at 6:36:27 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Seriously, stop paying and see how long you keep being treated. I



I know different doctors practice under different situations. A lot own their own practice. But that's a dying business model. It makes me sick when I have to stop seeing a patient because they can't pay. But I don't have any control over that. I'm an employee on a salary. I get paid from the same pot as the nurses, the schedulers, etc.

I don't do this job on my own. So if someone can't pay, and the financial department cuts them off, I just have to shrug it off. Every time I see a patient, they are using the services of the scheduler, the medical assistant, the doctor, the administrators, the cleaning staff, and the IT department. If the patient can't pay, it affects us all. We had across-the-board layoffs last year, including doctors.

(wow, this is straying off topic)
EvenBob
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November 20th, 2010 at 7:06:22 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Of course it is. People go into a casino, win, and take the money out.



Its fine with the casino if you win $200, as long as the guy next to you loses $300. Next time you come, you can reverse roles.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
JerryLogan
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November 20th, 2010 at 7:28:25 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Again, not a valid comparrison. Sears offers products for a set price. I go in and see a rachet set for $50. A cashier settles this transaction. I can pay cash or credit, but if I try to walk out without paying the cashier would call security, or the cops, and I would be arrested. To enforce that I pay is the cashier's job.

Bellagio (or any casino) offers a game of chance with set rules. I go in and put $20 on the pass line, if a 7/11 hits on the come-out I get a $20 win. If a 2/3/12 hits I lost that $20 and instead of a rachet set I get nothing. I know the rules going in. The casino knows this. How does this compare with shoplifting a drill?

(hint: it is not a valid comparrison.)



In a casino, you purchase that opportunity on that "game of chance". If you lose, they're satisfied and you're not, but that's it unless you try (purchase) again. But if you win, the casino is set up to do everything in their power, including manipulation of all sorts, to make you want to keep trying. And what happens when the player does that? Usually they lose.
In Sears, you make a purchase, leave, and that's it. There's no massive manipulation effort to prey on your weakness to get you to stay and buy more stuff.

I lost my idea on the drill.
mkl654321
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November 20th, 2010 at 7:49:16 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Of course it is. People go into a casino, win, and take the money out. Those are assets the casino is parting ways with and without a cry. They have no idea if they'll ever get it back, and even though overall things should be OK, a winner does not help the casino grow.

People go into Sears, and if they walk out with a "free" drill they'll be arrested and made to give it back. Bottom line, a business cannot grow if it allows assets to just walk out the door. Stores have people who do it arrested. Casinos use all that is at their disposal in order to coerce and trick players to hand it over.



What a casino sells is bets. One possible outcome of those bets is that the customer walks out the door with the casino's money. If that wasn't a possible outcome, no one would buy any of those bets. Now, the bet may be worth less than what the customer pays for it: when a customer buys a $100 bet on Red, that bet is worth less than $95. The difference is the casino's profit; the customer pays that difference voluntarily.

When Sears sells a drill, they are selling it for more than it cost them to buy it. The customer pays this difference--between the item's cost and its retail price--for the same reason that the casino's customer does. The transaction is voluntary.

The analogy with someone stealing a drill is therefore flawed. A customer doing that would be like someone grabbing chips out of the dealer's tray--or past posting--or putting slugs in a slot machine. It isn't part of the normal contractual relationship.

There is a difference between "assets" and "inventory". The assets of the casino are its buildings and equipment, just as the assets of Sears are its buildings and equipment. The drill, and the casino's money, are inventory. When a Sears customer walks out with a drill (having paid for it), or when a casino customer walks out with some of the casino's money (as the result of a winning bet), each is in possession of what they paid for, and each business remains in full possession of all its assets. It's a concept that confuses many people, but what produces the casino's profits is not the money per se, but the infrastructure, buildings, equipment, licenses, human capital in the form of training, etc.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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November 20th, 2010 at 8:04:19 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

In a casino, you purchase that opportunity on that "game of chance". If you lose, they're satisfied and you're not, but that's it unless you try (purchase) again. But if you win, the casino is set up to do everything in their power, including manipulation of all sorts, to make you want to keep trying. And what happens when the player does that? Usually they lose.
In Sears, you make a purchase, leave, and that's it. There's no massive manipulation effort to prey on your weakness to get you to stay and buy more stuff.

I lost my idea on the drill.



The source of your confusion is that the outcome of the casino transaction is uncertain; but the transaction is no less real for that. An analogous situation would be if instead of Sears selling you that drill for $80, it let you pay $45 for the chance to call a coin flip: guess right, you get the drill; guess wrong, you get nothing. If the Sears customer walked out of the store after a successful coin flip, he wouldn't be "stealing" it. The customer paid $45 for something that only had a value of $40--a 50/50 chance to win an $80 drill.

Now, if Sears advertised the chance to win that $80 drill for $45, and a customer accepted that offer, would the store be unhappy if a particular customer won the drill? Of course not. Whether they or the customer won any one particular time, they made $5 each of those times. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between the transaction described above, and them simply selling you the drill for $90. In either case, you will have to expend $90 to purchase an $80 drill. There's nothing evil about them advertising either the drill itself, or the opportunity to buy the coin flip to win the drill. Neither is there anything evil about the casino advertising the opportunity to buy a bet for less than it is worth. Any business entity that wants to survive MUST sell a product for less than its "worth", i.e., what it cost them to buy it.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Doc
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November 20th, 2010 at 8:26:11 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Name one business in the country that has no problem just giving away SOME of their products.

Pharmaceuticals. I did some logistics consulting for a major pharmaceutical firm. As I was analyzing their trucking system, I learned that they gave away basically half of their total production as samples through physicians' offices. This was one of the many interesting things I learned on that project.
EvenBob
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November 20th, 2010 at 8:47:31 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

What a casino sells is bets. .



No, what a casino sells is the false idea that you might get lucky and stay ahead of the casino. They sell this false hope on every billboard and in every commercial on TV and radio. People may say they know they can't get ahead and stay ahead, but what they really believe is they can at least win back all the money they've lost over the years. All they need is that one lucky streak.....
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 20th, 2010 at 9:09:34 PM permalink
So, what you're saying Bob is that when people do win - they get their false hopes paid with false money?

So, if you happen to win real money, then just maybe in those circumstances your "false hopes" was paid with real money. Dig that. and if you're there for entertainment and were happy with the entertainment (there's that word again....) then maybe it's not a sin to pay for such entertainment.

Tonight I dealt two more freakin' Royals, and the player had NO bonus bet in action.
On the first Royal, I advised him to give the bonus bet a try, to which he said What are the chances of THAT happening again.
Three hands later, another Royal for him. The rest of the table got another $50 each in Envy payments.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
rxwine
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November 20th, 2010 at 9:14:36 PM permalink
Which takes in more money? Lottery and and often associated scratch tickets or casinos? I'm betting lotteries, and they don't even really have to try hard.

So, it wouldn't be that hard anyway. And what fun does the lottery offer. Even less - perhaps none at all.

Yeah, I know, people are buying tickets to support a state's education program or something else. Well, it's as good a reason as any, but probably doesn't have a lot to do with ticket sales.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
EvenBob
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November 20th, 2010 at 9:15:31 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

So, what you're saying Bob is that when people do win - they get their false hopes paid with false money?.



So in your casino you have people who stay ahead of the casino and win more than they lose? No, you don't. You have people that come back again and again trying to get their money back, and when they 'win', it emboldens them to return next time. Its just like drug addiction, but its called 'chasing your losses.' Somebody else on here said a casino is like a bank that allows way more deposits than withdrawals, pays no interest, never lets you take out even close to what you put in, and is open 24/7. Nobody in their right mind would use a bank if it were really like that, buts its how casinos work.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 20th, 2010 at 9:25:03 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

No, what a casino sells is the false idea that you might get lucky and stay ahead of the casino.



Nothing "false" about that idea at all. It probably won't happen, but to quote you directly, the only thing being sold is the possibility that it "MIGHT" happen.

That it is not as likely as it would need to be to make winning as likely as losing is the source of the casino's profit. Everyone understands that.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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November 20th, 2010 at 9:30:33 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Nothing "false" about that idea at all. It probably won't happen



Probably? Ever see that commercial on TV for potential inventors? They list a few people who have made a bundle on their inventions, then tell you that most inventions are failures and the inventor often ends up losing money. Ever hear a disclaimer like that on a casino commercial? You never will.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 20th, 2010 at 9:34:27 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Probably? Ever see that commercial on TV for potential inventors? They list a few people who have made a bundle on their inventions, then tell you that most inventions are failures and the inventor often ends up losing money. Ever hear a disclaimer like that on a casino commercial? You never will.



The reason there is no such disclaimer is that the casino doesn't claim that you will win.

And "probably" simply means that a given outcome is more likely than another, but that both outcomes are possible. Or are you saying that no one ever wins in a casino?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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November 20th, 2010 at 10:05:59 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

The reason there is no such disclaimer is that the casino doesn't claim that you will win.



EXACTLY! They imply the hell out it by showing ecstatic people holding huge amounts of cash, though. Especially on the billboards that are on the highway leading to most casinos. No losers allowed, just beautiful orgasmic winners.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 20th, 2010 at 10:10:47 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

EXACTLY! They imply the hell out it by showing ecstatic people holding huge amounts of cash, though. Especially on the billboards that are on the highway leading to most casinos. No losers allowed, just beautiful orgasmic winners.



Yes. And implications don't require disclaimers. Especially when those implications aren't untrue--there ARE, in fact, "ecstatic people holding huge amounts of cash" every day. If you think that such a thing might happen to you--rightly or wrongly--that's YOUR responsibility.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Paigowdan
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November 20th, 2010 at 10:37:10 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

So in your casino you have people who stay ahead of the casino and win more than they lose? No, you don't. You have people that come back again and again trying to get their money back, and when they 'win', it emboldens them to return next time. Its just like drug addiction, but its called 'chasing your losses.' Somebody else on here said a casino is like a bank that allows way more deposits than withdrawals, pays no interest, never lets you take out even close to what you put in, and is open 24/7. Nobody in their right mind would use a bank if it were really like that, buts its how casinos work.



Yes, we actually do. So you see Bob, as hard as this is for you to believe, - some people are not losers.
1. Some people are ahead, with net winnings. You ain't one of them, otherwise you wouldn't be singing the blues. (you see, they're called "winners")
2. some people are even or down slightly, but have good times here, and consider it a good entertainment value, (called players or customers) - and
3. some people are just freakin' LOSERS, who lose their asses, (massive sour grapes) and then jump onto gambling forums where they bitch and moan about what no good lying, cheating sacks of stinking shit gaming industry employees are, and what B.S. the gaming industry is (at a gaming industry forum - no less). This only announces their loser-hood, really.

I was once accused on spending my breaks wonder how to make players happy.
What I did on a recent break is pose the following question:

What do you call people who:
1. Go to the casinos and lose their asses;
2. Can't get over it,
3. Gotta vent about what losers they are and what cheats the gaming industry is filled with - at an industry forum, no less.

Hmmm...could it be...losers?

This thread has gone on long enough.
Make some bait and go fishing, try something new, because if you don't find satisfaction or legitimacy in casinos and gaming at this long point, you really should try something that is apparently more satisfying than spleen venting.
Change your life and find a new forum, because there's something wrong with a never-emptying spleen.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 20th, 2010 at 10:51:30 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, we actually do. Some people are ahead, with net winnings.



And you would know this how, exactly? The casino didn't tell you & the customer sure as heck doesn't brag that he wins more than he loses. How is that these people beat negative expectation games on a regular basis when its mathematically impossible without cheating?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 20th, 2010 at 11:31:19 PM permalink
Every player that has a casino card account is tracked for average play, buy-in amounts (or coin-in) and loses; all info. This is not classified information for the player it applies to, but is undisclosable to any other person, except for gov't or legal needs.

Indeed, we can request these reports on us from casino operators for our IRS filing needs, etc.

Some people are:
1. winners who are ahead, (even though you do not or cannot believe this)
2. some are losers who are behind, (this you believe for everyone, although it only applies only to some casino players, and they know who they are), and
3. some break even, or are at a small loss, but feel that they recieved greater value in entertainment for an overall positive experience of casinos.

If you cannot believe that this is true, then you are probably in catagory #2, above. Negative expectation is that on the whole, the casinos make money. Again, not everyone is a loser. I'm up about $3,000 for the year because I hit a mini-Royal progressive at Sunset Station, and I spent the money on new home furnishings (actually, my wife did.) On excess winnings above a certain amount, I have to file a W-2G on gambling wins as taxable income. (Winners are familiar with this.)

As for these reports, Bob, I'm surprised you didn't know this. You said you've been a casino afficianado since 1975.

Sorry I was so blunt in a previous post, but really, if casino play isn't working out, take a break from it for a while.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 20th, 2010 at 11:41:29 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


some are 1. winners who are ahead
2. some are losers who are behind
3. some break even, or are at a small loss



This means nothing without details. How many beat the casino, how many are ahead? How many are losers who never catch up? How many break even? The word 'some' is meaningless, what are the hard facts. Lets see the percentages.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 12:00:52 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

And you would know this how, exactly? The casino didn't tell you & the customer sure as heck doesn't brag that he wins more than he loses. How is that these people beat negative expectation games on a regular basis when its mathematically impossible without cheating?



Anyone who hits a progressive slot jackpot or an eight-spot or better keno ticket will very likely be ahead for the rest of their lives. And slots and keno are negative expectation games.

There will also be a certain percentage of people who play -EV games, but are nonetheless ahead. This is a mathematical certainty, that SOME players will produce a result better than expectation, i.e., winning--and yes, on a regular basis. This occurs for the exact same reason that the casino sometimes loses.

And please, don't make the argument that Paigowdan doesn't have a videotape or sworn affidavits or something like that, so that proves that nobody wins, neener neener neener. How does Paigowdan "know" that some people are ahead? Common sense, and a knowledge of mathematics (which says that results are distributed over the entire width of the bell curve).

What Paigowdan said was that "some people are ahead". You are wrongly equating that with "beat negative expectation games". It is perfectly possible to be ahead; is is impossible to beat such games, "beat" meaning, "establish and implement a long-term, reliable winning strategy".
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Paigowdan
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November 21st, 2010 at 12:01:42 AM permalink
Quote: Evenbob

This means nothing without details



Go call Steve Wynn, and see if he tells ya.

No, Bob, it means fully enough - as there are more than enough players to keep casinos open.

Actually, you can get this info online. The Missouri Gaming commission posts all casino operational finances and win/loss in spreadsheets for EACH casino - and EACH table game type and brand, slot (1c, 5c...to $100+).

Table games on average keep 21% of buy-ins (called "Table Hold"), with 79% going back out to winners who leave with it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
JerryLogan
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November 21st, 2010 at 3:31:17 AM permalink
Ever notice how people who just aren't that sure of themselves when they present a position, go on to make long and rambling reply-posts with multiple paragraphs as they try so desperately to get their non-existent point across?

The logic-based reader here would very easily deduce that Bob is getting the best of the people who believe casinos are such nice entities who are only there for dreams, fastasies, and entertainment, and for all their employees to be tipped non-stop because of it.
AZDuffman
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November 21st, 2010 at 5:58:37 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

In Sears, you make a purchase, leave, and that's it. There's no massive manipulation effort to prey on your weakness to get you to stay and buy more stuff.



What? No manipulation to get you to buy more stuff? Did you ever take a marketiing or home ec courst and learn about merchandising? Have you ever been into a store and looked around?

I'm going to skip Sears and use an example of a grocery store since I used to work at one and, well, Sears itself is not the world's best merchandiser anymore.

Go intop a grocery store for an item. You need to buy hamburger meat? You are forced to walk past the buns. Need milk? Most often it is placed in the back so you have to pass dozens of things. Bakery items are right out in the middle of the isles on nice tables while you need to search for tha can of peas. I could go on and on but safe to say in a retail store EVERYTHING is manipulation to prey on your weakness and get you to stay and buy more stuff.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
boymimbo
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:08:39 AM permalink
CASINOS are indeed out to take your money and hope that you drop every dime there. But to accomplish that, you need to have a good experience there. You need to be entertained. Jerry, in your case, you need a good pay table on the VP machine and free drinks while at the bar -- otherwise you walk. I need a good craps table with good dealers and people to play with to be entertained. My mother needs her keno machine that pays out once in a while to be entertained. My wife needs a decent jackpot on the Caribbean Stud table to be entertained. Some people need to be able to smoke and gamble at the same time to be entertained. For the gamblers who are not addicts, it's about being entertained.

For the casino, the only way for its "customer base" to grow is to provide the best experience possible and be competitive with its neighbors. It wants you to come back, to spend every dime of your paycheck, at the casino, not just to blow one paycheck and have you go to another casino to spend your next one. The casino even wants you to take money home one trip so you can increase your bankroll and make you believe that you have hope for the next time. The casino wants you to become addicted so much that you spend every last legal cent that you own but not so much of an addict that they can be held legally liable.

So, for me, I would think that the customer base is what's important to the casino. Getting the seats filled is important and let the house advantage take care of itself. Surveillance is there to make sure everything is working according to the rules. The only way to fill the seats and make the most money is to offer an entertainment experience and a payout regime to allow people to leave as winners. Since casinos are government licensed everywhere to protect the consumer (and to ensure that they continue to get their slice of the pie), they have to operate within certain limits and regulations that prevent things like 90 percent house advantages on a slot machine (or even 20), or deal with a full deck of cards (unless advertised differently).
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
AZDuffman
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:13:24 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Yeah, I know, people are buying tickets to support a state's education program or something else. Well, it's as good a reason as any, but probably doesn't have a lot to do with ticket sales.



Lotteries take in so much cash for three reasons IMHO:

1. Tickets are cheap at a $1 min bet in most cases. Heck, as a kid I remember they had a $.50 bet here in PA and I remember a guy asking to bet $.05 on a number to the cashier. When told the minimum I forget if he played or not, but said out loud that "on the street they would even let you bet $.01" (at least at on time.)

2. The potential payout is huge. Any self-respecting "lotto" (not simply daily number) game starte north of $1MM these days. Excepting progresives no casino game comes close to that payout.

3. You can buy tickets almost anywhere.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
benbakdoff
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November 21st, 2010 at 8:07:37 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

No, what a casino sells is the false idea that you might get lucky and stay ahead of the casino. They sell this false hope on every billboard and in every commercial on TV and radio. People may say they know they can't get ahead and stay ahead, but what they really believe is they can at least win back all the money they've lost over the years. All they need is that one lucky streak.....



If they do get that lucky streak , they tell anyone within earshot that they're now playing with the house's money and the house wholeheartedly agrees.

What could go wrong there?
Mosca
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November 21st, 2010 at 8:30:02 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

No, what a casino sells is the false idea that you might get lucky and stay ahead of the casino. They sell this false hope on every billboard and in every commercial on TV and radio. People may say they know they can't get ahead and stay ahead, but what they really believe is they can at least win back all the money they've lost over the years. All they need is that one lucky streak.....



No, I think you have this wrong, at least for me.

For me, it boils down to simplicity. I like going to the casino and playing more than I like having the money. Otherwise I wouldn't do it. If it were all about the money, I'd get a second job and be guaranteed a return on my time. I assume every time I go in the casino door that I will lose what I brought to lose. Sometimes I lose it all, sometimes I lose some of it, sometimes I win a little, sometimes I win a lot. Whatever, I like playing more than I like having that money.

Frankly, everything else, all the philosophy and hand wringing and insight, is bullshit. If I didn't like it I wouldn't do it.
A falling knife has no handle.
Paigowdan
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November 21st, 2010 at 9:26:58 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Ever notice how people who just aren't that sure of themselves when they present a position, go on to make long and rambling reply-posts with multiple paragraphs as they try so desperately to get their non-existent point across?


This is a cop-out red herring use claim when you're on the ropes. Some refutations were both long AND accurate against you. And like this doesn't apply to you, but only to those you disagree with.

Quote: JerryLogan

The logic-based reader here would very easily deduce that Bob is getting the best of the people who believe casinos are such nice entities who are only there for dreams, fastasies, and entertainment, and for all their employees to be tipped non-stop because of it.


Bob was falsified time and time again, asking for "details" that are already posted online by gaming commissions, and refuted in arguments.

The simple fact of the matter is:
1. There are winners who have a profit. Non-complainer and non-conspiracy group #1. Winners exists, buy you simply cannot believe this or wrap your head around it because you're so ass-deep in your losers' penetentiary of sour grapes, you can't see the ground level from where you are.
2. There are winners who break even, or are happy with the expense at a loss, as they feel casinos provide them with a worthwhile entertainment value, regardless of whether you can see or believe this, as well as your sour-grapes complaining about how evil it is. Non-complainer/non-conspiracy group #2.
and...
3. Then there are the LOSERS who just lose money, keep going back for more punishment, and bitch and moan to everyone about what a horrible conspiracy the gaming industry is, and what worthless sacks o' crap industry employees MUST be, just for working in this industry. This group of losers relentlessy claim that they are the ONLY group of gamblers that can possibly exist, - and demand that all others see all gamblers and industry employees as fellow losers in a lost and malicious cause.

And the more these losers bitch and moan and accuse the industry, the more that many people feel they are simply recieving the punishment they deserve, going through a three-way cycle from which they cannot seem to escape:
1. Lose their asses...AGAIN;
2. Bitch and moan and accuse (relentlessly spleen-vent their sour grapes to those who are not losers) - particularly at a gaming industry board;
3. repeat the process ad-infinitum instead of getting off the train: continue to lose more and bitch more, lose more and bitch, lose more and bitch, - never being free. And displaying this "interesting-to-watch" train-wreck with plenty o' bile.

What I don't understand, if casino play clearly isn't working out for you guys (obviously it isn't), then instead of losing more and bitching about it more, why don't you guys find an outlet where you are winners of sorts, and tell stories of your success: fishing, bowling, stamp collecting, chess and bridge, competitive auto repair, you name it. There's GOTTA be something you can do as winners, because surviving casino play without psychic agony (and spreading the woes) is something you guys can't seem to carry off.

Not that we dislike arguing with losers. We like the 8 by 10 color glossies of your casino sour-grapes train-wrecks, we cannot seem to turn away from the fiascos that you also cannot turn away from.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same failing behavior over and over again, and crying about it in an accusatory fashion to others in befuddlement, while you can't get off the train.

If casino play ain't working for you, and you need Gamblers Anonymous, then make a freakin' meeting instead of complaining how miserable it is.
But bitching and moaning here about gaming is like being prohibitionists at a wine-tasting event.
Nobody ever held a gun to your head to buy in at a Baccarat table, and we won't believe your claims that it works this way.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 21st, 2010 at 4:00:52 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


1. There are winners who have a profit. .



But you have no idea how to prove it, its just an assumption on your part, therefore its meaningless. You think that somewhere out there somebody has beaten a negative expectation game without cheating, so you state it as a fact. When the truth is, its been proven mathematically a million times that its impossible to consistently win at any casino game where you have an outcome thats ultimately negative.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 4:03:04 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Ever notice how people who just aren't that sure of themselves when they present a position, go on to make long and rambling reply-posts with multiple paragraphs as they try so desperately to get their non-existent point across?

The logic-based reader here would very easily deduce that Bob is getting the best of the people who believe casinos are such nice entities who are only there for dreams, fastasies, and entertainment, and for all their employees to be tipped non-stop because of it.



Hee hee. Bob's getting beaten like the 1962 Mets, actually.

And there is no hyphen in "nonexistent". Neither is there one in "nonstop". Please, Jerry, take some remedial English classes while you still can.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 4:06:06 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

But you have no idea how to prove it, its just an assumption on your part, therefore its meaningless. You think that somewhere out there somebody has beaten a negative expectation game without cheating, so you state it as a fact. When the truth is, its been proven mathematically a million times that its impossible to consistently win at any casino game where you have an outcome thats ultimately negative.



Bob, it's so obvious that SOME persons are ahead playing such games, that you make yourself seem pretty silly when you say otherwise. And just because paigowdan doesn't care to "PROOOOOOOOOOVE" the obvious, doesn't mean the obvious isn't true, or is "meaningless".

To give you a pretty obvious example, everyone who has hit Megabucks has indeed beaten the casino. Presumably those winners did not cheat.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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November 21st, 2010 at 4:14:04 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321



To give you a pretty obvious example, everyone who has hit Megabucks has indeed beaten the casino. Presumably those winners did not cheat.



How is that an example of consistently beating a negative expectation game? The key word here is 'consistent', Brainiac. You go on a regular basis, play, and stay ahead of the casino. In your world people do this without cheating? You must live in Superman's Bizzaro world, where everything is the opposite of how it is here.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 4:20:58 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

How is that an example of consistently beating a negative expectation game? The key word here is 'consistent', Brainiac. You go on a regular basis, play, and stay ahead of the casino. In your world people do this without cheating? You must live in Superman's Bizzaro world, where everything is the opposite of how it is here.



This is the post by paigowdan that you were attempting to refute:

1. There are winners who have a profit. .

I never said, and Dan never said, that such players were "winning consistently", only that they were ahead.

It is the mark of a very stupid person to criticize someone for saying something that they did not actually say.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:06:42 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I never said, and Dan never said, that such players were "winning consistently",.



So I'm correct, then. Nobody is ahead of the casino who plays on a regular basis, who cares about a lightening strike slot win, it means nothing. A lottery winner hasn't 'beaten' the lottery, he can't do it again next week. If thats your argument, that a few people are ahead because of a big slot win, I feel like I've been arguing with 6th graders. Gimmee a break...
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:13:43 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

So I'm correct, then. Nobody is ahead of the casino who plays on a regular basis, who cares about a lightening strike slot win, it means nothing. A lottery winner hasn't 'beaten' the lottery, he can't do it again next week. If thats your argument, that a few people are ahead because of a big slot win, I feel like I've been arguing with 6th graders. Gimmee a break...



Nope, incorrect. There are SOME people who are ahead even though they play a negative expectation game continually. The big slot win example was merely intended to refute your statement that no one who plays a negative expectation game could possibly be ahead.

There's a difference between "beating" the game and being ahead. No one ever said that any person could "beat" a negative expectation game, using that standard. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WERE ARGUING AGAINST--you said that no one could possibly be ahead. Different concept, Bob.

In point of fact, there are always going to be SOME people who are ahead playing negative EV games. That's just simple mathematics--there is no CERTAINTY of winning or losing. Yes, there won't be very MANY people who are consistent winners over time, but there will be SOME. That's what you don't seem to understand. Some people just get lucky.

And the reason why you feel that you've been arguing with 6th graders is that you're using logic that would shame a 4th grader.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:16:35 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Nope, incorrect. There are SOME people who are ahead even though they play a negative expectation game continually. .



Who are they? What games are they beating besides BJ, which is hard as hell to stay ahead of even with card counting and the rest of their BS. How many are there? You have no idea, its just idle speculation. You have no facts whatsoever.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:29:20 PM permalink
No, Bob, you're incorrect, and you just don't get it. Slow as all hell.

Look: A negative exectation game means that casinos are ahead on the whole, NOT that absolutely everyone lost, as you mistakenly believe.
It means that:
a) some won,
b) some broke even,
c) some were losers who sang the blues,
and yes, somewhat more lost than won.
THAT's what it means. If you are in CATAGORY C, (loser) then you'll also believe that EVERYONE else a fellow loser, bitching and moaning about what a horrible industry it is filled with horrible people, yada, yada, yada - and it would be next to impossible to convince you otherwise, - not that this matters.

It does NOT mean:
a) nobody at all won;
b) nobody at all broke even;
c) AND EVERYBODY lost.
This is what you believe, again because you're probably in the c) catagory.

I just told you in earlier posts that most of our players break even or lose a little, and find the entertainment value worth it to a greater degree, and that I am ahead a few thousand for the year. This is real. And this you don't believe - refuse to believe.

You want affidavits, proof, legal statements, etc. like you'd be given the consideration instead of being told "believe whatever the hell you want, who cares!"

No, you don't need this proof or deserve this proof. The proof is still all over the place: online statements on the Internet from gaming authorities and jurisdictions, the fact that casinos are open and stay open (they would NOT if everyone lost as you say), and what have you. Refusing THIS is denial.

Look at the facts (online gaming reports, winning players, W2-G's being filed, open casinos) and you had the proof you need if you could just finally accept it.

If you happen to mistakenly believe that absolutely everyone is a loser because you are, then go on continuing to believe it; casinos won't close, with or without what you happen to believe.
The proof is with the financiala of casinos posted online by gaming authorities who regulate them, by the statement of people who play and deal, and it's more than proof enough.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:32:01 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Who are they? What games are they beating besides BJ, which is hard as hell to stay ahead of even with card counting and the rest of their BS. How many are there? You have no idea, its just idle speculation. You have no facts whatsoever.



I don't need to know their names, Bob. This is what you don't understand: such people MUST exist. It's true that I have no idea exactly how MANY. But that there are such persons is a mathematical certainty. Those are the facts that I have. (And they are facts whether or not either you or I "have" them.)

Ask the Wizard if you don't believe me. You obviously keep saying that winning is impossible because YOU haven't won. Inflating one's own personal experience to include the entire world is an error.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
EvenBob
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:35:09 PM permalink
It means that:
a) some won,
b) some broke even,
c) some were losers>>

Again, where are the facts? Where are the percentages to back this up? Some people love blood sausage, some people don't. A meaningless statement, devoid of facts, just like yours.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:36:53 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I don't need to know their names, Bob. This is what you don't understand: such people MUST exist. It's true that I have no idea exactly how MANY.



Oh, its a religious thing, its a belief thing, with no basis in anything but speculation. Just as I thought...
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 6:39:34 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Oh, its a religious thing, its a belief thing, with no basis in anything but speculation. Just as I thought...



It's one thing to be immune to logic.

It's another thing to be passionate and proud about being immune to logic.

It's still another thing to be a mindless jerk about being immune to logic.

Believe what you want to, Bob. All atheists are unhappy. No one ever wins. The casino and its employees are out to get you. Your world is such a terrible place!
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
thecesspit
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November 21st, 2010 at 11:43:07 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

It means that:
a) some won,
b) some broke even,
c) some were losers>>

Again, where are the facts? Where are the percentages to back this up? Some people love blood sausage, some people don't. A meaningless statement, devoid of facts, just like yours.



My last trip I won $200 at the gold coast, lost $20 at Bills, and around $275 at the Orleans. I might be able to get affidavits on that as well.

That's a one in each of the columns. Makes none of them zero. Job done.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mkl654321
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November 21st, 2010 at 11:48:52 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

My last trip I won $200 at the gold coast, lost $20 at Bills, and around $275 at the Orleans. I might be able to get affidavits on that as well.

That's a one in each of the columns. Makes none of them zero. Job done.



No, no, no. Nobody ever wins. You must be lying. Anyway, why would all those hateful casino employees let you win?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Paigowdan
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November 22nd, 2010 at 1:57:21 AM permalink
Bob,
These are the facts:
a) Some win
b) some break even and have a good time; and
c) some are such sore freakin' losers that they refuse to believe that anyone can have a winning streak, - no less have a good time at a casino, because they're so chagrined at being losers that they cannot stand for anyone else to either win, or have a good time, - so refuse to believe it possible, simply as a weak defense mechanism - as a response to their own losing plight.
These are the facts. Sad but true for some.

And I told you where the "report-based" facts that substantiate it are located, because you apparently need to see black-and-white reports for it to get to your brain.

EVERY gaming commission and gaming jurisdiction tracks this data and makes it available to the public.
The states of New Jersey, Missorri, etc. Go google it.

Better yet, if you really can't come to terms with wins and loses, then go attend a Gamblers' Anonymous meeting.

Because for some, that is the only way that they will win.

Edit: Actually, I AM quite serious about this:
Gambling IS supposed to be a fun, enjoyable pasttime or recreation where gambling is fun and gaming workers are NOT some sort of nefarious enemy or bloodsuckers, but service providers for your fun or rewarding pasttime.
Really now, if you:
a) have had really troublesome gambling loses that
b) have made you really down or miserable or paranoid or suspicious about gaming
c) where you still insist to be involved with it (playing, forums, etc), and
d) gambling is just not working out, and you hate it and its providers,
then yes, have coffee with someone from G.A.

I will say this, and it is indeed appropriate to say it in such circumstances.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
JerryLogan
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November 22nd, 2010 at 4:05:49 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

This is a cop-out red herring use claim when you're on the ropes. Some refutations were both long AND accurate against you. And like this doesn't apply to you, but only to those you disagree with.


Bob was falsified time and time again, asking for "details" that are already posted online by gaming commissions, and refuted in arguments.

The simple fact of the matter is:
1. There are winners who have a profit. Non-complainer and non-conspiracy group #1. Winners exists, buy you simply cannot believe this or wrap your head around it because you're so ass-deep in your losers' penetentiary of sour grapes, you can't see the ground level from where you are.
2. There are winners who break even, or are happy with the expense at a loss, as they feel casinos provide them with a worthwhile entertainment value, regardless of whether you can see or believe this, as well as your sour-grapes complaining about how evil it is. Non-complainer/non-conspiracy group #2.
and...
3. Then there are the LOSERS who just lose money, keep going back for more punishment, and bitch and moan to everyone about what a horrible conspiracy the gaming industry is, and what worthless sacks o' crap industry employees MUST be, just for working in this industry. This group of losers relentlessy claim that they are the ONLY group of gamblers that can possibly exist, - and demand that all others see all gamblers and industry employees as fellow losers in a lost and malicious cause.

And the more these losers bitch and moan and accuse the industry, the more that many people feel they are simply recieving the punishment they deserve, going through a three-way cycle from which they cannot seem to escape:
1. Lose their asses...AGAIN;
2. Bitch and moan and accuse (relentlessly spleen-vent their sour grapes to those who are not losers) - particularly at a gaming industry board;
3. repeat the process ad-infinitum instead of getting off the train: continue to lose more and bitch more, lose more and bitch, lose more and bitch, - never being free. And displaying this "interesting-to-watch" train-wreck with plenty o' bile.

What I don't understand, if casino play clearly isn't working out for you guys (obviously it isn't), then instead of losing more and bitching about it more, why don't you guys find an outlet where you are winners of sorts, and tell stories of your success: fishing, bowling, stamp collecting, chess and bridge, competitive auto repair, you name it. There's GOTTA be something you can do as winners, because surviving casino play without psychic agony (and spreading the woes) is something you guys can't seem to carry off.

Not that we dislike arguing with losers. We like the 8 by 10 color glossies of your casino sour-grapes train-wrecks, we cannot seem to turn away from the fiascos that you also cannot turn away from.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same failing behavior over and over again, and crying about it in an accusatory fashion to others in befuddlement, while you can't get off the train.

If casino play ain't working for you, and you need Gamblers Anonymous, then make a freakin' meeting instead of complaining how miserable it is.
But bitching and moaning here about gaming is like being prohibitionists at a wine-tasting event.
Nobody ever held a gun to your head to buy in at a Baccarat table, and we won't believe your claims that it works this way.



My guess is you tossed in that mumble about "red-herring" AFTER you found that you once just couldn't help yourself by putting up a meandering ramble to try so hard to get whatever point you were trying to make, across.

Where did you read that casino play isn't working out for "you guys"? That assumption alone forced you into writing a confused press release on the issue. I go to casinos for overall enjoyment and as I said, that goal has always been reached. The machines haven't been overly kind, but the entertainment venues within have succeeded in spades. I always go with my wife which tells you right there I'm not some sicko who goes only to gamble. Oh, and did you read about my $10,000 bet yesterday??

What you're into is defending casinos as fantastic places, and only the gambling part of them. Those, in fact, are the worst part of the experience for most visitors. I don't even LIKE being around that many low lifes and low class employees who deal and run the floors, but I put up with it for the greater good, and the fact that the stupid machines have me hooked.

Try again.
mkl654321
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November 22nd, 2010 at 12:26:10 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

My guess is you tossed in that mumble about "red-herring" AFTER you found that you once just couldn't help yourself by putting up a meandering ramble to try so hard to get whatever point you were trying to make, across.



Actually, paigowdan's incisive, direct, and cogent post skewered Jerry and Jerry-thinking like a butterfly on a pin.

Blaming casino employees for your losing addiction, and bleating about it on an internet forum, is like a drunk and dying alcoholic in the gutter screaming curses at the guy who works behind the counter at a liquor store.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
MathExtremist
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November 23rd, 2010 at 10:25:37 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

But you have no idea how to prove it, its just an assumption on your part, therefore its meaningless. You think that somewhere out there somebody has beaten a negative expectation game without cheating, so you state it as a fact. When the truth is, its been proven mathematically a million times that its impossible to consistently win at any casino game where you have an outcome thats ultimately negative.



No, that's just wrong. It's very possible to win. It's just impossible to *expect* to win without cheating in a -EV game. I've been playing craps (infrequently) for over a decade, and I'm definitely up lifetime, probably around $3000. I won $250 in Vegas last week. I've been lucky - I admit that - but that doesn't change the fact that I've still won overall.

There is a large difference between possible outcomes and average or expected outcomes. I might have a very large disadvantage if a casino paid even-money on rolling a six with one die, but it's still possible for me to roll a million sixes in a row.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
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November 23rd, 2010 at 11:16:01 AM permalink
Quote: an obvious problem gambler

I don't even LIKE being around that many low lifes and low class employees who deal and run the floors, but I put up with it for the greater good, and the fact that the stupid machines have me hooked.



No - it's very clear!

If gambling is so truly miserable for some people that they have to go onto a gaming industry or gambling board -

- just to rag on the casinos and its industry workers while addicted ("hooked") on one-armed bandits,

- then they would be better off addressing the issues that are making them (and everyone else!) miserable.

I am serious, such people would find great help and a happier new life there at G.A....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
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