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stv2049
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:04:28 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

And 92% of them have no real money
to spend gambling.


Whoa there, EvenBob, if you're going to pull out a statistic, you gotta tell us where it came from!

There's nothing I found in the Las Vegas Visitor Profile Study 2014 that pointed to any direct correlation between the age of visitors and the amount of money they spent gambling.

However, you CAN infer an interesting trend:

1. The percentage of older visitors is declining...
Proportion of visitors who were 40 years old or older: (page 7)
2010: 71%
2011: 70%
2012: 58%
2013: 58%
2014: 57%

2. The percentage of younger visitors is increasing...
Visitor age 21-29: (page 81)
2010: 10%
2011: 12%
2012: 19%
2013: 15%
2014: 17%

3. The amount of money spent gambling is increasing...
Average trip gambling budget among those who gambled (page 5):
2010: $466.20
2011: $447.63
2012: $484.70
2013: $529.57
2014: $530.11

Quote: EvenBob


There are no
games designed for the young because
they are a casinos least desirable gambler.
They have zero disposable income, they
are always struggling, especially now. But
you guys are the experts, what do I know.
I've only been going to casinos since 1975,
I'm just a rookie.


We love young gamblers and we love young money. We believe that 21-29 year olds ARE visiting Las Vegas and DO have disposable income. We believe that fewer of these young gamblers are playing slot machines because of their high house edge, little social interaction, and lack of skill and interactivity.

All the reasons why the casino of the future will have more games in it like CasinoKat!

We love you too, EvenBob!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:38:16 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049


2014: $530.11



That's an average for ALL gamblers. The average
for 21-29 is much much smaller, they make far
less money than the over 40 crowd.


Quote: stv2049

We believe that 21-29 year olds.. DO have disposable income.



That must be a religious belief, because it not
founded on actual facts, surveys, or anecdotal
evidence. I always pay attention to who's playing
when I'm in Vegas, and I don't see any more
young people in the casinos than I ever did.
And when I do see them, they mostly bet very
conservatively. In fact, it's worse now for the
21-29 crowd than it's ever been. Over half of
all college grads move back in with their
parents because they can't find a job making
enough money to support themselves. They
certainly don't have any to blow in a casino.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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September 26th, 2015 at 9:21:10 PM permalink
*shakes head*

The kids are in the Las Vegas clubs.

They walk through the casino to get to the clubs and to the pools for the organized clubbing activities.

Good god, man, open your eyes, it's right in front of you.

They love Vegas, it is a great place to party.

They have enough money: just look at the money spent in the clubs on the strip.

Yeah, they could pretty much give a rat's ass about sitting at a slot machine for hours, or playing roulette.

Now, I am not saying thatt ALL the youngsters are financially secure: probably the upper ten to twenty percent are, but that is just a guesstimate.

Lots of em have to eat Ramen to get by, but millions of others can eat and do whatever they damn well please: it just takes money, and they happen to have it.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 10:06:41 PM permalink
Quote: MrV



Now, I am not saying thatt ALL the youngsters are financially secure: probably the upper ten to twenty percent are,
.



Let's go with 10% We already established that
only 15% are in the 21-29 age range. If 90%
have no real money, that leaves a whopping
1.5% of 21-29 group who does. You just
made my case, the number is so small they
are almost invisible. And some of this tiny
crowd has to somehow be wooed into
playing these games on a regular basis?
Not enough R in the R&D phase of this
product, obviously.

Kids is Vegas spend their money on everything
but gaming, they aren't the morons their
parents are.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AxelWolf
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September 26th, 2015 at 10:50:27 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I always pay attention to who's playing
when I'm in Vegas, and I don't see any more
young people in the casinos than I ever did..

How often is that? How long do you stay? I swear you said before you don't go near the strip. Downtown isn't a good place to judge this.

39% of casino visitors across the country are between 21 and 35 years old. Anyone born in the 60's or later love video games. so they really get people 21 to 50 something. My mom who's over 70 plays simple Video games on her computer all the time.

Zuma is one of her favorite. If she were to find that in a casino, she would be more likely to play that or something she was familiar with from playing video games.

I can only imagine how well a Mario Brothers slot/skill game might do (if done right).

Apparently 235 million People Play Games on Facebook every month. That's just FB. keep telling yourself video games are for young people and that type of gambling will fail in casinos.

The BIGGEST problem they will have once video games are integrated into gambling is....
massive addiction problems.


Video games are not just a fad anymore, they are no different than music, art or watching tv/video/movies.

If anything a Pac Man theme machine may be way behind and just a novelty game once IGT and other companies get involved.

Video games are here to stay forever, they will merge with gambling as the norm.

I can imagine Grand Theft Auto : The casino edition.(possibly full senses Virtual Reality )

You buy in for x amount at the start. Your gambling starts off by trying to find the right hooker/store/bank to rob. The bigger the risk higher the pay off. The bigger the buy in the more tools/ weapons you start with. Fail and game over - re-buy, try again. Succeed Build a bankroll and hit the casino. Win and deposit it in your virtual bank account, pay bills, shop, invest in the casino. Some skill and some luck. As I imagine it, Assuming it had an advantage, I would probably never leave.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 11:25:55 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

As I imagine it, Assuming it had an advantage, I would probably never leave.



As their biggest fan, if they ever get an install,
you're might be called on to do just that. I hope
your showing up next week for the entire 3
days to play constantly, making it look like
at least one person is interested. Good for
morale, if nothing else.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Mission146
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September 27th, 2015 at 12:09:38 AM permalink
As I emphasized in one of my Articles about this subject, even if we assume that the younger crowd doesn't have as much money, the younger crowd will one day be the crowd that has the money...and this (in my opinion) is going to be the sort of thing they are looking for.

I think that NanoTech is absolutely on the cutting edge of what will one day be a serious market for these kinds of games. If there is one concern I have for the company, which is actually an ideological compliment to them, it is that they might be TOO FAR ahead of their time and rolling these ideas out too early.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
EvenBob
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September 27th, 2015 at 12:32:25 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146



I think that NanoTech is absolutely on the cutting edge



Installs tell the story, lasting installs
that make the casinos money. That's
all that counts in the end, that the
casino makes money for the space
a machine takes up. Nothing else
matters.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Mission146
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September 27th, 2015 at 12:51:30 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Installs tell the story, lasting installs
that make the casinos money. That's
all that counts in the end, that the
casino makes money for the space
a machine takes up. Nothing else
matters.



My post actually had two paragraphs...
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
EvenBob
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September 27th, 2015 at 1:17:44 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

My post actually had two paragraphs...



For me, it only had one sentence, where
you summed it all up. Sorry, I'm only
looking for headlines..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stv2049
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September 27th, 2015 at 2:52:52 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Installs tell the story, lasting installs
that make the casinos money. That's
all that counts in the end, that the
casino makes money for the space
a machine takes up. Nothing else
matters.


Here's something we all can agree on, EvenBob.

We believe our games have the potential to earn more for the casino than any other game on the floor.

Who will be that forward-looking company ready to take a chance by helping us get a field trial and earnings report?

Nothing else matters!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
Boz
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September 27th, 2015 at 5:42:52 AM permalink
There should be no debate about the money certain younger visitors to Vegas have to spend at clubs when you see the top 10 DJ's made $268 Million in 2014 with Calvin Harris making $68M. All of the Top 10 make most of this money in Vegas. And the clubs are not paying them all this to lose money in the clubs, hoping to get them in the casino.

It's a new world on the strip and the casinos are finding new ways to make money.

It they can show a casino this game makes them money, it will get popular quickly. AP potential or not.
MrV
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September 27th, 2015 at 8:57:18 AM permalink
I wonder whether Las Vegas has surpassed Ibiza as the world's party capitol?

The New Yorker magazine has reported that the four dance clubs at Steve Wynn’s Encore and Wynn resorts reportedly took in (grossed) more money last year than the resorts’ slot machines, so this is no minor league endeavor unfolding in sin city.

It's a brave,new world.

Note to the old fogeys: keep up or get the hell out of the way.
"What, me worry?"
Ibeatyouraces
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September 27th, 2015 at 9:01:15 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

I wonder whether Las Vegas has surpassed Ibiza as the world's party capitol?

The New Yorker magazine has reported that the four dance clubs at Steve Wynn’s Encore and Wynn resorts reportedly took in (grossed) more money last year than the resorts’ slot machines, so this is no minor league endeavor unfolding in sin city.

It's a brave,new world.

Note to the old fogeys: keep up or get the hell out of the way.


Pauly D from "Jersey Shore" was here at MGM Detroit last night. The casino was packed three times more then normal for a Saturday night.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
QuasiIntellectu
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September 27th, 2015 at 9:11:15 AM permalink
Quote: stv2049

Who will be that forward-looking company ready to take a chance by helping us get a field trial and earnings report?

Why are none of the Vegas insiders replying? They always seems to clam up when the going gets obvious.

Ship out a couple machines to Bob. After a couple of weeks, he won't stop talking about them.
... it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge.
EvenBob
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September 27th, 2015 at 11:48:32 AM permalink
Quote: stv2049



Nothing else matters!

STV



I don't get it. A year ago you were
rolling out the pinball, all excited about
getting orders for installs. A year
later and it's the same show and
not a single install yet? And when
asked questions here about why
not, what's the problem, you never
answer.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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September 27th, 2015 at 11:51:42 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

that the four dance clubs at Steve Wynn’s Encore and Wynn resorts reportedly took in (grossed) more money last year than the resorts’ slot machines,
.



And this is good news for new games how, exactly.
Sounds like bad news to me.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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September 27th, 2015 at 11:54:06 AM permalink
Quote: QuasiIntellectu


Ship out a couple machines to Bob. After a couple of weeks, he won't stop talking about them.



I hate arcade games. Had a couple in the
bar and I think I played them each once.
That kind of stuff bores the crap out of
me, give me chess any day.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
boymimbo
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September 27th, 2015 at 1:31:48 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I'm not confused at all: in fact, I agree with your above comment, except the party crowd have more than $150 to spend: they're not hurting for money at all; they arrive from all over the world, but primarily from So Cal on the weekends, flush with cash and ready to let loose.

Young folks these days are still coming to Las Vegas, same as ever, but instead of coming to gamble and watch a stage show they are coming to dance in a mega-club to tunes spun by a famous DJ, wanting only to party and hook up: gambling is secondary.

Your comment that " they have no cash...They have zero disposable income" was clearly incorrect.

They may be broke in Michigan, but not out West: things are hopping out here.



Except that the games being marketed are to the boomers or older who enjoyed pinball and pacman. That means kids in the 80s. That makes the minimum age for the game 45.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
sabre
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September 27th, 2015 at 1:38:42 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Except that the games being marketed are to the boomers or older who enjoyed pinball and pacman. That means kids in the 80s. That makes the minimum age for the game 45.



Yeah, I'm not sure about these comments about "young kids" not being into gaming. These skill games are totally hitting the 30-45 yr old demo that certainly has money to blow gambling. I don't even think 20 somethings know what a pinball machine is. I'm totally into skill based gaming taking off. I just don't think the "APs won't hurt your bottom line" argument is going to fly in any casino.
boymimbo
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September 27th, 2015 at 1:54:44 PM permalink
Well I've read everything, and here's my précis.

Nevada allows slot games of skills. Aaron's company comes out with two games that are pinball (which will appeal to older folks) and pacman (which will appeal to older folks). The fact that more disposable income is coming in from the young is irrelevant. The games will not appeal to them. Give them guitar hero or a current racing game and you might have something different. Pinball and PacMan will appeal to the 45+ crowd.

The games allows a better EV to the skillful and I think that scares the crap out of casinos.

Now while VP allows a theoretical return which can exceed 100% (never on the strip mind you) to people who play perfect strategy casinos recognize that the actual return is probably 0.5 - 5% below theo depending on skill. They have had the experience of decades of VP and have shown the math is there to support their income, and certainly there are progressive games in VP that can be vultured. Ultimate X can be vultured too, but that is factored into the HE.

Now a new game comes out and it will be an oddity: a skill based game where a player with skill can win, and more than $8/hour. To me that seems completely unfair. Casinos don't mind an AP grinder who comes in and makes their $9/hour and leaves. Casinos would mind a group of people coming in, play a highly skilled game and leave with $100 times x number of machines for a little bit of work, despite the fact that the casinos make the same amount of money each day. That would just irk them.

This is why I think the games will not be successful. I read the brochure. I understand the concept, but I think the game is not marketed at the right crowd and I don't think casinos would appreciate an exploitable game.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Zcore13
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September 27th, 2015 at 2:06:38 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Except that the games being marketed are to the boomers or older who enjoyed pinball and pacman. That means kids in the 80s. That makes the minimum age for the game 45.



I'm 47. Played every pinball and arcade game there was in the 80's. Times have changed. Those games are outdated and boring compared to current games.

Will people try Pinball 1987 and FurryKat if they saw one sitting on a casino floor? Maybe. Will they sit and play for hours like slot players do? I doubt it.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
boymimbo
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September 27th, 2015 at 2:15:12 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I'm 47. Played every pinball and arcade game there was in the 80's. Times have changed. Those games are outdated and boring compared to current games.

Will people try Pinball 1987 and FurryKat if they saw one sitting on a casino floor? Maybe. Will they sit and play for hours like slot players do? I doubt it.


ZCore13



To be honest, I would play pinball if it were on a casino floor. Mind you I would rather take a bus to the Pinball HoF and give the owner $40 of my money and hang out there for an afternoon. That place is phenomenal. I wouldn't play PacMan however.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Ibeatyouraces
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September 27th, 2015 at 2:16:28 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I'm 47. Played every pinball and arcade game there was in the 80's. Times have changed. Those games are outdated and boring compared to current games...


Put a "High Speed" pinball game in my house and I may never leave.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Zcore13
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September 27th, 2015 at 2:32:29 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Put a "High Speed" pinball game in my house and I may never leave.



I'm more of a Black Knight, Terminator 2 or Fun House guy, but I'm with you. You can't compare any of those to what we are talking about on this thread.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Ibeatyouraces
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September 27th, 2015 at 3:03:24 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I'm more of a Black Knight, Terminator 2 or Fun House guy, but I'm with you. You can't compare any of those to what we are talking about on this thread.


ZCore13


A few more we liked: Heavy Metal Meltdown, The Simpson's and South Park.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
EvenBob
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September 27th, 2015 at 3:56:30 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Except that the games being marketed are to the boomers or older who enjoyed pinball and pacman. That means kids in the 80s. That makes the minimum age for the game 45.



Except most grow out of that stage
and move on. One would hope, anyway.

There's a kids game room in one of the
casinos and they have some arcade
games. Most of the kids are playing the
computer games, however.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
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September 27th, 2015 at 4:41:04 PM permalink
I'm just waiting for some clever game designer to somehow develop an interactive casino game based on beer pong.

That might attract kids the way sigma derby does.
"What, me worry?"
Zcore13
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September 27th, 2015 at 4:44:48 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I'm just waiting for some clever game designer to somehow develop an interactive casino game based on beer pong.

That might attract kids the way sigma derby does.



Similar games are coming. They are going to be more like carnival/Peter piper pizza games. Ski ball, stop the light games. They are already developed and being converted.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
EvenBob
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September 27th, 2015 at 5:00:00 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Similar games are coming. They are going to be more like carnival/Peter piper pizza games. Ski ball, stop the light games. They are already developed and being converted.
ZCore13



I'm waiting for versions of Monopoly and Clue
for multiple players. The casino won't make any
money, but that's not really the point of any
of these 'skill' games, is it. They're player oriented,
the casino only wants us to have fun. God bless em..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
boymimbo
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September 27th, 2015 at 5:56:24 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

A few more we liked: Heavy Metal Meltdown, The Simpson's and South Park.



My sister in law has Lord of the Rings at her house. Quite the addicting game.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Ahigh
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September 28th, 2015 at 12:12:00 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I wouldn't play PacMan however.






http://nanotechgaming.com/kat/paybills.mp4
aahigh.com
Ahigh
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September 28th, 2015 at 12:21:12 AM permalink
Quote: Marcus

“These early games have to be attractive to players in all different ways, including (payout) percentage,” Prater says. He expects payout rates for a skill machine to range from the Nevada minimum of 75 percent up to 110 percent, which means some skilled players would have an edge over the casino. A machine's overall payout rate will be less than 100 percent.

Read more: http://triblive.com/aande/gambling/9138587-74/skill-games-says#ixzz3n125vbxa
Follow us: @triblive on Twitter | triblive on Facebook



http://triblive.com/aande/gambling/9138587-74/skill-games-says#axzz3n0aH3vYY

Also, and it took some prodding, but the spokesman for the AGEM has finally agreed with us that emphasis on >100% payback and education are keys to getting skill based gambling to increase revenue as a result of the features of skill being incorporated into the payback.

I am very happy about this and it was a major thing that I pushed for at the AGEM meetings.

Thanks to everyone in the industry who is helping us in the push for player education.

I am hopeful that the extra disclosure in the charts as suggested by regulators who visited here to see the game is helpful for both players and operators alike you want to understand how the game adapts to each play and what the exact relationship is between score and payback percent.

In any case, we're VERY happy with where we are and where we are headed.

Click here to watch an animation that demonstrates the effect on bet amount with respect to making it easier to use skill to overcome the cost of being the boss.
aahigh.com
EvenBob
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September 28th, 2015 at 1:17:07 AM permalink
Quote: Marcus

He expects payout rates for a skill machine to range from the Nevada minimum of 75 percent up to 110 percent, which means some skilled players would have an edge over the casino.
.



At this point, the casino stops listening.

Quote: Marcus

Although NanoTech and some other companies have exhibited skill-based games, none is likely to be in a Nevada casino before spring 2016.. Prater says it might take five years for skill games to become common in casinos.



Or 2017 or 2018, or later. Or never. It might take 10
years. Or never. Time will tell. Casinos are notoriously
slow to accept anything new. They make too much
money with what they already have, if it's not broke
why fix it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
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September 28th, 2015 at 3:38:27 AM permalink


The new features on the website are awesome. So much higher quality not having to even see when noise is quoted.
aahigh.com
AxelWolf
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September 28th, 2015 at 4:35:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh




http://nanotechgaming.com/kat/paybills.mp4

I hope all that stuff isn't going on after each game. 90% of the people wont understand it. It will make it seem to complicated. There's a reason you don't see older people playing games with tons of options. It's why Wii had some appeal to people who normally wouldn't play most games. I'm not saying the information shouldn't be available, I'm just saying less going on until someone wants that information would be better.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
boymimbo
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September 28th, 2015 at 6:40:19 AM permalink
I understand what this chart is doing. It doesn't mean other players will. They will look at this and go "huh" and walk away? In the end you have a problem of attracting the wrong demographic for this game, another hurdle where people won't understand the game, and another hurdle where a few professional gamblers will take money away from the game.

Mathematically, all of this is very interesting. But in the end, isn't a successful "skill-based slot" something that is going to be like a "Wheel of Fortune" type game where people guessed letters to answer a puzzle (they had this briefly here and Canada) and was rewarded a JP spin earlier (which would have been awarded anyway, now it's just more frequent and less for the skilled player). Or something like a "Mastermind" game where you guess the solution to a puzzle, or a spin of a wheel where you can stop the spin close to the jackpot amount. That, to me, is game of skill.

This is too much: a boon to the mathematically inclined 45 year-old or older, and no appeal to anyone else. The APers will figure this out, and the general gambler will stay away, leading to a range of scores without a mid-section.

This is why I think you might be garnering some real attention on this forum and at your conferences. It may be what a small cross-section of math geeks (sorry gang, that's what we are) who are overrepresented here and at your conferences, but would have no appeal to the general population. Whether this leads to a few placements somewhere (would be wonderful) I dunno, but I think you are going down a very narrow path.

I think you need to go on the path of taking away the ability to set payouts and create a game based on skill that provides lower and more frequent payouts for skilled players and less but more volatile payouts on unskilled players. This will always of course lead to abuse as people join and leave a game with different skill sets, allowing the new player to use their greatly enhanced skill to get a more immediate and gratifying jackpot.

But your game suffers the same weakness. You could play in tandem. Player A on the same card could be a very unskilled player. Then player B "a friend" could be very skilled and then just take away all of the losses of player "A", who are in fact the same player.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Ahigh
Ahigh
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September 28th, 2015 at 9:10:46 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I hope all that stuff isn't going on after each game. 90% of the people wont understand it. It will make it seem to complicated. There's a reason you don't see older people playing games with tons of options. It's why Wii had some appeal to people who normally wouldn't play most games. I'm not saying the information shouldn't be available, I'm just saying less going on until someone wants that information would be better.

Just yes or no, do you think I didn't already think of this?

Just wondering.

We have had the discussion no fewer than 50 times over the last year to at least 50 different individuals or groups listening about how our math model works.

If you can understand the math model from what's being shown here, and you didn't understand it before, that's the goal.

The goal is not to shove this in front of each person who plays the game no matter what.

I can guarantee you that at least one person who didn't understand how our model works will understand it once they play the game and can look at how this graph changes over time.

It's not a goal to confuse dumb people who want to play slot machines. And even if it were, complicating the understanding (for example by adding a hundred lines and making the whole thing super complicated) wouldn't be any departure from a slot machine anyway.

If anything, on the confusion level, you're dead wrong! Slot players apparent *DO* want to be confused so that they feel better about the fact that they have no idea what the hell is going on.

But seriously, it sounds like you're giving me a lecture on how to make good video games, Axel. That'd be like me giving you a lecture on how you need to take advantage of casino offers.
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Ahigh
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September 28th, 2015 at 9:14:33 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Mathematically, all of this is very interesting. But in the end, isn't a successful "skill-based slot" something that is going to be like a "Wheel of Fortune" type game where people guessed letters to answer a puzzle (they had this briefly here and Canada) and was rewarded a JP spin earlier (which would have been awarded anyway, now it's just more frequent and less for the skilled player). Or something like a "Mastermind" game where you guess the solution to a puzzle, or a spin of a wheel where you can stop the spin close to the jackpot amount. That, to me, is game of skill.



No.

Quote: boymimbo

This is too much: a boon to the mathematically inclined 45 year-old or older, and no appeal to anyone else.



You are wrong, and quite to the contrary. AP's don't have to understand a lick of math in our game. If you're familiar with RAA proofs, you certainly understand the fact that you have made an obviously false overly broad general blanket statement here.

Quote: boymimbo

The APers will figure this out, and the general gambler will stay away, leading to a range of scores without a mid-section.



Today's AP's are not very likely to be AP's on our game.

Quote: boymimbo

This is why I think you might be garnering some real attention on this forum and at your conferences. It may be what a small cross-section of math geeks (sorry gang, that's what we are) who are overrepresented here and at your conferences, but would have no appeal to the general population. Whether this leads to a few placements somewhere (would be wonderful) I dunno, but I think you are going down a very narrow path.



I'm not sure you realize, but we have attention beyond this forum.

Quote: boymimbo

I think you need to go on the path of taking away the ability to set payouts and create a game based on skill that provides lower and more frequent payouts for skilled players and less but more volatile payouts on unskilled players. This will always of course lead to abuse as people join and leave a game with different skill sets, allowing the new player to use their greatly enhanced skill to get a more immediate and gratifying jackpot.

But your game suffers the same weakness. You could play in tandem. Player A on the same card could be a very unskilled player. Then player B "a friend" could be very skilled and then just take away all of the losses of player "A", who are in fact the same player.



Thanks for your input. I invite you to come to the show and see for yourself.
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TheGrimReaper13
TheGrimReaper13
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September 28th, 2015 at 10:12:41 AM permalink
I'll see you there!
So much bullshit; so little time!
rxwine
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September 28th, 2015 at 12:00:07 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I understand what this chart is doing. It doesn't mean other players will. They will look at this and go "huh" and walk away? .



Not sure about that. I'm sure lots of gamblers play machines without reading through the full instructions or even understanding them fully after they do. Heck, I was trying to figure out how a bonus paid out on a machine a couple weeks ago. You still see new variations, even though there are a lot of similar games -- or the way they work anyway.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
boymimbo
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September 28th, 2015 at 12:32:17 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

No.

You are wrong, and quite to the contrary. AP's don't have to understand a lick of math in our game. If you're familiar with RAA proofs, you certainly understand the fact that you have made an obviously false overly broad general blanket statement here.

Today's AP's are not very likely to be AP's on our game.

I'm not sure you realize, but we have attention beyond this forum.

Thanks for your input. I invite you to come to the show and see for yourself.



Thanks. You must think I'm an idiot.

So, I will say it again, there are two issues at hand: First, selling the game as itself: Pinball and a Pacman-like game. Neither of these games will be attractive to anyone under 45. Perhaps your research differs, and if it does, great.

Second is taking a completely different gaming formula and convincing the operator that players will like it and will know how to operate the game. Older ladies and gentlemen with little brains will find our opening screen very confusing. Then the slot manager must also be progressive enough to take a gamble on this new kind of game. These are both uphill challenges.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
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September 28th, 2015 at 1:24:42 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I understand what this chart is doing. It doesn't mean other players will. They will look at this and go "huh" and walk away? In the end you have a problem of attracting the wrong demographic for this game, another hurdle where people won't understand the game, and another hurdle where a few professional gamblers will take money away from the game..



Everything you say in this post is well
thought out and correct. You can tell
by Ahighs almost non response to it
that it hit him right between the eyes.

You have to back up one step, though.
It's not the players that have to be
convinced, it's the casinos first. The
casinos will look at this and go 'huh?'
and walk away. The casinos know if it
takes longer than 30 seconds to explain
a new game to players, it won't be very
popular. This game can't be explained
in 20 min.

Except for craps, even the old games can
be explained in one sentence. BJ? Whoever
gets closest to 21 wins. Roulette? Place a
bet anywhere on the layout, but the numbers
themselves pay 35/1. Bac? Bet banker or
player, if one wins, you win.

While explaining Nanotech games, players
eyes will glaze over and they'll wander
away in a daze.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
boymimbo
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September 28th, 2015 at 3:07:05 PM permalink
He probably believes that I am a critical hack who doesn't want him to succeed. Quite the contrary. If he applied the math to another type of game and didn't make it visible, it might be successful. Personally the idea of playing a PacMan slot (or Asteroids, or any other classic game, like SuperMario) machine with a skill-based bonus round where you get to play the game would be phenomenal. My wife and I for example used to play hours at a Wheel of Fortune slot which was skill-based (solving the puzzle faster gave you a prize).

But from what I have seen so far, this doesn't impress me much. It's neat and cool mind you, and I applaud Ahigh for his programming skill. Huzzah, as my daughter would say.

The trick will be selling it to a casino who will take the risk of taking it on. The marketing is amiss, the math, confusing to most SLOT players, the age group it is aiming at: older. But I'm just one middle aged dude who is making an opinion. OTOH this is a forum and I assume he wants everyone to see it and perhaps comment on it.

I realize that Ahigh thinks I am wrong, and to be fair, I am only going on the information he has presented here and I've read the brochure he linked to. But that's all I have to go on. I am obviously not a slot manager in a casino, nor am I privy to marketing studies.

What will happen to Ahigh and his company is that his idea will get bought out by someone who can market his technology and make a buck. And that's not a bad thing.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
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September 28th, 2015 at 3:40:53 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

What will happen to Ahigh and his company is that his idea will get bought out by someone who can market his technology and make a buck. And that's not a bad thing.



Best case scenario, yes. He gets his money back
and is at square one again. There is a worst case
scenario, but we won't go there.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rxwine
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September 28th, 2015 at 3:54:21 PM permalink
What's the average success rate of new games in a casino?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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September 28th, 2015 at 5:04:37 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

What's the average success rate of new games in a casino?



95% don't make it. That might be low,
it could be 98%.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Zcore13
Zcore13
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September 28th, 2015 at 5:11:57 PM permalink
The best chance these games have are a free 90 day trial. If the casino likes it, they then keep it. If it doesn't pay for its floor space it goes away. That's why you can't judge it on original installs. They are all going to be free to start.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Ahigh
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September 28th, 2015 at 5:32:23 PM permalink
Quote: TheGrimReaper13

I'll see you there!



WE ARE PUMPED!!!! CANNOT WAIT TO SEE EVERYONE!

We just announced Richard is joining our board.

http://nanotechgaming521.newswire.com/press-release/nanotech-gaming-welcomes-richard-a-baker-to-board-of-directors
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Ahigh
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September 28th, 2015 at 5:36:34 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Thanks. You must think I'm an idiot.



No and I apologize. I'm not perfect. I do hope to see you and anyone else interested in the games at the show.

Thanks, guys.
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