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Ahigh
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September 10th, 2015 at 10:28:17 AM permalink
NANOTECH GAMING just announced "CasinoKat" -- which is a hybrid skill-based gambling game inspired by classic arcade maze gameplay.



http://nanotechgaming521.newswire.com/press-release/nanotech-gaming-to-debut-casinokat-skill-based-game-at-g2e-2015
https://www.facebook.com/NTGLKat

The same AP math model is used in CasinoKat that was used for Vegas pinball.

We'll have four cabinets at the show. One of each game at our booth and at the Integrated Resort Experience (IRE for short).

With the IRE of the operators for advantage play, this years show may have this area appropriately named!

Unlimited bet denominations with large positive EV gaming experience is a whole new world.
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AxelWolf
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September 10th, 2015 at 10:34:43 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

NANOTECH GAMING just announced "CasinoKat" -- which is a hybrid skill-based gambling game inspired by classic arcade maze gameplay.



http://nanotechgaming521.newswire.com/press-release/nanotech-gaming-to-debut-casinokat-skill-based-game-at-g2e-2015
https://www.facebook.com/NTGLKat

The same AP math model is used in CasinoKat that was used for Vegas pinball.

We'll have four cabinets at the show. One of each game at our booth and at the Integrated Resort Experience (IRE for short).

With the IRE of the operators for advantage play, this years show may have this area appropriately named!

Unlimited bet denominations with large positive EV gaming experience is a whole new world.

Unlimited bet denominations with large positive EV gaming experience is a whole new world.

Did you guys decide to stop saying advantage play?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Ahigh
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September 10th, 2015 at 10:37:48 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Did you guys decide to stop saying advantage play?





To answer more directly, I did not make the press release, and it does appear the phrase is absent from the PR.

We were made aware that using the term AP is like using the word "MF'er."

So maybe we use it less. But I'm not going to step down and say, "oh our skill games don't go over 100%" like EVERY OTHER MANUFACTURER SO FAR HAS SAID OR IMPLIED.

WE GO TO 123% in NEVADA! And HELL YEAH!
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AxelWolf
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September 10th, 2015 at 11:07:34 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh



To answer more directly, I did not make the press release, and it does appear the phrase is absent from the PR.

We were made aware that using the term AP is like using the word "MF'er."

So maybe we use it less. But I'm not going to step down and say, "oh our skill games don't go over 100%" like EVERY OTHER MANUFACTURER SO FAR HAS SAID OR IMPLIED.

WE GO TO 123% in NEVADA! And HELL YEAH!

I wouldn't hide it, I just wouldn't lead with it.

Game looks really neat (I like the pinball more) with that cabinet, I can't imagine anyone would miss it, it would definitely attract people in the casino. Can you talk about cost per unit? Is this another higher limit concept? Is this something you think a fancy high limit room would want to add?

Now you just need to get Grumpy cat to endorse it.



What's the fuzzy stuff made out of? will it get dirty and plucked out?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
beachbumbabs
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September 10th, 2015 at 12:02:54 PM permalink
You know, it's interesting that Axel mentioned the fur/dirt aspect. I'm afraid that was my first reaction: "That's going to look dirty and worn really fast the way people move through casinos and throw drinks and cigarettes around." Just some feedback, could easily be wrong depending on materials.

I get the attraction of the retro-programming for a certain age of customers. Total FWIW: I was only ever really good at Galaga for some reason. I think I'm much more a customer for the Pinball concept than for the Video Game concept as a former pinball addict, and maybe slightly too old to have been drawn into VG's; think I was 16 when Pong came into arcades.

However, you could draw VG skill players/addicts trying to win at their favorite arcade concepts as well as more casual gamers, so I think maybe there's a built-in market.

All FWIW.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Ahigh
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September 10th, 2015 at 12:04:21 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

What's the fuzzy stuff made out of? will it get dirty and plucked out?



The final cabinet may or may not have the fur. This is a concept rendering and the actual cabinets are in the final stages of being built.

The design calls for detachable pieces that the fur is attached to for easy replacement. The fur is there so you can see the air moving with that 15" sub woofer.



Sort of inspired on the meme of a "HAIR TRICK."

This game is LOUD. Just ask our neighbors! LOL.
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Ahigh
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September 14th, 2015 at 11:20:40 AM permalink
I believe the deadline for free passes has expired. I look forward to seeing folks this year at the show. I believe our booth is 4116.
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GWAE
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September 22nd, 2015 at 8:10:27 PM permalink
ahh damn, Wish I would have realized that I would be in town during the show. I have never been to one and would have loved to score free passes.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 3:15:12 PM permalink
http://nanotechgaming.com/PR/casino_life_ntgl_article.pdf



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DRich
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September 23rd, 2015 at 3:22:54 PM permalink
Great article, congrats. I hope you have a great show next week.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
sabre
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September 23rd, 2015 at 3:30:18 PM permalink
You guys are just going to keep throwing terms like +EV at casino operators until you turn off the last light aren't you?
Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 3:32:27 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Great article, congrats. I hope you have a great show next week.



Thank you very much for the kind comments.
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Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 3:33:22 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

You guys are just going to keep throwing terms like +EV at casino operators until you turn off the last light aren't you?



For better or worse our company is about honesty, integrity and fairness. If we go out of business for "throwing around terms like +EV" as I think you are implying, I hope that you profit nicely from your position and are not just all talk.

Our stock symbol is NTGL. If you need help understanding how to short NTGL, I can help you. I don't mind you playing the dark side.

I do get annoyed by people watching others watch people playing craps and with no skin in the game yell out "SEVEN SEVEN SEVEN" and laugh when the seven happens.

I am similarly annoyed by your comment.

Take a position and SHOW your position and THEN talk your smack.

I would call you a name right here, but in the spirit of the rules, I'll let the reader fill in the blank.
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Zcore13
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September 23rd, 2015 at 3:52:55 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

For better or worse our company is about honesty, integrity and fairness. If we go out of business for "throwing around terms like +EV" as I think you are implying, I hope that you profit nicely from your position and are not just all talk.

Our stock symbol is NTGL. If you need help understanding how to short NTGL, I can help you. I don't mind you playing the dark side.

I do get annoyed by people watching others watch people playing craps and with no skin in the game yell out "SEVEN SEVEN SEVEN" and laugh when the seven happens.

I am similarly annoyed by your comment.

Take a position and SHOW your position and THEN talk your smack.

I would call you a name right here, but in the spirit of the rules, I'll let the reader fill in the blank.



Oh, I love games like this. Can I play? How about a simple wager. Me and you...

$250 a year for the next 4 years. If during any year you get 10 placements of either of your games (pinball 1987 or Furry Kat), that stay on a casino floor for more than 90 days I pay you $250. If during any year you get less than 10 placements that stay on a casino floor for more than 90 days, you pay me $250. I'll even count the rest of 2015 as part of 2016's total for you.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
zoobrew
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September 23rd, 2015 at 4:01:10 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

For better or worse our company is about honesty, integrity and fairness. If we go out of business for "throwing around terms like +EV" as I think you are implying, I hope that you profit nicely from your position and are not just all talk.

Our stock symbol is NTGL. If you need help understanding how to short NTGL, I can help you. I don't mind you playing the dark side.

I do get annoyed by people watching others watch people playing craps and with no skin in the game yell out "SEVEN SEVEN SEVEN" and laugh when the seven happens.

I am similarly annoyed by your comment.

Take a position and SHOW your position and THEN talk your smack.

I would call you a name right here, but in the spirit of the rules, I'll let the reader fill in the blank.



"Our stock symbol is NTGL. If you need help understanding how to short NTGL, I can help you. I don't mind you playing the dark side."

That is a stupid statement as you can't short a 2 cent stock. I hope you succeed, but the market says you wont.
Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 4:11:23 PM permalink
Quote: zoobrew

You can't short a 2 cent stock.



ORLY? Link?



I will say it again, take a position, and THEN tell me what you think.
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Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 4:12:44 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Oh, I love games like this.



I don't block you any longer, but I stopped reading right here.

But just so I know how much you "love games like this" why don't you tell me about your history playing arcade games. Then I will read the rest of what you wrote.
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Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 4:40:52 PM permalink
Quote: zoobrew

I hope you succeed.



Right, you and Zcore both. I'm sure you guys are really emotionally invested in the idea that I will be successful. And thanks for that!
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Zcore13
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September 23rd, 2015 at 4:56:45 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I don't block you any longer, but I stopped reading right here.

But just so I know how much you "love games like this" why don't you tell me about your history playing arcade games. Then I will read the rest of what you wrote.



Not very believable that you didn't read the rest, but I'll play your little game as requested.

I started playing arcade games with with a game called Tank. Around that same time I remember Gunfight, Carnival, Breakout, Space Invaders and a game I loved by Atari that I think was just called Football. It was a top down game with x's and o's as players.

After that I played just about every arcade game and home console ever put in an arcade or home. I owned the Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Intelevision, NES, N64, and every XBox incarnation since the original.

I the late 80's I chose arcade games for 2 entertainment locations. I visited the largest arcade game distributor in Arizona (Betson Pacific) every few months and would test play games. I also frequented and was friends with the owner of the largest arcade in Arizona during that time. We would attend shows together.

A few of my favorites over the years are:

1970's - Football, Asteroids, Lunar Lander
1980's - Everyone knows of the big games. Some of my not as popular favorites were Phoenix, Berzerk, Zaxxon, Popeye, Tron, V-Ball, Zevious, 1942, Super Basketball and my all-time favorite Cyberball.
1990's - Was done with college and starting a family so didn't play as much. Still played Cyberball anytime I could. Added NBA Jam to my play every week list. A couple more off the grid favorites were Gauntlet and Virtua Fighter

I also played the hell out of the following Pinball games:
Black Night, Terminator 2, Fun House, PinBot, Addams Family, Twighlight Zone, Whirlwind and Fishtales among loads of others.

I recently sold my full size arcade emulator machine with about 1,400 games on it. I had made it myself about 15 years ago and it was kind of old school. I'm looking to get a new version and a couple of my favorite pinball games. In order to do that I'm going to have to make room by selling my 4 slot machines and video poker machine.

If you want and additional information, just let me know.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 5:03:30 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Not very believable that you didn't read the rest.



A nice jab at my character there within the rules, buddy. But it's true. And if you wanted YOUR statement to be MORE correct, you could have said that it is not believable to YOU. The fact that you insist on implied convictions of me with every single personal interaction is why I stopped reading THIS message at THIS first sentence.

Look, buddy. I don't have much respect for you. I do wish I did because you sure do like to talk about me a LOT.

But I'll read the rest of this later tonight.

If you're not continuing to carry that axe around waiting for a chance to slight me with it, we might actually have a meaningful exchange.

But I seriously doubt that your character has changed all that much.

Later tonight, buddy.

And if you doubt what I read and didn't read, feel free to edit the rest of your latest message. I did read the first message since posting this, but I'll give you a chance to post up some actual factual data that is worth my time instead of your typical personally biased hogwash you tend to throw my way.
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Zcore13
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September 23rd, 2015 at 5:06:33 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

A nice jab at my character there within the rules, buddy. But it's true. The fact that you insist on implied convictions of me with every single personal interaction is why I stopped reading THIS message at THIS first sentence.

Look, buddy. I don't have much respect for you. I do wish I did because you sure do like to talk about me a LOT.

But I'll read the rest of this later tonight.

If you're not continuing to carry that axe around waiting for a chance to slight me with it, we might actually have a meaningful exchange.

But I seriously doubt that your character has changed all that much.

Later tonight, buddy.



I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven't said anything about you. You asked someone for a wager, I asked if I could have one. You asked about my experience with video games. I told you about it. If you enjoy getting upset over nothing, have at it. But I did not said anything negative about you.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 5:16:56 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I have no idea what you are talking about.



I'm talking about the fact that you implied that I was lying when I said I didn't read the rest of your message.

I'm talking about the fact that you, in general, have a bias to any conversation with me where you want to focus on anything to slight my character.

And I'm talking about how, when I read stuff from you, it takes a great deal of restraint from becoming emotional as a result of this characteristic that I am so desperately trying to convey to you.

I'm not responding right now because, as this post might indicate, it might reflect how I really feel about how you interact with me more than any legitimate content of your message that is for some other purpose (other than defaming my character that is just in case you wanted to claim you don't understand what I'm talking about).

So later tonight. And again, I stopped at the first sentence here, buddy.

Okay?
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Zcore13
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September 23rd, 2015 at 5:18:24 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I'm talking about the fact that you implied that I was lying when I said I didn't read the rest of your message.

I'm talking about the fact that you, in general, have a bias to any conversation with me where you want to focus on anything to slight my character.

And I'm talking about how, when I read stuff from you, it takes a great deal of restraint from becoming emotional as a result of this characteristic that I am so desperately trying to convey to you.

I'm not responding right now because, as this post might indicate, it might reflect how I really feel about how you interact with me more than any legitimate content of your message that is for some other purpose (other than defaming my character that is just in case you wanted to claim you don't understand what I'm talking about).

So later tonight. And again, I stopped at the first sentence here, buddy.

Okay?



Ok. Have a good evening.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 5:20:47 PM permalink
I really do hope that you can improve yourself so that we can communicate.

Your ability to communicate with me personally is terrible. Maybe the worst of anyone who tries, assuming you're NOT just trying to make me look bad and only PRETENDING to want to help me.

That's a pretty big assumption in my view, by the way.
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Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 5:21:25 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Ok. Have a good evening.



Thanks. You too. I do want to move on, and I do want to bury the hatchet.

:-)
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AxelWolf
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September 23rd, 2015 at 6:32:35 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

For better or worse our company is about honesty, integrity and fairness. If we go out of business for "throwing around terms like +EV" as I think you are implying, I hope that you profit nicely from your position and are not just all talk.

Our stock symbol is NTGL. If you need help understanding how to short NTGL, I can help you. I don't mind you playing the dark side.

I do get annoyed by people watching others watch people playing craps and with no skin in the game yell out "SEVEN SEVEN SEVEN" and laugh when the seven happens.

I am similarly annoyed by your comment.

Take a position and SHOW your position and THEN talk your smack.

I would call you a name right here, but in the spirit of the rules, I'll let the reader fill in the blank.

I have been saying you shouldn't keep pushing the +EV AP stuff. I absolutely was not criticizing your game. I hope your successful and i'm not just saying that. I would love for the casinos to embrace games that offer +EV for skilled players while the house always has the advantage.

Highlighting the ADVANTAGE part has been a major criticism by many, not just here but places like 2p2. I'm not saying hide this fact. I'm just saying play it down a bit, It's not a good selling point. Don't lead with it Advantage play. Here's some examples this is in the first sentence describing the game.

"Vegas 2047 offers advantage plays to experienced players while still offering minimum paybacks according to local legislation." That's followed by a paragraph saying stuff like this.
But, in general, aside from random opportunities to exploit positive expectation, there is no outlet for high limit video gambling with positive EV gambling opportunities.


"Vegas 2047 offers advantage plays to experienced players"

Meanwhile game designers are paying people to do everything they can to avoid games that allow any advantage.

Casino want all advantage players gone.

Anytime you have a game that's player pooled and is exposed to advantage players the casinos feel as if the money walks out the door.

Example: Vegas 2047 pinball gets installed in a high limit room. There's a high limit guy that frequently comes to Vegas with a 100k gambling budget.

He usually stays until hes broke 1 day, 2 days, 5 days. If he's winning he just stays longer and bets more. Unless he has a run of his life he always blows his 100k and close to that in EV.

He's a terrible BJ player and he usually plays that One day He strolls in the HL with his 100k to play BJ. He spots V 2047 and decides to play that instead. He's terrible at that game as well.

He Blows his 100k. He would've done the same thing on BJ because this guy always plays until his trip BR is gone anyways.

Now advantage players all come in behind him and eventually scoop up most of the bonus pool. Let's pretend they pick up 17k in value and actual.

That's 17k the casino loses because the advantage players use it for non -EV gambling stuff like rent/mortgage , cars, bills, investments, vacations (not to casinos) hookers, other advantage plays in the casino.

You need to convince the casinos it's worth paying for your game, and your game will make up for that extra losses the advantage players will be pocketing, by stealing/keeping/attracting players from going elsewhere.

Will people who enjoy pinball play this over other games? I believe they will, but will it be enough to make up for the other hurdles?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Ahigh
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September 23rd, 2015 at 7:32:00 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I have been saying you shouldn't keep pushing the +EV AP stuff. I absolutely was not criticizing your game. I hope your successful and i'm not just saying that. I would love for the casinos to embrace games that offer +EV for skilled players while the house always has the advantage.

Highlighting the ADVANTAGE part has been a major criticism by many, not just here but places like 2p2. I'm not saying hide this fact. I'm just saying play it down a bit, It's not a good selling point. Don't lead with it Advantage play. Here's some examples this is in the first sentence describing the game.

"Vegas 2047 offers advantage plays to experienced players while still offering minimum paybacks according to local legislation." That's followed by a paragraph saying stuff like this.
But, in general, aside from random opportunities to exploit positive expectation, there is no outlet for high limit video gambling with positive EV gambling opportunities.


"Vegas 2047 offers advantage plays to experienced players"

Meanwhile game designers are paying people to do everything they can to avoid games that allow any advantage.

Casino want all advantage players gone.

Anytime you have a game that's player pooled and is exposed to advantage players the casinos feel as if the money walks out the door.

Example: Vegas 2047 pinball gets installed in a high limit room. There's a high limit guy that frequently comes to Vegas with a 100k gambling budget.

He usually stays until hes broke 1 day, 2 days, 5 days. If he's winning he just stays longer and bets more. Unless he has a run of his life he always blows his 100k and close to that in EV.

He's a terrible BJ player and he usually plays that One day He strolls in the HL with his 100k to play BJ. He spots V 2047 and decides to play that instead. He's terrible at that game as well.

He Blows his 100k. He would've done the same thing on BJ because this guy always plays until his trip BR is gone anyways.

Now advantage players all come in behind him and eventually scoop up most of the bonus pool. Let's pretend they pick up 17k in value and actual.

That's 17k the casino loses because the advantage players use it for non -EV gambling stuff like rent/mortgage , cars, bills, investments, vacations (not to casinos) hookers, other advantage plays in the casino.

You need to convince the casinos it's worth paying for your game, and your game will make up for that extra losses the advantage players will be pocketing, by stealing/keeping/attracting players from going elsewhere.

Will people who enjoy pinball play this over other games? I believe they will, but will it be enough to make up for the other hurdles?



Thanks for the comments, Axel. I haven't read them yet, but I'll respond as soon as I can.
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EvenBob
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September 23rd, 2015 at 9:14:26 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13


$250 a year for the next 4 years. If during any year you get 10 placements of either of your games (pinball 1987 or Furry Kat), that stay on a casino floor for more than 90 days I pay you $250. If during any year you get less than 10 placements that stay on a casino floor for more than 90 days, you pay me $250. I'll even count the rest of 2015 as part of 2016's total for you.



You're funny, Zcore. Is this a Twilight Zone wager,
as that's the only place any of that could happen.
I'd be more concerned about the furry legs on
the kitty machines, You just know some pissed
player is going to pull it off, or see if it will burn
with his lighter.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
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September 24th, 2015 at 2:22:19 AM permalink


Hey guys. I am still really short on time, so I wish I could comment. I do want to thank everyone on this forum for their interest.

Today was a very busy day and we are still preparing for G2E. So hopefully it's understandable that I'm not going to be engaging just everyone with discussions just as a result of a lack of time. I could probably do four hours tonight alone posting on the internet, but it would only lead to more discussion that I wouldn't have time for unfortunately, so I'm just going to clip it.

I did read the comments and I appreciate them very much.

I will continue posting on the forum, but I do need to also consider that I have a lot of other responsibilities besides being accountable to those who think I should run the business differently out on the interwebs.

Hopefully the forum, on the whole, can appreciate that I do enjoy spending time talking on this forum and I've been around a few years. I always generally speak my mind, but I don't want to engage in arguments.

Thanks again.
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Ahigh
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September 24th, 2015 at 2:49:54 AM permalink
Thanks again everyone for all the great comments.
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Hullabaloo
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September 24th, 2015 at 6:35:34 AM permalink
That article states:

"Young people are going to casinos. They're just not playing gaming devices"
and
"Gamblers are clearly not playing slot machines as much as they did in the past".

Both may be true, but the pertinent question is "why?"

I'd guess the answer is not one of them not finding the games enjoyable but people finding them to be money suckers. The new games seem to rely on frequent "wins" to retain players, but the "wins" are usually far less than the bet. On a psychological level it may work to some degree, but if the overall result is you lose, and quickly, people are less likely to play again. And that's a theme I've seen over and over again reported by players in forums, trip reports, etc.

I can't say I really understand the math of the skill based games, but my feeling is that while players may find them enticing at first if the casino's crank down the paybacks, (and you know they will), the long term results may mirror those of the new slots.
stv2049
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September 24th, 2015 at 10:35:33 AM permalink
Hey folks,

Lots of great discussion, ideas, and information here!

We will see what the reaction is at the Global Gaming Expo next week to CasinoKat. Here at NanoTech Gaming, we're convinced that we have a combination of casino math, casual gameplay, and unusual cabinet presentation that will both resonate with a new demographic, and shake up status-quo industry thinking.

We're well aware of the obvious obstacles we face in bringing CasinoKat to market:
- non-restricted manufacturer's license
- non-standard math model
- skill-based gameplay
- non-standard cabinet

For each point, we have a plan.
- identify a partner with a gaming license, distribution
- educate players, operators, manufacturers about the balanced nature of our math model
- #SkillMatters, but not to the extent that you lose more slowly than someone with lower skill
- the furry cabinet is a 3D rendering, the cabinet is a prototype and can be custom-built to suit

To AxelWolf's scenario where one player loses $100k and another group of players win a combined $17k the bottom line for the casino is their House Edge. Our math model guarantees that each game will NEVER hold LESS theoretical than their desired House Edge.

To the comments about the furry cabinet, loud music, etc. again, the intent is to shake things up, and get folks to think about new possibilities, and not get caught up in easily-addressable compliance details like fire hazards and security.

We're doing something new, something truly innovative in the casino space. We are not making "skill-based slot machines". In my opinion, just the phrase 'skill-based slot' is an oxymoron, and indicative of the inside-the-box thinking of big-name manufacturers.

However, none of this is of any importance compared to a simple earnings report (show me the money). We believe that once our game has gone through a field trial, the earnings will speak for themselves, and casino operators will have no doubt that our math model, our games, and our vision will work.

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
Boz
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September 24th, 2015 at 11:13:25 AM permalink
America is the land of opportunity for those willing to work hard and fight for what they believe in. I admire your companies efforts and wish you well. It's obvious everyone in the company believes in the product.

I hope the success follows and you have a great show!
EvenBob
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September 24th, 2015 at 1:23:52 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049

Our math model guarantees that each game will NEVER hold LESS theoretical than their desired House Edge.



So the skilled players make money and
so does the house? Both AP's and house
win? Because if that's true, all that will
play these machines are AP's, if they make
money they will never get off them.

Using the words 'skill' and 'AP' implies a
player can get ahead and stay ahead on
your machines. Correct?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stv2049
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September 24th, 2015 at 2:22:41 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

So the skilled players make money and
so does the house?

Yes, theoretically.

Quote: EvenBob

Both AP's and house
win?

Yes, again, theoretically, in the long run. However, in the short run anyone can get lucky.

Quote: EvenBob

Because if that's true, all that will
play these machines are AP's, if they make
money they will never get off them.

Our games work similar to how head-to-head poker works: the players with greater skill win over the players with lesser skill in the long run. Saying that "they will never get off," is like saying you can make money playing poker against yourself.

Quote: EvenBob

Using the words 'skill' and 'AP' implies a
player can get ahead and stay ahead on
your machines. Correct?

Yes, with two caveats:
1. You have to be slightly better than average among the local pool of players to overcome the house edge.
2. By being the better than average, you can get ahead and stay ahead in the long run. Anyone - even the worst player - can get lucky and win!

Thanks for your comments and questions EvenBob!
STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
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September 24th, 2015 at 3:40:41 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob
Using the words 'skill' and 'AP' implies a
player can get ahead and stay ahead on
your machines. Correct?

Quote: stv2049


Yes, with two caveats:
1. You have to be slightly better than average among the local pool of players to overcome the house edge.
2. By being the better than average, you can get ahead and stay ahead in the long run.
STV



You realize this makes no sense, right? It certainly
won't to a casino. It sounds like if most of the pool
of players are skilled AP's at this, the casino will
lose money.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
zoobrew
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September 24th, 2015 at 4:07:50 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Quote: EvenBob
Using the words 'skill' and 'AP' implies a
player can get ahead and stay ahead on
your machines. Correct?

Quote: stv2049


Yes, with two caveats:
1. You have to be slightly better than average among the local pool of players to overcome the house edge.
2. By being the better than average, you can get ahead and stay ahead in the long run.
STV



You realize this makes no sense, right? It certainly
won't to a casino. It sounds like if most of the pool
of players are skilled AP's at this, the casino will
lose money.


Not if the skilled AP's have to compete against each other. Using sports as an example if everyone is include then a college player can win, but if the pool is 90% college players than only the star college player or better will win and if the pool is 90% star college players or better then only the good pro players will win.... until only Lebron James is the winner.
stv2049
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September 24th, 2015 at 4:08:37 PM permalink
It makes complete sense to me. I know it may not make sense to a casino and that's where we're prepared to educate.

Quote: EvenBob


You realize this makes no sense, right? It certainly
won't to a casino. It sounds like if most of the pool
of players are skilled AP's at this, the casino will
lose money.



Here's where I think I haven't explained our math model clearly enough:
1. The 'pool' of players I'm talking about is ALL of the players who play a particular game.

2. The casino will NEVER lose theoretical hold. Please just accept this as a fact that is backed up by simulations of our math model.

3. In your example, "most of the pool of players are skilled AP's" seems to mean that "most of the pool of players have lifetime +EV"

I can imagine a case that supports #3 only in the scenario AxelWolf proposed, where one Whale bets big and has horrible games, and many AP Minnows are splitting the available theoretical advantage.

Think about the pool of players who play head-to-head poker. Are 'most of the pool of players' skilled AP's? If they were, where would the money or theoretical advantage come from?

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
Ahigh
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September 24th, 2015 at 4:48:23 PM permalink
Quote: Boz

America is the land of opportunity for those willing to work hard and fight for what they believe in. I admire your companies efforts and wish you well. It's obvious everyone in the company believes in the product.

I hope the success follows and you have a great show!



Hey Boz. I don't know if we have met before, but I wanted to thank you for your comment.

We do not have an aversion towards working very hard because we enjoy the work that we do.

That's where I think many people have a hard time understanding where we are coming from.

But we have an AMAZING TEAM that is 100% behind what we're doing and we are all making personal sacrifices in the short term for a longer-term goal.

I really do appreciate your comments very much, and thanks!
aahigh.com
EvenBob
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September 24th, 2015 at 4:54:40 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049

It makes complete sense to me. I know it may not make sense to a casino

STV



It for sure won't make sense to a casino. You
tell them what you've written here today
and they will stop listening after you tell
them both casino and AP's can come out
ahead. You can say 'theoretically' and 'long
term' till your faces really do turn blue, and
all they'll hear is "AP's can win".

It's been a year since this first came out, how
many casinos have said "Wow, what a great
idea." I bet it's zero.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
sabre
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September 24th, 2015 at 7:27:21 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049


Here's where I think I haven't explained our math model clearly enough:



I think you've explained your math model very clearly. The casino can't lose. We get that. Your machine won't lose money in the long run for any casino under any operating parameters. We get that. Much like a casino can't lose on a progressive video poker machine under any circumstance as long as the theoretical max payout for perfect play given the paytable + meter rise is < 100%. Much like a progressive slot can't lose as long as theoretical payout + meter rise is < 100%. We get it. We get it. We aren't stupid. We get it.

JUST BECAUSE A CASINO CAN'T LOSE ON AN INSTALLATION DOESN'T MEAN THEY WON'T REJECT THE CONCEPT OUT OF HAND IF THEY BELIEVE AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYER CAN PLAY IT PROFITABLY.

Let me give you two scenarios

1) Game returns theoretical $1,000 per day to casino. Nobody can play the game at an advantage.

2) Game returns theoretical $1,500 per day to casino. Additionally, Joe Bob Smartypants can win $100 a day if he stalks the machine 24/7 and plays it only when he has an edge.

For simplicity, assume play on this game has zero effect on play on the other games in said casino.

I believe firmly that 99.5% of casinos operating on this Earth would pick 1) over 2).
EvenBob
EvenBob
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September 24th, 2015 at 8:00:22 PM permalink
Quote: sabre



I believe firmly that 99.5% of casinos operating on this Earth would pick 1) over 2).



It's actually 100% and here's why. If a
casino knows an AP can get a skill
advantage, no matter how you sugar
coat it or reassuringly explain it, they
will automatically assume an AP will
figure out how to get a BIG skill
advantage and they will lose money.

No matter how many ways you explain
it, they've been burned so many times
now, in so many different ways, there
is no way they will knowingly let what
could be a Trojan Horse into their casino.

Can you blame them?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 24th, 2015 at 8:21:19 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049

Hey folks,

Lots of great discussion, ideas, and information here!

We will see what the reaction is at the Global Gaming Expo next week to CasinoKat. Here at NanoTech Gaming, we're convinced that we have a combination of casino math, casual gameplay, and unusual cabinet presentation that will both resonate with a new demographic, and shake up status-quo industry thinking.

We're well aware of the obvious obstacles we face in bringing CasinoKat to market:
- non-restricted manufacturer's license
- non-standard math model
- skill-based gameplay
- non-standard cabinet

For each point, we have a plan.
- identify a partner with a gaming license, distribution
- educate players, operators, manufacturers about the balanced nature of our math model
- #SkillMatters, but not to the extent that you lose more slowly than someone with lower skill
- the furry cabinet is a 3D rendering, the cabinet is a prototype and can be custom-built to suit

To AxelWolf's scenario where one player loses $100k and another group of players win a combined $17k the bottom line for the casino is their House Edge. Our math model guarantees that each game will NEVER hold LESS theoretical than their desired House Edge.

To the comments about the furry cabinet, loud music, etc. again, the intent is to shake things up, and get folks to think about new possibilities, and not get caught up in easily-addressable compliance details like fire hazards and security.

We're doing something new, something truly innovative in the casino space. We are not making "skill-based slot machines". In my opinion, just the phrase 'skill-based slot' is an oxymoron, and indicative of the inside-the-box thinking of big-name manufacturers.

However, none of this is of any importance compared to a simple earnings report (show me the money). We believe that once our game has gone through a field trial, the earnings will speak for themselves, and casino operators will have no doubt that our math model, our games, and our vision will work.

STV

I get that the casino will always have an advantage on the game. Sometimes AP's will have an advantage.

The +EV money comes from the ploppys. The ploppys are people who would normally spend that extra +EV money in the casino. Skilled players take that money and walk out the door. Therefore the casino makes less money.

It wouldn't be any difference than an advantage player just standing at the machine and charging people a percentage of their money just to play the game. Your game will need to make up for this somehow. If it's popular enough, then that's certainly possible.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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September 24th, 2015 at 8:26:50 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

It's actually 100% and here's why. If a
casino knows an AP can get a skill
advantage, no matter how you sugar
coat it or reassuringly explain it, they
will automatically assume an AP will
figure out how to get a BIG skill
advantage and they will lose money.

No matter how many ways you explain
it, they've been burned so many times
now, in so many different ways, there
is no way they will knowingly let what
could be a Trojan Horse into their casino.

Can you blame them?

Sure they will they, do it all the time. UX is an example. Not only do they all know about UX, they just made came out with games that are similar to UX. As long as they believe it will be successful.

I'm certain had someone like IGT came up with this, we would see it in casinos now.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
sabre
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September 24th, 2015 at 8:30:56 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Sure they will they, do it all the time. UX is an example. Not only do they all know about UX, they just made came out with games that are similar to UX. As long as they believe it will be successful.

I'm certain had someone like IGT came up with this, we would see it in casinos now.



When UX was marketed, there's zero chance they said "People have an advantage on x% of the plays! Isn't that Awesome!"
EvenBob
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September 24th, 2015 at 8:52:58 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


I'm certain had someone like IGT came up with this, we would see it in casinos now.



I'm certain you're wrong. It's easy enough
to find out, wait 6 months and see how
many installations there are. Then wait
a year and see how many are left.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Mission146
Mission146
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September 24th, 2015 at 9:01:18 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

It for sure won't make sense to a casino. You
tell them what you've written here today
and they will stop listening after you tell
them both casino and AP's can come out
ahead. You can say 'theoretically' and 'long
term' till your faces really do turn blue, and
all they'll hear is "AP's can win".

It's been a year since this first came out, how
many casinos have said "Wow, what a great
idea." I bet it's zero.



The casinos have a ton of machines where AP's can win, and not just VP. They know AP's can win. From what I can tell, they don't care that AP's can win.

It's all about knowing, as an AP, the conditions under which you should play. On the machines I'm describing, they have a HE, and the houses loses nothing vis-a-vis the AP's. Now, you might argue that the AP's won't turn around and dump that money in a bad machine, but that doesn't mean the casino actually loses anything.

Maybe if you thought of the Pinball HE as more of a long-term rake, you'd get the concept.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
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September 24th, 2015 at 9:23:50 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The casinos have a ton of machines where AP's can win, and not just VP. They know AP's can win. From what I can tell, they don't care that AP's can win.

It's all about knowing, as an AP, the conditions under which you should play. On the machines I'm describing, they have a HE, and the houses loses nothing vis-a-vis the AP's. Now, you might argue that the AP's won't turn around and dump that money in a bad machine, but that doesn't mean the casino actually loses anything.

.

They don't lose on that machine, but they make less because of that machine because of AP's.


If casinos don't care then the industry wouldn't hire people to design games that have no AP possibilities.

They wouldn't have taken out 80% of the VP progressives they have. If they didn't care they would add back 2% and 3% meters so .25 RF meters had a chance to build up to 8k (who wouldn't want to play that?)

They wouldn't have taken out all the bonus pooling games that people loved.

Mandalay bay ripped out an entire system soon after opening. A significant amount of the casino's slots were built on bonus pooling bonuses. This was entirely baaed on caring about AP's. There's many more examples I have listed before.

Poker is probably the only AP game whey don't care about.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
sabre
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September 24th, 2015 at 9:36:41 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The casinos have a ton of machines where AP's can win, and not just VP. They know AP's can win. From what I can tell, they don't care that AP's can win.



Statement one is correct.
Statement two is debateable.
Statement three is false.

Quote: Mission146

Maybe if you thought of the Pinball HE as more of a long-term rake, you'd get the concept.



We get the concept. If you, and AHigh, and stv could get past the mental block that we don't get the concept, then maybe you could get the concept that the phrase "Cut off their nose to spite their face" describes casino management to a T.
Mission146
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September 24th, 2015 at 9:50:41 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

They don't lose on that machine, but they make less because of that machine because of AP's.



In some cases, less on other machines. One example I was thinking of is those Must-Hits I love so much. Unless it is the $10 thing, almost everyone I have seen leaves after hitting a higher one. Then they go lose on something else, AP's don't do the lose on something else part, at least, not as often.


Quote:

If casinos don't care then the industry wouldn't hire people to design games that have no AP possibilities.

They wouldn't have taken out 80% of the VP progressives they have. If they didn't care they would add back 2% and 3% meters so .25 RF meters had a chance to build up to 8k (who wouldn't want to play that?)



There have been counter measures in some instances. I meant they don't care in terms of people aren't often barred just for APing a machine, if that's all they are doing.

Quote:


Mandalay bay ripped out an entire system soon after opening. A significant amount of the casino's slots were built on bonus pooling bonuses. This was entirely baaed on caring about AP's. There's many more examples I have listed before.

Poker is probably the only AP game whey don't care about.



Why would they take them all out if they were getting action, though? Maybe the hustlers were too aggressive about the whole thing and with each other, did that have anything to do with it?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
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