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AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 24th, 2015 at 10:05:49 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'm certain you're wrong. It's easy enough
to find out, wait 6 months and see how
many installations there are. Then wait
a year and see how many are left.

I'm fairly certain i'm right, but we can't judge how successful this game would or wouldn't be if it were in a big companies hands. I think IGT basically runs the show and can push anything they believe in. I believe some manufacturers are probably just cheap fillers to cut down casino costs.

I don't even think nanotech gaming was/is licensed properly to make any games for casinos. We have no clue why this game hasn't had an install yet. Reputation alone may be a factor.

As far as I know, no one in NV has any skill games yet?

Personally I didn't believe this game needs to be considered a skill game. No skill is required to stay above the state minimum.

From my understanding the game can be set up where there's no +EV.

It's a great game, with a few tweaks (possibly the costs/ profit sharing is to much) I think it would do well.

You should be fair. You haven't played it or even seen it in person. It was the most new and interesting thing at the show last year. I seen something else that was skill based like Angry birds and scrabble stuff.

Eventually we will see skill based games I'm sure some will be AP'able. That just wont be the highlight.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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September 24th, 2015 at 10:08:48 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

When UX was marketed, there's zero chance they said "People have an advantage on x% of the plays! Isn't that Awesome!"

I said something like that in the pinball thread when people pointed out other pooling AP slots gained traction. I'm certain they didn't mention AP's.

I'm getting the feeling they would rather fail than back off the Advantage Play marketing campaign.
It seems as if they want people to embrace Advantage Play machines or nothing.

I like it from an AP and personal perspective. A business perspective, I don't get it.

There's so few advantage players and so many industry AP haters.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mission146
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September 24th, 2015 at 10:43:18 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

Statement one is correct.
Statement two is debateable.
Statement three is false.



Statement three cannot possibly be false because of my qualifier, but I know what you meant. :)


Quote:

We get the concept. If you, and AHigh, and stv could get past the mental block that we don't get the concept, then maybe you could get the concept that the phrase "Cut off their nose to spite their face" describes casino management to a T.



I wasn't referring to you, you get the concept.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
EvenBob
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September 24th, 2015 at 10:51:07 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

They know AP's can win. From what I can tell, they don't care that AP's can win.



I have a lot of respect for you, Pierce. But
when you make statements like this, it's
like you're you've lost your way and we'll
have to send Axel in to reinstruct you.
And nobody wants that..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Mission146
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September 24th, 2015 at 11:25:37 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I have a lot of respect for you, Pierce. But
when you make statements like this, it's
like you're you've lost your way and we'll
have to send Axel in to reinstruct you.
And nobody wants that..



Least of all me, he's tough!!!

I'm talking about certain machines, though. As we've heard on here, a few casinos care about UX. Must-Hits, though? We've had surveillance people on here who have even said they pay little attention to machines. I think the trouble some people find is a result of how they're doing it rather than what they're doing.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 12:31:11 AM permalink
Wow. So much interest and discussion about our math model! Keep it coming folks!

Quote: sabre


Let me give you two scenarios

1) Game returns theoretical $1,000 per day to casino. Nobody can play the game at an advantage.

2) Game returns theoretical $1,500 per day to casino. Additionally, Joe Bob Smartypants can win $100 a day if he stalks the machine 24/7 and plays it only when he has an edge.



Games that use the NanoTech Advantage do not fall into either of these two scenarios. If Joe Bob Smartypants is very skilled, he can win theoretical advantage but that still doesn't guarantee that he wins his bet. Also, assuming that Joe Bob is always the best, he will have a theoretical advantage whenever someone else of lesser skill has a disadvantage game regardless of whether either of them win or lose their bets.


Quote: EvenBob

It's actually 100% and here's why. If a
casino knows an AP can get a skill
advantage, no matter how you sugar
coat it or reassuringly explain it, they
will automatically assume an AP will
figure out how to get a BIG skill
advantage and they will lose money.



Let's assume Joe Bob is actually a cyborg with a computer brain and can play PERFECTLY every game, beating the high score by 1 point every time. It's true, that as long as there have been enough plays from other lower-skilled players Joe Bob will be awarded this theoretical advantage (again, still doesn't guarantee he wins his bet). Eventually, as less and less theoretical advantage is available to be awarded, the payback of the game will trend towards the payback as desired by the casino and will never exceed that which is desired by the casino.

Quote: AxelWolf

I get that the casino will always have an advantage on the game. Sometimes AP's will have an advantage.

The +EV money comes from the ploppys. The ploppys are people who would normally spend that extra +EV money in the casino. Skilled players take that money and walk out the door. Therefore the casino makes less money.


AP's will only have an advantage if there are enough ploppys (who give up EV). Skilled players do not take money, they take theoretical advantage. The casino doesn't make less money.

Actually we expect that the casino will make MORE money because there is MORE incentive to share your knowledge and encourage lesser-skilled players to play at the same location as you!

We don't blame casinos for being scared, we will educate them.

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
RonC
RonC
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September 25th, 2015 at 4:16:26 AM permalink
Quote: stv2049

AP's will only have an advantage if there are enough ploppys (who give up EV). Skilled players do not take money, they take theoretical advantage. The casino doesn't make less money.

Actually we expect that the casino will make MORE money because there is MORE incentive to share your knowledge and encourage lesser-skilled players to play at the same location as you!

We don't blame casinos for being scared, we will educate them.

STV



So you are expecting APs like Axel to get non-APs like me excited about a game so he can win some of the money I lose? Most APs seem to like staying in the shadows, away from the prying eyes of security and all those who would mess with their ability to AP. I'm not sure they will be a great advocacy group for more to play the game unless the do it in ways that keep them out of the limelight.

I am not "down" on your game, I just don't understand all the emphasis on a group that seem like it would rather not be acknowledged too loudly--APs. They constantly battle with the casino at the blackjack table; in spite of them taking a very small portion of the winnings away from the casino, the casinos hassle them and ban them. We've heard tales of APs being hassled making other plays.

I see how your games COULD work and even become a popular type of game with some but I can't see how openly courting APs will HELP it work. If the game is playable at an advantage, they will find it.

Best of luck to you!!
Ahigh
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September 25th, 2015 at 5:22:38 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

So you are expecting APs like Axel to get non-APs like me excited about a game so he can win some of the money I lose? Most APs seem to like staying in the shadows, away from the prying eyes of security and all those who would mess with their ability to AP. I'm not sure they will be a great advocacy group for more to play the game unless the do it in ways that keep them out of the limelight.

I am not "down" on your game, I just don't understand all the emphasis on a group that seem like it would rather not be acknowledged too loudly--APs. They constantly battle with the casino at the blackjack table; in spite of them taking a very small portion of the winnings away from the casino, the casinos hassle them and ban them. We've heard tales of APs being hassled making other plays.

I see how your games COULD work and even become a popular type of game with some but I can't see how openly courting APs will HELP it work. If the game is playable at an advantage, they will find it.

Best of luck to you!!



Nope. We expect the casino to get the house edge multiplied by the bet amount on average.

What the players do it really doesn't matter to the casino's expectations any more than a regular slot machine or table game that has no advantaged bets.

It's really and truly simple.

It's provable that the game can be beaten.

But you can't prove that you will be able to beat the game in the future. Only that you will have a fair chance to do so providing other players who have a chance to collectively be less skilled than you are and that you play long enough for your edge to matter more than your variance.

Failure to execute is the fly in the ointment for the overconfident player. One big bet with a negative swing, like any other AP game, you're going to regret the lack of discipline if you slip and get emotional. There will not be guarantees, just the opportunity for positive EV on each game.

But as far as a master plan of personalities and exactly how it's going to play out, it doesn't matter.

It would be like the guy who invented roulette being asked which sequence of outcomes he expected and how he deals with it.

He doesn't care. Every bet has the same HE%, and you get the HE% multiplied by the bet amount and that's it.

Our game is no different except that we have an additional mechanic to trade value between players according to their skill and how much payback is from skill and how much is from luck.

Our new game is going to make some of this more clear, but we're not releasing all the details until the show.

We appreciate everyone's interest very much. Even the critics! ;-)
aahigh.com
sabre
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September 25th, 2015 at 7:21:19 AM permalink
Quote: stv2049


Games that use the NanoTech Advantage do not fall into either of these two scenarios. If Joe Bob Smartypants is very skilled, he can win theoretical advantage but that still doesn't guarantee that he wins his bet. Also, assuming that Joe Bob is always the best, he will have a theoretical advantage whenever someone else of lesser skill has a disadvantage game regardless of whether either of them win or lose their bets.



I don't know why you keep pointing out that he's not guaranteed to win. We know that. That's why we're talking about theoretical edge.

What you just described is exactly scenario 2. I don't know how you say it isn't. If Bob is a great player and only plays after a bunch of terrible players, then Joe Bob is going to have a theoretical edge during his play. Joe Bob is going to win $100 theoretical each day. Some days he'll lose, more often he'll win, his long term average is going to be $100 positive per day.

The casino will take scenario 1 every time. Doesn't matter that they'll make less money. They'd rather set a pile of cash on fire than let an AP take a small portion.

The more I think about it, I'm actually stunned that you can open your reply to me saying that scenario 2 doesn't describe your game, and then literally every word you type after that validates what I said.

I get it. You wrote an algorithm. Your Nanotech Advantage model. You're super proud of it. You want everyone to see how great it is. But casinos not only don't care, they'll actively reject your product because of it. It doesn't mean you can't use it in a successful product, but you literally can't tell them about it. Because that will be the end. They aren't going to engage you in discussion so you can "educate" them.
SOOPOO
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September 25th, 2015 at 7:22:33 AM permalink
Guys... what is the minimum bet you expect someone to be able to make? What is the minimum amount of time to resolve that bet? Is there a maximum amount of time to resolve that bet? What is the highest multiple someone can win on any one bet?
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 9:26:12 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Guys... what is the minimum bet you expect someone to be able to make? What is the minimum amount of time to resolve that bet? Is there a maximum amount of time to resolve that bet? What is the highest multiple someone can win on any one bet?



1. We expect that casinos will set minimum and maximum bet and win to whatever they're comfortable with. We suggest a combination minimum bet + House Edge that returns $1/minute.

2. You can choose to collide with an enemy or simply wait for one to catch you. So far we've observed games as short as 18-20 seconds.

3. Our longest observed game has been 92 seconds. In CasinoKat we're shooting for an average game time of 30 seconds.

4. Again, we expect casinos to set these minimums/maximums. We have our defaults set to $5/$50000

We suggest default settings for CasinoKat at $5 minimum bet and 10% House Edge. With an average game time of 30 seconds, that gives us $1 theoretical win per minute. We have small/medium/large bet denominations tied to small/medium/large House Edges that blend smoothly between the three settings. In keeping with the $1/min theoretical win, we imagine that a medium and large bet/HE would be $20/2.5% and $50/1%.

Thanks for the questions!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 9:44:54 AM permalink
Quote: sabre

I don't know why you keep pointing out that he's not guaranteed to win. We know that. That's why we're talking about theoretical edge.

What you just described is exactly scenario 2. I don't know how you say it isn't. If Bob is a great player and only plays after a bunch of terrible players, then Joe Bob is going to have a theoretical edge during his play. Joe Bob is going to win $100 theoretical each day. Some days he'll lose, more often he'll win, his long term average is going to be $100 positive per day.

The casino will take scenario 1 every time. Doesn't matter that they'll make less money. They'd rather set a pile of cash on fire than let an AP take a small portion.

The more I think about it, I'm actually stunned that you can open your reply to me saying that scenario 2 doesn't describe your game, and then literally every word you type after that validates what I said.

I get it. You wrote an algorithm. Your Nanotech Advantage model. You're super proud of it. You want everyone to see how great it is. But casinos not only don't care, they'll actively reject your product because of it. It doesn't mean you can't use it in a successful product, but you literally can't tell them about it. Because that will be the end. They aren't going to engage you in discussion so you can "educate" them.



Maybe we need to get away from using the terms "AP" and "Advantage Player" for the current negative connotations.

Perhaps a better descriptive terms would be "SP" for "Skilled Player".

The main difference I see between AP and SP is that an AP ALWAYS will have a theoretical advantage when playing a game (take the simple example of Video Poker) if they demonstrate 'optimal strategy'. However, in our games (Vegas2047 pinball and CasinoKat) while 'optimal strategy' or 'perfect play' is something we account for (remember Joe Bob the cyborg?) and protect the casino from, we observe that a "Skilled Player" CANNOT demonstrate this consistently game after game.

The bottom line for our simple math model is that yes, we're super proud of it and we do want everyone to see how great it is. Our objective observations and analysis of the gambling math proves that the NanoTech Advantage will return the House Edge to the casino regardless of who plays the game or how it's played. We know that our math model allows SPs to enjoy an advantage on individual bets, and that those Skilled Players should choose to bet bigger to capitalize on that possible advantage.

Finally, we know that money talks, and that a field trial with an earnings report is exactly what's needed to put that money where our mouth is. Once casinos learn about how much our games hold per day, they won't care to be "educated", they'll simply make room on the floor.

Keep the discussion going!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
GWAE
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September 25th, 2015 at 9:47:49 AM permalink
Maybe I missed it but how does the game for APing work exactly. It seems like if you beat the prior score then you win? Is that all there is to it. Score is 101. score 101 and you win 2 for 1. Score 102 and win again? If this is the case does the score reset at some point? What if someone scored 34 million, then there would be no winners for the rest of the day? If the first player scores a billion then no one will play it until it resets.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
QuasiIntellectu
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September 25th, 2015 at 10:49:40 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Is this a Twilight Zone wager,
as that's the only place any of that could happen.

I saw one of these things in a liquidation store ten years ago. The writing on the box was all Chinese. The box showed a couple other models. A slot machine about stopping the reels one by one with the buttons.

Expensive piece of junk. Reminds me of Shark Tank episodes, when the contestants who spend everything but are told to stop, stop, stop. The women sharks start crying. Take it out behind the barn and shoot it.
... it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge.
SOOPOO
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September 25th, 2015 at 10:51:50 AM permalink
Quote: stv2049

1. We expect that casinos will set minimum and maximum bet and win to whatever they're comfortable with. We suggest a combination minimum bet + House Edge that returns $1/minute.

2. You can choose to collide with an enemy or simply wait for one to catch you. So far we've observed games as short as 18-20 seconds.

3. Our longest observed game has been 92 seconds. In CasinoKat we're shooting for an average game time of 30 seconds.

4. Again, we expect casinos to set these minimums/maximums. We have our defaults set to $5/$50000

We suggest default settings for CasinoKat at $5 minimum bet and 10% House Edge. With an average game time of 30 seconds, that gives us $1 theoretical win per minute. We have small/medium/large bet denominations tied to small/medium/large House Edges that blend smoothly between the three settings. In keeping with the $1/min theoretical win, we imagine that a medium and large bet/HE would be $20/2.5% and $50/1%.

Thanks for the questions!

STV



I don't think you understood my 4th question. But in reading other comments I'm guessing it is a game that pays even money for all wins?

My guess it will be hard for you to develop a following amongst us ploppies!
It sounds like the house edge against a newbie just learning the game would be 20+ %? I think the quick and consistent losing amongst average and below average players will make it tough to 'hook' many players.
Maybe you can answer this... at the $5 level, if I play the game with my eyes closed, what would the house edge be on the setting that benefits skill the most?
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 10:56:57 AM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Maybe I missed it but how does the game for APing work exactly. It seems like if you beat the prior score then you win? Is that all there is to it. Score is 101. score 101 and you win 2 for 1. Score 102 and win again? If this is the case does the score reset at some point? What if someone scored 34 million, then there would be no winners for the rest of the day? If the first player scores a billion then no one will play it until it resets.



The NanoTech Advantage math model compares your score and bet amount to all previous scores and bet amounts. This gives you a "BEAT%" which is weighted by the bet amount - larger bets carry more weight.

Achieving a score with a BEAT% of exactly 50% will return exactly the payback set by the House Edge.

Whether you win or lose your bet is also determined by your bet amount and win amount (both are adjustable by the player within casino minimum and maximums) the House Edge, and the effect of Skill (also adjustable by the player) on the outcome. Getting a top score does not guarantee that you'll win your bet, just like playing Video Poker optimal strategy does not guarantee you'll win an individual bet.

In practice, the score need not ever be reset; the scores we're seeing for CasinoKat range from 0-36000 points with an average of about 10000 points over hundreds of plays.

The effect of a very Skilled Player putting up top scores simply means that the average score needed to get an above-average payback increases a little bit.

Our math model is balanced, fair, and as transparent as possible (screenshots coming!)

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
GWAE
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September 25th, 2015 at 11:06:04 AM permalink
I don't get how it is AP able long term. I get it that if you are better than average then you will win more often but the more you win, the higher you are going to make the average which makes it tougher to win.

Do you know what score you need prior to playing in order to win?

I can see someone playing it once and being so far away from a winning score that they quit playing.

I hope you succeed as I think it would be fun to have a section of a casino that looks like an arcade. Throw in a few coin pushers and claw machines and it is complete. I would love to play air hockey for money, or bubble hockey.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
EvenBob
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September 25th, 2015 at 11:28:47 AM permalink
Quote: sabre


The more I think about it, I'm actually stunned that you can open your reply to me saying that scenario 2 doesn't describe your game, and then literally every word you type after that validates what I said.



You noticed that too.

Quote: sabre

I get it. You wrote an algorithm. Your Nanotech Advantage model. You're super proud of it. You want everyone to see how great it is. But casinos not only don't care, they'll actively reject your product because of it. It doesn't mean you can't use it in a successful product, but you literally can't tell them about it. Because that will be the end. They aren't going to engage you in discussion so you can "educate" them.



It's called 'welcome to the real world and
not the world as you want it to be.' It's
beating craps by setting the dice all over
again. Somebody will get educated here
and it's not the casino.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 11:38:20 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I don't think you understood my 4th question. But in reading other comments I'm guessing it is a game that pays even money for all wins?

My guess it will be hard for you to develop a following amongst us ploppies!
It sounds like the house edge against a newbie just learning the game would be 20+ %? I think the quick and consistent losing amongst average and below average players will make it tough to 'hook' many players.
Maybe you can answer this... at the $5 level, if I play the game with my eyes closed, what would the house edge be on the setting that benefits skill the most?



The player may adjust the bet amount, win amount, and effect of skill to minimum and maximum settings chosen by the casino. It's easy to make an even-money bet.

The House Edge is fixed and only changes if you increase/decrease your bet amount. For your example of a $5 wager, we suggest a 10% HE. I wrote examples above of lowering the HE for an increase in bet amount - 2.5% HE at $20 and 1% at $50 - still gives the House a theoretical hold of $1 per minute.

In Nevada, we have to ensure that our game returns the state minimum payback of 75% - we use this as a safety net since it's obvious that in some games, for an individual wager, you can expect far less than that (think of drawing 5 cards every hand in Video Poker).

Using $5 bet and 10% House Edge and our NanoTech Advantage math model with maximum skill effect (and a database of previous bets and scores), we can map the range of your skilled performances onto the payback range of 75% to 105%; you can see that the average RTP is 90%.

I suggest if you're going to play CasinoKat with your eyes closed, you turn off the effect of skill - your payback will be 90%. What's the house edge on Video Poker if you play with your eyes closed?

If you're skilled enough to 'follow the dots' (kinda like playing a super-simple blackjack strategy of always stand) you'll average around 90% payback. If you take the time to learn the game, watch other people play and how their strategies work or don't work, and practice, you'll gradually improve your skill so that your performances are above-average on average.

Keep the questions coming!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 11:46:40 AM permalink
BTW, you can study up about the game mechanics and scoring with this brochure PDF:
http://nanotechgaming.com/casinokat.pdf
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
Ayecarumba
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September 25th, 2015 at 12:04:15 PM permalink
I would be concerned that the base game is interesting and entertaining enough to attract players in the first place. There is a learning curve for each new game, and the "cost" of that education in sub-optimally played games will have a big effect on a games long term prospects. An average of 30 seconds per game seems way too quick unless there are plenty of opportunities to grab bonuses. It's a turn off to lose because you lack skill. Why keep trying if you don't see immediate improvement? Entertaining play has to be the answer. If it isn't fun, why pay?

As I recall from the pinball game, a player's score determines an additional percentage that is added to the base chance that the original wager will win. For example, if the base chance to win was 90% (which a blindfolded, or very unskilled player would get with a score of zero), a super high score could push the "win" portion of the pie chart to the casino determined max of 95%. An RNG determined spin of the pie chart determines if a winning or losing slice comes up, resolving the wager. Does the Kat game operate the same way?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
EvenBob
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September 25th, 2015 at 12:26:08 PM permalink
edited
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 12:44:09 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

As I recall from the pinball game, a player's score determines an additional percentage that is added to the base chance that the original wager will win. For example, if the base chance to win was 90% (which a blindfolded, or very unskilled player would get with a score of zero), a super high score could push the "win" portion of the pie chart to the casino determined max of 95%. An RNG determined spin of the pie chart determines if a winning or losing slice comes up, resolving the wager. Does the Kat game operate the same way?


Yes, player score determines a percentage of theoretical that is added OR SUBTRACTED to the base chance that the original wager will win IF the effect of skill is selected. In this example, just assume maximum effect of skill.

You're confusing me with 'base chance to win' of 90%. If you bet $100 to win $10 with NO house edge, your 'base chance to win' is about 91%.

The Bet Wheel is shown while you adjust your bet amount and win amount, and shows your 'base chance to win' with the house edge factored it. The bet wheel DOES NOT show your expected value or payback, though we show you that value separately.

Earning the top score under certain conditions (existing database of scores, available theoretical to award, large bet amount, small win amount, house edge, and minimum/maximum house settings) CAN allow you to ELIMINATE your chance to lose a bet, i.e. 100% chance to win!

CasinoKat uses the same math model that "Vegas2047" pinball uses, and we've added a graph and a separate skill/luck menu screen to help players visualize all of this math. We're holding off publishing the screenshots of this in action, but I'm sure they'll be up the first day of G2E if not before.

An example to illustrate this:
bet amount: $100
win amount: $10
house edge: 1%
skill effect: 11.2% skill / 88.8% luck
minimum payback for worst score (90 points): 87.96%
worst chance to win: 80%
average payback for average score (14942 points): 99%
average/base chance to win: 90%
maximum payback for best score (36060 points): 110.04%
best chance to win: 100%
score needed for 100% payback: 15722 points

In this case, if the player scores 36060 points or more, they are 100% guaranteed to win $10 from their $100 bet. Keep in mind that this is our development cabinet. We have hundreds of plays with a range of scores and bet amounts, and Aaron and I are the ones playing primarily.

It's absolutely necessary to make all of this data available to the player who wants to understand how the NanoTech Advantage works. For the player who just wants to play the game though, they can simply go with the default settings and just keep playing the game!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
EvenBob
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September 25th, 2015 at 5:59:46 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

It's a turn off to lose because you lack skill.



The main attraction of slots is, it takes zero
skill and you have a chance to win on every
single spin. You can sit at a slot and not
think about what you're doing and this has a
great amount of appeal.

I can see a small number of people playing
a skill based machine game, but not enough
to make it viable. 80% of those interested
will play it once, realize they have not enough
skill to win, and wander away. When the other
20% realize how much money they have to
invest to develop the skill, they will wander
away also.

If I can figure this out, why do you think a
casino, who does this for a living, won't
be able to.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
Ahigh
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September 25th, 2015 at 8:53:08 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The main attraction of slots is, it takes zero
skill and you have a chance to win on every
single spin. You can sit at a slot and not
think about what you're doing and this has a
great amount of appeal.

I can see a small number of people playing
a skill based machine game, but not enough
to make it viable. 80% of those interested
will play it once, realize they have not enough
skill to win, and wander away. When the other
20% realize how much money they have to
invest to develop the skill, they will wander
away also.

If I can figure this out, why do you think a
casino, who does this for a living, won't
be able to.



You did register that you can turn the skill off, right?

Certainly you're not saying there are exactly zero players who want a chance for positive EV from their skill?

Because I'm a player. So you'd be wrong about that.
aahigh.com
EvenBob
EvenBob
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September 25th, 2015 at 9:36:05 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

You did register that you can turn the skill off, right?
.



When you turn the skill off does it pay off
like a slot machine, then? Do you have a
chance to go up and down and even leave
with a big jackpot, like with a slot? I don't
play slots, my wife does. I put $20 in a $5
slot once, and won $2500 on the second
pull. Do your machines do that when skill
is turned off?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
stv2049
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 9:44:41 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The main attraction of slots is, it takes zero
skill and you have a chance to win on every
single spin. You can sit at a slot and not
think about what you're doing and this has a
great amount of appeal.


The main attraction of our games is, skill
matters and you have a chance to win on every
single game. You can sit and play CasinoKat
and have FUN doing so, and we think this has a
great amount of appeal!

Quote: EvenBob


I can see a small number of people playing
a skill based machine game, but not enough
to make it viable. 80% of those interested
will play it once, realize they have not enough
skill to win, and wander away. When the other
20% realize how much money they have to
invest to develop the skill, they will wander
away also.


We can see a huge number of people playing
our skill based machines, way more than
anyone expects. 80% of those interested
will play it once, realize that their skill affects the
outcome, and refuse to leave. When the other
20% realize how much money the other 80%
are investing, they will invest a little more to
develop their skill so that they can benefit
from the lesser-skilled majority!

Quote: EvenBob


If I can figure this out, why do you think a
casino, who does this for a living, won't
be able to.


It's clear that you haven't yet figured out how or why this idea will work. We expect that casinos will struggle to figure out how or why also, but again, when we demonstrate how our games earn, they won't care!

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, EvenBob. Keep 'em coming!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
stv2049
stv2049
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September 25th, 2015 at 9:52:39 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

When you turn the skill off does it pay off
like a slot machine, then? Do you have a
chance to go up and down and even leave
with a big jackpot, like with a slot? I don't
play slots, my wife does. I put $20 in a $5
slot once, and won $2500 on the second
pull. Do your machines do that when skill
is turned off?


You can adjust your bet amount and win amount independently with skill off or on. You can make a $5 bet to win $2500 if you like, or $5 to win $1.

You have the same chance to go up and down and even leave with a big jackpot.

With skill turned off, our machines are no more likely to pay off than a slot machine with the same payback.

Why don't you keep playing slots if they pay out for you like that? Seems like you've got that lucky touch!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
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September 25th, 2015 at 11:03:06 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049



Why don't you keep playing slots if they pay out for you like that? Seems like you've got that lucky touch!

STV



That was 15 years ago and I haven't put
another dime in a slot since that win.
You're quite a gambling novice, aren't
you, to make a statement like that.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
EvenBob
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September 25th, 2015 at 11:14:35 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049

We expect that casinos will struggle to figure out how or why also, but again, when we demonstrate how our games earn, they won't care!
STV



I'm sure it will be a cakewalk, in 6 months
the installs will tell the story. I gotta tell
you, though, a few people here understand
what you're saying but I don't have a clue.

I'm a player, all I care about is if I can make
money. These are young peoples games and
in casinos, they have no cash. There are no
games designed for the young because
they are a casinos least desirable gambler.
They have zero disposable income, they
are always struggling, especially now. But
you guys are the experts, what do I know.
I've only been going to casinos since 1975,
I'm just a rookie.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MrV
MrV
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September 26th, 2015 at 12:04:55 AM permalink
Quote:

These are young peoples games and
in casinos, they have no cash...They have zero disposable income, they
are always struggling, especially now. .



Pshaw.

You don't get out much late at night in Las Vegas, do you?

The casinos have hit it out of the park catering to the clubbers, and their unquenchable interest in PARTYING.

The clubs / casinos are raking it in: bottle service, admission fees, drinks, food: big money, for sure.

The bills are being paid by the same people you say "have zero disposable income:" young people.

No, they'd rather party, drink and chase ass than watch a ball spin around a roulette wheel.

Curmudgeons need not apply.

This group may or may not gravitate to the game in question, but they most certainly spend money when they are in town.
"What, me worry?"
EvenBob
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 12:34:34 AM permalink
Quote: MrV


The casinos have hit it out of the park catering to the clubbers, and their unquenchable interest in PARTYING.
.



The vast majority of gaming revenue comes
from middle aged and older people. Like
you.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 26th, 2015 at 12:45:56 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Least of all me, he's tough!!!

I'm talking about certain machines, though. As we've heard on here, a few casinos care about UX. Must-Hits, though? We've had surveillance people on here who have even said they pay little attention to machines. I think the trouble some people find is a result of how they're doing it rather than what they're doing.

Stop right there. Until there's verification they are what they claim to be(especially surveillance) it should be considered bupkis.

I don't think anyone should lend any merit to any claims made by supposed casino employees. If I remember correctly none of them knew of griffin. One supposed pit supervisor guy admitted FK'ing players over, simply for not tipping. He even said he would make faults claims of cheating to cheat players out of comps and peg them as cheaters.

Then we had B9 fooling people giving advice as a host.

Mission, I agree some casinos turn a blind eye to some APable games, some don't.

Surveillance and casinos who spend time messing around with the average(even the above average) AP's are idiots. Because meanwhile guys like Ivey, Johnson and karas are taking them for Millions.

As it stands now 99.99% of the casinos don't embrace AP's. Some casinos actually hate AP's, some simply tolerate them.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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September 26th, 2015 at 1:24:04 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'm sure it will be a cakewalk, in 6 months
the installs will tell the story. I gotta tell
you, though, a few people here understand
what you're saying but I don't have a clue.

I'm a player, all I care about is if I can make
money. These are young peoples games and
in casinos, they have no cash. There are no
games designed for the young because
they are a casinos least desirable gambler.
They have zero disposable income, they
are always struggling, especially now. But
you guys are the experts, what do I know.
I've only been going to casinos since 1975,
I'm just a rookie.

I think you need to revisit the average age(31 but that's including kids, casino don't allow kids) and amount of people who play video games. Adding video game type gaming to casinos is a smart move. You may be looking at this short term (6 months is hardly a reasonable time frame). Like it or not, It's coming.

As far as I can see their concepts, designs and quality is all top notch and interesting. Hopefully Nano tech gaming will be the pioneers. Hopefully not the pioneers that have arrows in their backs.

They really added some interesting features to the pinball. From what I can see they though about almost everything.

It can be skill or non skill.

Adjustable pay-scale. How many games do you know of that allows you to pick your pay-out and odds for the same bet? $100 bet to pay $100 if you win, or bet $100 to pay $1000++ if you win.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
EvenBob
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 1:28:31 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf



As it stands now 99.99% of the casinos don't embrace AP's. Some casinos actually hate AP's, .



Except for the casinos that are about
to weepingly embrace the Nanotech
machines. They love AP's after it was
carefully explained to them that AP's
are to be encouraged, not hated.

It's a new world out there..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ahigh
Ahigh
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September 26th, 2015 at 6:46:02 AM permalink
I see blocked people.

aahigh.com
AxelWolf
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September 26th, 2015 at 7:14:25 AM permalink
Ahigh

I'm curious when you believe you will have an install/trial?

How will that work?

If a casino called you tomorrow and they wanted the pinball game, what would have to happen? Would it take days/weeks/months?

Can you guys make and install them yourself for the casinos?

Do you have units available?

Who will make the games for the casinos? Do you have someone in place willing to produce and license them?

What's the main reason we haven't seen one yet(at least a trial)? Are casinos mainly reluctant because of cost or something else?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MrV
MrV
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:27:08 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The vast majority of gaming revenue comes
from middle aged and older people. Like
you.



Nice try at deflection, but I'm on to your ways, curmudgeon.

You pontificated from your barcalounger that kids today "have no cash...They have zero disposable income"

I correctly pointed out that is a false statement, as exemplified by the rising importance of clubbing (and pool parties) with the young folks in Las Vegas today.

The point I made is that these youngsters, whom you falsely claim to be broke as a joke, do in fact have and spend copious amounts of money in Las Vegas.

But don't just take it from me: do a little fact checking: see

FWIW, I spend more time listening to EDM from the likes of Tiesto and Calvin Harris at home than I do gambling: I certainly see the attraction.
"What, me worry?"
stv2049
stv2049
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September 26th, 2015 at 8:43:06 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

FWIW, I spend more time listening to EDM from the likes of Tiesto and Calvin Harris at home than I do gambling: I certainly see the attraction.


It's no Secret, we like Tiësto too!
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 12:22:42 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I see blocked people.



So what. We all see who we've blocked.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 12:44:45 PM permalink
Quote: MrV



The point I made is that these youngsters, whom you falsely claim to be broke as a joke, do in fact have and spend copious amounts of money in Las Vegas.
.



You seem to be confused. Pool parties and nightclubs
are not on the gaming floor. If you're young and have
$150 to spend, where will you get the most bang for
your buck, at a pool party for hours, or at a slot or
table game for 20 min.

70% of the visitors to Vegas were over 40 in 2012. 15%
of visitors were 21-29. Those are the demographic for
these machines, the kids with no gambling money.

But that's just Vegas, which has a fraction of the total
casinos in the US. Get out of the party town and the
number of young people visiting casinos plummets.
Go into the average Indian casino in the middle of
the week and it's 90% people over 50.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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September 26th, 2015 at 1:23:30 PM permalink
The average Indian casino is in the middle of the sticks with no young people around within miles.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
stv2049
stv2049
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September 26th, 2015 at 1:53:35 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

70% of the visitors to Vegas were over 40 in 2012. 15%
of visitors were 21-29. Those are the demographic for
these machines, the kids with no gambling money.

Almost correct, and a little outdated.
Here are the statistics from the Las Vegas Visitor Profile Study 2014

Proportion of visitors who were 40 years old or older: (page 7)
2010: 71%
2011: 70%
2012: 58%
2013: 58%
2014: 57%

Visitor age 21-29: (page 81)
2010: 10%
2011: 12%
2012: 19%
2013: 15%
2014: 17%

Another interesting report to consider is the Slot Market Assessment published by the Association of Gaming Equipment Manufacturers (AGEM) which saw slot machine handle and win decreasing over the last 5 years, while slot machine hold increased (page 9)

It may be true that casino's "core demographic" has historically focused on the age 50+ female, but with changing visitor demographics, and the number of slot machines in decline over the past 10 years (at least in Nevada) gaming manufacturers are looking for a stimulus.

CasinoKat to the rescue!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
MrV
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September 26th, 2015 at 2:48:32 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You seem to be confused. Pool parties and nightclubs
are not on the gaming floor. If you're young and have
$150 to spend, where will you get the most bang for
your buck, at a pool party for hours, or at a slot or
table game for 20 min.



I'm not confused at all: in fact, I agree with your above comment, except the party crowd have more than $150 to spend: they're not hurting for money at all; they arrive from all over the world, but primarily from So Cal on the weekends, flush with cash and ready to let loose.

Young folks these days are still coming to Las Vegas, same as ever, but instead of coming to gamble and watch a stage show they are coming to dance in a mega-club to tunes spun by a famous DJ, wanting only to party and hook up: gambling is secondary.

Your comment that " they have no cash...They have zero disposable income" was clearly incorrect.

They may be broke in Michigan, but not out West: things are hopping out here.
"What, me worry?"
teddys
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September 26th, 2015 at 4:59:05 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Your comment that " they have no cash...They have zero disposable income" was clearly incorrect.

They may be broke in Michigan, but not out West: things are hopping out here.

There is a not-insignificant portion of the American millennial generation coming up that does not need to work and will not work, ever.

We are in the midst the greatest transfer of generational wealth in human history.

Just go to the Cosmopolitan on any major weekend and witness the phenomenon in action. Kid in action at slot machine or table, on phone to financial advisor: "No. I need that wire transfer to my checking account completed YESTERDAY." (Actual overheard conversation).

Most if not all of these people are in New York and Los Angeles. Some are in Texas. A smattering in Chicago and South Florida.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 6:07:31 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The average Indian casino is in the middle of the sticks with no young people around within miles.



LOL! Are you kidding? The biggest Indian casino
in MI is Soaring Eagle and it's in a college town
the gambling age is 18. You see all these
cute little girls wandering around trying to make
their $20 go as far as possible. Four Winds is
20 min from South Bend. Firekeepers is in
Battle Creek. Gun Lake is 20 min from the
2nd biggest city in MI. There are tiny casinos
up north, but nobody lives up there, young
or old.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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September 26th, 2015 at 6:23:18 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

LOL! Are you kidding? The biggest Indian casino
in MI is Soaring Eagle and it's in a college town
the gambling age is 18. You see all these
cute little girls wandering around trying to make
their $20 go as far as possible. Four Winds is
20 min from South Bend. Firekeepers is in
Battle Creek. Gun Lake is 20 min from the
2nd biggest city in MI. There are tiny casinos
up north, but nobody lives up there, young
or old.


Read again. I said the AVERAGE Indian casino. Not all of them.

And I was just at Snoring Eagle two nights ago. The place was infested with college kids.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 6:23:52 PM permalink
Quote: MrV


They may be broke in Michigan, but not out West: things are hopping out here.



Yeah, no..

This shows the average salaries for people
under 34 is almost identical for LA and
W MI.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-average-salary-of-millennials-2015-3

BUT, the cost of living in LA is soooo much higher,
they have far less spending money than people
making the same salary here. The average salary
for under 34 is $35K in LA. The average in W MI
is $34,000. The chart shows how much more
expensive it is to live in LA. How people can
afford to live in Calif is beyond me. The cost
of living difference is stunning. The MI person
is $11,000 better off than his counter part in LA.



http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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September 26th, 2015 at 6:28:20 PM permalink
Quote: stv2049


Visitor age 21-29: (page 81)
2014: 17%



And 92% of them have no real money
to spend gambling.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
beachbumbabs
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September 26th, 2015 at 6:55:02 PM permalink
I have to disagree about the target demographic for videogame-based themes. I just barely missed it when Pong came out in arcades around 1974, and I'm 56. (I loved it, but I was hooked - and remain hooked - on pinball machines and mechanical games rather than video arcades from several years previous to that.) I would say that everybody now under 50 was exposed to videogaming (and a large percentage of them hooked) at that critical 10-14 age, when you develop your heaviest identification with music, games, movie stars, and other social trends.

I don't know if Kat is the answer, but I do think they've got a large target audience to sell to, and it seems they are ahead of most developers in that niche. GL guys!
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
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