Casinos don't cheat.....prove it.

Quote: rxwine

... or the FDA and meat packing. Someone goes in and pokes a ham once a year, and gives a Pass to the whole system.

Okay, a bit of hyperbole, but ...

I do understand that food processing is not the point of your post, but are you actually familiar at all with the government inspection of slaughter/processing plants? I admit that I myself have never been to a beef or pork facility, but I have visited a number of poultry processing plants.

Each plant has full-time veterinarians from the Department of Agriculture working in the plant whenever the lines are in operation. They are continuously inspecting, and I think they actually look at every bird individually as its carcass is processed -- and that's a whole flock of chickens at those big plants. The inspectors have the authority (and use it) to shut down the entire plant if they don't like what they see. It is far from being a cursory inspection process or an automatic "Pass." There is something closer to a polite, adversarial relationship than a buddy-buddy relationship between processor and inspector.

I suspect the same is true of beef and pork processing facilities, though I have no first-hand experience. That's why it is such a shock and a really big deal when contaminated meat actually gets to the market.

It is my impression that the fishing industry is quite a different story, but I know none of the details there.

Quote: JerryLogan

I know the Nevada regulations SAY that the machines can be examined at any time without notice but I have never SEEN that happen, and of the very many other players I know and have asked this of, none of them have ever seen that occur also. In addition, I regularly ask the machine techs who either fix my machines or in casual conversation, and none of them have ever heard of or seen these snap inspections occur either. I'm more of the opinion that the inspectors might check over machines that went out of service due to technical problems and then went back on line, and not necessarily directly either. They may get copies of tech reports that are signed off by the proper casino authorities.

Obviously game inspections happen or you'd never get a situation like Ron Harris. And how do you know that you'd be able to identify a gaming agent inspection if you saw it, as opposed to just another casino manager doing an internal audit?

Quote: MathExtremist

Obviously game inspections happen or you'd never get a situation like Ron Harris. And how do you know that you'd be able to identify a gaming agent inspection if you saw it, as opposed to just another casino manager doing an internal audit?

They may actually occur, but hardly in the way we think of them as. I also don't believe anything would ever be made public unless it was for a specific reason other than what we'd expect. The company I work for regularly has truck inspections and they are visible, often, and thorough. But that's only because an unsafe truck puts lives in danger. One could make a very good argument for not inspecting the machines.

Quote: Headlock

Or at least prove there is a deterrent.

I posed a question in an earlier thread asking whether anyone had knowledge of gaming control checking dice or cards. This was the only comment.

q=SanchoPanza]Before the tables open for the day, I've seen CCC personnel in Atlantic City walking around as the calipers were being deployed. It's not a big deal. And it's probably more in the casinos' interest to have unbiased dice in the event that sharp-eyed customers might pick up on some anomaly.

Who are CCC personnel?

I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who witnessed gaming control snatching the dice off the table and checking them right there. If I am ever lucky enough to see gaming control in a casino (and so far I have not been lucky) I plan to ask for identification and call their office to confirm they don't work for the casino.

Has anyone ever seen gaming control check the dice or the cards? Any first-hand knowledge? Any gaming commission readers out there?

Casinos try to cheat me regularly.... You ever heard of asm's well watch out for blue decks they are stacked sometimes by the machines. Also, in shoe games that are electronic, the shoe can tell if a deck is ten rich and sometimes, not all the time, they will shuffle it when this occurs, before the cut card. This is especially true for online casinos...

Quote: bjgod

Who are CCC personnel?

Casino Control Commission, one of the (currently) two New Jersey State agencies in regulating casino gambling.

Quote: bjgod

If I am ever lucky enough to see gaming control in a casino (and so far I have not been lucky) I plan to ask for identification and call their office to confirm they don't work for the casino.

Lots of luck in dealing with the response, too.

Quote: bjgod

Casinos try to cheat me regularly.... You ever heard of asm's well watch out for blue decks they are stacked sometimes by the machines.

Why would you play with them?

Quote: bjgod

Also, in shoe games that are electronic, the shoe can tell if a deck is ten rich and sometimes, not all the time, they will shuffle it when this occurs, before the cut card. This is especially true for online casinos...

Do you play online, too?

Quote: bjgod

Casinos try to cheat me regularly.... You ever heard of asm's well watch out for blue decks they are stacked sometimes by the machines. Also, in shoe games that are electronic, the shoe can tell if a deck is ten rich and sometimes, not all the time, they will shuffle it when this occurs, before the cut card. This is especially true for online casinos...

Quite the contrary, most online casinos don't use virtual shoes. Essentially all major online software vendors shuffle the deck each time a hand is dealt. Just like land-based video blackjack games.

Why do you feel you're so regularly cheated? More to the point, why do you still play?

While walking passed table games to play poker, I heard a player say that on Three Card Poker "Players are more likely to receive Three of a Kind and Straight Flushes on a hand shuffle than the machine shuffle, because the machine is rigged"

I said, "casinos have such a huge house advantage on games that they do not need to cheat to crush"

I am referring to live dealer blackjack

As far as 3 card shuffling machines being rigged, there's one very big problem with that idea. The machine can't know how many players are at the table at any given time, so it can't really know which groups of cards should be bad and which group of cards will go to the dealer and end up winning. I guess it might be possible to make the machine just not ever give out the higher ranked hands, but that doesn't guarantee that the dealer will win, only that the pairs plus is less likely to hit. For a player who doesn't play pairs plus, that doesn't matter that much anyway. Or you could rig it so that when you have the maximum amount of players the dealer wins, but any time there were less than the max number of players it wouldn't work. And if the machines are rigged, they're doing a very poor job of it because I've hit straights and flushes (and even a trips and a straight flush) was too often, especially considering how little I play.

There is one inadvertent (at least I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt) mistake that you have to watch out for in 3 card. At the casino I play at (I'm assuming it's the same everywhere), if the dealer doesn't qualify then all the players who are still in the game are supposed to automatically win their ante bet at 1 to 1. The play bet is a push (and should be pushed back as soon as the dealer sees that he didn't qualify), and the pairs plus still depends on whether you get pairs or higher. But I've seen some dealers attempt to pick up bets if their non-qualifying hands still beat the hands of the players, and I've heard that in some cases if the players didn't realize what was going on that they got away with it (to be fair to the dealers, who sometimes switch between Ultimate and 3 card, in Ultimate that is the correct procedure.) 3 card usually has the rules written on the felt, so if you ever do play 3 card poker and the dealer tries to pick up your ante bet when they did not qualify, read the rules on the felt and then ask for a pit boss to make sure they're following the rules.

Dealer ignorance of the rules of play might benefit the casino but it would not amount to casino cheating. I think its more a matter of assigning dealers to various games and not having sufficient training periods or effective floor personnel. Take one look at the house edge and see what a casino would gain by fiddling with the shuffler versus what it would lose in the resulting scandal that made the casino a ghost town.

After Katrina, Biloxi casinos had some ill-trained dice dealers. Taking a Come Bet on a Seven-Out benefited the casino but it was simple ignorance. Do you think the casino was going to give the dealer a bit more because one five dollar chip got swept up than it should have?

Quote: Headlock

My intent when I started this thread was to find some evidence that casinos are subject to oversight that would deter cheating. I've played a considerable amount of time in Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Colorado, Illinois, Minnesota, South Dakota, Florida and Nevada. I believe each of these states has a gaming commission, control board, whatever they call it, but not once have I seen a representative of gaming control checking dice or cards.

So I will ask again, does anyone have recent evidence that gaming control, unannounced, checks the dice, the cards, the video poker machines while they are in operation in the casino?

Surely there must be someone among the thousands of visitors to this forum that has worked for a gaming commission or in casino management.

In the casino I work in, the dice are checked upon opening for play, whether its the table that opens or the dice packs are opened. A micrometer is used for the dimentions, a balance for, well, the balance. They are ALWAYS checked under these two circumstances. Occasionally, a member of the Nation's (Nation referring to the Indian tribe) Gaming Authority Agent will randomly conducted a check, sometimes at the conclusion of the game, sometimes in the middle of an active table. If we had a weakness in our system I'd say it'd be that dice thrown off the table aren't immediately and always checked, but I'd say we do a pretty good job of keeping the dice fair. Any nicked, gouged, or repeatedly-thrown-off-the-table dice are replaced, with the same set of checks and balances occuring.

Our card checking pretty much mirrors the norm, where they're splayed out and checked upon the opening of a deck, the replacement of a card due to spill or damage, or in the case a card or cards are dropped from the table. Since cards and decks are replaced so frequently at our place (every 4 hours for most games) rarely does our Authority Agents check mid-game. However, EVERY card is checked within 24hours of it being removed from the table for everything from manufacturers issues (one ways, ink blots) to cheating markers (daubs, crimps, etc) Issues there are surely handled in the case of purposeful marks, where the entire life of those cards in play are reviewed by Surveillance and the marker of such cards identified and tracked. Repeated manufacturers defects result in us changing manufacturers (a pain in the ass, but it has happened and probably will again)

I'm not sure of our total slot/VP machine count, but we have 33 table games, the rest slots and VP, and our gaming floor is maybe the area of two football fields, to give you an idea. In addition to the individual checks these machine receive during a slot project (changing paytables, EPROMs, denom's etc) every single machine is checked (slot verification project) MONTHLY to ensure the machine is set to specs and regs. It is an incredibly tedious and monotonous procedure that any of our Agents cringe about at mere mention, but assuredly they do take place in my establishment.

Take this as you will. Is my casino 'the norm'? I dont know because its my only experience in gaming period, I know not AC, NV, other Indian Gaming, other State Gaming, nothing. And just because it's done, does that negate any chance of hijinks? After all, these are PEOPLE running these tests. On one hand our Agents are often PT or retired law enforcement (Sheriffs, Troopers, etc) and generally good, honorable, stand-up guys and gals. I'd like to believe their history and the fact that people generally prefer to do a good job keeps us on the right side of wrong. However, I realize they're PEOPLE, and people do funny things sometimes. I guess it depends on your cynicism, and I don't mean that as a jab. Other than that, I'd have to side with the members of the forum who feel that 'they take enough legally, why risk the hassle for more' with the exception of dealers taking for themselves, which we just recently caught and punished. Heavily.

And shoot, forgot this one point. Not sure who mentioned it first, but who ever said it was right. In most cases you'd need an extraordinary amount of cooperation from multiple, unassociated departments to pull of a scam to their benefit. I'm sure a Slot Tech could rig a machine to screw you over as the overseeing Agent might be ignorant of the codes and buttons he's pressing, but for what purpose? He would not nor could not reap any benefit, other than delighting in being a sociopath. In any case, anything he does is recorded and it wouldn't be long (slot verifications every month) before the issue was discovered and that guy canned.

Any 'for profit' scam would be so beyond difficult, IMO, because you can only take so much without being noticed, and once you cut that between 3-4 dealers, the Floor, The Pit Boss, 1-4 Nation Agents and the 3-6 guys in Surveillance (all of which you'd need on board) it just wouldn't seem logical that 9 - 16 people would risk comfy, cozy, cushy, regular paying, well benefited jobs for an extra $hundo. I think you're FAR more vulnerable, and IMO still a low probability, of being shortchanged by a dealer, whether for his benefit or his ignorance.

Quote: Headlock

So I will ask again, does anyone have recent evidence that gaming control, unannounced, checks the dice, the cards, the video poker machines while they are in operation in the casino?

Most card checks are by the casino and are performed after a deck has been in play but I have seen a Gaming Agent accompanied by suits perform a card check just as a blackjack game was about to begin. I've spoken with a woman who had only recently left her job as a Slot Auditor a position she held while awaiting Nevada verification of her out of state professional credentials. She finally relocated for personal reasons unrelated to her profession or her Slot Auditing job.

Card checks were about ten years ago. Slot auditor was about five years ago in Colorado but had left her Nevada job only recently.

New Mexico probably couldn't verify if the Sun had risen. New Mexico casinos actually use dealers to perform the work that in Nevada is performed by state prisoners, that is the assembling of used decks into the proper sequence and shipping them off to be retired. New Mexico oversight is non-existent.

Nevada casinos look for marked cards. New Mexico dealers probably wouldn't know a marked card if it bit them! (And if a New Mexico dealer did in fact get bitten by a marked card, he wouldn't even report it until "Manana".)

Quote: Lhornbk70

As far as 3 card shuffling machines being rigged, there's one very big problem with that idea. The machine can't know how many players are at the table at any given time, so it can't really know which groups of cards should be bad and which group of cards will go to the dealer and end up winning.

Any good conspiracy theorist here can tell you that there has to be a hidden button where the dealer can punch in the number of players.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Any good conspiracy theorist here can tell you that there has to be a hidden button where the dealer can punch in the number of players.

Would be extremely difficult to hide said button, since the dealer must keep his hands above the table at all times. Of course, that wouldn't stop the floor manager from being able to enter the number of players on the tableside computers at some casinos.

I'm pretty sure the procedure is that when dealing, the shoe spits out hands of 3 cards at a time, which the dealer delivers to players and himself in turn. Each new hand is spit out automatically after the last one is removed. That means after the dealer has take his hand, there's another 3 cards sitting in the tray, but the dealer doesn't take that. Instead he presses a button that causes the rest of the deck to come out of the shuffler. I believe the shuffler also counts the remaining cards at this time and alarms if they didn't add up to 52.

This is for the older shufflers, though. Some of the newer ones not only know which hands are going to players or the dealer, but what the cards are. Both Shuffle Master and TCS John Huxley have card-reading shoes.

Quote: MathExtremist

I'm pretty sure the procedure is that when dealing, the shoe spits out hands of 3 cards at a time, which the dealer delivers to players and himself in turn. Each new hand is spit out automatically after the last one is removed. That means after the dealer has take his hand, there's another 3 cards sitting in the tray, but the dealer doesn't take that. Instead he presses a button that causes the rest of the deck to come out of the shuffler. I believe the shuffler also counts the remaining cards at this time and alarms if they didn't add up to 52.

This is for the older shufflers, though. Some of the newer ones not only know which hands are going to players or the dealer, but what the cards are. Both Shuffle Master and TCS John Huxley have card-reading shoes.

Correct ME, up until the second card check. As far as I am aware, They only count on the way in, as once the correct number of 3 card hands are spat out, (8 max) the rest of the cards are spat out in 3 chunks. It could count them and I could be wrong.

If there is a "hidden button" to punch the number of players, no one has told me where it is in three years of dealing.

Quote: Croupier

Correct ME, up until the second card check. As far as I am aware, They only count on the way in, as once the correct number of 3 card hands are spat out, (8 max) the rest of the cards are spat out in 3 chunks. It could count them and I could be wrong.

If there is a "hidden button" to punch the number of players, no one has told me where it is in three years of dealing.

Assuming you're using the Ace shuffler, I don't think there are too many user controls on the machine. There's the green button that ends the hand and releases the rest of the cards, and then a few buttons to set the mode of the machine (3CP, UTH, 4CP, LIR, etc.) I don't have the manual so I don't know all the details, but no dealer procedure I've ever seen requires the dealer to touch any user control on the shuffler between hands, other than to start a new round.

Quote: MathExtremist

Assuming you're using the Ace shuffler, I don't think there are too many user controls on the machine. There's the green button that ends the hand and releases the rest of the cards, and then a few buttons to set the mode of the machine (3CP, UTH, 4CP, LIR, etc.) I don't have the manual so I don't know all the details, but no dealer procedure I've ever seen requires the dealer to touch any user control on the shuffler between hands, other than to start a new round.

ours are so old school they only have 3 controls. One is at the front to empty the cards on 3 card. Another is on top and clears the card loader. These controls are duplicated on either side of the machine for left or right handed set ups. The other controls are as you mentioned for chaging the game set up on the machine.

Once again, use common sense. I can absolute see a casino without any regulation in a non-competitive environment cheating. For the land-based casinos, first, they are governed tightly by gaming regulation. If dealers or any casino employee knew they were cheating the players, many would have divulged those secrets by now because dealers quit -- they are not part of a mob. It is far more likely for the casino employee to cheat the casino. The dealer gets more tips and if they colluding, then they are receiving a great deal of the net profit for the player.

Casinos make money because they have the mathematical advantage -- all of the time. They don't need to cheat. They certainly don't need to worry about your piddly 10 dollar bet at the 3 card player. They are certainly more likely to sweating the action of the 100,000 bacarrat player. A few extra straight flushes at 3 card means absolutely NOTHING to the casino. Changing the odds from 1-4-6 to 1-3-6 on the pairs plus and making that extra 5 percent on every pairs plus bet through the whole casino however is HUGE. If they were cheating you, why not offer the best pay table in town at 1-4-7 or 1-3-7 and have the shuffler take care of the cheat?

Crazy.

Quote: boymimbo

Casinos make money because they have the mathematical advantage -- all of the time. They don't need to cheat.

Of all the various arguments put forth for the honesty of casinos, this is both the most often used, and the weakest. A criminal doesn't NEED to be a criminal. This would be a powerful argument to use on him as he robs you at gunpoint. I'm sure that a persuasive argument on how he doesn't NEED to resort to armed robbery to make a living would make him holster his gun and slink away in remorse.

My counter would be that despite this unassailable mathematical advantage, many casinos have failed recently, and many more are sinking into the abyss. Cheating would be a very tempting way to increase the bottom line, especially since the chances of being caught are about 1/googol, and the chances of being punished are about one billionth of that. I'm not saying that most or even a few casinos do that, or will do that, but I find the "why should they" argument pretty flaccid. If they double the bottom line for even, say, a calendar quarter, that would reassure the stockholders and keep the regulatory wolves from the door. If you ignore any moral considerations, it might well be considered a shrewd business decision to start taking a few tens out of the shoe.

Quote: mkl654321

My counter would be that despite this unassailable mathematical advantage, many casinos have failed recently,.

That doesn't matter, casinos don't need a reason to cheat. When the Nevada Gaming Commission was established, they found every game in every casino in Vegas was rigged. Why? Because they could. Whenever you find money being dealt with, you'll find cheaters on both sides. Always.

With a mathematical edge and ignorant customers who are so blotto that they can barely navigate their fanny-packs through the casino there might be opportunities but actual rigging of a game to milk the situation even more would gain the casino very little and present a very great risk. Why use crooked dice? Its not going to bring in any additional victims with large bankrolls. Its a simple risk versus reward situation. The risk is real though imprecisely known. The reward is minimal.

Quote: mkl654321

Of all the various arguments put forth for the honesty of casinos, this is both the most often used, and the weakest. A criminal doesn't NEED to be a criminal. This would be a powerful argument to use on him as he robs you at gunpoint. I'm sure that a persuasive argument on how he doesn't NEED to resort to armed robbery to make a living would make him holster his gun and slink away in remorse.

My counter would be that despite this unassailable mathematical advantage, many casinos have failed recently, and many more are sinking into the abyss. Cheating would be a very tempting way to increase the bottom line, especially since the chances of being caught are about 1/googol, and the chances of being punished are about one billionth of that. I'm not saying that most or even a few casinos do that, or will do that, but I find the "why should they" argument pretty flaccid. If they double the bottom line for even, say, a calendar quarter, that would reassure the stockholders and keep the regulatory wolves from the door. If you ignore any moral considerations, it might well be considered a shrewd business decision to start taking a few tens out of the shoe.

mkl- Who at what level do you propose is making this decision? How is that person gaining additional compensation for risking his career/ jail time? How many other people would need to be in on the conspiracy, and how are they being compensated? And how come there has been not one 'whistleblower' over the last umpteen years? if a casino was a little mom and pop business, with a direct line of the profits to mom and pop, and they were dealers, then I can see a strong enough motive. But there cannot be enough of a profit motive for an employee, not owner, to cheat for the casino. There can be enough of a profit motive for an employee to cheat against the casino, but that is not what we are talking about.

My point, exactly. The casino dealer gets no bonus from cheating the customer. The employees are not treated as part of a family. They are corporate denizens like any other corporation. They don't have any incentive therefore not to tell the public that they are being cheated on, especially in (as in what I am talking about) a flea game like 3CP or any of the table games on the general floor for that matter. It isn't old Vegas anymore where the dealers have a vested interest in the casino's profit. Dealers come and go.

The high roller rooms could be a different story. The high roller gambling salon on the plane between China and Vegas could also be a different story. But us fleas, no. The math takes care of itself.

I don't need to construct a "conspiracy cheating scenario"--I'm sure that anyone enacting such a scheme would be far more imaginative than me. As to how easy or difficult it would be--it would only need a few employees, none of which would even have to be the rank-and-file (dealers), though one can easily imagine a dealer three months behind on his mortgage or having huge medical bills being tempted. Obviously, whoever was at the "top" of such a scheme would have to promise the rank-and-file some additional compensation for participating, but that participation could be unwitting--like the aforementioned removal of tens from a blackjack shoe (which has been done before, by at least two "major" casinos).

As to how come there have been no exposed cheating scandals--actually, there have, but nothing on a massive scale. I can't imagine a scenario, though, where a player or players a) detects the cheating b) knows how the cheating is being done c) gathers proof of that cheating d) makes a persuasive case before regulatory agencies e) those agencies actually ACT on the information f) the casino is sanctioned in some meaningful way. This would be a six-team longshot parlay. Especially given the lapdog nature of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, it's vanishingly unlikely.

In any case, I'm not saying that systematic cheating actually IS happening in any casino; only that the incentive is there, it would be ridiculously easy to do, and the chances of detection and/or punishment would be essentially nil. I would NOT gamble in a casino that's going down for the third time for that exact reason--management (and employees) may feel they have nothing to lose.

Quote: mkl654321

I don't need to construct a "conspiracy cheating scenario"--I'm sure that anyone enacting such a scheme would be far more imaginative than me. As to how easy or difficult it would be--it would only need a few employees, none of which would even have to be the rank-and-file (dealers), though one can easily imagine a dealer three months behind on his mortgage or having huge medical bills being tempted. Obviously, whoever was at the "top" of such a scheme would have to promise the rank-and-file some additional compensation for participating, but that participation could be unwitting--like the aforementioned removal of tens from a blackjack shoe (which has been done before, by at least two "major" casinos).

As to how come there have been no exposed cheating scandals--actually, there have, but nothing on a massive scale. I can't imagine a scenario, though, where a player or players a) detects the cheating b) knows how the cheating is being done c) gathers proof of that cheating d) makes a persuasive case before regulatory agencies e) those agencies actually ACT on the information f) the casino is sanctioned in some meaningful way. This would be a six-team longshot parlay. Especially given the lapdog nature of the Nevada Gaming Control Board, it's vanishingly unlikely.

In any case, I'm not saying that systematic cheating actually IS happening in any casino; only that the incentive is there, it would be ridiculously easy to do, and the chances of detection and/or punishment would be essentially nil. I would NOT gamble in a casino that's going down for the third time for that exact reason--management (and employees) may feel they have nothing to lose.

This line of reasoning sounds peculiarly similar to that used by Rob Singer in his description of his "special" plays.... "I'll tell you a story about how I win at a -EV game and you can't prove I'm wrong". Your resolute stand about possible casino cheating with a lack of any real evidence follows the same logic as RS as well, "Because I say so". If RS was railing about the prevalence of cheating in casinos with no more than rumor and hearsay to back up his claims you'd be just as quick to explain how he's full of it and paint him to be a delusional conspiracy theorist. Yes mkl, it could be done. We all agree that this is possible. It's also possible the US never sent men to the moon and that there are alien bodies in Area 51. Some theories may be more likely than others but it certainly doesn't make them any more real.

Quote: TheNightfly

This line of reasoning sounds peculiarly similar to that used by Rob Singer in his description of his "special" plays.... "I'll tell you a story about how I win at a -EV game and you can't prove I'm wrong". Your resolute stand about possible casino cheating with a lack of any real evidence follows the same logic as RS as well, "Because I say so". If RS was railing about the prevalence of cheating in casinos with no more than rumor and hearsay to back up his claims you'd be just as quick to explain how he's full of it and paint him to be a delusional conspiracy theorist. Yes mkl, it could be done. We all agree that this is possible. It's also possible the US never sent men to the moon and that there are alien bodies in Area 51. Some theories may be more likely than others but it certainly doesn't make them any more real.

Terrible, unsound reasoning on your part. I did NOT say that any casino or casinos WERE cheating, only that contrary to what some may think, it would be quite easy to execute and to conceal, and strong incentives exist for casinos to do so.

Singer says that there IS a massive secret-regulation conspiracy, not just that there COULD be. I am simply stating that casino cheating is not nearly as implausible as some people say it is. I'm not going nearly as far as Singer, and that should be obvious, so it's pretty ridiculous to equate my arguments with his. You should stop and consider if your criiticism is warranted before you carelessly toss it out there.

And by the way, when I worked in the Vegas/Reno casinos, I saw cheating on a regular basis, and received many entertaining demos of just how it could be done. If you think that casino cheating is in the same class as "Area 51", then you are hopelessly naive and credulous.

Quote: mkl654321

Terrible, unsound reasoning on your part. I did NOT say that any casino or casinos WERE cheating... when I worked in the Vegas/Reno casinos, I saw cheating on a regular basis.

Is it just me or is that not the most egregious case of self contradiction you've ever seen? Keep digging that hole mkl. And yes, I do stand by my assertion that your argument should be equated to those of RS as they are all in the same class... pure foolishness. I seldom do anything carelessly. Now, you can come back and continue to argue your point and do your best to be right just for the sake of being right (as you are wont to do) but then you'd just be adding to the number of posts you have on this site for no real reason other than being the most prolific poster. Oh yeah, that is why you post. Never mind. Please go right ahead and tell me why I'm wrong, and make sure you include lots of neato words from your thesaurus. I get tingles when you pontificate.

Quote: mkl654321

I did NOT say that any casino or casinos WERE cheating

And by the way, when I worked in the Vegas/Reno casinos, I saw cheating on a regular basis

Please- at least try and have your ludicrous inconsistencies not appear in the same post!!! Just sitting here laughing waiting for the expected explanation....

Quote: TheNightfly

Is it just me or is that not the most egregious case of self contradiction you've ever seen? Keep digging that hole mkl. And yes, I do stand by my assertion that your argument should be equated to those of RS as they are all in the same class... pure foolishness. I seldom do anything carelessly. Now, you can come back and continue to argue your point and do your best to be right just for the sake of being right (as you are wont to do) but then you'd just be adding to the number of posts you have on this site for no real reason other than being the most prolific poster. Oh yeah, that is why you post. Never mind. Please go right ahead and tell me why I'm wrong, and make sure you include lots of neato words from your thesaurus. I get tingles when you pontificate.

Can you read? "Were" was present tense (in the subjunctive). Furthermore, I did NOT say that the examples of cheating I saw were casino-sanctioned. They were demos (as I mentioned in my next sentence) by INDIVIDUALS.

Your assertion that you seldom do anything carelessly is contradicted by your careless non-reading of my post. And if you think that I post merely for the sake of being "most prolific poster", you are trying to read my mind, which you do not have the ability to do, so you're simply speculating.

I'm not going to try to use any big words when talking to you, don't worry. You'll have to get your tingles elsewhere.

P.S. To answer your question directly, yes, it IS just you.

Quote: SOOPOO

Please- at least try and have your ludicrous inconsistencies not appear in the same post!!! Just sitting here laughing waiting for the expected explanation....

See my post, above. You are jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. I never said I saw CASINO cheating. I saw it demonstrated by INDIVIDUALS. I just KNEW someone would fail to acurately read what I said. Happens all too often--that's why I teach English, to try to stem the tide.

Quote: TheNightfly

Is it just me or is that not the most egregious case of self contradiction you've ever seen? Keep digging that hole mkl. And yes, I do stand by my assertion that your argument should be equated to those of RS as they are all in the same class... pure foolishness. I seldom do anything carelessly. Now, you can come back and continue to argue your point and do your best to be right just for the sake of being right (as you are wont to do) but then you'd just be adding to the number of posts you have on this site for no real reason other than being the most prolific poster. Oh yeah, that is why you post. Never mind. Please go right ahead and tell me why I'm wrong, and make sure you include lots of neato words from your thesaurus. I get tingles when you pontificate.

And by the way, chopping two sentences in half, then stringing them together, and treating the result as a single sentence while omitting the context (i.e., the rest of the words in between) is a hack job worthy of a political propagandist.

Quote: DorothyGale

Silly boy ...

I'll get you my pretty! and your little domain address too!! :)
http://www.dottygale.com' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.dottygale.com"]http://www.dottygale.com

Quote: Headlock

I started this thread asking if anyone had proof of an effective deterrent to casino cheating. There have been a couple examples of gaming commission personnel intervening on behalf of a customer with a complaint. But there apparently is very little evidence of gaming commission personnel checking the dice or the cards during play.

Many of you keep saying its unlikely that dealers would comply with directives from upper management to cheat, and I agree with you. But use your imagination; if the craps table is juiced only a few people know about it and none of the dealers would have a clue. And if Shufflemaster is not selling a card shuffler that identifies the card sequence coming up, and transmitting that data to someone in the control room, and altering the sequence of cards coming out, then I'm applying for a provisional patent on that Monday morning.

I don't want to believe that casinos cheat. I know I'm going to lose in the long run, I just want to have a reasonable chance. But losing $8,000 in a few hours of craps playing $5 pass line and 10x odds (which according to the WOO site gives the house only a .0018% edge) makes me question the fairness of the game.

great thread and im glad to see others with an open mind about the integrity and potential of cheating in casinos.

I just find it so funny that people are so quick to defend casinos and say it's impossible they would cheat because they wouldn't risk wanting to get caught and that the risks far outweigh the gains as well as needing so many people to be involved in the scandal with someone being bound to blow it all up; i find that all laughable. To think we've had so many companies/corporations in the business world in other industries who were corrupt such as Enron and others, and to think of all industries, the casino industry isnt possibly corrupt in some fashion? Also dealers and pit bosses and other personnel dont check the cards one by one to see if its an honest deck composition, they just check the back of the cards to make sure they're all there and dont check for the exact deck composition(any tens missing or extra 4s and 5s). So you can right off the bat throw away the 'many people have to be in on it' out the window. Also most casinos dont even fan the cards face up and on top of it the cards come PRE SHUFFLED LOL. Good luck checking the cards now that they're pre shuffled, it will take FOREVER and thats the excuse they give to you.

Also someone go ahead and tell me the chances of getting caught and then go ahead and tell me the chances of being punished. We then have to bring in the fact that we trust the Gaming Commission and they're not working together with casinos to bring in more tax revenue for the state. Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the state to bring in more tax revenue and thus rigging the game for a higher house edge? Who's going to punish the state? The state is the highest authority and outside of federal jurisdiction for this type of case. So all of this boils down to trust. You can have as many commissions as you want, but if the state is willing to rig it for tax revenue, good luck. And only few of the very high management of both the casino and gaming commission have to know about the rig. Dealers, pit bosses, etc will all be out of the loop since they will never see the actual cards and are told what to check.

My gut instinct is that they dont cheat, but my main problem with all of this is how quick people dismiss it that they dont. You would be completely naive to not question the integrity of million/billion $ corporations when money is on the line. If other corporations have been caught in other industries, who's to say out of all industries, the CASINO INDUSTRY wouldn't be corrupt or at least try to manipulate it even more?

Casinos that don't use preshuffled cards do in fact check to see if all the cards are there.They examine the backs and fronts.
I have seen a few times where a card has been missing or there has been a duplicate card.

Quote: mkl654321

I dealt blackjack for eight years. I avoided getting summarily fired by always maintaining a kissy-kissy attitude with my immediate superiors. Nonetheless, I was often--I would estimate over a dozen times--subjected to intense scrutiny after my table had had a bad shift/day/week. One time, I was pulled off the game and questioned after I had lost $15,000 to a single player. No doubt the surveillance tapes were pulled and gone over minutely as well.

If you've never been employed in this environment (and you obviously haven't, given your naivete), then you might not understand the crap that goes on, EVERY DAY.

And as far as cheating not happening? Don't make me laugh. I knew DOZENS of dealers who cheated on a regular basis. Some were dumping to a confederate, and thus had to destroy the other players to make up for it. Some cheated for themselves. Some cheated high-rollers at the behest of the house (and got double or triple shares of the tokes when they were divvied up). And yes, some dealers cheated the customers JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. It was an ego thing, they laughed and joked about it afterward in the break room, and they had all sorts of wonderful things to say about the players.

By the way, if you could listen to the conversation in the break room for five minutes, you'd never toke the dealer again. The people who toke heavily ("georges") are the ones held in the highest contempt.

I was short-paid on color-up many, many times at craps. (Never been short-paid on BJ color-up or any other table game, just craps).

EVERY single time when I mentioned that I was short one black chip ($100), the craps dealer would shoot me another black chip. No comment from bowman. No recount of chips. No questioning. They knew what they were doing. I knew what they were doing & didn't give them any crap.

Traveling in the 3rd world, I'm very familiar with slow-pay (give part of the change and pause, if the customer walks before getting all their change - tough luck, if customer waits, change continues until the full amount is given).

----
P.S. On the flip side, If I tip well to friendly BJ dealers, I often get favors in my benefit much higher than the cost of tips.
Overpays on complicated stacks, 3:2 payouts on 6:5 games, Double-pays on insurance, double pays on new chips, double pays on any interruption by pit boss, etc... basically anything "plausibly deniable" to the cameras and surveillance.

Quote: nyuhoosier

I have watched the routine for introducing new cards hundreds of times. The pit boss opens new decks right there at the table, and the dealer fans them out and methodically counts them down, making sure no cards are missing. (I don't play craps so don't know that process.) Too many people -- including low level employees and card makers -- would have to be in on the conspiracy for it to work.

Deck-fixing simply doesn't happen at mainstream, reputable casinos, so you can get off that horse.

Which shows how out-of-date the controls are. They are checking the integrity of the 52-card decks and then putting them into automated shufflers that can identify the cards before they are shuffled and dealt and the automated shufflers are not checked to see if they have been tampered with. Cheating in the modern era can be done with software and technology.

In (some) Indian casinos, virtually the only forms of controls on table games are to check the financial statistics on the table to protect the casino itself against any Dealers that may be colluding with gamblers. Video games and slot machines have the minimum hand-waving level of controls but there don't seem to be any controls on automated shufflers.

"This house cheats I cannot win" as the player proceeds to buy in for another $200

I think the notion is kinda silly...On carny games (Ult, MS Stud, 3-Card etc) the machine doesnt know how many people are playing...how will it know to give the dealer the best hand? What about hand shuffle games..are we all magicians?

If the dealer were to get all 52 cards, do the 7 card riffle, then washes them, then picks the amount of cards at random to the player, and the player picks the amount of cards at random to the dealer..i think the odds dont change at all.

Eh, I've some seen some shenanigans with Blackjack Dealers in AC and PA switching multiple times in a matter of minutes that would make you question that notion. Especially when it's the same two dealers coming in, burning a card, dealing a few hands and then switching over and over until it seems the house has winning cards. Everyone at the table got up in disgust and asked "Are they trying to sabotage the game so blatantly?"

But I digress, I recently saw an interesting BJ game at Caesar's AC where the dealer was dealing the cards as fast as she could without paying much attention to the cards. One hand she drew to 18 and a guy had two double down hands of 4-7-J & 8-3 -6. She paid out both his double downs without so much as looking at his point totals.

So I thought, if she was that careless and oblivious to what was going on, I would sit down and try to make a few bucks before the jig was up. Somehow, I drew the ire of this dealer as she started to deal even faster when I sat down. I had a hard 13 vs dealer 5, she turns over a 4 and reaches in to take my money. I quickly stop her and say "Hold on, the hand's not over yet." She feigns regret saying "Oh, sorry" Pulls a card and then reaches in for the money... But the card was a 4, so I protest "Hand's still not over, keep going. Final card a 9 for the bust and an angry dealer now having to pay out.

This went on for a while with the dealer making more mistakes ( like Busting with 22 and quickly taking all bets off the table before anyone realized, except me of course) and me advising that maybe she should slow down and pay attention to the cards. She then gets agitated and says "So what if I make a mistake? They can be undone and my supervisor will tell me when I'm not doing my job right."

I shrugged and said "That's fine, but wouldn't it be easier to do it right the first time instead of wasting time making mistakes?" Again, no change from this dealer, so I sat out and watched others deal with her. She made come classic mistakes such as players hits 16, gets a 6 and dealer pays them out. Player hits Soft 14, pulls a Q and she tries to take the money before he even draws another card.

And the funniest one was a Double down 9-2 vs dealer Ace. She offers Insurance and nobody buys it, she checks for Blackjack and then turns up her card... Everyone thinks she has BJ as that is what she is pantomiming with the card flip. However, it was another Ace in the hole and everyone jumps with excitement and yells "STOP!"

She calls the floor person over and he declares that the hand will continue nd he watches the hand play out. So the person with 11 goes to double down and gets a 10, he happily waits for the dealer to draw a card and it's a K, followed by a J. Before he can count his winnings the dealer starts taking his chips and he shouts "WHAT the Hell are you doing!?!?" She goes, "You have 19!"

He retorts "Are you blind, I have 21!" She goes "Alright relax, PUSH then!" He shouts back "You got 22. You Busted, Pay up!!!" She turns to see her floor person still standing there and says "Floor, I thought it was a push, I'm gonna pay him now, ok?" Floor person obviously approves it and HE apologizes on her behalf.

I just shook my head and walked away ahead at that point and in complete disbelief that they would let someone blatantly try and cheat people by doing a lousy job. Ah well, that's CET for ya!

Quote: BedWetterBetter

Eh, I've some seen some shenanigans with Blackjack Dealers in AC and PA switching multiple times in a matter of minutes that would make you question that notion. Especially when it's the same two dealers coming in, burning a card, dealing a few hands and then switching over and over until it seems the house has winning cards. Everyone at the table got up in disgust and asked "Are they trying to sabotage the game so blatantly?"

But I digress, I recently saw an interesting BJ game at Caesar's AC where the dealer was dealing the cards as fast as she could without paying much attention to the cards. One hand she drew to 18 and a guy had two double down hands of 4-7-J & 8-3 -6. She paid out both his double downs without so much as looking at his point totals.

So I thought, if she was that careless and oblivious to what was going on, I would sit down and try to make a few bucks before the jig was up. Somehow, I drew the ire of this dealer as she started to deal even faster when I sat down. I had a hard 13 vs dealer 5, she turns over a 4 and reaches in to take my money. I quickly stop her and say "Hold on, the hand's not over yet." She feigns regret saying "Oh, sorry" Pulls a card and then reaches in for the money... But the card was a 4, so I protest "Hand's still not over, keep going. Final card a 9 for the bust and an angry dealer now having to pay out.

This went on for a while with the dealer making more mistakes ( like Busting with 22 and quickly taking all bets off the table before anyone realized, except me of course) and me advising that maybe she should slow down and pay attention to the cards. She then gets agitated and says "So what if I make a mistake? They can be undone and my supervisor will tell me when I'm not doing my job right."

I shrugged and said "That's fine, but wouldn't it be easier to do it right the first time instead of wasting time making mistakes?" Again, no change from this dealer, so I sat out and watched others deal with her. She made come classic mistakes such as players hits 16, gets a 6 and dealer pays them out. Player hits Soft 14, pulls a Q and she tries to take the money before he even draws another card.

And the funniest one was a Double down 9-2 vs dealer Ace. She offers Insurance and nobody buys it, she checks for Blackjack and then turns up her card... Everyone thinks she has BJ as that is what she is pantomiming with the card flip. However, it was another Ace in the hole and everyone jumps with excitement and yells "STOP!"

She calls the floor person over and he declares that the hand will continue nd he watches the hand play out. So the person with 11 goes to double down and gets a 10, he happily waits for the dealer to draw a card and it's a K, followed by a J. Before he can count his winnings the dealer starts taking his chips and he shouts "WHAT the Hell are you doing!?!?" She goes, "You have 19!"

He retorts "Are you blind, I have 21!" She goes "Alright relax, PUSH then!" He shouts back "You got 22. You Busted, Pay up!!!" She turns to see her floor person still standing there and says "Floor, I thought it was a push, I'm gonna pay him now, ok?" Floor person obviously approves it and HE apologizes on her behalf.

I just shook my head and walked away ahead at that point and in complete disbelief that they would let someone blatantly try and cheat people by doing a lousy job. Ah well, that's CET for ya!

This woman seems to be kind of incompetent at her job. :/ I don't see her lasting long with her work ethic there.

You give numerous examples of the dealer paying players when she shouldn't yet you conclude they're cheating you. OK.

Jefferson Parish Casino in Louisiana took names of Texas Hold 'Em players for bad beat jackpot but immediately launched an investigation because dealers strange activities had been noted by casino staffers. Prior and subsequent communications between the dealer and the winning player clinched the investigation into the two separate false shuffles. Dealer and player in custody.
Bad beat money stays in the bad beat fund.

Quote: GlenG

"This house cheats I cannot win" as the player proceeds to buy in for another $200

I think the notion is kinda silly...On carny games (Ult, MS Stud, 3-Card etc) the machine doesnt know how many people are playing...how will it know to give the dealer the best hand? What about hand shuffle games..are we all magicians?

If the dealer were to get all 52 cards, do the 7 card riffle, then washes them, then picks the amount of cards at random to the player, and the player picks the amount of cards at random to the dealer..i think the odds dont change at all.

I play UTH a lot of places. I consistently do worse, and it's not close, at places that deal the dealer's hand immediately after the community board. This only happens in places that use the auto dealer function of the SHFL ideal or one2six. It's gotten to where I usually don't play that game at those casinos.

I know the shuffler is certified random and sealed.

I know it is only programmed to sort the cards into check deck order, and that only can happen when a supervisor turns a key to that particular chore.

Doesn't matter. I bet very strictly, play bs. Down a little over 20% more on those tables compared to hand dealt. Very little difference between hand-dealt and dealer-last auto-deal results. Dealer-first, I've stopped playing. There's something going on.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I bet very strictly, play bs. Down a little over 20% more on those tables compared to hand dealt.

Over how many hours?

Quote: gamerfreak

Over how many hours?

I am quite interested in this and will look forward to receiving BBB's response but know she is too level headed a gambler to be altering her actions based on some ten second fluke. If she has noted it, commented on it and altered her own behavior based on her observations, it is significant.

Whether you math types want to start talking about standard deviants and non-standard deviants and precise proof or mere indications and regressions to the mean is up to you.

I'm not a math type but Uth is a very slow game ,25 hands per hour is probably being generous.
So how many hours has Bbb played at casinos that deal in the manner she has had bad results with.It could just be variance.

Quote: gamerfreak

Over how many hours?

About 250 over 2 years. So about 7000-8000 hands at roughly 30/hr avg.

I've had significant w2s over the last couple years, so have tracked my win/loss pretty closely with a daily log. UTH has been my go-to game, using James Grosjean strategy and Wizards kicker strategy with no deviations for how the table might be running. So my EOR has been very close to expected on the non dealer-first games, and atm I'm up slightly, around 1%, which I attribute to variance. But isolating the dealer first games, I'm down 22% from expectation on those alone.

Casinos that deal with dealer-first from the machine:
Scarlet Pearl Biloxi MS(game removed since, replaced with HUH)
4 Queens LV
Ameristar Vicksburg MS (lost 22 hands IN A ROW there - 8 on 1 table, changed tables, lost 14 more, gave up )
Harrahs Gulf Coast (just installed in Dec 2017, still adjusting some procedures)

Good games
Victory Casino Port Canaveral FL
Hard Rock Hotel Biloxi MS (game reportedly removed in Nov and replaced with HUH - no idea what they were thinking, people stood 3 deep to get on the 1 table they had)
IP (boyd) Biloxi MS
Hard Rock Hollywood FL (Ft Lauderdale) though often $15 min.
Harrahs LV (though I haven't played it there since 2014, so could be different).
Horseshoe Tunica MS
Harrahs Kansas City MO
Horseshoe Bossier City LA

Quote: Hunterhill

could just be variance.

Yes. Maybe it will survive an actuarial audit; maybe it will not. If I were playing with your money, I might discuss actuarial audits and precise calculations of probability but if I'm playing with my money for my enjoyment, my standards for looking askance at the shuffler are a bit more relaxed.

Anyway, I too look forward to getting an estimate of the hours and the mathematical significance of 20 percent.

There is always observer bias and distractions. BBB is playing the game, greeting the dealer, greeting fellow players, ordering drinks, congratulating those with growing chip stacks, commiserating with those whose stacks are dwindling, but overall has formed an impression (and apparently kept some win/loss records) and even if it insufficient to pass actuarial muster, I still tend to believe it at this point in time.

Quote: FleaStiff

Yes. Maybe it will survive an actuarial audit; maybe it will not. If I were playing with your money, I might discuss actuarial audits and precise calculations of probability but if I'm playing with my money for my enjoyment, my standards for looking askance at the shuffler are a bit more relaxed.

Anyway, I too look forward to getting an estimate of the hours and the mathematical significance of 20 percent.

There is always observer bias and distractions. BBB is playing the game, greeting the dealer, greeting fellow players, ordering drinks, congratulating those with growing chip stacks, commiserating with those whose stacks are dwindling, but overall has formed an impression (and apparently kept some win/loss records) and even if it insufficient to pass actuarial muster, I still tend to believe it at this point in time.

Thanks, Fleastiff. I don't think.there's enough evidence to show a provable situation myself, but the question was asked, so that's what I have. I would estimate about 50 hours of the 250 total was at those tables, mostly before I started noticing a trend. For a lot of it, one particular casino among them had a very flashy crew, so that was offsetting some of the problems, but they corrected their problem, last I saw.