MathExtremist
• Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 1:44:42 PM permalink
Win percent for table games is win/drop, not win/handle. Casinos can't report handle for table games. The house edge on baccarat is not 12.5%, it's 1%-ish. Also, baccarat tables have more than one player per table.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
RaleighCraps
• Posts: 2501
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 1:58:01 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

So a player puts in \$20 and plays 4 games.
At 30 sec a game, that's 120 games an hour.
That's \$600 an hour thru the machine.

The average penny slot player runs twice
that amount thru a machine, probably
more.

Quote: RaleighCraps

You're stating that the average penny slot player puts \$600 x2 through a machine per hour?

My wife bets enough lines so her bet is
\$1.25 a spin. 20 spins a minute, times
60min is \$1500 an hour. If she bets all
the lines it's more.

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

For CasinoKat, your example is \$20 in for 4 games and concluding \$600 an hour.

For your wife, you are giving her credit for all of her machine bets, not for cash taken in.
A spin every 3 secs for an hour straight? Game must not have any Bonus Features...
I highly doubt she could keep that pace up, but I'll give you those numbers.

She IS NOT putting \$1500 into the machine though. I bet she puts in no more than a hundo or two.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 15th, 2015 at 1:58:41 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Win percent for table games is win/drop, not win/handle. Casinos can't report handle for table games. The house edge on baccarat is not 12.5%, it's 1%-ish. Also, baccarat tables have more than one player per table.

I told you I was making crap up!

Thanks for the correction MathExtremist!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 2:41:44 PM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

I bet she puts in no more than a hundo or two.

Are you joking? I've seen her many times
go thru \$150 in 5 or 6 min on a penny
slot.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 15th, 2015 at 3:31:29 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: RaleighCraps

I bet she puts in no more than a hundo or two.

Are you joking? I've seen her many times
go thru \$150 in 5 or 6 min on a penny
slot.

\$150 seems like 'no more than a hundo or two'. You should tell her about CasinoKat! I'll bet she'll looove playing!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 3:51:10 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049

\$150 seems like 'no more than a hundo or two'. You should tell her about CasinoKat! I'll bet she'll looove playing!

STV

Like all women, she hates arcade games.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
sdel1001
• Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 15, 2015
October 15th, 2015 at 4:35:26 PM permalink
I would like to say that I was very impressed with both games at the G2E 2015 show when I played them. I do believe these type of skill games have a place on the casino floor. I have reviewed the forum materials and have at least a basic understanding of the math algorithm. My question is how does the game protect against a betting strategy whereby by the median score is kept approximately the same but the money wagered is biased towards to when the player has >100% RTP% ? For example lets say with the current database of scores on the machine, the median score which maps to 99% RTP is 10,000 points for pinball. A score of 15,000 maps to 90th percentile position and returns 120.6%. A score of 4,500 maps to 10th percentile and returns 77.4%. An expert player plays an equilibrium scoring strategy of betting \$10,000 and scoring 15,000. On his next game bets \$10 and scores 4,500. His net expectation is 10,000 * .206 - 10* (.226) = \$2,057.74. If he continues this over and over, the median score never changes in the database but he is making money at the expense of the casino even though the theo is 99%.
Ahigh
• Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 4:56:20 PM permalink
Quote: sdel1001

I would like to say that I was very impressed with both games at the G2E 2015 show when I played them. I do believe these type of skill games have a place on the casino floor. I have reviewed the forum materials and have at least a basic understanding of the math algorithm. My question is how does the game protect against a betting strategy whereby by the median score is kept approximately the same but the money wagered is biased towards to when the player has >100% RTP% ? For example lets say with the current database of scores on the machine, the median score which maps to 99% RTP is 10,000 points for pinball. A score of 15,000 maps to 90th percentile position and returns 120.6%. A score of 4,500 maps to 10th percentile and returns 77.4%. An expert player plays an equilibrium scoring strategy of betting \$10,000 and scoring 15,000. On his next game bets \$10 and scores 4,500. His net expectation is 10,000 * .206 - 10* (.226) = \$2,057.74. If he continues this over and over, the median score never changes in the database but he is making money at the expense of the casino even though the theo is 99%.

You can read the patent for the details. But the skill_alpha and bet_amount are modulated together to form a weight.

That's the part that makes the math system continuous instead of discontinuous with varying databases per bet amount or per skill setting.
aahigh.com
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 15th, 2015 at 5:09:07 PM permalink
Quote: sdel1001

I would like to say that I was very impressed with both games at the G2E 2015 show when I played them. I do believe these type of skill games have a place on the casino floor. I have reviewed the forum materials and have at least a basic understanding of the math algorithm. My question is how does the game protect against a betting strategy whereby by the median score is kept approximately the same but the money wagered is biased towards to when the player has >100% RTP% ? For example lets say with the current database of scores on the machine, the median score which maps to 99% RTP is 10,000 points for pinball. A score of 15,000 maps to 90th percentile position and returns 120.6%. A score of 4,500 maps to 10th percentile and returns 77.4%. An expert player plays an equilibrium scoring strategy of betting \$10,000 and scoring 15,000. On his next game bets \$10 and scores 4,500. His net expectation is 10,000 * .206 - 10* (.226) = \$2,057.74. If he continues this over and over, the median score never changes in the database but he is making money at the expense of the casino even though the theo is 99%.

Three points you overlooked:
1. This player isn't making money, but theoretical money. They still need to win their bet.
2. The casino isn't losing money, they are guaranteed their edge of 1% and the player's earning theoretical advantage is only at the expense of other disadvantaged players.
3. If I could guarantee and execute a 90th percentile performance whenever I increased my bet I would definitely be an expert player.

In our experience, even expert pinball players can get unlucky with a center drain or outlane drain. Since there's no nudging in the game there's nothing you can do other than reduce your risk and take carefully planned shots.

Thanks so much for the support, sdel1001!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 15th, 2015 at 5:15:57 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Like all women, she hates arcade games.

This is definitely some more 'made up crap'. Not all women hate arcade games. Some arcade games like Centipede and Pac-Man were actually more popular with female gamers!

Also, here's some not-so-made-up crap about videogame players: a recent 2014 study found that 52% of gamers are women!
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know

Back up your claims, EvenBob, it will certainly add to your credibility!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 5:46:06 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049

This is definitely some more 'made up crap'. Not all women hate arcade games.
STV

Wow, I'm starting to like you almost much
as I like Ahigh! I had a PacMan in the bar for
2 years and women would play it a couple
times never go back. The 52% you cite
are not physical games: 'the most popular
gaming device today is the smartphone,
and the most popular genres are puzzle,
trivia and word games.' This about the
opposite of what you're offering.

"It’s no secret that the gaming industry is a male-dominated environment and despite recent attempts to overturn this daunting stereotype, there is still a long way to go."
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
• Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 9:23:09 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

<citing data points for statistical conclusions>

aahigh.com
redjohn
• Posts: 72
Joined: Oct 14, 2015
October 15th, 2015 at 9:25:08 PM permalink
I am so lost. read the brochure and it looks like furry pac man. No problem. I have a \$100 bill on me. I put it in the machine.
Now what ? Is there a help screen that tells me what score I have to attain to win ? Or is there a bonus I can somehow qualify for ?
I mean what am I hoping to win ? How many games go I get for my \$100 ?
Is the machine bolted to the floor ? How much does it weigh if I decide to nudge it ? Can I slip the legs onto the tips of my steel toe boots for an edge ? Is there a TILT mechanism ? How long can I be expected to play bent over ? When I give my back a rest, is the machine reserved for me ?
And most important of all, where do I put my drink ?
redjohn
• Posts: 72
Joined: Oct 14, 2015
October 15th, 2015 at 9:28:12 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Wow, I'm starting to like you almost much
as I like Ahigh! I had a PacMan in the bar for
2 years and women would play it a couple
times never go back. The 52% you cite
are not physical games: 'the most popular
gaming device today is the smartphone,
and the most popular genres are puzzle,
trivia and word games.' This about the
opposite of what you're offering.

"It’s no secret that the gaming industry is a male-dominated environment and despite recent attempts to overturn this daunting stereotype, there is still a long way to go."

Lots of ladies play pool. Almost as many as men. Try and make a living off the female players if you own a poolroom. A friend owns a game boy business. I stop in to BS or get CDs resurfaced. I can guarantee his customers are 90% male at a minimum during the non Xmas buying season
redjohn
• Posts: 72
Joined: Oct 14, 2015
October 15th, 2015 at 9:35:39 PM permalink
Why Pac Man ? Why not copy the best selling pinball machine ?
Ahigh
• Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 9:39:14 PM permalink
Quote: redjohn

Why Pac Man ? Why not copy the best selling pinball machine ?

The female demographic and/or making a game that girls are interested in is probably the biggest reason why we chose a maze-game.
aahigh.com
redjohn
• Posts: 72
Joined: Oct 14, 2015
October 15th, 2015 at 10:01:24 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

The female demographic and/or making a game that girls are interested in is probably the biggest reason why we chose a maze-game.

Makes sense if think women really like pinball, want to bend over a machine, will cross-over from penny slots, etc. I would prefer the Adamms family.

Still don't know where I can put my drink. Haha
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 15th, 2015 at 10:40:36 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

The female demographic and/or making a game that girls are interested in is probably the biggest reason why we chose a maze-game.

So you think women, who are far less competitive
than men, are going to figure your game out and
spend a ton to get skilled at it, so they can maybe
win once in awhile? Does that really seem likely
to you? Women play slots because it offers a
big bang jackpot that can happen at any time,
and it takes no skill at all. Your machines don't
offer that.

My wife won \$4000 on a slot once, on a \$2 bet.
That's why women play machines.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
• Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 12:49:31 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

So you think women, who are far less competitive
than men, are going to figure your game out and
spend a ton to get skilled at it, so they can maybe
win once in awhile? Does that really seem likely
to you? Women play slots because it offers a
big bang jackpot that can happen at any time,
and it takes no skill at all. Your machines don't
offer that.

My wife won \$4000 on a slot once, on a \$2 bet.
That's why women play machines.

Do you make broad sweeping generalizations about everything?

I can imagine how frustrating things must be for some painters using such a broad stroke all of the time.

Details matter.

Your observations and suggestions do have a "style" however. I will give you that much.

Just not much reality. Plenty of "spunk" though.
aahigh.com
Ahigh
• Posts: 5197
Joined: May 19, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 12:54:15 AM permalink
Quote: redjohn

Makes sense if think women really like pinball, want to bend over a machine, will cross-over from penny slots, etc. I would prefer the Adamms family.

Still don't know where I can put my drink. Haha

Maze game not pinball.

Pinball was made for high limit and was designed aesthetically to be placed in a high limit table gaming area.

Specifically the Las Vegas Venetian's Salon area.

http://www.nanotechgaming.com/vegas2047.pdf

But again, the topic here is CasinoKat -- wrt goal to our attempt to make a game that appeals to females.

And we were absolutely inspired by the fact that Iwatani-san set out to satisfy female players (a GRAND goal at this time especially) with the original design.

We set out to preserve those characteristics and design principles to satisfy those same constraints.

I love the Pac-Man shape, but we couldn't use that because of copyright.

But we used eyes.

We used mazes.

But ultimately, the inspiration to create a game that is designed specifically to ENABLE females to engage with it was a goal.

We are very proud of what we have accomplished. And I am EXTREMELY proud of the entire NanoTech team!
aahigh.com
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22290
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
October 16th, 2015 at 2:49:15 AM permalink
My GF said would definitely try this as long as she felt her money wasn't entirely riding on her maze game skill. WE know it isn't, but when someone is first walking up to this machine they may not understand that. I'm going to make up some crap and say 90% of slot players don't read the help screen.

I noticed there is a light bulls eye type of light ring overlapping the maze, it's very distracting. My GF said the video almost made her dizzy. Hopefully its different when you're closer and actually playing it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Zcore13
• Posts: 3814
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
October 16th, 2015 at 5:43:50 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Do you make broad sweeping generalizations about everything?

I can imagine how frustrating things must be for some painters using such a broad stroke all of the time.

Details matter.

Your observations and suggestions do have a "style" however. I will give you that much.

Just not much reality. Plenty of "spunk" though.

I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 7:07:18 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Do you make broad sweeping generalizations about everything?
.

I asked a very specific question. Do you think
mostly non competitive women are going to
invest a lot in a skill machine that has no
jackpot payouts like they're used to on slot
machines. Most slot players are women for
a reason. They don't have to think while
playing, no skill is required, and they
have the possibility on every single spin
of a huge payout relative to their bet. Your
machine offers none of that.

You do realize that people, men and women,
play slots for the possibility of winning huge
amounts, right? Everybody keeps saying there
is a gigantic market just waiting for skill based
games. I don't believe that for a minute, I
think the opposite is true. It's brain dead games
the public wants, all the evidence points to it.

I wasn't generalizing at all.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
RonC
• Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 7:21:14 AM permalink
To EB's point, the guy who sits next to me in the office has a wife who loves slot machines. He asked her how she knows when she wins or loses. her answer? The machine tells me. She doesn't even bother to learn what all the lines and patterns are about.

I know you are trying to get younger people who are pinball/video game players involved in playing the new type of games. My question is this--does the casino's current customer base have enough of that type of players to make these products viable or are you going to have do even more work and actually get the people you want into the casino to become players?
MrV
• Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 7:50:54 AM permalink
Perhaps it's time to think outside the box.

A win-win would be to develop and market a game that gamers like to play at home, and also a version of that same game which they can play in a casino for cash.

I've no idea as to what that game might be, but getting them used to it at home first would lead to seamless casino play.
"What, me worry?"
wellwellwell
• Posts: 154
Joined: Jun 17, 2015
October 16th, 2015 at 8:36:46 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

A win-win would be to develop and market a game that gamers like to play at home, and also a version of that same game which they can play in a casino for cash.
.

Hate to tell you MrV but the at home/internet gamers are already playing those games for cash amongst themselves.

My sixteen year-old son plays "wagers" all the time individually and in teams in some game called CS:GO......what that stands for I have no idea, but he is betting real money over the internet. We also travel all over the country to MLG and UMG events where he plays in Call of Duty Tournaments. Every event you can see guys take over a couple of playstations and you see a couple hundred bucks on the table between them and the winner takes all. Why do these guys need to go to a casino?

Regarding the gender issue previously discussed, at these MLG and UMG events where there are probably 1000 entrants, 99% are male. A few girlfriends hang around, but there aren't even many of those. What young woman wants a nerd boyfriend that sits in his room 12 hours a day staring at a computer screen?
Zcore13
• Posts: 3814
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
October 16th, 2015 at 8:49:15 AM permalink
Quote: wellwellwell

Hate to tell you MrV but the at home/internet gamers are already playing those games for cash amongst themselves.

My sixteen year-old son plays "wagers" all the time individually and in teams in some game called CS:GO......what that stands for I have no idea, but he is betting real money over the internet. We also travel all over the country to MLG and UMG events where he plays in Call of Duty Tournaments. Every event you can see guys take over a couple of playstations and you see a couple hundred bucks on the table between them and the winner takes all. Why do these guys need to go to a casino?

Regarding the gender issue previously discussed, at these MLG and UMG events where there are probably 1000 entrants, 99% are male. A few girlfriends hang around, but there aren't even many of those. What young woman wants a nerd boyfriend that sits in his room 12 hours a day staring at a computer screen?

And some of the better skill games at G2E are using the same technology. They are using XBOX One quality graphics and controllers in their games. NanoTech is introducing 30 year old concepts.

Skill based games on the casino floor will be very limited. Those that produce quality products that are easy to learn and play and make as much or more than the slot they are replacing will get the floor space.

The more likely scenario will be a room of skill based games like a Peter Piper Pizza or KidsQuest but made for adults.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
MrV
• Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 9:13:24 AM permalink
What about a game where you don't play against others?

I'm not tech-savvy, but there are games out there that people play on their iphones and ipads to amuse themselves.

Maybe something based on that: they'd already know how to play.
"What, me worry?"
MathExtremist
• Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 9:14:40 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

And some of the better skill games at G2E are using the same technology. They are using XBOX One quality graphics and controllers in their games. NanoTech is introducing 30 year old concepts.

Skill based games on the casino floor will be very limited. Those that produce quality products that are easy to learn and play and make as much or more than the slot they are replacing will get the floor space.

The more likely scenario will be a room of skill based games like a Peter Piper Pizza or KidsQuest but made for adults.

At first, yes. But I was at the NGC meeting when the regs were passed, and after the vote Chairman Alamo told a story about how he and his MD friends play CounterStrike (or maybe it was Call of Duty) after work, over the XBox network. These aren't kids, these are adults with means. He said he was looking forward to seeing games like that in casinos.

My vision for the gaming floor of the future is "Dave and Buster's where you can win money", not just tickets to redeem for plastic spider rings. Put Temple Run next to Wolf Run and Temple Run will have a higher WPD. At least if it's done right.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Zcore13
• Posts: 3814
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
October 16th, 2015 at 9:28:51 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

What about a game where you don't play against others?

I'm not tech-savvy, but there are games out there that people play on their iphones and ipads to amuse themselves.

Maybe something based on that: they'd already know how to play.

Yes, you don't play against another person in the games I am envisioning. You'll be playing a real life war simulation like Battlefield or Call of Duty and your win/loss will be based on how many kills you get. Or a zombie game where the longer you survive the better chance you have to win.

The actual games that are going to make the floor and be successful for a fair amount of time aren't invented yet. But they are coming...

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 16th, 2015 at 10:18:55 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Yes, you don't play against another person in the games I am envisioning. You'll be playing a real life war simulation like Battlefield or Call of Duty and your win/loss will be based on how many kills you get. Or a zombie game where the longer you survive the better chance you have to win.

The actual games that are going to make the floor and be successful for a fair amount of time aren't invented yet. But they are coming...

ZCore13

Now you're on the right track, Zcore13!

This is exactly what the NanoTech Advantage system is designed to do.

The beauty is that our math model is game-agnostic and can be added onto ANY game of skill that gives you a numerical score.

Thanks for the support, buddy! It's great to see you come to that realization on your own!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
• Posts: 2226
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
October 16th, 2015 at 10:37:51 AM permalink
Quote: stv2049

Thanks for the support, buddy! It's great to see you come to that realization on your own!STV

I don't have any skin in this discussion but have been reading along......why do you continue to use this line of sarcasm? It was funny maybe once to suggest that Z or EB were "supporting" the cause, but really it sounds pretty lame and discrediting to your efforts as you continue to use it.
Zcore13
• Posts: 3814
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
October 16th, 2015 at 10:39:32 AM permalink
Quote: stv2049

Quote: Zcore13

Yes, you don't play against another person in the games I am envisioning. You'll be playing a real life war simulation like Battlefield or Call of Duty and your win/loss will be based on how many kills you get. Or a zombie game where the longer you survive the better chance you have to win.

The actual games that are going to make the floor and be successful for a fair amount of time aren't invented yet. But they are coming...

ZCore13

Now you're on the right track, Zcore13!

This is exactly what the NanoTech Advantage system is designed to do.

The beauty is that our math model is game-agnostic and can be added onto ANY game of skill that gives you a numerical score.

Thanks for the support, buddy! It's great to see you come to that realization on your own!

STV

I'm way ahead of you guys. Been in gaming and studying this stuff for years. Your math will be insignificant in the gaming world. Don't forget, I'm on the inside, while you are on the outside looking in.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 11:12:48 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

does the casino's current customer base have enough of that type of players to make these products viable

Heck no, that's the point of this discussion.
For some reason they believe the slot people
who came to the casino not to think at all,
will rack their tiny brains in excitement over
trying (in vain) to learn a 30 year old arcade
game. First they have to convince a casino
that this is gonna happen. It's like climbing
Everest with no gear.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 11:14:38 AM permalink

It was funny maybe once to suggest that Z or EB were "supporting" the cause, but really it sounds pretty lame and discrediting to your efforts as you continue to use it.

I think it's funny. I imagine you can't even
read his exclamation point key anymore,
he punches it so savagely.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
beachbumbabs
• Posts: 14267
Joined: May 21, 2013
October 16th, 2015 at 1:03:11 PM permalink
Hey, Ahigh/STV:

You guys might specifically try getting a placement at the new Lavo club room (Venetian/Palazzo). They announced it yesterday - marketing it to clubbers as a place to start their night with a hi-roller experience - tables plus drinks plus dj. Just a thought....
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 16th, 2015 at 1:59:45 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Hey, Ahigh/STV:

You guys might specifically try getting a placement at the new Lavo club room (Venetian/Palazzo). They announced it yesterday - marketing it to clubbers as a place to start their night with a hi-roller experience - tables plus drinks plus dj. Just a thought....

Thanks for the idea, beachbumbabs. I did get a chance to visit LAVO during a G2E-sponsored event. Cool hipster decor, like if a millennial owned a house with a library in it, old typewriters, and DJ Dig Dug mixing laid-back breakbeats. Perfect location for a pair of Vegas2047 and CasinoKat machines.

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
Dicenor33
• Posts: 624
Joined: Aug 28, 2013
October 16th, 2015 at 2:06:08 PM permalink
How about stock trading on a floor and you can wrap monitors in fur to make'em more attractive.
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 16th, 2015 at 2:55:18 PM permalink
Quote: Dicenor33

How about stock trading on a floor and you can wrap monitors in fur to make'em more attractive.

I have no idea what this means, but you can wrap anything in CasinoKat fur and make it more attractive!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
AxelWolf
• Posts: 22290
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
October 16th, 2015 at 3:02:07 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049

I have no idea what this means, but you can wrap anything in CasinoKat fur and make it more attractive!

STV

He probably meant there's to many stats and confusing numbers going on.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
bloodoil
• Posts: 22
Joined: Oct 12, 2015
October 16th, 2015 at 3:47:57 PM permalink
AHIGH. You and your team must have balls bigger than King Kong to persue this venture.

Be that as it may, I see major problems. One was raised earlier. Betting \$100 to win S10. One of your team replied that the Wiz made this sort of bet. And I am sure Mikd did. Do you think anyone else who post here has done the same. Especially on a regular basis.
This seems contrary to the model that casino, horse race, nfl parleys, etc are based upon. Betting \$10 to win \$100.

Someone else we posted about someone betting \$100,000 on a hand of baccarat and envisioned the dame thing happening with this game. Someone does not understsnd the culture and history behind those bets. Baccarat players are not betting \$100,000 to win \$10,000. There is only one pinball manufacturer in the entire world. I seriously doubt Asian high rollers will be attracted to this game.

An even bigger concern is branding . I can see someone wanting to try Pac Man, or telling
someone it is at a casino. But saying try kasino cat, it's sorta like Pac Man, not exactly
marketing to higher end consumers.

I don't even remember the name of you pinball game.

oh I forgot. Beautiful Babs suggested placing in a party pit. How will you protect a player being josted, accidentally or delibaretly , bu another party goer. You know it will happen.
Zcore13
• Posts: 3814
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
October 16th, 2015 at 4:05:37 PM permalink
Quote: bloodoil

AHIGH. You and your team must have balls bigger than King Kong to persue this venture.

Be that as it may, I see major problems. One was raised earlier. Betting \$100 to win S10. One of your team replied that the Wiz made this sort of bet. And I am sure Mikd did. Do you think anyone else who post here has done the same. Especially on a regular basis.
This seems contrary to the model that casino, horse race, nfl parleys, etc are based upon. Betting \$10 to win \$100.

Someone else we posted about someone betting \$100,000 on a hand of baccarat and envisioned the dame thing happening with this game. Someone does not understsnd the culture and history behind those bets. Baccarat players are not betting \$100,000 to win \$10,000. There is only one pinball manufacturer in the entire world. I seriously doubt Asian high rollers will be attracted to this game.

An even bigger concern is branding . I can see someone wanting to try Pac Man, or telling
someone it is at a casino. But saying try kasino cat, it's sorta like Pac Man, not exactly
marketing to higher end consumers.

I don't even remember the name of you pinball game.

oh I forgot. Beautiful Babs suggested placing in a party pit. How will you protect a player being josted, accidentally or delibaretly , bu another party goer. You know it will happen.

There might even be an issue with FurryKat being too close to pacman. Namco is VERY protective of their patents surrounding the pacman game. They could put the whole Kat company into financial doom (actual I think it's already there since it has not income, high expenses and issues with financial reporting) with just one lawsuit.

This is what makes penny stock companies so risky. They've usually got big ideas and not a lot of experience or rounded knowledge to make it work.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 4:23:03 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

There might even be an issue with FurryKat being too close to pacman. Namco is VERY protective of their patents surrounding the pacman game

Wait a minute. NanoTech Gaming doesn't have
permission with Namco to make an obvious
PacMan clone?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Zcore13
• Posts: 3814
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
October 16th, 2015 at 4:27:46 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Wait a minute. NanoTech Gaming doesn't have
permission with Namco to make an obvious
PacMan clone?

I would think not, but that doesn't mean it's in violation. Namco has a patent on a round ball is figure chasing three or four ghosts in a maze. I think all three of those are separate patents. , then there could be trouble. I am definitely not a patent expert. But it only takes Namco thinking there is a violation to put some serious financial stress on a company with attorneys fees.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Zcore13
• Posts: 3814
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
October 16th, 2015 at 4:58:56 PM permalink
Wow! I just looked at the game more closely. I think there is trouble coming. The game uses a round cat very similar to the round circle of Pacman. The maze is almost identical to Pacman. And the cat chases things that are similar to ghosts.

To top it off, they use a Dr. Dre song in a marketing video for the games. \$100 says they are infringing by using the music in marketing materials..

Someone better make some changes fast. Add this to the thousands of dollars worth of good free advice I've provided NanoTech.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
redjohn
• Posts: 72
Joined: Oct 14, 2015
October 16th, 2015 at 5:46:39 PM permalink
UH-OH

Total Concept and Feel Approach

The court doesn't dissect a work into "protected" and "unprotected." Instead, the court reasons that a work should be looked at as a combination of its parts. This naturally favors plantiffs because they can essentially argue that all sorts of "facts," "phrases," "stock characters," and especially "ideas" that aren't normally protectable can be protected.

Under this analysis, a Pacman clone may face more of a challenge.

Even though a game's concept/gameplay isn't protected by the letter of copyright law, in practice because of these differing approaches, and the difficulty in identifying exactly what in a video game is an “idea” or “expression” for purposes of copyright law, you copy a game's concept and overall feel at your own risk.

redjohn
• Posts: 72
Joined: Oct 14, 2015
October 16th, 2015 at 6:37:49 PM permalink
At NanoTech Gaming, we are bucking the inside-the-box thinking of other gaming manufacturers. We offer products for a new class of gambler that is intelligent and informed and is seeking life changing winnings through more than a slim-to-none chance with a house edge the size of a state lottery system.

Our games disclose the payback percentage to the player and the payback percentage generally goes up with the bet amount. While other manufacturers misrepresent to players saying they are playing a "penny slot" and fail to disclose the true cost of playing the game, our information is all up front and center for the player who wants the best possible gamble for their money, as well as professional players who need no introduction for how to quit the 9-to-5 and tell the IRS they are pro and happily report their earnings each year because they are actually winning more than they could make at a full-time job.

Life changing winning, life changing winnings, life changing winnings.
EvenBob
• Posts: 28777
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
October 16th, 2015 at 6:48:25 PM permalink
Quote: redjohn

as well as professional players who need no introduction for how to quit the 9-to-5 and tell the IRS they are pro and happily report their earnings each year because they are actually winning more than they could make at a full-time job.
.

So NTG is saying a skilled player can
make a living playing their Kat
game? Does the casino know this?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stv2049
• Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 2, 2014
October 16th, 2015 at 8:21:15 PM permalink
Quote: bloodoil

AHIGH. You and your team must have balls bigger than King Kong to persue this venture.

Close. Bigger than Donkey Kong.

Quote: bloodoil

Be that as it may, I see major problems. One was raised earlier. Betting \$100 to win S10. One of your team replied that the Wiz made this sort of bet. And I am sure Mikd did. Do you think anyone else who post here has done the same. Especially on a regular basis.
This seems contrary to the model that casino, horse race, nfl parleys, etc are based upon. Betting \$10 to win \$100.

We allow the player to select their BET amount and WIN amount independently, and show them the average probability of winning that bet with the house edge factored in. With a house edge of ZERO, betting \$100 to win \$10 gives a probability of 90.91% (100/110); betting \$10 to win \$100 gives a probability of 9.09% (10/110). We're not dictating how the player should bet. The player will choose values that they're comfortable with.

Quote: bloodoil

Someone else we posted about someone betting \$100,000 on a hand of baccarat and envisioned the dame thing happening with this game. Someone does not understsnd the culture and history behind those bets. Baccarat players are not betting \$100,000 to win \$10,000. There is only one pinball manufacturer in the entire world. I seriously doubt Asian high rollers will be attracted to this game.

We understand the math behind those bets. Baccarat has one of the lowest house edges of all casino games for an (almost) even money bet. It doesn't matter how much our players want to win. If operated properly, we can offer a better value for their bet. We seriously believe that there are plenty of arrogant, boastful, highly-skilled Western high rollers who will be attracted to our games. We're also good friends with the folks at Stern Pinball and hold them in extremely high regard, but you forgot about Jersey Jack.

Quote: bloodoil

An even bigger concern is branding . I can see someone wanting to try Pac Man, or telling
someone it is at a casino. But saying try kasino cat, it's sorta like Pac Man, not exactly
marketing to higher end consumers.

We believe that higher end customers will look for value for their money, not a silly brand.

Quote: bloodoil

I don't even remember the name of you pinball game.

Vegas2047 http://nanotechgaming.com/vegas2047.pdf

Quote: bloodoil

oh I forgot. Beautiful Babs suggested placing in a party pit. How will you protect a player being josted, accidentally or delibaretly , bu another party goer. You know it will happen.

Beautiful beachbumbabs suggested placing our games at LAVO's casino club upstairs from their restaurant. When I visited, there was a separate table game area where players were behaving themselves. It's the casino's problem to settle player disputes, and for other players to be respectful of each other, not ours.

Keep the comments and questions coming, bloodoil.

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
redjohn