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RonC
RonC
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
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July 14th, 2015 at 8:10:24 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I read your post a couple times, then again before I started typing. "They have undermined"? Who is they?



My position is that the ruling class on BOTH sides only care about money and power being in their hands--they handle it differently, but it is not good either way. It isn't like they want to do "good things" as much as they want to retain power. We've allowed them to be stay the ruling class by not firing them. If someone comes up with a movement to change things, they get labeled homophobic names ("tea baggers") by people who say they are for "equality" and the liberal-leaning folks that want change, too, move away form the movement so as not to offend anyone. I'm sure the same thin would happen if some liberals tried to fire Pelosi and Reid...

BOTH sides, the upper gang of them, are the same.

We don't fix it.
Gabes22
Gabes22
Joined: Jul 19, 2011
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July 14th, 2015 at 8:18:55 PM permalink
I can't think of it, but when the Iraq War got started and Bush still had astronomic approval ratings, I remember someone saying that Liberals are the party of Mommy and Conservatives are the Party of Daddy. When times are good and the economy is booming people flock to the liberals because they are the party of feel good, you can do have more of a free spirit, but when the crap hits the fan people flock to the Conservatives as they tend to distinguish better what is needed over what is wanted.

Liberals and Conservatives both wish to help the poor but they wish to do it in different ways. Liberals wish to have the state take care of them by taxing the rich, conservatives would rather the help be given through charitable organizations that they donate their money to, whether it be the church or other organization. Liberals view compassion by how many people are being helped by specific programs, conservatives measure compassion by how many people no longer need that help and can function on their own.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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July 14th, 2015 at 9:32:38 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I read your post a couple times, then again before I started typing. "They have undermined"? Who is they?



That particular part was referencing what Face was saying about Liberals, and what I was saying about how the word has changed in the hands of the semanticians with an agenda. IMO, as a moderate, this stuff was started (politically) in the modern era by Republican advisor Lee Atwater, and it took at least a decade for the Liberals/Democrats to catch up; they were too busy playing earnest defense and being caught off-guard/bewildered by the tactics. They've caught up some now, but one of the hardest things to find any more is an objective expert on anything; everybody's got an angle, everybody's being paid to say stuff, sometimes stuff they don't even believe themselves, everything has a spin. Tiresome. We're all being played and pandered to, all the time.

I think you're around my age, but Face and a lot of the younger guys on here only know one kind of politics; the nasty kind that started around 35 years ago now and ramped up about 22 years ago. (Not that there aren't other nasty politics from further back, but what I think is new is the brazen-ness with which people simply lie-lie-lie and if it gets heard and repeated often enough, it somehow becomes truth without basis.) So they don't know what a Congress looks like that can debate something complex on the merits, enact a law and move on. They aren't inspired to join the Peace Corps by a politician, or take up civic leadership because back then, if you had the skills, you served your community. FDR, HST, DDE and JFK were inspirational political leaders; who could match them since? LBJ was elected out of fear and grief. Watergate was a MAJOR shift in our country's perception in trusting and following a President. Ford was a nice guy with no plan or inspiration. Carter was a nice guy with no balls or leadership skills. Reagan was the biggest sock puppet ever elected until George W. came in and made him look good. George H.W. had great promise but had sold his principles to be Reagan's VP and never got his feet back under him as President. Clinton was potentially great but had several fatal flaws. And Obama has done some great things and some awful things but been surrounded by so much noise and hatred it will take a century for anyone to objectively judge his presidency.

We had Joe McCarthy in the 50's making wild accusations and fear-mongering. It worked for a couple of years, until people started standing up against his crap; that time the country came to the conventional wisdom that he was a bad influence.

Rush Limbaugh is our modern McCarthy, using many of the same tactics. He's been repudiated by the middle and left, but the country as a whole has not moved on from him. Keith Olbermann was doing some of the same stuff from the left, but the country repudiated him, including his base, so he's mostly gone the way of McCarthy. Now, post Citizen United, you've got any number of manipulators using huge money to game the system, including the Koch Brothers, Adelson, Soros, some Hollywood money, some big banking money, others. And that stage is set against a world so completely inundated with information that people vote on a soundbyte they heard, a factoid spewed by a commentator they like, or a hot-button issue that's largely irrelevant but so emotionally charged that people vote against their own best interests just to take a moral stand. Fear-mongering is the basis for nearly all political stances now, from Global Warming to Illegal Immigration; only the screamers change depending on the issue. And if you can't win based on scaring people into your POV, well then you demonize the other side. And we're back to Liberal being a curse word.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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July 14th, 2015 at 9:40:24 PM permalink
Liberal/conservative. Interesting Face.

I know in my own case, I have different views on different subjects, some more liberal, some more conservative. I know AZD will fight me on that as he seems to want to label me a liberal and make my decisions for me.

The fact is that in my own case, social issues, and gay marriage in particular has been the top issue for me, so I have a history of backing liberals in my adult life. Now that the gay marriage issue is over, I can focus on other issues and I really find myself taking a conservative position on many of them.

But there are a couple things that stop me from embracing the republican party. One is they appear to be a party of limitations, mostly whites, more male than female. With those demographic shrinking daily, you would have though they would have reached out to expand their 'tent'. There are many minorities and gays and women that hold conservative values, that would be a natural fit in the republican party, but instead of reaching out to try to expand their party, the republican response has been just the opposite. Instead of growing their side, they want to try to stop the other side from voting.

Republican backers on this site, will say that is not the case, but it clearly is. In state after state, under republican control, there have been new voter Id laws, cutting back on early voting, almost anything they can think of to make it harder for the other side to vote. Repubs will tell you these measures aren't aimed at democrats, but it is very clear it impacts democratic voters more than republicans. I just can't be a part of anything like that. This is America and people have the right to vote. Doesn't matter if you are voting the same as me or not, people have a right to vote and it should be as easy as we can make it, not as hard.

You win by having good ideas and expanding your party, not by limiting the opponent.

Second issue that I am more and more concerned about with republicans, is they are combining more and more religion into their politics. We are supposed to have separation of church and state. It's what this country was founded on, and I see the republicans heading in the wrong direction on that one.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to dislike about democrats too and I, personally am finding more and more things to not like about them. It really is way past time that we have more than 2 options in this country. And I am not talking about some protest vote, but a legitimate third and/or fourth parties. I fear that is just a dream. :(
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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July 14th, 2015 at 11:32:16 PM permalink
Trump - check
American Flag - check
Money - check
White House - check
WW2 Waffen-SS infantry - check

Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Joeman
Joeman
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
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July 15th, 2015 at 6:41:47 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

That particular part was referencing what Face was saying about Liberals, and what I was saying about how the word has changed in the hands of the semanticians with an agenda. IMO, as a moderate, this stuff was started (politically) in the modern era by Republican advisor Lee Atwater, and it took at least a decade for the Liberals/Democrats to catch up; they were too busy playing earnest defense and being caught off-guard/bewildered by the tactics. They've caught up some now, but one of the hardest things to find any more is an objective expert on anything; everybody's got an angle, everybody's being paid to say stuff, sometimes stuff they don't even believe themselves, everything has a spin. Tiresome. We're all being played and pandered to, all the time.

I think you're around my age, but Face and a lot of the younger guys on here only know one kind of politics; the nasty kind that started around 35 years ago now and ramped up about 22 years ago. (Not that there aren't other nasty politics from further back, but what I think is new is the brazen-ness with which people simply lie-lie-lie and if it gets heard and repeated often enough, it somehow becomes truth without basis.) So they don't know what a Congress looks like that can debate something complex on the merits, enact a law and move on. They aren't inspired to join the Peace Corps by a politician, or take up civic leadership because back then, if you had the skills, you served your community. FDR, HST, DDE and JFK were inspirational political leaders; who could match them since? LBJ was elected out of fear and grief. Watergate was a MAJOR shift in our country's perception in trusting and following a President. Ford was a nice guy with no plan or inspiration. Carter was a nice guy with no balls or leadership skills. Reagan was the biggest sock puppet ever elected until George W. came in and made him look good. George H.W. had great promise but had sold his principles to be Reagan's VP and never got his feet back under him as President. Clinton was potentially great but had several fatal flaws. And Obama has done some great things and some awful things but been surrounded by so much noise and hatred it will take a century for anyone to objectively judge his presidency.

We had Joe McCarthy in the 50's making wild accusations and fear-mongering. It worked for a couple of years, until people started standing up against his crap; that time the country came to the conventional wisdom that he was a bad influence.

Rush Limbaugh is our modern McCarthy, using many of the same tactics. He's been repudiated by the middle and left, but the country as a whole has not moved on from him. Keith Olbermann was doing some of the same stuff from the left, but the country repudiated him, including his base, so he's mostly gone the way of McCarthy. Now, post Citizen United, you've got any number of manipulators using huge money to game the system, including the Koch Brothers, Adelson, Soros, some Hollywood money, some big banking money, others. And that stage is set against a world so completely inundated with information that people vote on a soundbyte they heard, a factoid spewed by a commentator they like, or a hot-button issue that's largely irrelevant but so emotionally charged that people vote against their own best interests just to take a moral stand. Fear-mongering is the basis for nearly all political stances now, from Global Warming to Illegal Immigration; only the screamers change depending on the issue. And if you can't win based on scaring people into your POV, well then you demonize the other side. And we're back to Liberal being a curse word.



I'm in my early 40's, and I remember the echoes of civility in politics (or was it only a dream?!) I think a lot has to do (or at least coincides) with the Telecom Act of 1996. With restrictions lifted on how many news outlets one entity could own, it seems like we hear fewer and fewer distinct voices. I remember in the late 90's & early 2000's -- the infancy of current talk radio -- there was a lot of diversity in the programming. Certainly more moderate and independent commentators, and even a good amount of (Gasp!) non-political programming. Over time, the stations I listened to replaced those with more hard-line shows. And when I'm in other parts of the country, I hear the same programming, on stations owned by the same parent companies.

I think this has only served to divide people into one camp or another. I now see people whose thinking is shaped solely, seemingly, by these shows. Most independent thinkers I know (and unfortunately, there aren't too many of them) don't agree with everything their party or news commentator has to offer. I believe there is a lot of common ground between those who identify themselves as 'conservative' and those who may call themselves 'liberal,' but in this "You are either with us or against us!" atmosphere, IMO created by the media, we rarely see it.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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July 15th, 2015 at 10:43:50 AM permalink
Trump supporters ditch Macy's.

30,000 is not a huge number, but this was done without any push from some larger group. Takeaways are that the guy has some support this time, unlike previous "runs" that he had. What he is saying is resonating with large groups of people. Even the Democrat candidate should be wary of wire to wire support for illegal immigration, because many parts of the Democrat base get hurt by it.

The thing will be, does Trump expand on his issues. One issue will not cut it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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July 15th, 2015 at 10:51:11 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Trump supporters ditch Macy's.

30,000 is not a huge number, but this was done without any push from some larger group. Takeaways are that the guy has some support this time, unlike previous "runs" that he had. What he is saying is resonating with large groups of people. Even the Democrat candidate should be wary of wire to wire support for illegal immigration, because many parts of the Democrat base get hurt by it.

The thing will be, does Trump expand on his issues. One issue will not cut it.



Macy's made a business decision.
Hispanic buying power in 2015, 1.5 trillion USD
vs 30,000 cards.

Its a no brainer. Its about profits. You would think conservatives would applaud a business making moves to improve the bottom line.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
ams288
ams288
Joined: Sep 26, 2012
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July 15th, 2015 at 11:20:54 AM permalink
The article does not say that 30,000 people have cut up their Macy's card. It says they've received 30,000 complaints, many from people who have "claimed" to cut up their Macy's card.

I suspect when it's all said and done this will be a net win for Macy's.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
Boz
Boz
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
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July 15th, 2015 at 11:55:56 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

The article does not say that 30,000 people have cut up their Macy's card. It says they've received 30,000 complaints, many from people who have "claimed" to cut up their Macy's card.

I suspect when it's all said and done this will be a net win for Macy's.



Maybe something like this is what Sears/K-Mart needs to try and stay in business. Call all conservative white males racists and say you don't want their business. I'm sure many would flock from Walmart to cash their government checks there instead and waste them on trivial junk.

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