Time for a "reverse-Ferguson?"
Quote: EvenBobGodwins Law on full view here, folks. Never
ceases to amaze.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Feel free to replace nazi with moron. Same thing to me.
Quote: EvenBobNo, it's not.
"Does any serious scientist any longer doubt that heredity contributes importantly to individual differences in intelligence?" This was the question put by Professor Robert Plomin of the Institute of Psychiatry in London in a recent issue of the scientific journal Behavioural Genetics.'
Genetics is the key.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/has-genetics-won-the-iq-debate-1575770.html
I don't normally engage in debates on the internet, but I'll leave a quick note to say that your quote and cited authority don't actually support your point. Intelligence (and measurement of intelligence is much more complex than IQ) can be determined by genetics and still be independent of race. Intelligence can be determined by other nucleotides on the genes than those that code for race. In saying that black people have lower IQs, you're implying that there's a causal link between skin color and intelligence, insofar as someone born black is more likely to be less intelligent than someone born white. You have yet to show that.
In my personal opinion, the fact that people can get banned on this forum for silly personal insults but not vile racist pseudoscience is a real detriment.
Quote: harvson3In saying that black people have lower IQs, .
I never said it, the stats said it! The stats
are found everywhere, there is nothing 'racist'
in them! Some are from the military, are
they racist too?
This PC crap is insane. If you have different
IQ stats then post them. Your opinion counts
for nothing without proof to back them up.
So far not one person who says the stats are
wrong has produced the 'right' ones. I'm sure
it's not for lack of trying. (here's a clue, the
ones I posted are correct) Welcome to the real
world, not the PC one created for us.
Quote: EvenBobI never said it, the stats said it! The stats
are found everywhere, there is nothing 'racist'
in them!
You're getting it, Bob. Stats aren't racist, people are. When you say the reason Black people scored this, or Asians scored that, is because of their skin color, that's stupid, that's nazi (moron) propaganda, and it's nuts.
Quote: JyBrd0403You're getting it, Bob. Stats aren't racist, people are. .
I get it. Their race had nothing to do
with the IQ scores. Jews scored higher
than anybody and it's a coincidence
they have won 20% of the Nobel
Prizes and make up .02% of the world
population. Its a fluke, the two things
are unrelated.
Thanks for clearing that up, I was getting
confused by the facts again. If we just
treat everybody the same, we will all
be winning Nobel Prizes in equal measure.
Lets not even talk about the Jews being
the most beaten down and discriminated
against people in history. That they have
managed in every instance to pull themselves
up every time and flourish and prosper.
That's just a fluke, a coincidence. How
silly of me..
Quote: EvenBobI get it. Their race had nothing to do
with the IQ scores. Jews scored higher
than anybody and it's a coincidence
they have won 20% of the Nobel
Prizes and make up .02% of the world
population.
Not race.
Kosher foods.
Religion.
& Funny hats.
Not bringing trees in the house in December.
You've ruled none of that out.
Quote: KeyserIntelligence is a core construct in differential psychology and behavioural genetics, and should be so in cognitive neuroscience. It is one of the best predictors of important life outcomes such as education, occupation, mental and physical health and illness, and mortality. Intelligence is one of the most heritable behavioural traits.
Smart people always have smart kids. I'm
the only one here that noticed that? In
sperm banks, whose sperm are the smart
women seeking out? The kid HS dropout
in prison, or the doctor who finished 3rd
in his class. Why are they choosing the
doctor if genetics don't determine intelligence?
Quote: EvenBobI get it. Their race had nothing to do
with the IQ scores. Jews scored higher
than anybody and it's a coincidence
they have won 20% of the Nobel
Prizes and make up .02% of the world
population. Its a fluke, the two things
are unrelated.
Thanks for clearing that up, I was getting
confused by the facts again. If we just
treat everybody the same, we will all
be winning Nobel Prizes in equal measure.
Lets not even talk about the Jews being
the most beaten down and discriminated
against people in history. That they have
managed in every instance to pull themselves
up every time and flourish and prosper.
That's just a fluke, a coincidence. How
silly of me..
Just out of curiousity, and so I know who I'm dealing with. Do you mind if I ask you if you are a racist, Bob? I mean do you consider yourself a racist? Because, I mean there's no doubt that you can tell the intelligence of someone by looking at their skin, but do you consider that to be racist? Judging people solely based on their skin color to you, is that racist to you? Because to everyone else that is the definition of racism.
So, I'll go through this one more time, if you can answer the above questions for me.
Okay, bob, take those same people they used for the study, don't let them read any books for 20 years, then ask them questions about stuff in those said books they never read, see how they do on the test. Intelligent people aren't born that way, social factors 100% create the intelligence. No books, no book smarts, period. You can see that right?
Quote: rxwineNot race.
Kosher foods.
Religion.
& Funny hats.
Not bringing trees in the house in December.
You've ruled none of that out.
I don't have time to cover everything. I didn't
even mention Seinfeld or Larry David. What's
their combined wealth. How many times a
day does 'Seinfeld' play around the world and
they get paid big every time it does.
Quote: JyBrd0403Intelligent people aren't born that way, social factors 100% create the intelligence.
I can't tell if you're joking or being serious.
If you're serious, you can't really believe
that. Can you? You must be joking. We
have people on here with genius IQ's, you
think they got that way with the right social
factors? That if they had inferior social
factors, they would be just average?
Good one, you almost had me.
Quote:Intelligent people aren't born that way, social factors 100% create the intelligence. No books, no book smarts, period. You can see that right?-JyBrd0403
Sorry JyBrd0403,
Science says otherwise. "Intelligence is one of the most heritable behavioral traits."
I'm sorry if science is not always politically correct.
http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2014105a.html
The footnote on the blog to back up that supposed assertion has absolutely nothing to do with the assertion about disqualifications for police officers. This is the entire reference:Quote: bigfoot66Well we should all agree that Cops are dumb, and this is by design. Being too intelligent can disqualify your application to be a cop. http://knowledgegivespower.blogspot.com/2013/07/police-iq-limit-can-you-be-too-smart-to.html
"Music Lessons Enhance IQ
E. Glenn Schellenberg
University of Toronto at Mississauga, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Glenn Schellenberg, Department of Psychology, University of Toronto at Mississauga, Mississauga, ON, Canada L5L 1C6; e-mail: g.schellenberg{at}utoronto.ca.
"Abstract
The idea that music makes you smarter has received considerable attention from scholars and the media. The present report is the first to test this hypothesis directly with random assignment of a large sample of children (N = 144) to two different types of music lessons (keyboard or voice) or to control groups that received drama lessons or no lessons. IQ was measured before and after the lessons. Compared with children in the control groups, children in the music groups exhibited greater increases in full-scale IQ. The effect was relatively small, but it generalized across IQ subtests, index scores, and a standardized measure of academic achievement. Unexpectedly, children in the drama group exhibited substantial pre- to post-test improvements in adaptive social behavior that were not evident in the music groups." wikipedia
Quote: EvenBobI can't tell if you're joking or being serious.
If you're serious, you can't really believe
that. Can you? You must be joking. We
have people on here with genius IQ's, you
think they got that way with the right social
factors? That if they had inferior social
factors, they would be just average?
Good one, you almost had me.
That's exactly what I think. I like to keep things simple. If you're born and stuck in a cage for your entire life, you won't become an intelligent person. Simple. You're saying you're white, so it makes no difference whether you're kept in a cage for your entire life or not, you'll still be just as smart as if you went to the best colleges. You're logic, under the simplest of tests, is absurd.
No one is keeping non-guilty people in cages. At least not legally any more in the U.S. To the contrary, trillions have been spent in just the law few decades to offer a vast array of opportunities, some of which actually require a modicum of work and/or responsibility.Quote: JyBrd0403That's exactly what I think. I like to keep things simple. If you're born and stuck in a cage for your entire life, you won't become an intelligent person. Simple. You're saying you're white, so it makes no difference whether you're kept in a cage for your entire life or not, you'll still be just as smart as if you went to the best colleges. You're logic, under the simplest of tests, is absurd.
Quote: KeyserSorry JyBrd0403,
Science says otherwise. "Intelligence is one of the most heritable behavioral traits."
I'm sorry if science is not always politically correct.
http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp2014105a.html
Hogwash, same reasoning I gave Bob. I guarantee you, if you get to control the genes and I get to control the environment, the people I want to be intelligent will be, and the ones I don't want to be intelligent, will not be. Environment 100% of the time.
So once again scientific research loses out to opinion.Quote: JyBrd0403Hogwash, same reasoning I gave Bob. I guarantee you, if you get to control the genes and I get to control the environment, the people I want to be intelligent and the ones I don't want to be intelligent, will not be. Environment 100% of the time.
Quote: SanchoPanzaSo once again scientific research loses out to opinion.
Simple tests, Sancho, Simple tests.
Let's see your real scientific tests. For instance, say with control groups and all that.Quote: JyBrd0403Simple tests, Sancho, Simple tests.
Quote: JyBrd0403If you're born and stuck in a cage for your entire life, you won't become an intelligent person..
Absolutely wrong. Ever hear the phrase 'we
stand on the shoulders of giants'. That means
we owe this modern era to men who were
born geniuses, and had no schooling at all.
They painstakingly figured out things all on
their own. No books to guide them, no
Google to look at. Step by step by step
they led us to to where we are now. You
are woefully unaware of who these giants
are and what we owe them. Shame on you..
Quote: EvenBobAbsolutely wrong. Ever hear the phrase 'we
stand on the shoulders of giants'. That means
we owe this modern era to men who were
born geniuses, and had no schooling at all.
They painstakingly figured out things all on
their own. No books to guide them, no
Google to look at. Step by step by step
they led us to to where we are now. You
are woefully unaware of who these giants
are and what we owe them. Shame on you..
And these geniuses chose to tell you, their chosen one, their story? Okay, let's hear it. I've got a couple beers left.
Quote: JyBrd0403If you're born and stuck in a cage for your entire life, you won't become an intelligent person.
Worse than that, if the neglect is early on it doesn't have to last a lifetime, just a critical early period. As per example Romanian orphans.
Brain scan
Quote:Until the 1990s, the orphanages of Romania were notorious for their harsh, overcrowded conditions. Those perceptions have been borne out in new research that finds growing up in such an environment can change the brain for good.
http://www.livescience.com/21778-early-neglect-alters-kids-brains.html
Quote: JyBrd0403You're saying black people are less intelligent because of their genetics, Bob. That's racist, or what I like to call moronic. You're saying black people are this or that because of their skin color, nothing else, just skin color. That's blatantly racist (and moronic), plain and simple.
So in effect you are saying that there are ZERO things that one group of people based on race are more predisposed to than any other race?
Heart disease is equal across all races? If you say it is not then you are a racist!
Lactose intolerance is equal across all races? If you say it is not then you are a racist!
Athletic ability is equal across all races? If you say it is not then you are a racist!
This can go on and on, but should be taken as demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. Just as to deny there is probably an intelligence difference among the races is absurd.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: KeyserIntelligence is a core construct in differential psychology and behavioural genetics, and should be so in cognitive neuroscience. It is one of the best predictors of important life outcomes such as education, occupation, mental and physical health and illness, and mortality. Intelligence is one of the most heritable behavioural traits.
Smart people always have smart kids. I'm
the only one here that noticed that? In
sperm banks, whose sperm are the smart
women seeking out? The kid HS dropout
in prison, or the doctor who finished 3rd
in his class. Why are they choosing the
doctor if genetics don't determine intelligence?
Again genetics does not work this way. The heritability of intelligence is somewhere between 20-80% depending on age and which studies you choose to believe. This means no smart people do not always produce smart children and that still leaves plenty of room for non genetic influences.
The give an idea on what the numbers mean we will look at a common example height. the heritability of height is between 60 and 80% so higher or the same as that of IQ so by your idea tall parents produce tall children and short parents produce short children. Thats not how that works I have an aunt that is 5'2" and an uncle that is 5'4" they have a kid who is about 6 feet tall or so.
You want to claim intelligence is hereditary you are correct. You want to claim blacks perform worse on IQ test then whites this is also something that can be shown to be true. You want to claim that genetics is the cause of this difference and you need some more evidence since the first two facts do not imply the third. As an analogy upgrading your CPU will make your computer more powerful, more powerful computers are better at running games, therefore upgrading your CPU will allow you to run games better this is false as rarely are games CPU limited. Similarly just because going with highest number 80% of the variability in IQ is explainable by genes does not mean that the difference between races is explained by heredity.
Now if you want proclaim that blacks are genetically inferior to whites you have 3 options say your a racist and admit you don't care about evidence I mean the white coats for the KKK weren't exactly lab coats. Spend a few years getting a PhD spend a few years on your postdoc and then spend a couple decades doing research and maybe that will support your theory. Or you have to wait till actual scientist who do work on this have more definitive results.
"Funny hats" could extremely easily be regarded as a broad-based smear. Some people label turbans, mitres and certain regal headgear as "funny," all in efforts to be mocking and dismissive of the strong significance those items may carry for the wearers and their communities.Quote: rxwineNot race. Kosher foods. Religion. & Funny hats. Not bringing trees in the house in December. You've ruled none of that out.
Quote: SanchoPanza"Funny hats" could extremely easily be regarded as a broad-based smear. Some people label turbans, mitres and certain regal headgear as "funny," all in efforts to be mocking and dismissive of the strong significance those items may carry for the wearers and their communities.
I am Jewish. I took rx's comment as 'tongue in cheek'. I do not think he had any ill will in the comment.
That is quite a distance from the claim of no genetic effects at all that has been posted here. Those who contend that hereditary factors have absolutely no influence or just a minor one on such human aspects are actually faulting the culture, traditions and overall abilities of given demographic or sociological groups. Looking at the converse shows just how far off base those assertions are, because in the same breath they carry the inescapable implication that, say, highly successful cohorts prosper and flourish precisely because of the culture and other factors of those groups and have little or nothing to do with breeding.Quote: TwirdmanYou want to claim intelligence is hereditary you are correct. You want to claim blacks perform worse on IQ test then whites this is also something that can be shown to be true. You want to claim that genetics is the cause of this difference and you need some more evidence since the first two facts do not imply the third.
"Tongue-in-cheek" comments have resulted in suspensions here, with one recent example coming to mind quickly. Not to mention the so-called "tongue-in-cheek" comments in the Sony e-mail messges.Quote: SOOPOOI am Jewish. I took rx's comment as 'tongue in cheek'. I do not think he had any ill will in the comment.
Yup, just ask Steve Jobs and Bill Gates.Quote: Dicenor33The only thing which counts is how much money your dad left you. It takes too many years for a start up if you begin from zero.
I can't wait to see the witticisms about talleisim and teffilin.Quote: SOOPOOI am Jewish. I took rx's comment as 'tongue in cheek'. I do not think he had any ill will in the comment.
Quote: rxwineDidn't you want to deprive us of the suspension list, the second highest form of entertainment on the site?
Yes, get rid of it for the exact reason that you cite. This is a gambling forum with some very good, very smart people. How sad that discussion of the suspension list is the top thread. How sad that Bob got suspended for a clever remark. If it had been an insult, he would not have had the suspension overturned.
"Um, yes they do. How do they not?"
"Well it's racist! Everyone is equal in my little world."
"Can you show that genes aren't the cause for intelligence?"
"Well if you have a white guy in one cage for 20 years, a black guy in another cage for 20 years, kill them both, I guarantee they'll both score the exact same on an IQ test!"
"Wait. What dafuq?"
Intelligence is based off of genetics (anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong).
Race and skin color/tone is also obviously based off of genetics.
However, there is no direct genetic correlation between skin color and intelligence inherently.
But it is important to keep in mind, people tend to mate with people of their same cultural background. Intelligent people tend to mate with intelligente people etc...
Also, people tend to mate with people of the same skin color.
So this can cause genetics in certain groups to get stuck around.
For example it is well known that less intelligante and less educated people tend to have far more kids than educated people (this applies to all races and groups). So this can cause a surplus of certain genes, and in communities that stay to themselves this can cause those genes to dominate even further.
So in summary there is no direct cause or effect of intelligance based off of skin color. But, genes in some communities may stick around if they don't intermingle with people outside of their community.
The best thing for America is for people to forget social stigmas and date and sleep with people outside of what they normally do to mix up the genepool (and also it will help people become more open minded and hopefully end racsism).
Quote: SOOPOOI am Jewish. I took rx's comment as 'tongue in cheek'. I do not think he had any ill will in the comment.
All hats are funny to somebody. Talk about
funny hats, watch the midnight mass from
the Vatican tonight. The pope changes hats
a few times and each one is more hilarious
than the last.
I love this one:
Quote: beachbumbabsYou didn't make a clever remark. You made a tired, condescending statement that is commonly taken as an insult, to a particular member of this forum. Goes back at least 20 years, to a comment in The Lion King (c)1994 (where it was a self-deprecating insult made by Scar), but I'd heard it before that, so longer.
www.urbandictionary.com/define.
Urban Dictionary
Used to describe simple (stupid) people who might be missing a few vital genetic components. In-bred Betty Sue came from the shallow end of the gene pool.
see also:
13 Words related to shallow end of the gene pool
above-ground gene pool•
gene pool•
hick•
hillbilly•
in-bred•
moron•
redneck•
retard•
septic gene pool•
simple•
stupid•
trailer trash•
white bread
So, please don't continue to insult the intelligence of the people on this forum by claiming you were not being insulting.
Actually, all these words are just synonyms for "racist." If you believe that any criticism of the black race is "racist" then you yourself are in fact a racist.
word racist around. The host asked her what racist
meant and she hemmed and hawed and said it was too
long a definition for TV. She had no idea what it
means, she just knows that all white people are
one.
Quote: AZDuffmanSo in effect you are saying that there are ZERO things that one group of people based on race are more predisposed to than any other race?
Heart disease is equal across all races? If you say it is not then you are a racist!
Lactose intolerance is equal across all races? If you say it is not then you are a racist!
Athletic ability is equal across all races? If you say it is not then you are a racist!
This can go on and on, but should be taken as demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. Just as to deny there is probably an intelligence difference among the races is absurd.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that your connecting things that have absolutely 0% to do with skin color, intelligence, morals, etc. with SKIN COLOR. That's what racism is. That's exactly what the nazi intellectual elites did. It's exactly what you're doing. And, I'm trying to point out that whether YOU want to stay politically correct or not, your viewpoint are by definition racist. Non racist would cite social and economic and other environmental reasons for differences in I.Q. Racist say it's because someone has different skin color. Your views are simply racist, that's the group that believes that.
AZ, Bob wouldn't answer the question, so I'll ask you and Keyser straight out. Do you consider yourself racist, since you base intellect and morals etc with skin color? Or do you guys just happen to be in the bag of science the nazi's (morons) believed, but you yourselves aren't racist, right? You just agree 100% with nazi's (morons) and Klansmen, right?
If that's the case, I'm just trying to point out that the views you side with are obvious propaganda, and don't hold up to the simplest of tests. There's just way too many variables with environment for genes to ever mean squat. I thought I would point out some obvious ones.
As for studies, I can cite the same studies you gave, and just not give a racist point of view. I would just say the differences are because of environment. Same studies, just no racist skew.
Quote: JyBrd0403That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that your connecting things that have absolutely 0% to do with skin color, intelligence, morals, etc. with SKIN COLOR. That's what racism is. That's exactly what the nazi intellectual elites did. It's exactly what you're doing. And, I'm trying to point out that whether YOU want to stay politically correct or not, your viewpoint are by definition racist. Non racist would cite social and economic and other environmental reasons for differences in I.Q. Racist say it's because someone has different skin color. Your views are simply racist, that's the group that believes that.
AZ, Bob wouldn't answer the question, so I'll ask you and Keyser straight out. Do you consider yourself racist, since you base intellect and morals etc with skin color? Or do you guys just happen to be in the bag of science the nazi's (morons) believed, but you yourselves aren't racist, right? You just agree 100% with nazi's (morons) and Klansmen, right?
If that's the case, I'm just trying to point out that the views you side with are obvious propaganda, and don't hold up to the simplest of tests. There's just way too many variables with environment for genes to ever mean squat. I thought I would point out some obvious ones.
As for studies, I can cite the same studies you gave, and just not give a racist point of view. I would just say the differences are because of environment. Same studies, just no racist skew.
I long ago stopped caring if people thought my viewpoints were "racist" as the word has become a rock to be thrown by people who cannot make an intellectual point.
That being said, I do believe there are intellect differences between races. "Skin color" is only one component of genetic makeup. But if you can look at how different skin color is between Europe and Africa just a few thousand miles away then an intelligent person must ask if intellect also differs. Why would genetics just affect "skin color?"
If people think that is racist then fine. Those people are sheep in a world with plenty of wolves. I try to be a sheepdog and not be prey in the herd.
Whether I had an effect, I was a big proponent of letting this thread stand. I had/have faith that the membership here is one who can handle talking about issues such as these, and said discussion could be done intellectually. I guess I'll announce now that I hope some effort is made to do so.
But "racism" often brings things to a halt. What is racism, anyway? It's a belief that our inherent differences amongst our different racial groups determine achievement. This is usually considered a "negative", and is offensive.
I've no problem with this, in most cases. But what drives me insane is this effort to homogenize every single person as if we're all hot off the Xerox. Men are not created equal. Men are not raised equal, and men do not become equal. We are all individuals with potential; some is met, some is exceed, and some falters tragically.
Why? That, I think, is a worthy discussion. It's interesting. But rather than challenge ourselves, we seem willing to simply smack a label on it (racist) and claim victory.
I'd like to prevent that. What Babs did to EB upon reopening the thread is along the lines of what I like to see in a debate. If you have a problem with a stance, argue the stance. Show the stats are outdated, biased, or unscientifically obtained. You think a point is racist? Destroy the point. Calling EB der führer in a mocking tribute to Hitler does little but incite. Discussion breaks down, debate ceases, and everyone just yells. That's no fun.
Keep it real. No one is equal. It is widely agreed that upbringing, cultures, and sociological exposure does much to determine what kind of person you will be. But does race not have a single effect whatsoever? It's an interesting thought. Can we not discuss whether it does or not without becoming hostile?
We can talk about the "feisty Italian". We can talk about "German tempers". We can talk about "passionate Latinos". And everyone laughs and gives a knowing nod. This is also completely racist, yet we accept it. Partly because it's "not generally offensive", and, I think, partly because there's something to it. If we can do that, surely we can accept that there must be some negatives as well, and can discuss them in a gentlemanly fashion.
Let's try, please. The baby Jesus thanks you ;)
Quote: AZDuffmanI long ago stopped caring if people thought my viewpoints were "racist" as the word has become a rock to be thrown by people who cannot make an intellectual point.
That being said, I do believe there are intellect differences between races. "Skin color" is only one component of genetic makeup. But if you can look at how different skin color is between Europe and Africa just a few thousand miles away then an intelligent person must ask if intellect also differs. Why would genetics just affect "skin color?"
If people think that is racist then fine. Those people are sheep in a world with plenty of wolves. I try to be a sheepdog and not be prey in the herd.
Okay, so you don't consider your views racist. Do you understand these are the same exact views held by racist at least. I mean you, of course aren't racist, but Nazi's (morons) and KKK guys, those guys are racist, right? Or maybe, you don't think they are racist either? The point is, I know you guys don't like getting labeled as racist, but I'm trying to explain when you base stuff solely on race, that's the word that's used to describe you. It's not a curse word I'm throwing at you, it's a description of who you claim to be. Nazi (morons) and KKK guys are actually easier to deal with, they just claim straight out they are racist and don't give a damn. Then you know what kind of morons (nazi's) you're dealing with.
As for differences in intellect between Europe and Africa, you should look at the societies those people lived in shouldn't you. But,that's the point, you look at race not environment, it's not logical. Genetics, can't do anything, but at best give you a start.
Quote: 1BBGreat post, Face. I hope Santa brings you a nice dog. How about a Belgian Malanois?
When I posted "German Shepard", the Mala is actually exactly what I meant. I just didn't think anyone would get it =D
Thanks for the compliment. Back to "Reverguson"...
Quote: FaceWhen I posted "German Shepard", the Mala is actually exactly what I meant. I just didn't think anyone would get it =D
Thanks for the compliment. Back to "Reverguson"...
Yeah, there is a lot of 30 pound Mala's running around, that's why I suggested a poodle. :)
I'm sure I stereotypes people for many reasons. Most on appearance, If your pants are a saggin and you look shifty, Ill proceed with caution, white or black. IF you're clean shaven and well dressed Ill be less cautious.
I don't hate anyone because of their skin color or sexuality. If I get along with someone of any race, Ill become friends with them.
If I tell a Black joke does that make me a racists?
Quote: FaceLot's of use of the word "racism" here. I'd like to address that.
Whether I had an effect, I was a big proponent of letting this thread stand. I had/have faith that the membership here is one who can handle talking about issues such as these, and said discussion could be done intellectually. I guess I'll announce now that I hope some effort is made to do so.
But "racism" often brings things to a halt. What is racism, anyway? It's a belief that our inherent differences amongst our different racial groups determine achievement. This is usually considered a "negative", and is offensive.
I've no problem with this, in most cases. But what drives me insane is this effort to homogenize every single person as if we're all hot off the Xerox. Men are not created equal. Men are not raised equal, and men do not become equal. We are all individuals with potential; some is met, some is exceed, and some falters tragically.
Why? That, I think, is a worthy discussion. It's interesting. But rather than challenge ourselves, we seem willing to simply smack a label on it (racist) and claim victory.
I'd like to prevent that. What Babs did to EB upon reopening the thread is along the lines of what I like to see in a debate. If you have a problem with a stance, argue the stance. Show the stats are outdated, biased, or unscientifically obtained. You think a point is racist? Destroy the point. Calling EB der führer in a mocking tribute to Hitler does little but incite. Discussion breaks down, debate ceases, and everyone just yells. That's no fun.
Keep it real. No one is equal. It is widely agreed that upbringing, cultures, and sociological exposure does much to determine what kind of person you will be. But does race not have a single effect whatsoever? It's an interesting thought. Can we not discuss whether it does or not without becoming hostile?
We can talk about the "feisty Italian". We can talk about "German tempers". We can talk about "passionate Latinos". And everyone laughs and gives a knowing nod. This is also completely racist, yet we accept it. Partly because it's "not generally offensive", and, I think, partly because there's something to it. If we can do that, surely we can accept that there must be some negatives as well, and can discuss them in a gentlemanly fashion.
Let's try, please. The baby Jesus thanks you ;)
Great post, FACE. I feel I shoud tell you something since I read your post where you told us you were half white and half Indian. My best friend, Brian, is half West Virginia hillbilly white and half Chipewa-Cree from north central Montana, I've listened to him thoroughly as he talks about white/Indian issues. He can go into quite poetic metaphors about the suffering his Indian ancestors sustained. And he can also go into quite loqacious speeches about his contempt for other tribes. He tells me that the Chippewa Cree always seen the fultility in fighting the white man while the other tribes didn't. He detests the Sioux, the Cheyenne, and he particularly despises the Blackfeet. He calls them savages. He says they were all just plain stupid for not adopting the white man's ways and instead started wars they couldn't win...and it got a lot of them killed.
