Casino Employees - Not The Bad Guy
Quote: JerryJoganNow picture yourself as a casino cashier or floor person responding to a slot machine jackpot. The casino cashier is no different from the bank teller you visited earlier to withdraw or deposit money, or to do something much more involved and time-consuming, yet the casino teller has a vested interest in you getting wiped out. Did you tip the bank teller? The floor person gives the expected patronizing lip service and tip-talk as you get paid, yet they sugar-talk you as if you are ahead regardless if you are still way behind. It is as phoney as a three dollar bill, and their job depends mostly on the amount you drop and not on how much you spend in the restaurant or bars.
The first point I want to make is that a Casino Cash Desk teller has absolutely no interest in seeing you wiped out. If you were not getting paid out, they would be out of a job, as machines can already dispense cash for winnings, so how long until that applies for chips too? They might be trying to make you feel special so you return.
A floor person might sugar talk you, but have you ever thought that that is maybe because they might want to enhance your experience, as if you enjoy yourself you might be more likely to return, or other players in the area might hear of your win, and be more inclined to play.
And while you may be technically correct in saying the jobs depend on the amount dropped, casino employees want you to enjoy yourself, and come back. There would be no point in just taking everyones money because that would leave people not wanting to come back. Slaughter the cow, youll eat well for a week. Milk the cow and you get milk daily.
You can complain about odds being fixed against you. You know this, and yet you still play the game. If you play for fun, entertainment, and take the wins and losses fine. If you know the odds are against you, and still play expecting to win, then you need a reality check.
Back to the point in hand. If you recieve good service at a restaurant, would you tip more? If you recieved bad service, would you still tip? Casino employees who hustle for tips do not deserve them. Casino Employees who work hard, are friendly and try to help you enjoy yourself are no less deserving than Servers who give you a positive experience in a restaurant.
Dont punish people for the way they pay their bills. Punish them for not being attentive, or conversational, or adaptive to your mood. Punish them for not being good at their job. But dont punish them just for working in a casino.
Most of the players who are bitching and moaning and saying, "Arrgh! Those casinos are crooks, and those employees just want to rook you, arg, arg, arg, arg, arg" are insufferable. Casino employees are just trying to enjoy their work, and authentically hope the players enjoy their time at the casino.
If these people were spoken to the way they deserved to be spoken to at times, it would be,
"Listen, jack-off, you've poisoned the atmsophere of this establishment with your noxious words and body odor, so if you're going to further push your luck by pulling on our dicks some more over some petty point, I'll have security push you out through the doors like a battering ram. As for your loses, it serves you the f-ck right because you're just a miserable bastard. Good bye and Good night." Such players used to be corrected as such back when this town was mob run.
Many players actually deserve this response - but instead get the undeserved patience and kindness they usually receive in the "New Vegas," no matter how insufferable.
Casinos are disinterested in your winnings and losings, as any individual player's wins and losses are insignificant in comparison of the volume of action per month or year. For any player to think that a casino worker or executive has any fear or interest or is "sweating" his penny-ante nickel and dime ups and downs is VERY self-agrandizing, narcissistic, and self-serving, to the point of ridicule, to think that "your action means anything." It means squat; what matters is having fun instead of being miserable. If you think some dealer or floorman gives a crap that some player hit a progressive in terms of the casinos lights going out, it's more like "good for them!" Share the joy!
Indeed, many dealers feel that by being a dealer they are burning off bad kharma, being professional and curteous to bossy people with no home training. Enough nice people make the job worthwhile. A dealer often looks at such people like a veterinarian who just saved the life of a puppy - who bit him as thanks. Idiot; He Knows Not Better.
When you walk into a casino, you know that there's a few percent house edge on any game, and you go in knowing that. To bitch and moan about it like we wanna hear this shit [instead of trying to overcome it through better play and money management - and enjoy yourself in the process ], you'd be better off making bait and going fishing.
Quote: Croupiercasino employees want you to enjoy yourself, and come back.
Most casino employees want their shift to end, they could care less if you're having a good time or not. Casino employees are like every other employee, they want their break to come, they want the shift to be over, they want to be home. Working in a casino is mind numbingly boring. If you think the people who work there are worrying that you might not be having a good time, you really need to get a grip on reality.
Quote: CroupierHaving read in a couple of other threads the arguament for not tipping casino employees, and painting casino employees to basically be the next coming of the Anitchrist, I wanted to try and put the other side across without derailing the other thread.
The first point I want to make is that a Casino Cash Desk teller has absolutely no interest in seeing you wiped out. If you were not getting paid out, they would be out of a job, as machines can already dispense cash for winnings, so how long until that applies for chips too? They might be trying to make you feel special so you return.
A floor person might sugar talk you, but have you ever thought that that is maybe because they might want to enhance your experience, as if you enjoy yourself you might be more likely to return, or other players in the area might hear of your win, and be more inclined to play.
I believe in tipping dealers but NOT cashiers or floor people. Floor people are supervisors and quite simply, supervisors are just not a tipped position anywhere, casino or not. The dealer is someone who you will spend quite some time with. At a table-game I will tip somewhere along the line unless the dealeris being outright rude. Then I will tip when they change to a new dealer who has a better understanding of good customer service. Yes, I know the tips are pooled in most cases, but maybe they are not and just maybe the surly one gets the message one day. Ever the optimist I am.
Poker I tip a small blind for a normal pot and big blind after a big pot on wins only. What is big and small I leave up to my mood at the time. New readers may say this is inconssistant, but it is not. Any table I have sat at the winner tips the dealer unless it is a truly mini-pot of just the blinds and sometimes even then. From what I have seen as a group poker players are the best tippers, though the poker room is a dead-end career move for a dealer.
OTOH, cashiers are simply handing me my cash. Their job is far easier. No matter how much Mr Pink may think it is unjust, I do not find cashiers or the hand-pay-girl a tipped job. If they want tips, they can carry drinks or stand behind a table.
Quote:Back to the point in hand. If you recieve good service at a restaurant, would you tip more? If you recieved bad service, would you still tip? Casino employees who hustle for tips do not deserve them. Casino Employees who work hard, are friendly and try to help you enjoy yourself are no less deserving than Servers who give you a positive experience in a restaurant.
Dont punish people for the way they pay their bills. Punish them for not being attentive, or conversational, or adaptive to your mood. Punish them for not being good at their job. But dont punish them just for working in a casino.
If I get bad service I leave exactly what the wait person deserves-ZERO. This rarely happens and I haven't done it in three years. But I have had a few times where the wait person kind of ruined my meal. Or ignored me the whole time. Or took forever to get my meal and didn't explain they were busy in the kitchen. I don't mind tipping but I *do* mind when any employee has the attitude of "where's my tip" instead of "thanks for the tip."
Besides Bob, how would you know? Are you a casino dealer, like I and croupier are?
Casino employees chose their work as appealing to them. They want people to have a good time, as the comradery and courtesy is contagious, and we know that. I like it way more than computer programming for others, and teaching high school math, before I was a dealer.
Another correction: gambling is fun, often exciting and many (not all) gamblers have great, extrovert personalities who are fun to deal to.
Your comment that "If you think people who work in casinos are worrying that you might not be having a good time, you really need to get a grip on reality."
In terms of being in contact with reality, you can only speak for yourself, Bob, because real dealers who work in real casinos are telling you otherwise.
It's bad enough when miserable people who don't like their own jobs complain about that.
It's worse when they judge and assume falsehoods about other people and their jobs.
People like or dislike their selected jobs (or lives for that matter) - based on their own happiness/misery index, and that's all there is to it. That says it all.
Quote: PaigowdanAnother correction: gambling is fun, often exciting and many (not all) gamblers have great, extrovert personalities who are fun to deal to.
Your comment that "If you think people who work in casinos are worrying that you might not be having a good time, you really need to get a grip on reality."
In terms of being in contact with reality, you can only speak for yourself, Bob, because real dealers who work in real casinos are telling you otherwise.
It's bad enough when miserable people who don't like their own jobs complain about that.
It's worse when they judge and assume falsehoods about other people and their jobs.
You have to realize that the "reality" referred to was BOB-reality. Much different from actual reality. I can second your statement that most dealers are truly interested in seeing that the players have a good time. Aside from the simple consideration that it makes your life more pleasant if you're nice to people, treating your customers well a) earns you more tokes and b) makes the day go by MUCH faster. If you stand there mechanically flinging cards, thinking to yourself, "I hope these assholes all lose", well, your 8-hour shift will seem like eternity.
I personally enjoyed the job, even though my immediate supervisors were almost always barely human. There was actually a tremendous amount of variety, for me, in that while I was doing pretty much the same thing all day, I would be interacting with hundreds of people. And I didn't have to do much to make their experience enjoyable--chat a little, crack a joke, congratulate them when they bet two greens and hit a snapper. Stuff like that.
Dealing is the third career of my life, and it is the best so far!
Quote: EvenBobMost casino employees want their shift to end, they could care less if you're having a good time or not. Casino employees are like every other employee, they want their break to come, they want the shift to be over, they want to be home. Working in a casino is mind numbingly boring. If you think the people who work there are worrying that you might not be having a good time, you really need to get a grip on reality.
Thanks for these insights EvenBob. I didn't realize working in a casino was so boring. That explains why sometimes a dealer or waitress will look disinterested in what they're doing - I'm sure most of the ones who look like they enjoy their job are utilizing a defense mechanism to "get through the day to pay the bills". Being a working man myself, I can't blame them, though I'll be sure to be more skeptical the next time I see a positive attitude. Live and learn! Thanks again and best of luck in the casinos!
Quote: EvenBobMost casino employees want their shift to end, they could care less if you're having a good time or not. Casino employees are like every other employee, they want their break to come, they want the shift to be over, they want to be home. Working in a casino is mind numbingly boring. If you think the people who work there are worrying that you might not be having a good time, you really need to get a grip on reality.
I don't know that casino employees are just waiting for their shif to end more or less than any other kind of employee. And as to boring, most jobs are boring. That is a reason people get paid to do them. Though I have to admit boxman looks the most boring job in the world. In exchange for how boring an mind-numbing dealing is you get far more breaks than say the assembly line worker putting armrests on Buicks. More money as well.
Now, I only deal the fun nights and am not comparing myself to Croupier or any other "real" dealer here. But I do have some insights from even my level. Dealers are human and like any human I am in different moods on different days. Some nights I am in a mood to help teach the game and some nights I hope the game just goes as fast as possible. Second, your attitude as a player affects my attitude sooner or later. Some players know nothing but it is my job to teach them. Some listen and learn. Some you have to explain it more. Once this one girl was so dense I started not even asking her and almost just played her hand for her since she wasn't paying attention anyways. (She was a college freshman, BTW. ) Some players are very engaged. Some are having conversations and have to be told to collect their win every last hand. One actually had family who owned a small casino and I let her deal a hand or two when she asked. But another time one thought she was a second-coming of Ken Uston but I had to warn her she was hitting a soft-20 three times. (When her attitude stayed the same I stopped doing that.)
Now, I'm sure you are saying I work parties and not a casino. But guess where it is the same? The dealer at Wynn, Croupier, and myself all have one thing in common. We must keep turning the cards no matter what. So, realize good dealers might want you to win and have a good time. A good dealer in a bad mood must be an acrtor no different than Robert DiNero playing a part, they are playing a happy employee. Bad dealers don't try to hide their bad mood. There is a place for people who like casinos but can't handle the players, survalence.
Sorry to hear your opinion. And Bob's opinions are not insights, it's cynicism that's just not the case for most dealers, just inaccurate and incorrect. Please don't subscribe to it, as you'd be mislead, if not poisoning yourself as to the point of geting out and hitting the tables.
Believe it or not, Dealing as a job is not suffering, it's usually a fun job with fun people who are looking for fun themselves. Dealing is a safer and more enjoyable job than higher positions in gaming. And no, don't yourself be "more skeptical" when you see someone in a good mood at work, especially in a casino. Believe it or not, good moods are authentic, because NO casino supervisor can FORCE anyone to be happy.
You guys scare me; when I DO get people who don't belong at a table - I give the misery back to them - just to get them out of here quicker, and that's all. I think this is what you guys are seeing. Dealers do scoot away miserable or toxic people, a body language/vocal inflection kind of things that says "You're skeptical / miserable / acting in bad faith here / not in the spirit / poisoning this table's espir de corps / etc. - So you may wanna move on. You Don't BELONG here."
True - there are some dealers who are caught in a rut. We call them "stuck dealers." Often they have no life outside of work, are behind on their bills, may be messing with booze and pills, and are just in a downward spirial, just because of who they are. You do see some of that, and they don't last long.
Quote: EvenBobMost casino employees want their shift to end, they could care less if you're having a good time or not. Casino employees are like every other employee, they want their break to come, they want the shift to be over, they want to be home. Working in a casino is mind numbingly boring. If you think the people who work there are worrying that you might not be having a good time, you really need to get a grip on reality.
I work in a casino. I do worry about people having a good time. If people are having a good time, it makes my job a hell of a lot easier. I work in a casino not for the games, but for the contact. I used to work in bars, and in all jobs I have had I have had a lot of face to face contact with my customers. Its what makes me damn good at my job now. I can read people, and figure out whos out for a good time, who just wants to gamble, and who just wants to get shitfaced and doesnt care about anything else. I adapt to what the customer wants from me. Different people want different things. I can think of timew where people have specifically found my managers to compliment me on how good I was, and they have returned and remembered me when they do.. How does that affect my grip on reality? It strengthens it and reinforces the fact that if I do a good job, it makes my job more secure.
Quote: PaigowdanNo...and...
Besides Bob, how would you know? Are you a casino dealer,
So, in your world, the dealers look forward to their shift? They can't wait to deal the hand or throw the ball, they have one eye on making the right payouts and the other on making sure the player is having a good time. In your world, the break room is a place where dealers have serious discussions about how to make the player happy, they never mock and laugh at them as the vicious rumors say. When their shift is over, they worry all the way home about how they can do better tomorrow. And it never gets boring, the casino atmosphere is so intense and just plain 'fun' that being bored just isn't an option.
I've been going to casinos since 1975, who are you kidding. I've talked to more dealers and read more on this subject than you could imagine. I even read the dealer forum on the net every day, what a joyful place that is..
But personally, in my casino, for the most part, I believe that the dealers are rooting for the players. It drives their tips. Winners tip more than losers. Winners have a better time more than losers. Winners make the day more pleasant than losers. I'd much work around happy people than miserable ones. That goes not only for my co-workers but it goes with my customers as well. People who have a good time come back. People who lose money at a casino and are miserable about it are sore losers. It happens. You get unlucky. You go to the casino to have fun, and hopefully, you get entertained, and if you win, you win, and if you lose, you lose.
If I were working in a casino as a manager, I would not be sweating the money. I'd be encouraging my dealers to be as pleasant as possible, to deal as accurately and quickly as possible, and to keep the tables full, and let the house advantage take care of itself. As long as people are sitting in chairs, the casino is making money.
Quote: EvenBobSo, in your world, the dealers look forward to their shift? They can't wait to deal the hand or throw the ball, they have one eye on making the right payouts and the other on making sure the player is having a good time.
I never said it was shangra-la; I said it's a good job that's frequently fun, and that most players and dealers make it fun, except for a few argumentative and miserable people who announce their posture with their words and attitude. I also said that most dealers who are in a good mood aren't faking it, and aren't putting on a show for your nickel action. Quite often, when dealers are rude, bored or surly, they are trying to run off a poisonous player who's ruining a table; have you considered this in their approach to you?
Quote: EvenBobIn your world, the break room is a place where dealers have serious discussions about how to make the player happy, they never mock and laugh at them as the vicious rumors say. When their shift is over, they worry all the way home about how they can do better tomorrow. And it never gets boring, the casino atmosphere is so intense and just plain 'fun' that being bored just isn't an option.]
Bob, you don't know my world, so don't put words in my mouth - that's the sign of weak argument. I never discuss how to make players happy, that comes naturally when you simply avoid miserable people, ahem. In the break room I check email, I have a meal, call my wife, etc. We don't talk about "making players happy" any more than taxi drivers talk about steering wheels on their break. That's a ridiculous assumption that shows that you have less casino and dealer experience that you let on here.
Quote: EvenBobI've been going to casinos since 1975, who are you kidding. I've talked to more dealers and read more on this subject than you could imagine. I even read the dealer forum on the net every day, what a joyful place that is..
Sorry, I don't believe you about your casino experience, which I, MKL, and Croupier have in spades; you clearly show great ignorance as to how casino professionals do or should approach their jobs. The fact that you've been inside casinos since 1975 doesn't mean you're knowledgable or experienced; it may just mean that you're just old. As for the dealers' forum, misery loves company, and you found them. Birds of a feather....
Usually, I want to help my patients and help them feel better. Some days I just want to get through and go home. On good days, I'm genuinely pleasant. On bad days, I'm putting on an act. On the worst days, my facade drops and I may be grumpy or short.
Pleasant people make my job a joy. Rude people turn my job into a job.
Making generalizations isn't helpful, when workers' friendliness and helpfulness varies so much from person-to-person and day-to-day.
Quote: CroupierHaving read in a couple of other threads the arguament for not tipping casino employees, and painting casino employees to basically be the next coming of the Anitchrist, I wanted to try and put the other side across without derailing the other thread.
The first point I want to make is that a Casino Cash Desk teller has absolutely no interest in seeing you wiped out. If you were not getting paid out, they would be out of a job, as machines can already dispense cash for winnings, so how long until that applies for chips too? They might be trying to make you feel special so you return.
A floor person might sugar talk you, but have you ever thought that that is maybe because they might want to enhance your experience, as if you enjoy yourself you might be more likely to return, or other players in the area might hear of your win, and be more inclined to play.
And while you may be technically correct in saying the jobs depend on the amount dropped, casino employees want you to enjoy yourself, and come back. There would be no point in just taking everyones money because that would leave people not wanting to come back. Slaughter the cow, youll eat well for a week. Milk the cow and you get milk daily.
You can complain about odds being fixed against you. You know this, and yet you still play the game. If you play for fun, entertainment, and take the wins and losses fine. If you know the odds are against you, and still play expecting to win, then you need a reality check.
Back to the point in hand. If you recieve good service at a restaurant, would you tip more? If you recieved bad service, would you still tip? Casino employees who hustle for tips do not deserve them. Casino Employees who work hard, are friendly and try to help you enjoy yourself are no less deserving than Servers who give you a positive experience in a restaurant.
Dont punish people for the way they pay their bills. Punish them for not being attentive, or conversational, or adaptive to your mood. Punish them for not being good at their job. But dont punish them just for working in a casino.
You seem so misled. Casino cashiers take in money, they cash checks, they do those stupid credit card advances that only addicts use, they help with safe deposit boxes, etc. etc. They work for the casino, and what do casinos want? Yup, they want YOU & ME to lose as much as we can and then some. They simply don't care what problems losing causes for the gambler. The more money they take in, the safer their jobs. That's the bottom line in any business. I notice you didn't address the comparison to your bank teller. DO YOU EVER TIP THEM???
Yeah right, floor people want to "enhance" my experience. The only thing that enhances my experience is winning. It is the casino vs. the gambler, and not some feel-good operation meant for entertainment first. I play to win and don't 3/4 of the time. But I'm not losing anything I don't have so it means next to nothing.
Yes, back to the point at hand. My grocery bagger works very hard to make sure I'm very satisfied. My tellers do the same and are very friendly. The Walgreens clerk does exactly the same. These people are more like casino workers and not waiters, valets or bartenders. DO WE TIP ANY OF THEM? And are they being punished if we don't?
People are simply intimidated into tipping in casinos. Whether it's to "buy" a good time or perceived good time, or when they're counting your last hundred in tacky twenties, or when they come along and say "congratulations" as tip talk not knowing whether you're still stuck or not, it's all intimidation because that's the way the employees want it to be. They know the weak will hand over THEIR money to them, and most players are weaklings when it comes to discipline and self-confidence.
Quote: JerryLoganPeople are simply intimidated into tipping in casinos.
I have to agree. Even though I tip, I fail to see why the dealer deserves it. I tip a waiter because he gives me good service. A dealer gives me indifferent to downright rude service, and still expects to be tipped. It makes no sense.
Quote: JerryLoganYes, back to the point at hand. My grocery bagger works very hard to make sure I'm very satisfied. My tellers do the same and are very friendly. The Walgreens clerk does exactly the same. These people are more like casino workers and not waiters, valets or bartenders. DO WE TIP ANY OF THEM? And are they being punished if we don't?
No, and neither are dealers if you don't tip; we know it averages out, and it's because of the kind and happy, shiny people. But Jerry, you cannot say that if your work happens to includes tips, then you must be a scheeming, greedy son of a bitch who doesn't take pride in being a professional - because you're in that job.
The argument that casinos only care about money can apply to any business: lawyers, doctors, teachers' unions, transit workers, locksmiths, mathematicians, you name it. Why single out casinos when movie theaters also charge for entertainment? Is the sales clerk "scheeming" to sell you two tickets to Avatar to separate you from your hard-earned money, and is being a nasty witch for doing so? In your logic, yes - because it's a for-profit business.
Quote: JerryLoganPeople are simply intimidated into tipping in casinos. Whether it's to "buy" a good time or perceived good time, or when they're counting your last hundred in tacky twenties, or when they come along and say "congratulations" as tip talk not knowing whether you're still stuck or not, it's all intimidation because that's the way the employees want it to be. They know the weak will hand over THEIR money to them, and most players are weaklings when it comes to discipline and self-confidence.
No, players aren't intimidated into tipping any more than taxi passengers, diners at a restaurant, or opening the door for the Pizza Hut delivery boy, whom you should also tip if fine service was rendered.
This whole thread is polizarized: the cranky miserable suspicious people (whom we now have NO IDEA as to WHY they'd want to step into the hell of a casino), and people who don't seem to have any issue with the casino experience. It is clear.
Miserable people see misery and conspiracy, and even takes steps to manufacture, promote, and forward the existence that realm, and happy, shiny people who get on with things (such as playing table games) without major gripes or issues.
I think the casinos and dealers are not the problem, it's how the players approach the experience. They make their own experience every time.
Quote: JerryLoganPeople are simply intimidated into tipping in casinos. Whether it's to "buy" a good time or perceived good time, or when they're counting your last hundred in tacky twenties, or when they come along and say "congratulations" as tip talk not knowing whether you're still stuck or not, it's all intimidation because that's the way the employees want it to be. They know the weak will hand over THEIR money to them, and most players are weaklings when it comes to discipline and self-confidence.
in·tim·i·date (n-tm-dt)
tr.v. in·tim·i·dat·ed, in·tim·i·dat·ing, in·tim·i·dates
1. To make timid; fill with fear.
2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats.
Exactly how are casino employees threatening the casino's customers, to get those customers to tip?
Quote: PaigowdanI think the casinos and dealers are not the problem, it's how the players approach the experience. .
Casinos are there for one reason, to get you to part with as much of your money as possible. If you accidentally have a good time while losing your shirt, theres always therapy. Dealers are there for one reason, because its a job. Nobody in their right mind works as a dealer for a career unless they absolutely can't get into anything else. I asked a dealer I know when he was going to move up in the world and wear a suit to work, and he said when he was buried. Maybe.
Benny Binion is famous for saying "Until the customers last check to us bounces, our job isn't done." Do you really think anything has changed?
Quote: EvenBobCasinos are there for one reason, to get you to part with as much of your money as possible. If you accidentally have a good time while losing your shirt, theres always therapy. Dealers are there for one reason, because its a job. Nobody in their right mind works as a dealer for a career unless they absolutely can't get into anything else.
So every single dealer, including those on this forum who are working in that profession, is in that line of work only because they absolutely can't find any other means of employment? Unless they aren't in their right mind, as you put it?
Do you realize how idiotic a blanket statement like that sounds? Not to mention, how insulting to those who are dealers?
Maybe YOU can't imagine YOURSELF as a casino dealer. Maybe YOUR casino experiences are so negative that you consider every casino employee an evil bastard. Maybe you think the slot machines are all plotting to get you. Maybe you think the cocktail waitresses poison your drinks. I don't know. That doesn't mean that other people besides yourself don't legitimately enjoy their jobs dealing in a casino.
One thing is probable, though--if you have a negative casino experience, it's because of your ingoing hostility and foul manner, not because everybody in the casino hates you (at least, not initially).
Quote: EvenBobBenny Binion is famous for saying "Until the customers last check to us bounces, our job isn't done."
Hmm, I'm glad my doctor doesn't say that.
Or maybe he does!
Quote: mkl654321So every single dealer, including those on this forum who are working in that profession, is in that line of work only because they absolutely can't find any other means of employment?.
Is that what I said? is that what you read, Will Hunting? I said as a CAREER. You know, the rest of your life? Look it up.
Quote: EvenBobIs that what I said? is that what you read, Will Hunting? I said as a CAREER. You know, the rest of your life? Look it up.
Why do you think that I am a fictional movie character? Do you have that tenuous a grip on reality?
Regarding tipping, we can have the situation like it is now, with tipping, and generally friendly fun dealers. The alternative is places like Europe and Macau, where dealers stand there like a brick wall and dish out cards with nary a word spoken. Personally, I'll take the former, and I think most Vegas players would too. It might make for a good poll. Even if you prefer the latter, I say that tipping is expected for a job well done.
Quote: PaigowdanFor any player to think that a casino worker or executive has any fear or interest or is "sweating" his penny-ante nickel and dime ups and downs is VERY self-agrandizing, narcissistic, and self-serving, to the point of ridicule.....
....and also true.
Not all of them, of course. But with my nickel and dime play, I have indeed watched them sweat the money something fierce, and be very unpleasant to me in the process.
I got on a good roll at The Plaza a few months ago, had all the numbers covered and was winning something like $150 a throw. The floorman was insufferable, and trying his damndest to interrupt me and try to take my attention away from throwing the dice. Shouting at his dealers (who were along for the ride with me, as when I get on a run I place the dealers on the winning number), occasionally about my alleged cheating short rolls (I don't sling the dice wildly all over like a drunk), and in general being an ass. I got him good. I pulled all my money off the felt and never sevened out. And lugged a couple grand outta there.
This is only but one example - especially at the lower level joints, a "big" winner is seen by many employees as a mortal threat to their jobs, and the winner is treated accordingly. On the other hand, even though my play at the Wynn is miniscule compared to a lot of people, when I walk away from a dice table with that same 2 or 3 grand I won at the Plaza, they do indeed seem happy for me.
There is a place in Atlantic City where I have been on a fierce craps roll this year - I've won something like 20 grand over several visits. I don't think I have had a losing session in there for over a year. And because of this, they are less eager to get my repeat business than some of those other places in town that I may have lost 4 or 5 grand of those same profits.
'You want a room on Saturday night, Mr. CrappedOut? Sorry, no can do." But that nicer place right next door where I'm on record as losing is eager to have me back for more, even on Saturday night.
The casinos, as institutions, hate it when you win. Individuals may be pleasant, but it's not in the interest of the house to be nice to you. I agree that they want to take all your money, as fast as possible, and will do everything to accomplish that goal. If that means being nice to you and giving you a Saturday night room, then they will do it. If it means being a jerk, they'll also do that. And some of them probably even prefer being nasty. Sometimes the lower level employees and floormen, like that guy at the Plaza this summer, also assume that role for their employers.
But don't even get me started about how they react once they realize that you're a blackjack player with a half a brain in your head....
Quote: WizardAt the most properties they want the customer to have a good time and return again and again. They truly value repeat business. When it comes to the casino, most modern places don't "sweat the money." As long the odds are in their favor, which they are careful to ensure, they just let the cards and dice fall where they may. casinos are not much different than any other customer-based business. If you want to maximize profit, don't gouge the customer, but do your best to have him leave happy.
I would agree. A bar wants your money but they don't want you to leave drunk and get behind the wheel. A casino wants your money and provides a festive atmosphere that may be a bit too alcohol sodden at times but in reality they want satisfied customers are perfectly willing to remember that the customer does have to win from time to time or he won't ever be back.
> Benny's comment is very old school, and not indicative of how business is done today.
As with many colorful characters, not all his comments reflected his actual thoughts on the matter.
I've been in a few "Sweat The Money" joints. I've not enjoyed the experiences.
I've been in a few "HappyWampum" casinos where its obvious that people got their jobs because they are tribal members, not because they know what they are doing. Poorly run casinos survive and even prosper in a monopoly situation. Some floor persons in an Indian casino have fixed-in-place sneers instead of the usual fixed-in-place smiles. In Indian casinos Dealers and Floormen have used profanity to these perpetually non-tipping fleas. It happens in monopoly situations. Things like that don't happen much in Las Vegas.
We go into the casino hoping to win but above all hoping to enjoy ourselves irrespective of our having heard that "Vegas is the city that was built by losers". Sure some dealers used to be burger flippers. Some dealers are second generation casino employees and can indeed get other jobs if they choose to. No matter what the financial situation of the dealer is, he has rules to follow. He is closely watched. Yet he will do his best to keep the game fair and to keep everyone happy. His income is largely tips. He "should" get tipped by everyone but he certainly gets the bulk of his tips from winners. Well, thats life in a casino. I couldn't stand all day long and I couldn't eat in an employee dining room that is under constant surveillance and I couldn't stand being told to hold my hand flat on the felt or other such minutiae that is common to a casino dealers life. They earn their tips. Its nice if they earn them with a smile and a friendly greeting but whatever the situation is, they earn those tips.
Quote: PaigowdanJoe -
Sorry to hear your opinion. And Bob's opinions are not insights, it's cynicism that's just not the case for most dealers, just inaccurate and incorrect. Please don't subscribe to it, as you'd be mislead, if not poisoning yourself as to the point of geting out and hitting the tables.
Believe it or not, Dealing as a job is not suffering, it's usually a fun job with fun people who are looking for fun themselves. Dealing is a safer and more enjoyable job than higher positions in gaming. And no, don't yourself be "more skeptical" when you see someone in a good mood at work, especially in a casino. Believe it or not, good moods are authentic, because NO casino supervisor can FORCE anyone to be happy.
You guys scare me; when I DO get people who don't belong at a table - I give the misery back to them - just to get them out of here quicker, and that's all. I think this is what you guys are seeing. Dealers do scoot away miserable or toxic people, a body language/vocal inflection kind of things that says "You're skeptical / miserable / acting in bad faith here / not in the spirit / poisoning this table's espir de corps / etc. - So you may wanna move on. You Don't BELONG here."
True - there are some dealers who are caught in a rut. We call them "stuck dealers." Often they have no life outside of work, are behind on their bills, may be messing with booze and pills, and are just in a downward spirial, just because of who they are. You do see some of that, and they don't last long.
Dan, I've read enough of your posts to know you're the real deal, but I got to tell you you're starting to sound a bit jaded here.
Not a criticism just an observation.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, and neither are dealers if you don't tip; we know it averages out, and it's because of the kind and happy, shiny people. But Jerry, you cannot say that if your work happens to includes tips, then you must be a scheeming, greedy son of a bitch who doesn't take pride in being a professional - because you're in that job.
The argument that casinos only care about money can apply to any business: lawyers, doctors, teachers' unions, transit workers, locksmiths, mathematicians, you name it. Why single out casinos when movie theaters also charge for entertainment? Is the sales clerk "scheeming" to sell you two tickets to Avatar to separate you from your hard-earned money, and is being a nasty witch for doing so? In your logic, yes - because it's a for-profit business.
No, players aren't intimidated into tipping any more than taxi passengers, diners at a restaurant, or opening the door for the Pizza Hut delivery boy, whom you should also tip if fine service was rendered.
This whole thread is polizarized: the cranky miserable suspicious people (whom we now have NO IDEA as to WHY they'd want to step into the hell of a casino), and people who don't seem to have any issue with the casino experience. It is clear.
Miserable people see misery and conspiracy, and even takes steps to manufacture, promote, and forward the existence that realm, and happy, shiny people who get on with things (such as playing table games) without major gripes or issues.
I think the casinos and dealers are not the problem, it's how the players approach the experience. They make their own experience every time.
The big difference here is you for some reason you believe casinos are in business for entertainment. They are not....not when you look at what the purpose of the casino really is in and of itself. The shows, restaurants, theaters etc. are there for our entertainment, but the casino is there FOR ONE REASON ONLY: to seperate us from as much of our money as possible, without regard. Are the ATM's all over casino floors there for entertainment purposes also? Of course not, they are simply a casino tool as a means to an end.
Tipping in casinos is pure intimidation, which is why I don't get tricked into doing it. I control what I do. There's nothing to compare it to when talking taxi's, pizza hut, bartenders etc. Those people provide a service we're purchasing. Dealers and floor people are there not for a service-enhancement, but to help make our time in their place of business a time of parting with as much of our money as we can, and to somehow feel good about it. And then when we DO win their money they intimidate greatly in order to get as much of it as they can their greedy hands. If someone wins, they prey on them in their time of weakness because they're in a state of euphoria. That is gutless and disgusting.
Quote: WizardI take Dan's side in this dispute. I've met lots of people in high casino management through the years. At the most properties they want the customer to have a good time and return again and again. They truly value repeat business. When it comes to the casino, most modern places don't "sweat the money." As long the odds are in their favor, which they are careful to ensure, they just let the cards and dice fall where they may. Now if Kerry Packer comes into town, they may get a little nervous, much as I do when I have a huge bet on something. Still, casinos are not much different than any other customer-based business. If you want to maximize profit, don't gouge the customer, but do your best to have him leave happy. Benny's comment is very old school, and not indicative of how business is done today.
Regarding tipping, we can have the situation like it is now, with tipping, and generally friendly fun dealers. The alternative is places like Europe and Macau, where dealers stand there like a brick wall and dish out cards with nary a word spoken. Personally, I'll take the former, and I think most Vegas players would too. It might make for a good poll. Even if you prefer the latter, I say that tipping is expected for a job well done.
Of course the casinos want the customers to return again & again, they want every drop of cash they can get out of them. And they do NOT care one bit if the player has a good time or not. It's a great slogan for getting in new fish, but it has nothing to do with reality. At least Benny Binion did not lie about it. The only reason it is not indicative of how business is done today is because it's not politically correct. That doesn't mean it's not the truth.
People will come back to casinos whether or not they've had a good time. Casinos prey on weaknesses just as I said in the tipping issue, and they know the patron will return because it's a habit for most people, and for some it's a problem. They give lip service with all the GA pamphlets around but you have to know putting that stuff up pains them deeply to do it. All they want....all they're in business for, is to take as much of your money as they can and hope you are creative enough to keep on getting it from any and all means possible so you can hand all of it and more, over.
Quote: JerryLogan..The shows, restaurants, theaters etc. are there for our entertainment, but the casino is there FOR ONE REASON ONLY: to seperate us from as much of our money as possible, without regard....Tipping in casinos is pure intimidation, which is why I don't get tricked into doing it. I control what I do. There's nothing to compare it to when talking taxi's, pizza hut, bartenders etc. Those people provide a service we're purchasing. Dealers and floor people are there not for a service-enhancement, but to help make our time in their place of business a time of parting with as much of our money as we can, and to somehow feel good about it. And then when we DO win their money they intimidate greatly in order to get as much of it as they can their greedy hands. If someone wins, they prey on them in their time of weakness because they're in a state of euphoria. That is gutless and disgusting.
Unreal. Simply put, Casinos are for-profit entertainment. Period, end of story. No conspiracy about grubby little fingers sneaking back into your pocket to get some back. You win, you are free to leave with it, no obligation, even to tip, - and good for you for winning. That's what they are. This is absolutely true, totally undeniable, and quite obvious when it's pointed out. If casinos provided nothing, then there'd be no casinos, and we wouldn't be having this chit-chat.
The approach that "they only exist" to take your money applies to all for-profit industry and fields. You can also say all industries and fields provide some sort of product or service, and make money for it. I don't see many poor doctors or lawyers or theater owners, and some provide questionable or absent service. ALL "for profit" business are a means to an end in providing a product or service, - doesn't matter which - and casinos are none different, but only casinos perform a "charade" about it in your view.
Tipping in casinos is the same for tipping in restauarants, cab rides, the Pizza Hut delivery boy - either tip or don't tip without bitching about it - and ANY worker who depends on tips may or may not hustle for it. I've seen waiters pitch hissy-fits when stiffed, and I've seen dealers say, "no problem - it all averages out" and be done with it. I know I do this. I'd be a fool to concern myself with a stiff.
As for the argument that you're not "purchasing something" at a casino, you are purchasing "time and risk" as your entertainment - the chance to double your money or lose it trying, having excitement in a social evironment the process.
As for providing a service, dealers provide one hell of a service baby-sitting insufferable pricks at a table whenever they come by. This is in addition to being expected to have the accuracy of a computer, the speed of play of an automatron, of being an entertainer to the customers, and the reliability of the rising sun when suiting up and showing up to work, just to provide people some ENTERTAINMENT. There's that word.
The only bad part about the job (aside from cranky floormen) are the insufferable players who claim "you're here to take my money, you theiving casino employee - aren't cha! House edge? I KNEW there was a nefarious catch to it all! IT'S A CONSPIRACY! And not gonna tip you no matter WHAT. We'd be CRAZY to enter casino! ...and by the way....change $200 for me." I see this twice a day, the rest of the people being relatively healthy.
So the fact that Casinos provide some sort of service is undeniable, in the sense that they have customers receiving "something" that makes them show up. (Can you tell us what that is?) That a specific purchase is non-physical nature is much like seeing a movie where you leave there with only a memory and less money. But at the movies, you have no chance to leave with any more money.
We can take the argument that the Pizza deliverly boy is shaking us down for a tip, as he's holding our very sustinance that he won't give up until we pay - and therefore we are intimidated into giving him a tip! It's a conspiracy and all that jazz. Well, if you going to complain about casino conspiracies and hustling dealers, don't go in. Make some bait and go fishing.
Quote: dudestupidI'm in a totally different field (family medicine). You could take each one of these posts, and replace "dealer" with "doctor" or nurse, and the thread would be the same. You could also interchange it with waiter, or flight attendant, or any other job where you have to interact with a variety of people all day long.
Usually, I want to help my patients and help them feel better. Some days I just want to get through and go home. On good days, I'm genuinely pleasant. On bad days, I'm putting on an act. On the worst days, my facade drops and I may be grumpy or short.
Pleasant people make my job a joy. Rude people turn my job into a job.
Making generalizations isn't helpful, when workers' friendliness and helpfulness varies so much from person-to-person and day-to-day.
There is no reason to think that the service workers at a casino are any different than service workers at other occupations. People that are nice to them, they like, people that are not nice to them, they don't like.
Do you honestly think the flight attendant is happy to bring you a drink when you "buzz" him/her?
Do you believe the cashier when they say "It was my pleasure to serve you today?"
When I was in the service industry, some people I would help more than others. I imagine if I were a dealer, I'd be happy if some nice people won. Of course, I'd realize that the nice people are probably going to give it back, and the jerks that win are probably going to give it back, so it wouldn't really matter.
Considering casino employees "bad guys" is silly, in a lot of different ways, no matter what your feeling is about casinos.
Industry provides product & services in return for patrons' money. Casinos provide absolutely nothing other than most people walking in with anxiety and walking out disappointed. If that's entertainment then I'm a teacher.
I usually don't play table games so maybe that's where some of the disconnect is. But when I do I feel I can't stand anyone else at the table much in the same way I can't stand the drivers around me on the road, even though I know most of them are good decent people if I got to know them. I just can't see tipping someone who's primary purpose is to help me lose as much of my money to their casino as possible.
Quote: JerryLoganDealers and floor people are there not for a service-enhancement, but to help make our time in their place of business a time of parting with as much of our money as we can, and to somehow feel good about it. And then when we DO win their money they intimidate greatly in order to get as much of it as they can their greedy hands. If someone wins, they prey on them in their time of weakness because they're in a state of euphoria. That is gutless and disgusting.
Gee whiz. Why would anyone in his or her right mind even want to visit a place like that, not to mention spending money there?
Claiming denial on anyone else is wrong. We can say that we disagree - yes - but name calling/insinuation is a non-starter.
I want you to consider each "casino" statement simply on a true or false basis, and see why casinos manage to exist, and are not horrible dens of inequity:
1. Casinos are not about everyone losing. If everyone lost, there'd be no casinos. This would be the worst possible scenario, not the best: people would immediately abandon casinos in droves and the gov't would shut them down on usury. Can you deny this?
2. Casinos don't want everyone to leave with all of their money, also true. Movie theaters, Hospitals, and restaurants don't want people to leave with all of their money, either. They all provide some sort of service, whether we condone it or not. As for casinos, some leave with even more money, some leave with less, and casinos hold a certain percentage of it, as do all other institutions.
3. You may be wrong about Casinos providing no services except for anxiety and people walking out dissapointed. If that were true, they'd be no casinos. Clearly, many people find entertainment there, otherwise there'd be no casinos. For people to seek out anxiety and dissappointment is dysfuntional. For people to seek entertainment as it appeals to them is normal, healthy. Can you see this as true?
4. Casino play can be addicting. So can alcohol, X-box play, and food. True, some people return because of an addictive mechanism when they're getting into ruin(compulsive gambling), but I argue that most casino patrons handle casinos just fine, as most healthy people can handle a bar outing (alcohol) and restaurants (food) in a healthy fashion also.
Some people, even those on gaming forums and who are casino patrons, view casinos as a detriment, or an evil, or as a somewhat negative thing. Others (including me) view gaming as a great and legitimate industry that should be regulated and have safeguards.
But to suggest that their next break and helping the casino separate the gambler from their money is the only thing on their mind, is silly.
Time flies when you're having fun. Time also flies when you're spending time with people having fun. Time drags when you're with grumpy people. Making things enjoyable for the gamblers, so that they are having fun, helps the dealer's time fly. So why wouldn't they encourage a player to have a good time?
When a dealer does "succeed in busting a player," it's actually bad for the dealer, since that means the table isn't as fun, and time moves slower.
Don't get me wrong. I think most dealers take great joy in busting player - but only players that are jerks. And that is not defined by whether the player was tipping, but whether he was simply acting like a jerk or being unpleasant, rude, whatever.
Quote: JerryLoganAll I can deduce is that you are in denial Dan. Casinos simply do whatever they can to make people feel good about losing, no two ways about it. If you want to label that as entertainment then I understand. They do not want anyone to leave with any of their money, and whenever that occurs then they have failed at their job. What the Wizard says about how they know they'll win overall because that's what they do is true, but it has to be looked at an a case-by-case basis for that to be true. Case-by-case, if everyone lost it would be the best possible scenario, and the casino knows almost every one of those "cases" will be back because casinos by nature promote addictive play. They've got you coming and going.
And yet, there is the upcoming 10k sports bet coming up. I guess if he loses, he will feel good about it, no doubt.
I am a player who will tip the dealer, regardless of winning or losing. I am always amazed that people will not tip the cocktail waitress, though. She has to go to the bar and get your drink and come back to you. Much like any profession, there are always exceptional employees, and those you wish would go away. One of the reasons I like to play at the Golden Gate in Vegas, is that the blackjack dealers are so fun to play with. Shoot, they'd jump over the table and give me a piggy back ride if I asked, it seems like. Oh wait, that's just a dream. :)
One thing which people haven't discussed - the tips which we are talking about are pooled for the shift. So, the sourpuss who doesn't get any tips from the table affects the overall toke rate for the entire shift (albeit by a small amount). Sometimes I feel bad for the dealers who are really friendly and courteous, as I know that they are only getting a portion of the tips from people.
I am only a casual machine player, so I've never hit a jackpot that required a slot attendant, but I suppose I would tip a nominal amount if it was a long time to pay my winnings out. I can't understand why anyone would tip a cashier.
-B
1. I don't agree with that, and not everyone loses. I said the casino WANTS everyone to lose, but we know that doesn't happen. Ever take a look around at the locals casinos or any Indian casino? Those local people are their lifeblood, and no matter how often or how much they lose, they will return ASAP with cash from any means possible because it is an addiction and not entertainment.
2. Not a good example. There's no chance of leaving a hospital, movie theater or a restaurant with even a penny of their money. You pay for a service or product and you get it. A casino gives you nothing for what you drop. People always say "but I got a lot of entertainment for my money" after they walk out a loser, but you know that's all BS. Most people lose in casinos, and most of those people leave unhappy because of it. How many people are unhappy after a meal, a movie or a hoispital stay in comparison, and those places provided something absolute for what the people spent.
3. I believe you look at casinos in general and in theory. The reality is, people just want to win money, and if they don't they are in fact disappointed. To say otherwise is to be in denial. And how many gamblers don't go into a casino filled with anxiety and hope? Again, I do not look at the gambling as a form of entertainment because of these reasons. I look at the ancillary venues as both the entertainment aspect as well as the contributors to keeping players on as long as possible so they will lose even more money than was intended. Casinos prey on human weakness, and they use every means possible to drain every penny possible out of the player.
4. I disagree. Almost everyone I know who plays is addicted to it, including me. Confirmation of that can easily be found when people who say they are "AP's" and do not "gamble" just as clearly display a sign that says "I'm lying to both you and me about that". The rest? The locals wouldn't go in as often as possible if they weren't compelled to, and the frequent visitors from out of town wouldn't show up drueling over their mailed offers so much if they didn't really have a problem with playing more than they should. There is a BIG difference between a gambling addiction and XBOX play (which I happen to have BTW).
Just the point that you believe gambling should have safeguards speaks volumes. I like going to play and I like the meals, shows etc. and we always look forward to our trips. But unlike many, I know what I'm getting into.
Quote: toastcmuAnd yet, there is the upcoming 10k sports bet coming up. I guess if he loses, he will feel good about it, no doubt.
I am a player who will tip the dealer, regardless of winning or losing. I am always amazed that people will not tip the cocktail waitress, though. She has to go to the bar and get your drink and come back to you. Much like any profession, there are always exceptional employees, and those you wish would go away. One of the reasons I like to play at the Golden Gate in Vegas, is that the blackjack dealers are so fun to play with. Shoot, they'd jump over the table and give me a piggy back ride if I asked, it seems like. Oh wait, that's just a dream. :)
One thing which people haven't discussed - the tips which we are talking about are pooled for the shift. So, the sourpuss who doesn't get any tips from the table affects the overall toke rate for the entire shift (albeit by a small amount). Sometimes I feel bad for the dealers who are really friendly and courteous, as I know that they are only getting a portion of the tips from people.
I am only a casual machine player, so I've never hit a jackpot that required a slot attendant, but I suppose I would tip a nominal amount if it was a long time to pay my winnings out. I can't understand why anyone would tip a cashier.
-B
Why would I feel good about losing the bet??
I always tip cocktail waitresses, and the better they look the more I tip. Just the way it should be.
Why do you care one bit about how the dealers or anyone else feels or what they get from a pool oof tips? Your only REAL concern is about YOUR winning or losing.
On a handpay jackpot, you're saying you'd automatically hand over a portion of that winnings for what reason? Does that make any sense? What did the attendant do beyond their job to deserve free money from cash you risked your own money gambling for? Were they going to tip YOU if you got wiped out?
Quote: JerryLoganWhy would I feel good about losing the bet??
I was just taking your quote "Casinos simply do whatever they can to make people feel good about losing, no two ways about it." and relating it to your upcoming sports bet. I'll give you props since in your other response saying that you're addicted to the VP play. That's one of the reasons I don't play it (or any other machines) that often - I have a friend who goes to Vegas who's single and plays VP on the strip, and his stories of 5-6k losses will keep me far away from those machines!
As I've never hit a handpay, I'm not sure what portion (if any) I'd hand over. It wouldn't be more than $20, that's for sure.
-B
Quote: toastcmuI was just taking your quote "Casinos simply do whatever they can to make people feel good about losing, no two ways about it." and relating it to your upcoming sports bet. I'll give you props since in your other response saying that you're addicted to the VP play. That's one of the reasons I don't play it (or any other machines) that often - I have a friend who goes to Vegas who's single and plays VP on the strip, and his stories of 5-6k losses will keep me far away from those machines!
As I've never hit a handpay, I'm not sure what portion (if any) I'd hand over. It wouldn't be more than $20, that's for sure.
-B
OK, but I said that first part meaning I'm one who does not feel good about losing, ever, even though casinos try to make me feel good about it.
I believe anyone who has gone back to a casino even one time for the purpose of playing video poker, is addicted to it or soon will be.
If it's okay to call people in denial, then can I say that you are in denial about casinos providing entertainment? About not wanting every single person on the planet to be losers, etc?
1. Casinos don't want everyone to lose. That's a myth, a falsehood that some subscribe to. They just expect their percentage. And yes, they are usually nice guys.
2. All were good examples: All institutions charge for service, casinos no exception through the house edge. EVERYTHING IS PAY FOR PLAY! And a casino may indeed give you money for the drop, that's why we come to casinos.
3. I do look at it in theory, but also as a daily face-to-face personal practice as a dealer. I work at a casino table dealing face-to-face with players. Sure, people want to win money, and sure, they're disappointed if they blow the mortgage payment. But if a player plays for a long time and loses $50, he may be fine with it. And casinos don't prey on human weakness, because gambling is not a weakness or compulsion in healthy people, it's a pasttime; to say it's the majority case for gamblers by declaring it unilaterally a weakness is incorrect. It's like saying social dinking is a weakness because alcoholics also exist. Remember, only a small percentage of gamblers are problem gamblers; now for them, it is a weakness, as alcohol is a weakness, a compulsion, for alcoholics.
4. You're just flat-out wrong that it is an addiction for all; if "almost everyone you know who plays is addicted to it, including you" then you have to consider that the company you keep may be problem gamblers - whose company might not be good for you. (People, places, and things). Living here in Las Vegas, I go six months without gambling, then go twice a week for two weeks. I won $2,300 in ten minutes on a $100 buy-in at Sunset Station on Three-card poker ("slamming straight flushes"), and left to buy wish-list itms for the house instead of seeking more action. At my casino, our "regular" players play $100 a week, once a week, win or lose, as if it were their schedule weekend movie or bridge night.
It is true that we sometimes do not know what we're getting into when we buy in at a table; anything can happen: win, lose, or even the germination of a compulsion.
Quote: Paigowdan
As for providing a service, dealers provide one hell of a service baby-sitting insufferable pricks at a table whenever they come by.
That's exactly the kind of attitude I see too much of in casinos. Not every dealer, of course. But a lot of them. And these guys doubtless piss and moan about me stiffing them.
Stiffing guys who view customers like this is a SERVICE to the rest of us players. Toking bad attitudes reinforces them.
Quote: JerryLoganCasinos prey on weaknesses just as I said in the tipping issue, and they know the patron will return because it's a habit for most people, and for some it's a problem. They give lip service with all the GA pamphlets around but you have to know putting that stuff up pains them deeply to do it. All they want....all they're in business for, is to take as much of your money as they can and hope you are creative enough to keep on getting it from any and all means possible so you can hand all of it and more, over.
Just what are the casinos supposed to do that they aren't doing already to control compulsive gambling? In my opinion, the casinos care about problem gambling in the same way a vineyard owner cares about alcoholism. Both offer a product that is potentially addictive, but ultimately each individual has to be responsible for his own actions. There is not much the casino or vineyard can do about it.
Casinos expect their percentages of course, but that's an analysis that stops at that and goes no further because I don't think you want to say it. How do they get to those percentages? Of course, by people LOSING. And an up close and personal look at every gambler for profit margin concerns would force the casino to choose that there be a whole lot of losers compared to winners. Therefore, the only conclusion possible is that in order to attain those percentages, there has to be a lot of losers and the casino has to do everything possible in order to meet that goal. Providing entertainment on the side such as restaurants and shows are a few of the vehicles used to get there. Trying to make losing at BJ and other table games as much "fun" as possible by incorporating distractions such as half naked women dealing, pole dancers, and/or loud wild music and singers only serves to confirm what I believe.
I am always amazed at how so many people who live in LV and work in the casino business, either claim they are not addicted to gambling or say they do not gamble. And it is ALWAYS followed by a listing of reasons, always. But when and if they do play, they win! It makes you wonder what it is that keeps all those local casinos in such good shape. I guess none of that will ever change, and I too would probably do and say the same things if I lived and worked there.
Quote: CrappedOutQuote: Paigowdan
As for providing a service, dealers provide one hell of a service baby-sitting insufferable pricks at a table whenever they come by.
That's exactly the kind of attitude I see too much of in casinos. Not every dealer, of course. But a lot of them. And these guys doubtless piss and moan about me stiffing them.
Stiffing guys who view customers like this is a SERVICE to the rest of us players. Toking bad attitudes reinforces them.
1. We call 'em just as we see 'em.
2. Yes, we may not provide good service to those who are abusive and miserable, not worrying about tips from 'em anyway.
3. We do give subtle verbal and body language to troublesome players to edge them out of a table ("Oh, too bad, you lose again! I feel your pain. Perhaps you may wish to try your luck on the Big Six?")
4. Crappedout, if you see this from a dealer, please refer to #2 and #3, above. I really don't mean to be off-putting in any way, but it may apply to you if you are seeing it frequently from dealers. Dealers respond in a fashion as to how they are treated.
5. Dealers seldom worry about some bloke stiffing them because it all averages out. We piss and moan about nasty, miserable people, and delight in happy, shiny people.
Quote: JerryLoganYes Dan you can tell me I'm in denial if I don't believe in that which you are a true believer of.
Casinos expect their percentages of course, but that's an analysis that stops at that and goes no further because I don't think you want to say it. How do they get to those percentages? Of course, by people LOSING.
Jerry - it's not "losing," it's "losing within a specified mathematical range" that casinos use - some parameters MUST be applied.
I am also a table game designer (ask Wizard), and I know that if my table wins 100% of its action, it's a lousy game, a dead game, like a dead man.
On the other hand, if it holds less than 12%, then it is too generous. Casinos want table games to hold within 15% to 25% of drop. Above that percentage, they lose customers and make LESS money, and below that, they don't take in enough money and make LESS money, too.
So it's not "players losing" per se that casinos want, it's the mathematical model of the player's action they want to see: some winners, some losers, with slightly more losers than winners. Balance, not "losers" or "winners." A perfect mixture, really.
Quote: PaigowdanJerry - it's not "losing," it's "losing within a specified mathematical range" that casinos use - some parameters MUST be applied.
I am also a table game designer (ask Wizard), and I know that if my table wins 100% of its action, it's a lousy game, a dead game, like a dead man.
On the other hand, if it holds less than 12%, then it is too generous. Casinos want table games to hold within 15% to 25% of drop. Above that percentage, they lose customers and make LESS money, and below that, they don't take in enough money and make LESS money, too.
So it's not "players losing" per se that casinos want, it's the mathematical model of the player's action they want to see: some winners, some losers, with slightly more losers than winners. Balance, not "losers" or "winners." A perfect mixture, really.
I understand how you're looking at it, but that's not how it really goes down. When a host invites me in for a few days of RFB etc., they want to see me lose. They track my play, and every now and then come out to make small talk because they can see what machine I'm playing at any time they like. If I'm losing they offer phoney encouragement; if I'm winning they turn into obvious liars by saying how happy they are for me today.
The point is, you may theorize on how it's all about overall percentages and what happens overall, but in order to get there it is a menagerie of individual contacts which in turn translates into a whole lot of casino hopes for individual losses.
Quote: JerryLoganWhen a host invites me in for a few days of RFB etc., they want to see me lose.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that hosts are mostly compensated by the theoretical loss of their players. So they can genuinely wish their players good luck, because it costs them nothing if they win, and the player will be more likely to play longer and return.
