Casino Employees - Not The Bad Guy

Quote: JerryLogan

When a host invites me in for a few days of RFB etc., they want to see me lose. They track my play, and every now and then come out to make small talk because they can see what machine I'm playing at any time they like. If I'm losing they offer phoney encouragement; if I'm winning they turn into obvious liars by saying how happy they are for me today.

If so, they are no hosts at all!

If you're winning, they should be authentically happy, because you're happy, and because it's no money out of their pockets, not a cent, unless it's a five-diamond joint like Caesars. (The slot manager or table games shift manager, maybe them, but it balances out for them, too.) They simply have no reason to be like that, it avails them nothing.
There are greasebags in this industry, but I do NOT want you to feel or believe that all of us are like that, which you seem sadly convinced of.

I think of the movie Owning Mahoney (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0285861/ ) where Phillip Seymore Hoffman plays a compulsive gambler, a banker and embezzler who cleaned his bank dry of cash, and John Hurt, a greasy (gah-reazzy!) casino host who knows the deal but is always smiling in his face as a patronizing dirt-bag to suck him bone dry of still more capital before he gets caught and ends up in the klink.

I also think of the movie Thank You for Smoking, where Aaron Eckhart plays a smarmy tobacco industry lobbyist.

These are Hollywood creations, (and great entertainment - that word again!) - and while people may have these perceptions or experiences, the gaming industry is also filled with real people who are real decent.

Quote: Wizard

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that hosts are mostly compensated by the theoretical loss of their players. So they can genuinely wish their players good luck, because it costs them nothing if they win, and the player will be more likely to play longer and return.

I've heard that too, but I also heard they get a % of the actual loss as a bonus. That is from a Wynn host. That same host told me of other hosts at his and other properties that have been let go because they brought in players who win too often.

Quote: Wizard

it is my understanding that hosts are mostly compensated by the theoretical loss of their players. ... and the player will be more likely to play longer and return.

The casino books a loss as a loan to the gambler. The hosts know and the casino manager knows that the "loan" can be repaid at any time and in any casino. The host's sole concern is that the player be happy and return to that casino for more gambling. If he has won money this particular trip, the casino knows they will see their money again. So the host and the dealer might as well be happy rather than just pretend to be happy. The dealer probably started out at a break-in joint seeing the same degenerate fleas over and over again bringing a paltry paycheck to the cage. The dealer is probably happy to see a more successful player bring a larger sum to the table. The dealer knows that flea buying in for two hundred or whale buying in for two hundred thousand are each playing against the same house edge and no matter what the results are this trip, each will be back again. The flea will occasionally buy in with his prior winnings and the whale will occasionally buy in with his prior winnings. If they had absolutely no winning sessions they would be fools to ever come back. Dealers and hosts know this. Benny Binion knew it when he said "book it" to a quarter million dollar pass line bet. That is why he was able to do it without hesitation. The money will definitely come back and hundreds of people will hear of the incident and gamble there too.

Quote: JerryLogan

I've heard that too, but I also heard they get a % of the actual loss as a bonus. That is from a Wynn host. That same host told me of other hosts at his and other properties that have been let go because they brought in players who win too often.

That may be true, but my host at the Wynn takes much better care of me than any other host I have dealt with. It may be a personal thing with this fellow, and another host at this place could be better or worse than elsewhere.

If win or loss didn't mean anything to a host, then they wouldn't track it. I've never had a host discuss theo unless I asked, the number they seem to focus on is win or loss.

Well, as I said earlier, I'm up about $7000 at Wynn overall, I played pretty heavily, but I stopped going the first time they refused me a comp beer at a bar where I was playing $50/hand. I've never heard a peep from them since. Could be because I made such a stink about that stupid cheapass policy of theirs. Either way they miss me more than I miss them.

Quote: JerryLogan

All I can deduce is that you are in denial Dan.

Why is everyone that disagrees with Jerry "in denial", or suffers from some other character or cognitive flaw? True, it might be all that he can deduce, but there are--brace yourself, everyone--concepts that are beyond the scope of Jerry's deductive abilities.

In any case, anyone who does NOT agree with the concept that the world is filled with nasty, evil, money-grubbing people who are out to get him, is probably much closer to the truth than someone who believes that that is so.

Quote: Paigowdan

I want you to consider each "casino" statement simply on a true or false basis, and see why casinos manage to exist, and are not horrible dens of inequity:.

Heh heh. What you really meant was "dens of iniquity", but I wonder if you were right anyway. Is Jerry claiming that casinos are dens of inequity? It seems like he's saying that they screw EVERYBODY over, without discriminating, so...maybe not.

Quote: Wizard

Just what are the casinos supposed to do that they aren't doing already to control compulsive gambling? In my opinion, the casinos care about problem gambling in the same way a vineyard owner cares about alcoholism. Both offer a product that is potentially addictive, but ultimately each individual has to be responsible for his own actions. There is not much the casino or vineyard can do about it.

A steak house doesn't hand out pamphlets on how to control cholesterol. Burger King doesn't make you consult with a dietitian before they sell you a Triple Whopper Meal. The guy filling your tank at a gas station doesn't lecture you on driver safety as he does it.

In other words, we're all adults here. Just because a pleasurable and entertaining activity can be turned into an addictive and destructive one doesn't mean that such an outcome is the fault, or the responsibility, of the company/person offering that activity. Virtually anything, including giving blood to the Red Cross, can be done to self-destructive excess.

My approach to gambling has been different than most peoples'; I get a lot of fun out of it, and always have, but at some point, it was starting to cost me too much money. So I quit for several years, but then I started reading some books, and learning more and more, and pretty soon discovered that I could have my cake and eat it too, with advantage play. But does that mean that the person who just trucks on down to the casino and sticks a $100 bill into the nickel Monopoly machine and plays until it's gone is being somehow "had"? Of course not--he is purchasing entertainment, and it is FOR HIM ALONE TO DECIDE whether his money was well-spent.

Quote: Wizard

Just what are the casinos supposed to do that they aren't doing already to control compulsive gambling? In my opinion, the casinos care about problem gambling in the same way a vineyard owner cares about alcoholism. Both offer a product that is potentially addictive, but ultimately each individual has to be responsible for his own actions. There is not much the casino or vineyard can do about it.

My opinion is casinos do absolutely nothing to help control problem gambling. Those pamphlets are nothing but using due lip service to appease the critics.

One thing a casino could do is remove every ATM from its floors. That would go a long way in showing due dilligence as it relates to problem gambling. Another is to monitor certain players and ask them to leave if they start to display problematic tendencies in much the same way a bar owner or bartender would escort a heavy drinker out and into a cab. Another is to eliminate casino credit, and only allow check cashing at the front hotel desk with a $250 limit IF the person has an open line of credit on one of his credit cards as security. But you'll never see any of it because losers are the lifeblood of casinos, profit margin is the only important goal of that business, and they want you to continue to get as much cash as possible from any means possible to keep gambling with. Rich or poor, they do not play favorites when it comes to trying to wipe people out.

BTW another gem of a PM just came in from MKL. What are the odds on his folding like an Oregon lawn chair again!!!

From: mkl654321
To: JerryLogan
Date Sent: November 19, 2010 12:53 pm
Just wanted you to know that I'll be letting others take over the task of pointing out what an idiot you are. I have better things to do with my time, but don't worry--there are plenty of others for you to antagonize. You'll be banned sooner or later.

And aside from being an idiot, you are a thouroughly nasty and contemptible person. But you already knew that.

Quote: JerryLogan

From: mkl654321
To: JerryLogan
Date Sent: November 19, 2010 12:53 pm
Just wanted you to know that I'll be letting others take over the task of pointing out what an idiot you are. I have better things to do with my time, but don't worry--there are plenty of others for you to antagonize. You'll be banned sooner or later.

And aside from being an idiot, you are a thouroughly nasty and contemptible person. But you already knew that.

This once again violates the rule, #4 I believe, against posting private communication.

Quote: mkl654321

This once again violates the rule, #4 I believe, against posting private communication.

I think it also violates your rule of "Please don't expose me for the hater that I really am".

I don't want to be banned but if I am, I'll move on. You see, if you have a family and a REAL JOB, that happens very easily. Especially around the holidays. Oops....I mentioned family. Didn't mean to give you that teary-eyed loner feeling....especially during the HOLIDAYS!

I get a kick out of this thread. I've been going to Vegas since 1975, when the influence of the 50's and 60's Mafia run Vegas was in the process of dying out. In those days there was no doubt they were there for one reason only, to take your money. They made no bones about it. Look at the way they treated Advantage Players, backrooming them and even putting some of them in the hospital. Buts its a 'new' Vegas now, its the feel-good Vegas. They want you to have a good time first and foremost, and if they get your money, thats great too.

I don't buy any of it for a minute. The old Vegas is still there, it just has a nice coat of whitewash on it. And look at all people they're fooling.

Greetings, Eliot Jacobson here, long time lurker. I saw Mike at G2E and said I would drop by and say hi on his board. I chose this thread because for me it is a key issue. I know people involved in all areas of gaming, and have friends in all areas. My humble opinion is that there are no blankets that cover large groups of people in this industry. Kind regards, and "hi!" Mike.

Quote: JerryLogan

The shows, restaurants, theaters etc. are there for our entertainment, but the casino is there FOR ONE REASON ONLY: to seperate us from as much of our money as possible, without regard.

Do you believe the Disney Corporation primarily cares about entertainment rather than making money then?

Quote: rxwine

Do you believe the Disney Corporation primarily cares about entertainment rather than making money then?

They care about the money. Thats the point, all casinos care about is the money, quit pretending they care about anything else. If they're worried about you having a good time, its only because they can't squeeze more money out of people who had a rotten time, they won't be back.

Then this applies to ALL for-profit entertainment venues: All THEY care about is the bottom line, too, - why should they - as for-profit entertainment companies - be any different.
Hollywood, Broadway, Restaurants, water parks...Disneyland. The New York Yankees, the Green Bay packers....

Quote: Paigowdan

Then this applies to ALL for-profit entertainment venues: All THEY care about is the bottom line, too, - why should they - as for-profit entertainment companies - be any different.
Hollywood, Broadway, Restaurants, water parks...Disneyland. The New York Yankees, the Green Bay packers....

Actually, if a company is any good, they are not focused solely on the bottom line of their current year financials. Check most corporations' mission statements and the curricula of the good business schools. Good companies recognize that they have obligations to a variety of stakeholders in their venture: shareholders, employees, customers, suppliers, society, and perhaps some others I have overlooked. If they focus exclusively on the financial statements (which are indeed very important) there will be hell to pay both at the annual meetings and in the press, when the environmentalists, social rights organizations, etc. roast the top management mercilessly.

Of course, there are companies focused only on the money. But I am talking about the good companies.

Quote: rxwine

Do you believe the Disney Corporation primarily cares about entertainment rather than making money then?

No, and neither do doctors about their patients by that measure.

Quote: Doc

Actually, if a company is any good, they are not focused solely on the bottom line of their current year financials. Check most corporations' mission statements and the curricula of the good business schools. Good companies recognize that they have obligations to a variety of stakeholders in their venture: shareholders, employees, customers, suppliers, society, and perhaps some others I have overlooked. If they focus exclusively on the financial statements (which are indeed very important) there will be hell to pay both at the annual meetings and in the press, when the environmentalists, social rights organizations, etc. roast the top management mercilessly.

Of course, there are companies focused only on the money. But I am talking about the good companies.

Casinos have been a dismal failure to their stockholders.

Quote: JerryLogan

No, and neither do doctors about their patients by that measure.

So, no one cares about any one? Jeez, I dunno about that one, Jerry. You might be assuming everyone is like you are. It's possible some of us are different.

Quote: Mosca

So, no one cares about any one? Jeez, I dunno about that one, Jerry. You might be assuming everyone is like you are. It's possible some of us are different.

See how long your caring doctor will see you if you stop paying him. Just last year my doctors office screwed up and only billed my insurance for half a physical. Of course when they re-billed, the insurance told them to take a leap. So they billed ME for their mistake and said until I pay it, I can no longer get medical service from their office. Soooo caring, it brought tears to my eyes.

Quote: EvenBob

See how long your caring doctor will see you if you stop paying him. Just last year my doctors office screwed up and only billed my insurance for half a physical. Of course when they re-billed, the insurance told them to take a leap. So they billed ME for their mistake and said until I pay it, I can no longer get medical service from their office. Soooo caring, it brought tears to my eyes.

So, because that happened to you, in your doctor's office, that means that it happens for the other 300,000,000 people in the US, and the other 4,000,000,000 people in the rest of the world, too?

I dunno. I think I'm going to not believe you, and your apocryphal evidence. Instead I think I'm going to rely on my experiences over the last 50+ years, that say different.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that my experience is, people tend to care about other caring people, and not care about uncaring people. That is what my experience has been. So, one person might get cared about, because that person is nice; and another person might get not cared about, because that person is uncaring. So two people can have the exact opposite experience, in the exact same place under the exact same conditions!

You reap what you sow, I'd say. Mosca out.

Quote: Mosca

So, because that happened to you, in your doctor's office,

Seriously, stop paying and see how long you keep being treated. I remember I was involved in an accident in the 90's and had to see a specialist. About halfway thru my treatment regimen, the insurance company stopped paying all of a sudden and all my future appointments were cancelled by the doctor and I never heard another word from him. I was left just dangling in the breeze, what the hell did he care.

One of my very first jobs decades ago was working for a collection agency. 80% of their work came from doctors who were trying to collect from deadbeat patients. On the list of creditors, doctors are always last to get paid.

Losing money is not fun. My vote goes to Jerry.

Quote: Doc

Actually, if a company is any good, they are not focused solely on the bottom line of their current year financials. Check most corporations' mission statements and the curricula of the good business schools. Good companies recognize that they have obligations to a variety of stakeholders in their venture: shareholders, employees, customers, suppliers, society, and perhaps some others I have overlooked.
Of course, there are companies focused only on the money. But I am talking about the good companies.

Actually, that is exactly my point: there are "good" casinos and "bad" casinos in terms of their customer service and treatment.

I'm on dinner break from dealing right now, and I gave up TWO royals in the past hour, which I haven't done that in 8 months. Fine.
Floorman said, "WFT, pay 'em, - good for them." I got a $25 tip each time, and said "thanks, I appreciate that," and meant that.

The table's down, the customers were saluted, and no one is hung out to dry. No blood.

Quote: EvenBob

Seriously, stop paying and see how long you keep being treated. I remember I was involved in an accident in the 90's and had to see a specialist. About halfway thru my treatment regimen, the insurance company stopped paying all of a sudden and all my future appointments were cancelled by the doctor and I never heard another word from him. I was left just dangling in the breeze, what the hell did he care.

I love the fact I don't have to stop paying to find out... because I never have to pay for my medical care in the first place.

Course I have around 8% higher chance of dying from some forms of terminal disease if that should happen to me.

Quote: thecesspit

I love the fact I don't have to stop paying to find out... because I never have to pay for my medical care in the first place.

Neither did I, it doesn't matter. If the doc stops getting paid, he loses interest in you almost immediately. I grew up thinking all doctors were like Milburn Stone on 'Gunsmoke'. Not even. I have a friend who has been in the taxi business for 30 years, as a driver and owner of a small company. Whenever he gets a doctor in the cab, he always asks them the same question: If you could do it all again, would you become a doctor. In the hundreds of times he's asked this, not one doc has ever said yes. They all say its too much stress, too much time in school, and not enough money.

Quote: Paigowdan

Actually, that is exactly my point: there are "good" casinos and "bad" casinos in terms of their customer service and treatment. ...

Yes. I intended for my post to be supportive of what you have been saying.

Quote: EvenBob

Neither did I, it doesn't matter. If the doc stops getting paid, he loses interest in you almost immediately.

You misunderstand... my insurer (BC government) does not stop paying ever... payment of doctors is never an issue, so it's not an experience I'll have here or in the UK.

Quote: thecesspit

You misunderstand... my insurer (BC government) does not stop paying ever...

They pay so well that all the best ones come here to practice. Just read an article that very subject, they're very upset that Obamacare might not be stopped in time.

Quote: Mosca

So, no one cares about any one? Jeez, I dunno about that one, Jerry. You might be assuming everyone is like you are. It's possible some of us are different.

My parents said it used to be different, that there was true concern by professionals for others and respect for their jobs and it was very easy to tell. Not so today. It's ALL about the money and everything's a business.

Quote: JerryLogan

My parents said it used to be different, that there was true concern by professionals for others and respect for their jobs and it was very easy to tell. Not so today. It's ALL about the money and everything's a business.

Let me take a moment to add to what I wrote: it doesn't bother me that some people see the world differently. Sometimes a ballbuster is exactly what is needed to move the world along. I have friends that are serious, serious assholes (not saying you are, I don't know you. I only know your postings on an internet forum); it doesn't matter to me, we're friends. I got one of them this shirt once:



The only thing that bothers me is that you assert that because that is the way you approach things, then that's the way it is for everyone. But if that were true, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. You gotta do what works for you, and I respect that. And I even understand that part of you being who you are makes you try to change me. But geez, lighten up sometimes.

I think this discussion is one of the most interesting I have seen so far and I do not want to be the one sitted comfortably pointing other people`s problems.
What I see here are things being taken to the personal side.
When Bob says he goes to casino since 1975 I cannot agree with his opinion. How come can someone atend a place for more than 35 years and still think that this place just wants to rip him off?
I do believe dan, mkl and croupier; because of my personal background. Even that I live in a totally different context (Brazil does not allow gambling), my dad is a frequent casino player in Argentina, Paraguay, Chile and Peru for more than 20 years and I kind of was raised in this gambling atmosphere.
We always gamble for fun and do not tend to blame the dealers for our losses. I admit that it is frustrating to play blackjack for 15 hands without getting payed, or even to lose frequently 19 vs. 20; but it is simply bad luck.
I usually have nice conversations with the dealers and all the casino crew. They are always polite to me and we do have a lot of fun talking.
The reason why I believe that casinos are not interested in anybody personally being ripped off is due to something that hapenned to me in a casino I go four times a year at Paraguay. I was playing blackjack at my regular buy in and being mashed. Then I bought in again and headed to baccarat, and because of bad luck in two hours I had no more chips. A third attempted also failed and at the fourth buy in the cashier gently told me: "Mr. Leibanti, don't you think that it is enough for tonight?". I must confess: that really made me surprise.

I think you need to follow the money to see what the motives are. On the casino floor, dealers rely heavily on tips for their extra income, and they get more tips when players win. 2/3rds of their shifts are about dealing with the people sitting in front of them. The only variable part of their income is due to the collective income of the tips. This gives dealers the opportunity to "opt out" and not perform well and still receive tips. Therefore, my experience and reason suggests that the dealers want the collective population of the gamblers to lose but want to see their gamblers WIN and have fun, because it makes for a better time for the dealers and they believe that their own tips will enhance the tips on their final pay checks.

When you get to the floor people such as people working in the pit, the cashiers, and other floor people who do not receive compensation based on the casino's income, I really think they couldn't care less about the players and are more likely worried about making it to the end of their shift. Of course, they want to provide a good service just like any other worker would and hopefully, their supervision can separate and reward the good workers from the bad.

Finally, when you get to the upper echelons on the casino where the workers may receive compensation based on income, they indeed do want players to lose.

That said, because most casinos have the same strict regulations and frameworks to follow, as well as a great deal of competition from other properties, they have to offer very similar games as neighboring properties. It stands to reason that the only way that a casino can make more money is to offer a better experience to the player. That's why the wizard's observations make sense.

Jerry, you could extend the model to your job. Your bonus is probably based on your company's total performance and the performance of the company in your area of responsibility. Your truckers however get paid on a per mile basis. Your company makes money based on the rates that are charged to your customers. The truckers are happy when they get to travel more miles, have reasonable day-to-day conditions compared to others in their industry, and for qualifying for and receiving any incentive bonuses that your company offers. The salespeople are happy when they get their commission checks. You're happy when your company performs well and you perform better than your targets.

Casinos are no different. Casino executive need profits from players to get their bonuses and to obtain more power. They've found that the best way to achieve this is to offer the best experience to the players so that they come back. Dealers need money from the tips that they receive and have found that the best way to make their money is to provide a good service to the players and hope that the players tip based on their experience. They know full well that they receive more tips when the player has money to tip and is enjoying themselves. That is accomplished when a player is winning and the dealers are pleasant.

Quote: aluisio

How come can someone attend a place for more than 35 years and still think that this place just wants to rip him off?

Which game in the casino has odds in favor of the player? Please point out a casino that does favor the player and I'll gamble there from now on.

Quote: boymimbo

Casinos are no different. Casino executive need profits from players to get their bonuses and to obtain more power. They've found that the best way to achieve this is to offer the best experience to the players so that they come back. Dealers need money from the tips that they receive and have found that the best way to make their money is to provide a good service to the players and hope that the players tip based on their experience. They know full well that they receive more tips when the player has money to tip and is enjoying themselves. That is accomplished when a player is winning and the dealers are pleasant.

What you wrote about my industry is correct. What you wrote about the casino industry is so far off base that Mickey Mantle couldn't have hit one that far.

My belief is that anyone who is of the mindset that the casinos are in it to offer "an entertainment experience" in order to build profits on such good-will and care for their customers is simply attempting to justify why they either go to casinos so often, gamble on line so much, think about doing that stuff, or spend so much time reading about it and posting about it on forums.

How hard is it to see that casinos only care about draining as many wallets as they can as often as they can? Their business is money. Sears sells stuff. If Sears sells a ton of stuff they make more profit, and in order to sell more stuff they have to entice their customer base with ads and sales. If casinos drain more wallets they make more profit. How? By having all kinds of reel-them-in promotions that many gamblers just can't say no to, and by doing all that they can to keep the player gambling even when he knows he should stop. That's what all those ATM's are for as well as the cashier services. It is as low an industry as there is for preying on customer weaknesses.

Quote: EvenBob

Which game in the casino has odds in favor of the player? Please point out a casino that does favor the player and I'll gamble there from now on.

This whole thing is getting old and, while I am not singling out this quote and EB for posting it, would most everyone here learn to have a conversation on an adult, intellectual level and not a middle-school level?

Any intelligent adult knows casinos as well as any business are started for *GASP* PROFIT! And unless you have a wealthy family member and you do it to pass the time, people take jobs for a paycheck. This is not in dispute by any rational person.

Now, this does not mean a dealer does not want a player to have a good time. This does not mean the casino do not see player enjoyment as their business. But an intelligent person does not need to have it told to them that both sides care about taking care of themselves first. Plenty of dealers want players to win. Do they want players to win to the point that the dealer gets fired and can't feed his family? Obviously not.

Those who can't see the obvious point sound like those ladies on "The View" who wanted Bill O to say, "not every muslim attacked us on 9-11" when he mentioned muslim hijackers. It just makes the person saying it look stupid since they are not discussing the real issue.

In the first post of this thread, Croupier said "Casino employees who hustle for tips do not deserve them." Finally, a dealer who actually gets it. Those words should be posted in every dealers locker room, restroom, break room, hallways and tattooed on their arms. I've never been a big tipper and I find myself tipping less and less because of hustling. When I do tip, it's because the dealers deserve it not because I've won. I could win every hand but if I've got a hustling dealer, they get nothing.

I have a couple of questions for Croupier, Dan, mkl or anyone else who wants to chime in. Since tips are pooled, do the dealers police each other regarding behavior toward the players and what are your thoughts on dealers being allowed to keep their own tips?

Quote: benbakdoff

I have a couple of questions for Croupier, Dan, mkl or anyone else who wants to chime in. Since tips are pooled, do the dealers police each other regarding behavior toward the players and what are your thoughts on dealers being allowed to keep their own tips?

I'd like to chime in on this. I am generally against pooling but see the point. Sometimes the needs of the business will punish the dealer tip-wise. Newer dealers will naturally get graveyard or days. But you can't have all newer dealers. Craps crews for one need an "anchor" dealer or two to help the new guys along. This can be a step towards dual rate, but a punishment at a go-for-your-own place. Graveyard can be feast-or-fammine. Learning more games coulod get a guy stuck on Let-it-Ride and lower tippers, even though he is once again learning more games to try to move up. And no matter what anyone says, having juice will still help you.

So when I take over the Wynn and rename it "Duffman Casino" (thought I am not doing an ad sitting on the roof) I would consider a "tip pool tax." 50% of daily tips you keep, 50% into a pool, paid on hours either day-for-day or week-for-week. Craps dealers would pool crew-for-crew for the individual part since you cannot tip an individual there and would cause a disaster if you tried.

Quote: AZDuffman

So when I take over the Wynn and rename it "Duffman Casino" (thought I am not doing an ad sitting on the roof)....

Chicken.


But I think your partial tip pooling idea is a logical / good compromise.

Quote: EvenBob

Which game in the casino has odds in favor of the player? Please point out a casino that does favor the player and I'll gamble there from now on.

Oh they all have the odds in their favor. You know that. Having the odds in their favor does not mean they want to rip you off. Or that they want you to lose. They know what the odds are. You know what the odds are. They know you walked in and sat down voluntarily. The price of admission to the casino is the "beak wetting" they take on each of your bets. That doesn't mean they want to rip you off.

They know customers who never win will never be back. They know its a casino, not a sheep-shearing shed. They have to run a business and they run it in a pleasant atmosphere with beautiful women around and liberal amounts of free booze. Its a casino, its not a convent and its not a charity. They don't spin the roulette wheel and pay out at true odds. They "take the bite" or they "wet their beak" or they have the "house edge" or whatever you want to call it. But that doesn't mean they want you to lose.

Its good to put the brakes on a customer who is losing heavily. Good for the customer and good for them.

Casinos in some countries have dealers who do not receive tips. Its an unusual situation but even a dealer without much incentive still realizes the entire casino will be deserted if no one ever wins. Even the non tip-sharing personnel know that today's winner will come back tomorrow with those winnings and re-bet them. Casinos want happy customers. Customers are happier when they've run but not unhappy when they lose. They knew the odds and they took their chance. Winning customers will be back with the casinos money. Losing customers will be back with their own money. Ripped-off customers won't be back at all.

Quote: AZDuffman

Plenty of dealers want players to win. .

Nope, I don't agree. Most are aware of how the casino makes money (I would hope) and to think most dealers want the players to leave winners is just naive.

Quote: FleaStiff

Winning customers will be back with the casinos money. Losing customers will be back with their own money. Ripped-off customers won't be back at all.

I'm not getting this. Where are the 'winning customers'? If you won $100 yesterday and lost $150 today, you're not a winner. There are NO winners, why does everybody keep saying there are? You think because you're down $4000 for the year and won $400 today, that makes you a winner? You think dealers want you to get ahead of the casino and stay there? And a casino is the very definition of 'rip off'. Offering games that you can never stay ahead on is the dictionary definition of rip off. If a dealer is indeed 'happy' that you won, its only because he knows you'll give it all back next time. Thats not being happy because somebody won, thats being happy because you know the guy is an idiot. Theres a big difference.

Quote: EvenBob

Nope, I don't agree. Most are aware of how the casino makes money (I would hope) and to think most dealers want the players to leave winners is just naive.

Winners tip more often than losers. Smart dealers know the casino will still make money off of losers. Winners come back. Any casino manager knows to bring in losers you need to send out winners. I am curious what a dealer might have done to you to have such a low opinion of them in this thread?

Quote: AZDuffman

Any casino manager knows to bring in losers you need to send out winners.

So you think casinos send people out that are ahead of the game? I remember when casinos found out some people could get ahead of BJ by counting cards. They went berzerk that somebody might be able to beat one of their unbeatable games. They over reacted and almost ruined BJ. Thats how casinos deal with consistent winners. They don't pat them on the back with a smile, as you seem to think, they back room them and used to put them in the hospital.

Quote: benbakdoff

I have a couple of questions for Croupier, Dan, mkl or anyone else who wants to chime in. Since tips are pooled, do the dealers police each other regarding behavior toward the players and what are your thoughts on dealers being allowed to keep their own tips?

There's no good way to do mutual policing, other than mutual trust. There are two contrasting arguments regarding tip pooling. One says that a dealer shouldn't be penalized for dealing to Ferd and Thelma, who are betting $3, nor conversely, rewarded for dealing to a drunk black chip bettor; the particular clientele a given dealer deals to on a given day is beyond his control. This argues for tip pooling. The other argument says that if tips are pooled, then no one dealer will have much incentive to treat the customers well (attacked elsewhere as "hustling tips"), and as a result, overall tip revenue will drop. For these reasons, I like AZDuffman's idea of pooling 50% and keeping 50%--mixed incentivizing. If I had to choose between one and the other, I'd opt for 100% pooled tips, because of the different earning potential of different shifts. The supervisors have too much power over the earning abilities of their employees if they keep their own tips; antagonize your boss (or refuse to have sex with him), and you might find yourself dealing the $2 game on graveyard shift, earning $17 a shift (if you're lucky).

"Having the odds in their favor does not mean they want to rip you off. Or that they want you to lose."

Name one business in the country that has no problem just giving away SOME of their products.

Quote: AZDuffman

Plenty of dealers want players to win.

Huh? Just like plenty of clerks and managers want their customers to walk away without paying for anything?

Quote: JerryLogan

Huh? Just like plenty of clerks and managers want their customers to walk away without paying for anything?

Not a valid comparrison at all.

Quote: AZDuffman

Not a valid comparrison at all.

Of course it is. People go into a casino, win, and take the money out. Those are assets the casino is parting ways with and without a cry. They have no idea if they'll ever get it back, and even though overall things should be OK, a winner does not help the casino grow.

People go into Sears, and if they walk out with a "free" drill they'll be arrested and made to give it back. Bottom line, a business cannot grow if it allows assets to just walk out the door. Stores have people who do it arrested. Casinos use all that is at their disposal in order to coerce and trick players to hand it over.