CasinoKat from NanoTech
First off, thanks Zcore13 for looking at CasinoKat more closely!Quote: Zcore13Wow! I just looked at the game more closely. I think there is trouble coming. The game uses a round cat very similar to the round circle of Pacman. The maze is almost identical to Pacman. And the cat chases things that are similar to ghosts.
To top it off, they use a Dr. Dre song in a marketing video for the games. $100 says they are infringing by using the music in marketing materials..
Someone better make some changes fast. Add this to the thousands of dollars worth of good free advice I've provided NanoTech.
ZCore13
Secondly, on the subject of copyright infringement, we're not worried.
In our opinion, the Pac-Man arcade game as-is would not be a good candidate for direct translation into the casino. There are three obvious reasons:
1. At $0.25 per play, it wouldn't make sense for the casino to operate.
2. The Ghosts in the game have learnable AI patterns, and can be defeated.
3. A very skilled player may play for a very long time (several hours until reaching the 'kill-screen')
We looked at the mechanics of Pac-Man, and adapted the classic maze-chase gameplay for the casino with three main differences:
1. We enlarged the playfield to fit our larger 39" 16:9 1080p monitor (and run the game at 120Hz)
2. We ensured that the average game time is about 30 seconds (longest is less than 90 seconds)
3. We introduced randomness - in the level generation and layout, in the enemy AI, and in the three released bonus prizes
Also, obviously, all of our graphics and sound effects are different. Our "Total Concept and Feel" is definitely inspired by Pac-Man, but is neccessarily different to succeed in the casino as a hybrid skill-based game.
CasinoKat does not violate any copyrights Namco has on Pac-Man just as Vegas2047 does not violate any copyrights on any pinball game created before it, just like Call of Duty doesn't violate any copyrights Electronic Arts has on Medal of Honor!
You can't claim copyrights to elemental game mechanics like using a 4-way joystick for inputs, or a first-person camera view and a 3D gun model.
Thanks everyone, for your thoughtful comments!
STV
The first two paragraphs are copied from the NanoTech Gaming homepage: http://nanotechgaming.com/index.php but you omitted the last paragraph:Quote: redjohnAt NanoTech Gaming, we are bucking the inside-the-box thinking of other gaming manufacturers. We offer products for a new class of gambler that is intelligent and informed and is seeking life changing winnings through more than a slim-to-none chance with a house edge the size of a state lottery system.
Our games disclose the payback percentage to the player and the payback percentage generally goes up with the bet amount. While other manufacturers misrepresent to players saying they are playing a "penny slot" and fail to disclose the true cost of playing the game, our information is all up front and center for the player who wants the best possible gamble for their money, as well as professional players who need no introduction for how to quit the 9-to-5 and tell the IRS they are pro and happily report their earnings each year because they are actually winning more than they could make at a full-time job.
Life changing winning, life changing winnings, life changing winnings.
"Established thinking has been running the show for far too long, and as gambling revenue has been falling behind, it's not without reason! Flatline or declining gambling revenue is a symptom of a gaming industry that has fallen asleep at the wheel."
That's exactly what we're saying. It should work the same way as poker. Ask Phil Ivey how this works for him.Quote: EvenBobSo NTG is saying a skilled player can
make a living playing their Kat
game? Does the casino know this?
STV
We've never stated we were or were not pursuing Namco's Pac-Man license.Quote: redjohnOK, you have not pursued licensing a direct version of Pac Man because ? ? ?
CasinoKat will do just fine without the Pac-Man license.
Speaking of the Pac-Man license, you should play Hipster Whale's Pac-Man 256! It's awesome!
STV
Quote: stv2049First off, thanks Zcore13 for looking at CasinoKat more closely!
Secondly, on the subject of copyright infringement, we're not worried.
In our opinion, the Pac-Man arcade game as-is would not be a good candidate for direct translation into the casino. There are three obvious reasons:
1. At $0.25 per play, it wouldn't make sense for the casino to operate.
2. The Ghosts in the game have learnable AI patterns, and can be defeated.
3. A very skilled player may play for a very long time (several hours until reaching the 'kill-screen')
We looked at the mechanics of Pac-Man, and adapted the classic maze-chase gameplay for the casino with three main differences:
1. We enlarged the playfield to fit our larger 39" 16:9 1080p monitor (and run the game at 120Hz)
2. We ensured that the average game time is about 30 seconds (longest is less than 90 seconds)
3. We introduced randomness - in the level generation and layout, in the enemy AI, and in the three released bonus prizes
Also, obviously, all of our graphics and sound effects are different. Our "Total Concept and Feel" is definitely inspired by Pac-Man, but is neccessarily different to succeed in the casino as a hybrid skill-based game.
CasinoKat does not violate any copyrights Namco has on Pac-Man just as Vegas2047 does not violate any copyrights on any pinball game created before it, just like Call of Duty doesn't violate any copyrights Electronic Arts has on Medal of Honor!
You can't claim copyrights to elemental game mechanics like using a 4-way joystick for inputs, or a first-person camera view and a 3D gun model.
Thanks everyone, for your thoughtful comments!
STV
Thank you for the response, as much as it may be avoiding the true topic. It doesn't matter what you think or don't think. What matters is what Namco thinks when they see it. And they will. Companies like that have full time people on staff doing google searches and much more to protect their rights.
Namco owns the rights to a circle chasing ghosts in a maze. They are known to pursue anyone who even comes close to that, including kids doing school projects... NAMCO Demands Takedown Of Pacman Game Created By Kid Using MIT's Scratch Programming Language
Namco wins consistantly even if the theme is similar. This goes back to 1982 when a game with a chomping diamond, chasing little aliens around a maze was put out. It costs Phillips some dough. Here's the game K.C. Munchkin
Like I said, nothing may come of it. But then again, something might. I would suggest changes. Including not using Dr Dre in advertising videos. You really should get some gaming people on staff. This kind of stuff comes up all the time for us.
ZCore13
The obvious multiplayer
Pac-Man Battle Royale:
The ticket-frenzy
Pac-Pot:
And the insane air hockey game
Pac-Man Smash:
What would Pac-Man look like in the casino?
CasinoKat!
STV
Quote: stv2049There were three compelling Namco machines we saw at last year's Amusement Machine Operators of America (AMOA) show in Las Vegas:
The obvious multiplayer
Pac-Man Battle Royale:
The ticket-frenzy
Pac-Pot:
And the insane air hockey game
Pac-Man Smash:
What would Pac-Man look like in the casino?
CasinoKat!
STV
No. Pacman in the casino will look like a licensed Pacman from Namco.
ZCore13
My nephew is 22 and works in the ND oil fields. He said Next time he isn't gambling as much and sticking to BJ and Poker.
I told him about this game. He said he wishes they had it last time he was in Vegas, He said nothing in the casino was as fun as he imagined, but this sounds pretty fricken cool.
He can't wait to come to Vegas and play it. He's already saying he will crush me after 10 plays. I didn't have the heart to tell him I doesn't have an install yet.
He knows something about value.
He did try to play "Good VP", did some "counting", progressive slots that were in the high 90's% and some poker.
I can imagine him and his friends would've played this a lot and took turns competing with each other. That would've been more fun for them, knowing they had a possibility to use skill and have an advantage.
He spent over 10K alone in less than 3 days his 2 friends spent about the same. About 75% of that was on gambling.
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I think people are under the impression that if you suck at pinball you will automatically lose at a devastating rate unless you choose auto play. IMO the pinball was very easy to play without much pinball skill. The fact that the ball is forced to move though bumpers it's almost certain a player gains points.
in 1982. I started a business in Santa Barbara
because I'd seen a similar business in LA.
I used a name similar to their name but
not the same at all. They eventually heard
about it (I was advertising on TV) and got
a letter from their attorney to cease and
desist or get sued. I showed the letter
to my lawyer and he barely glanced at
it and said 'change your name, even
if you win the lawsuit it will cost you a
fortune'. I gave the business to my partner
and left.
Time will only tell if he can pull it off, but if anybody can pull it off I think he can do it!
Quote: superrick
if anybody can pull it off I think he can do it!
Based on what, all the success with DI? He's
actually getting good advice here, which he
should have gotten before he invested dollar
one of his own money. Some lessons are
learned the hard way.
I might play a slot game that would make it easier to use my phone.Quote: MrVWhat about a game where you don't play against others?
I'm not tech-savvy, but there are games out there that people play on their iphones and ipads to amuse themselves.
Maybe something based on that: they'd already know how to play.
Quote: Zcore13Namco owns the rights to a circle chasing ghosts in a maze.
ORLY?
Quote: Dicenor33Why stop with skilled game, let's turn the entire city into a casino. The best plumber, more shit you clean, more money you make, you'll have a number on your back, you can bet on everyone and mark a favorite you have to wrap your ass in pink fur.
I'm impressed.
Quote: superrickOnce again Ahigh has everybody posting.The guy is a marketing genius for the Wizard! He always comes up with something to keep the forums going. Some may not think he is going to succeed, but he does a damn good job of keeping everybody posting!
Time will only tell if he can pull it off, but if anybody can pull it off I think he can do it!
Thanks for the support. Also, not kidding Dice, impressed! This is a sign you actually see among the blind!
"“CasinoKat” is a fast-paced, fun, furry gambling machine with classic arcade maze-chase gameplay. Inspired by one of the world’s most recognizable video game for more than 30 years. "
Quote: redjohnGee, the lawyers will love this over at Pac Man.
"“CasinoKat” is a fast-paced, fun, furry gambling machine with classic arcade maze-chase gameplay. Inspired by one of the world’s most recognizable video game for more than 30 years. "
With the previous two posts up here, what are your qualifications for your assertions? It sure sounds like you want me to believe that you are an intellectual property lawyer.
I actually have a book on copyright, trademark, and intellectual property law that I have had since at least 1989 that talks about the KC Munchkin case. I thought maybe you had the same book. There aren't just a ton of books on this subject. But the KC Munchkin case is a big case in terms of establishing the parameters of what is possible and not possible to protect with IP law.
What is the name of the law firm you work for if you are an intellectual property lawyer?
I would love to know more about your practice if you have one. And if you have real expertise to offer, I am more than happy to consider you to do work for me.
Something tells me, though, that you are pretending to be more qualified than you are. Is that possible? Even if you're pretending, you do want to try hard to get the right answers. In either case, I can probably help you. If you want to pretend, I can guide you to be more knowledgeable about pretending. And if you're really good at IP law, and you get different answers than my other lawyers, I would love to challenge them and I can contract you out for an hour or two of your time.
In either case, let me know if I can help you!
One person I talked to a couple of times is Chris Laporte. He had a case like the one above for copyright infringement with Namco. Namco made him take down the Pac-man looking "C" in Coins.
Did you already know about this case too?
The above image was taken from Trader Joes in LA with my cell phone yesterday. I found it to be funny.
I guess Namco doesn't know that Trader Joes is using "circles chasing ghosts" to sell cheese. (The ghosts are invisible sometimes you know).
So far I've seen people on NanoTech's side saying "in our opinion, no" and a bunch of other people saying "in their opinion, yes"
Does anyone have a legal opinion?
You know what I see in that photo? Pac Man about to eat two white dots.Quote: Ahigh
The above image was taken from Trader Joes in LA with my cell phone yesterday. I found it to be funny.
I guess Namco doesn't know that Trader Joes is using "circles chasing ghosts" to sell cheese. (The ghosts are invisible sometimes you know).
Quote: MathExtremistAt first, yes. But I was at the NGC meeting when the regs were passed, and after the vote Chairman Alamo told a story about how he and his MD friends play CounterStrike (or maybe it was Call of Duty) after work, over the XBox network. These aren't kids, these are adults with means. He said he was looking forward to seeing games like that in casinos.
My vision for the gaming floor of the future is "Dave and Buster's where you can win money", not just tickets to redeem for plastic spider rings. Put Temple Run next to Wolf Run and Temple Run will have a higher WPD. At least if it's done right.
Not a bad concept, the problem is developing a skill and taking the place for money. For example, down here in Niagara Falls they have the Great Canadian Midway. I used to take my daughter there when she was small. She would play games and then I would play the two skill games - FreeCell and a Poppit type game when the jackpots were 1,000 tickets (enough for a prize worth about $10). Because I will very skilled at the game I was able to take the games for the jackpots every time I went and I was able to have I am guessing a 100% return on my entertainment (considering the other games probably had a 10-20% return).
Now head-to-head games of skill would be interesting, where legalized betting of head-to-head or group play with the casino taking a rake (just like poker) would be cool. It's really done already at theme parks and fairs today. Just monetize it (Copyright boymimbo).
Skilled slots are already in place. It's called "Video Poker". Extending that concept to casino regular slots can be enticing.
Quote: Dalex64My question is - did NanoTech seek any legal advice as to whether or not they had any liability for copyright infringement?
So far I've seen people on NanoTech's side saying "in our opinion, no" and a bunch of other people saying "in their opinion, yes"
Does anyone have a legal opinion?
We are professionals who know about the law as it relates to video games.
http://www.abcnews4.com/story/30135264/nanotech-gaming-welcomes-richard-a-baker-to-board-of-directors
Read up about the legal action between Activision, Infinity Ward, and Modern Warfare II.
All rules go out the window when the money gets crazy.
Having Richard available (and his professional network as a resource) is a big asset when it comes to advice about things like this.
Richard and I talked about this plenty since he came to visit before G2E.
Anyone who thinks they have better advice let me know.
Otherwise, I think we have it covered.
Maybe I should copyright the square.
Quote: AhighMaybe I should copyright the square.
Prior art:
"Now the altar hearth shall be twelve cubits long by twelve wide, square in its four sides. "
Ezekiel 43:16
On the other hand, it's not like the basic shape of Pac Man was original either:
(published in 1976, 4 years before Pac Man was released)Nothing personal, I just like feeling like I own my data, and when I don't have the power to edit old posts, it's just one my little personal buttons.
That's also a big issue I have with the 2+2 forum as well.
Some have pointed out that I will frequently edit posts. You might consider it a programmer habit of wanting to just start by getting SOMETHING out there, but fixing it as I see fit once it is.
I'm not a hardware guy, I'm a software guy. And I do make mistakes and I like to fix them later.
Bet that as it may, I would love to see the pinball game in a vintage pinball machine. And CasinoKat in a stand up case like the original ( you know who )
In either case, GOOD LUCK.
My last word on different acquired tastes :
http://hotchickspickingupdogshit.com/
Quote: chaunceyb3...Management will readily deactivate player cards, take away your ability to earn comp dollars (even in poker), and downgrade you from Black Label to Red Label for vulturing or any kind of machine advantage play (also of course for card counting, edge sorting).
This is in Atlantic City, but it goes to the notion that casinos will willingly allow ANYONE to play at an advantage in the long run. I understand all the numbers presented as far as "they will always get theirs" and all of that, but I just don't believe that casinos would intentionally allow a game or a player that gave someone a consistent chance to play at an advantage without some negative consequence.
Games of skill with a chance of winning of 123% at any point will have a hard time gaining traction because the casino folks tend to understand math only one way--that is, I want my advantage over the player not just some of the time but all of the time. I realize some skill is required to get to 123%; I just don't think they will even want the player to have a chance at an advantage.
These are the same casinos that hassle counters even though counting brought them tons of blackjack players and most can't count well enough to gain a consistent advantage. They hassle dice setters and do things that they could avoid that appear to mess with hot shooters (fills, argue with customers over stupid crap, hassle a shooter after a short roll in spite of letting others do it all night, counting money two or three times as it is brought in, etc.) even though NO ONE can prove that there is a player out there playing dice with an advantage due to their roll of the dice. They even accuse players of being too good at games like Baccarat and reduce comps because they can't figure out why someone has a good run.
It isn't that the thought is bad, it is that the people you have to convince it is okay are not interested in giving players an advantage. Ever.
Quote: RonCIt isn't that the thought is bad, it is that the people you have to convince it is okay are not interested in giving players an advantage. Ever.
I started something that I don't think I can finish in an hour.
I may create a thread about CasinoKat on another forum to answer. If I do, I will provide a link.
Quote: AhighI started something that I don't think I can finish in an hour.
I may create a thread about CasinoKat on another forum to answer. If I do, I will provide a link.
The whole hour thing annoys me, but there is a way around it. Write the thing that will take over an hour in "Word" or something, look it over a few times, and then post it after you do your editing in "Word"...
I'lm also pretty sure nobody takes an hour to write a post, even the most long winded of posters that like to cite examples and drop names.
Although the new rule will affect a couple of posts like the casino chip one, which I hope they can find a solution to, it's a non factor to almost everyone else.
ZCore13
FIX IT!Quote: AhighI started something that I don't think I can finish in an hour.
LOL!!Quote: teddysFIX IT!
Quote: teddysFIX IT!
Hahahahaha! This is the exact time when we need a +1 or thumbs up.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Hahahahaha! This is the exact time when we need a +1 or thumbs up.
ZCore13
What about a ^5?
he can't go back and erase stuff he said a
week ago? Why would that even come up.
Has anybody called Namco yet to see if they
did indeed approve the Kat thingie? Why
would they, Namco hates competition.
http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackhat-seo/black-hat-seo-tools/327-forum-spam-bot.html
thanks for diverting the conversation about gambling to a conversation about SPAM.
Quote: EvenBobSo Ahigh doesn't want to post here because
he can't go back and erase stuff he said a
week ago? Why would that even come up.
Has anybody called Namco yet to see if they
did indeed approve the Kat thingie? Why
would they, Namco hates competition.
As an officer of a public company he probably is more worried about posting things that could get him in trouble with the SEC or investor lawsuits.
the whole deal of the skill gaming thing on the casinos part seems to be to get millenials in the door that don't enjoy watching some reels spin. If your machines can do that, and said millenials lose some money on your games and then move on to lose even more at the classic casino games, you are in business.
Try to get in touch with Derek Stevens while he is still working on the new Las Vegas Club. Convince him to put in a "skill gambling lounge" and see what happens. If it turns out the casino can attract a clientele that is more than just spillage from Fremont street, you might have a permament placement (and other casinos would likely follow suit).
I for one would play.
Great point. If NTEK's comments here could impact stock price in any way that appears to give an unfair advantage to the readers here, in either direction (buy or short), then there are some big issues with NTEK's comments here.Quote: zoobrewAs an officer of a public company he probably is more worried about posting things that could get him in trouble with the SEC or investor lawsuits.
Quote: teliotGreat point. If NTEK's comments here could impact stock price in any way that appears to give an unfair advantage to the readers here, in either direction (buy or short), then there are some big issues with NTEK's comments here.
Often people don't know when I am being insulted.
But taking something from me and pretending that I am not being slighted is insulting.
Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. You are definitely two levels above me when it comes to interpreting hidden motives.Quote: AhighOften people don't know when I am being insulted.
But taking something from me and pretending that I am not being slighted is insulting.
Quote: teliotHonestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. You are definitely two levels above me when it comes to interpreting hidden motives.
Sorry and not directed at you. What was taken was my ownership (ability to edit) my own content from years ago.
Quote: AhighSorry and not directed at you. What was taken was my ownership (ability to edit) my own content from years ago.
Why do you feel you own copy that you posted on a forum owned by someone else?
Does anyone else here feel that way?
Quote: RonCWhy do you feel you own copy that you posted on a forum owned by someone else?
Does anyone else here feel that way?
Nope.
ZCore13
Quote: RonCWhy do you feel you own copy that you posted on a forum owned by someone else?
Does anyone else here feel that way?
I formerly had an ability to edit my own posts. That ability is a form of ownership in my opinion.
If you misunderstand, please be explicit in your failure (to understand) before we proceed based on a false conclusion of what seems to imply some sort of other definition of ownership.
Context matters. And the context of your message could be interpreted as inflammatory.
Let us please not argue semantics here. I think you knew what I meant, frankly.
from any post, it seems that at a bare minimum, the poster should have the right to edit. Especially since this was a past practice, and no warning was given prior to change.
It's not a question of feeling. US copyright law is very clear on the question of ownership of original works of authorship: if you're the original author, the copyright is yours.Quote: RonCWhy do you feel you own copy that you posted on a forum owned by someone else?
Does anyone else here feel that way?
Further, and likely problematically for Zuga and the new owners, there is no ToS for this forum (that I can find) that grants a content license to WizardofVegas.com for those original works of authorship.
And though I'm not an attorney, it would seem that imposition of a new ToS granting a permanent content license would inherently come with the ability to opt-out -- and thereby remove all prior content offered up without such a permanent license. If I understand correctly, without an actual agreement that what gets posted stays on the site forever, Ahigh would be well within his rights to demand a takedown of all his content.
