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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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July 16th, 2015 at 11:52:41 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

See, I disagree here. The left has made it an issue where if you say anything, right up to the word "illegal alien" that you will be called a "racist" if you are against it. We have what now, 200+ declared "sanctuary cities" in the USA? We have groups who sue to say it is "unconstitutional" to deny illegal immigrants welfare and schooling? There are groups that leave food, water, and directions for illegal immigrants during their trips. These are actions strongly supporting illegal immigration. Of people who love it as it meet their needs or goals.



It is happening because a portion of the population actively fights any efforts to stop it.



This is exactly what I am saying the left is doing. Oppose illegal immigration and open borders and you are called a "racist" or "xenophobe." Ditto happens, including here, when you point out crimes committed by illegals or the fact that they are driving down the labor rate for locals. Try to solve the problem and the reply comes back, "racist, racist, racist, racist, racist..........."



AZ,

And I would say to you that the Left is completely on the defensive, if that is their response (which I think is an unfair summation of what they're doing or saying). Both sides of the argument have painted themselves into simplistic soundbyte corners. Both sides have to drop the generalizations and mischaracterizations. This is not a simple problem, and there is no simple solution.

Personally, I would say that Trump is completely wrong about the generalizations of character and motivations of those coming from Mexico. Historically, those who make the effort to leave their homes for an unknown future have more imagination, gumption, and determination than the population they left behind. They have goals and aspirations and are willing to make them a reality, for themselves and their children. I can't say that's universally true about any group, any more than Trump can say those he's attacking are the garbage of Mexico, but that's how it works.

You look at the courage of the people who came to North America from Europe, then those who pioneered the plains, then settled the West. The Irish and Polish mass immigrations. The Cubans who, by the thousands, got into anything remotely seaworthy and much that wasn't after 1959. A hundred other examples, right up to those prime humans recently selected to colonize Mars among thousands of the best and the brightest willing to go. It's a culling that continues to repeat.

Yeah, there was the Mariela boat lift. And, yeah, Australia was first populated as a prison colony. It can probably be proven that Mexican criminals were encouraged to leave Mexico, perhaps specifically directed here. But I would argue the great majority of Mexicans coming north over a hundred years or more are good people with potential trying to improve their lives.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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July 16th, 2015 at 12:06:43 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

Libs want to find a way to get them to have citizenship because they feel that a large percentage of them will vote for them.

That is one hell of a craven reason to violate a number of extremely crucial laws of sovereignty. Almost as crass as selling fetal parts.
Gabes22
Gabes22
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July 16th, 2015 at 12:08:43 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

That is one hell of a craven reason to violate a number of extremely crucial laws of sovereignty. Almost as crass as selling fetal parts.


Politics is all about power and that would help consolidate power. As with many things in life............follow the money
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
rxwine
rxwine
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July 16th, 2015 at 12:10:04 PM permalink
It's always been a plot by France. While the Spanish and English fought, the French had a long term plan to bring us to our knees. An invitation.

Quote:

“Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:

I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
chickenman
chickenman
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July 16th, 2015 at 2:56:45 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

It's always been a plot by France. While the Spanish and English fought, the French had a long term plan to bring us to our knees. An invitation.

Yeah, and if not for us those puddle jumpers would be sprechen deutsch today.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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July 16th, 2015 at 5:39:40 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs



Personally, I would say that Trump is completely wrong about the generalizations of character and motivations of those coming from Mexico. Historically, those who make the effort to leave their homes for an unknown future have more imagination, gumption, and determination than the population they left behind. They have goals and aspirations and are willing to make them a reality, for themselves and their children. I can't say that's universally true about any group, any more than Trump can say those he's attacking are the garbage of Mexico, but that's how it works.

You look at the courage of the people who came to North America from Europe, then those who pioneered the plains, then settled the West. The Irish and Polish mass immigrations. The Cubans who, by the thousands, got into anything remotely seaworthy and much that wasn't after 1959. A hundred other examples, right up to those prime humans recently selected to colonize Mars among thousands of the best and the brightest willing to go. It's a culling that continues to repeat.

Yeah, there was the Mariela boat lift. And, yeah, Australia was first populated as a prison colony. It can probably be proven that Mexican criminals were encouraged to leave Mexico, perhaps specifically directed here. But I would argue the great majority of Mexicans coming north over a hundred years or more are good people with potential trying to improve their lives.



I understand the point you are trying to make, but today's Mexican illegal is not the European immigrant of 100-150 years ago.

First, back then you immediately lost your connection to the old world. Yes, some went back. But this was hard and expensive. When you got here, you could send letters back home and receive them, otherwise that was it. No visits, no phone calls. No choice but to assimilate ASAP. When your kids went to school it was learn English or take the grade over. While most still lived in a ghetto of old world alikes, said ghettos were fairly small geographically and no one culture could overwhelm the majority culture. None of this is the case today.

There was no human trafficking to get people over here. By being so lax on illegal immigration the Obama Admin is actually supporting the coyotes and their OC networks. Then when the get here and work being charged for the bed they sleep, food they eat, and air they breathe all at nice markups. Sure, Irish worked in bad conditions and paid for overpriced tenements, but there was no debt servitude post-1865.

Also there was not a basket of freebies for immigrants pre-1964. Today the get here and the poverty-industrial complex is more than willing to hand over loads of your money and mine to them. Immigration is valuable to the country in that you get an adult who need not be schooled or otherwise have money spent to be productive, they are ready to work. Give welfare and that flips the equation. You then get a leech on the system, of which we home grow too many already.

Finally, crime. Illegal immigrant crime is ignored by the media, but it is there. Mexico is as we know our number one source of all kinds of dope in the USA. Other crimes as well. Simply a drain on the system. But this is the last thing the lamestream media will report.

We cannot just "be nice." We need to protect our borders.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Gandler
Gandler
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July 16th, 2015 at 5:53:24 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I understand the point you are trying to make, but today's Mexican illegal is not the European immigrant of 100-150 years ago.

First, back then you immediately lost your connection to the old world. Yes, some went back. But this was hard and expensive. When you got here, you could send letters back home and receive them, otherwise that was it. No visits, no phone calls. No choice but to assimilate ASAP. When your kids went to school it was learn English or take the grade over. While most still lived in a ghetto of old world alikes, said ghettos were fairly small geographically and no one culture could overwhelm the majority culture. None of this is the case today.

There was no human trafficking to get people over here. By being so lax on illegal immigration the Obama Admin is actually supporting the coyotes and their OC networks. Then when the get here and work being charged for the bed they sleep, food they eat, and air they breathe all at nice markups. Sure, Irish worked in bad conditions and paid for overpriced tenements, but there was no debt servitude post-1865.

Also there was not a basket of freebies for immigrants pre-1964. Today the get here and the poverty-industrial complex is more than willing to hand over loads of your money and mine to them. Immigration is valuable to the country in that you get an adult who need not be schooled or otherwise have money spent to be productive, they are ready to work. Give welfare and that flips the equation. You then get a leech on the system, of which we home grow too many already.

Finally, crime. Illegal immigrant crime is ignored by the media, but it is there. Mexico is as we know our number one source of all kinds of dope in the USA. Other crimes as well. Simply a drain on the system. But this is the last thing the lamestream media will report.

We cannot just "be nice." We need to protect our borders.



Very well said. But I particular like you first point which is of immense importance and too often overlooked.

People used to come here and want to blend in, learn the language, work hard, support the country. Now people are more obsessed with their country of orgin.

100 years ago nobody would move here from Finland, demand the schools develop a curriculum in Finnish, demand welfare, then even with all of those benifits claim that they are being treated unfairly.

People who entered illegally have no right to complain about anything. It's like if I trespassed on some random property and started squatting there and then sued the owners for not having HBO...

People break in, and then are more concerned about what they can get for free than they are about making the country as strong and functional as possible. It's the polar opposite of the immigrants attitude in the 1910s.


We need to stop caring about being politcally correct, and say of you don't belong here then you have no rights to any benifits. Border security is important, but dry up the well, and nobody will steal from it. People only come because their is inventive to do so. Start requiring strict citizenship verification for employment, do benifits, for IDs, allow local and state police to enforce immigration laws without all sorts of restrictions, and people will stop coming very quickly, and the ones here will self deport.
Twirdman
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July 16th, 2015 at 6:09:03 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Very well said. But I particular like you first point which is of immense importance and too often overlooked.

People used to come here and want to blend in, learn the language, work hard, support the country. Now people are more obsessed with their country of orgin.

100 years ago nobody would move here from Finland, demand the schools develop a curriculum in Finnish, demand welfare, then even with all of those benifits claim that they are being treated unfairly.



This isn't true at all. Often times first generation immigrants didn't learn the language. Also Latinos are learning English faster then many other immigrant groups from the past http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2013/06/19/2179521/latinos-learn-english-faster/ . You are free to trot out the old canard about oh those immigrants will never integrate, but know that it was the same tired old argument used against every new immigrant group that comes along. The Irish will never integrate, the Germans will never integrate, the Italians will never integrate, the Chinese the Filipinos and the list goes on and on. Does your side ever get tired of being proven wrong when the group who will never integrate with the American culture is eventually taken into the fold and becomes a major part of it? After Latinos wonder what the next group that will never properly integrate into American culture.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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July 16th, 2015 at 6:31:46 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

This isn't true at all. Often times first generation immigrants didn't learn the language. Also Latinos are learning English faster then many other immigrant groups from the past http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2013/06/19/2179521/latinos-learn-english-faster/ . You are free to trot out the old canard about oh those immigrants will never integrate, but know that it was the same tired old argument used against every new immigrant group that comes along. The Irish will never integrate, the Germans will never integrate, the Italians will never integrate, the Chinese the Filipinos and the list goes on and on. Does your side ever get tired of being proven wrong when the group who will never integrate with the American culture is eventually taken into the fold and becomes a major part of it? After Latinos wonder what the next group that will never properly integrate into American culture.



The source looks like a very far left-wing site. Show all the studies you like. I will counter with demands for bilingual education and how many times we hear "press 1 for Spanish." Also the number of times I had to use translations and find Spanish-speaking notaries to get a mortgage done.

Maybe you can also explain the growth of Univision and other Spanish-language broadcasts if all these immigrants are learning english and assimilating at such a rapid clip?

Show all the studies you like, life on the street shows different.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Gandler
Gandler
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July 16th, 2015 at 6:34:48 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

This isn't true at all. Often times first generation immigrants didn't learn the language. Also Latinos are learning English faster then many other immigrant groups from the past http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2013/06/19/2179521/latinos-learn-english-faster/ . You are free to trot out the old canard about oh those immigrants will never integrate, but know that it was the same tired old argument used against every new immigrant group that comes along. The Irish will never integrate, the Germans will never integrate, the Italians will never integrate, the Chinese the Filipinos and the list goes on and on. Does your side ever get tired of being proven wrong when the group who will never integrate with the American culture is eventually taken into the fold and becomes a major part of it? After Latinos wonder what the next group that will never properly integrate into American culture.



I never claimed anything about any particular group.

I come from a family of immigrants who worked extremely hard to integrate. And, you would be hard pressed to find anyone more pro-American and nationalistic than me.

I don't care where you are from, if you want to be here as much as you claim then at least attempt to support the culture.

Many immigrants integrate extremely well, some of the most pro American people I know are first generation immigrants. However, some put their home country before where they are trying to move to.

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