Thread Rating:

mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 65
  • Posts: 3412
January 9th, 2011 at 4:59:24 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

Is it just me or is that not the most egregious case of self contradiction you've ever seen? Keep digging that hole mkl. And yes, I do stand by my assertion that your argument should be equated to those of RS as they are all in the same class... pure foolishness. I seldom do anything carelessly. Now, you can come back and continue to argue your point and do your best to be right just for the sake of being right (as you are wont to do) but then you'd just be adding to the number of posts you have on this site for no real reason other than being the most prolific poster. Oh yeah, that is why you post. Never mind. Please go right ahead and tell me why I'm wrong, and make sure you include lots of neato words from your thesaurus. I get tingles when you pontificate.



Can you read? "Were" was present tense (in the subjunctive). Furthermore, I did NOT say that the examples of cheating I saw were casino-sanctioned. They were demos (as I mentioned in my next sentence) by INDIVIDUALS.

Your assertion that you seldom do anything carelessly is contradicted by your careless non-reading of my post. And if you think that I post merely for the sake of being "most prolific poster", you are trying to read my mind, which you do not have the ability to do, so you're simply speculating.

I'm not going to try to use any big words when talking to you, don't worry. You'll have to get your tingles elsewhere.

P.S. To answer your question directly, yes, it IS just you.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 65
  • Posts: 3412
January 9th, 2011 at 5:02:31 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Please- at least try and have your ludicrous inconsistencies not appear in the same post!!! Just sitting here laughing waiting for the expected explanation....



See my post, above. You are jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. I never said I saw CASINO cheating. I saw it demonstrated by INDIVIDUALS. I just KNEW someone would fail to acurately read what I said. Happens all too often--that's why I teach English, to try to stem the tide.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 65
  • Posts: 3412
January 9th, 2011 at 5:05:56 PM permalink
Quote: TheNightfly

Is it just me or is that not the most egregious case of self contradiction you've ever seen? Keep digging that hole mkl. And yes, I do stand by my assertion that your argument should be equated to those of RS as they are all in the same class... pure foolishness. I seldom do anything carelessly. Now, you can come back and continue to argue your point and do your best to be right just for the sake of being right (as you are wont to do) but then you'd just be adding to the number of posts you have on this site for no real reason other than being the most prolific poster. Oh yeah, that is why you post. Never mind. Please go right ahead and tell me why I'm wrong, and make sure you include lots of neato words from your thesaurus. I get tingles when you pontificate.



And by the way, chopping two sentences in half, then stringing them together, and treating the result as a single sentence while omitting the context (i.e., the rest of the words in between) is a hack job worthy of a political propagandist.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
Joined: Jun 10, 2010
  • Threads: 51
  • Posts: 3259
February 24th, 2011 at 9:01:13 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

Silly boy ...

I'll get you my pretty! and your little domain address too!! :)
http://www.dottygale.com' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://www.dottygale.com"]http://www.dottygale.com
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
  • Threads: 56
  • Posts: 1443
March 30th, 2017 at 10:20:03 PM permalink
Quote: Headlock

I started this thread asking if anyone had proof of an effective deterrent to casino cheating. There have been a couple examples of gaming commission personnel intervening on behalf of a customer with a complaint. But there apparently is very little evidence of gaming commission personnel checking the dice or the cards during play.

Many of you keep saying its unlikely that dealers would comply with directives from upper management to cheat, and I agree with you. But use your imagination; if the craps table is juiced only a few people know about it and none of the dealers would have a clue. And if Shufflemaster is not selling a card shuffler that identifies the card sequence coming up, and transmitting that data to someone in the control room, and altering the sequence of cards coming out, then I'm applying for a provisional patent on that Monday morning.

I don't want to believe that casinos cheat. I know I'm going to lose in the long run, I just want to have a reasonable chance. But losing $8,000 in a few hours of craps playing $5 pass line and 10x odds (which according to the WOO site gives the house only a .0018% edge) makes me question the fairness of the game.



great thread and im glad to see others with an open mind about the integrity and potential of cheating in casinos.

I just find it so funny that people are so quick to defend casinos and say it's impossible they would cheat because they wouldn't risk wanting to get caught and that the risks far outweigh the gains as well as needing so many people to be involved in the scandal with someone being bound to blow it all up; i find that all laughable. To think we've had so many companies/corporations in the business world in other industries who were corrupt such as Enron and others, and to think of all industries, the casino industry isnt possibly corrupt in some fashion? Also dealers and pit bosses and other personnel dont check the cards one by one to see if its an honest deck composition, they just check the back of the cards to make sure they're all there and dont check for the exact deck composition(any tens missing or extra 4s and 5s). So you can right off the bat throw away the 'many people have to be in on it' out the window. Also most casinos dont even fan the cards face up and on top of it the cards come PRE SHUFFLED LOL. Good luck checking the cards now that they're pre shuffled, it will take FOREVER and thats the excuse they give to you.

Also someone go ahead and tell me the chances of getting caught and then go ahead and tell me the chances of being punished. We then have to bring in the fact that we trust the Gaming Commission and they're not working together with casinos to bring in more tax revenue for the state. Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the state to bring in more tax revenue and thus rigging the game for a higher house edge? Who's going to punish the state? The state is the highest authority and outside of federal jurisdiction for this type of case. So all of this boils down to trust. You can have as many commissions as you want, but if the state is willing to rig it for tax revenue, good luck. And only few of the very high management of both the casino and gaming commission have to know about the rig. Dealers, pit bosses, etc will all be out of the loop since they will never see the actual cards and are told what to check.

My gut instinct is that they dont cheat, but my main problem with all of this is how quick people dismiss it that they dont. You would be completely naive to not question the integrity of million/billion $ corporations when money is on the line. If other corporations have been caught in other industries, who's to say out of all industries, the CASINO INDUSTRY wouldn't be corrupt or at least try to manipulate it even more?
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
  • Threads: 43
  • Posts: 1751
March 31st, 2017 at 5:22:31 AM permalink
Casinos that don't use preshuffled cards do in fact check to see if all the cards are there.They examine the backs and fronts.
I have seen a few times where a card has been missing or there has been a duplicate card.
Don't teach an alligator how to swim.
mamat
mamat
Joined: Jul 13, 2015
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 494
March 31st, 2017 at 6:54:46 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

I dealt blackjack for eight years. I avoided getting summarily fired by always maintaining a kissy-kissy attitude with my immediate superiors. Nonetheless, I was often--I would estimate over a dozen times--subjected to intense scrutiny after my table had had a bad shift/day/week. One time, I was pulled off the game and questioned after I had lost $15,000 to a single player. No doubt the surveillance tapes were pulled and gone over minutely as well.

If you've never been employed in this environment (and you obviously haven't, given your naivete), then you might not understand the crap that goes on, EVERY DAY.

And as far as cheating not happening? Don't make me laugh. I knew DOZENS of dealers who cheated on a regular basis. Some were dumping to a confederate, and thus had to destroy the other players to make up for it. Some cheated for themselves. Some cheated high-rollers at the behest of the house (and got double or triple shares of the tokes when they were divvied up). And yes, some dealers cheated the customers JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. It was an ego thing, they laughed and joked about it afterward in the break room, and they had all sorts of wonderful things to say about the players.

By the way, if you could listen to the conversation in the break room for five minutes, you'd never toke the dealer again. The people who toke heavily ("georges") are the ones held in the highest contempt.

I was short-paid on color-up many, many times at craps. (Never been short-paid on BJ color-up or any other table game, just craps).

EVERY single time when I mentioned that I was short one black chip ($100), the craps dealer would shoot me another black chip. No comment from bowman. No recount of chips. No questioning. They knew what they were doing. I knew what they were doing & didn't give them any crap.

Traveling in the 3rd world, I'm very familiar with slow-pay (give part of the change and pause, if the customer walks before getting all their change - tough luck, if customer waits, change continues until the full amount is given).

----
P.S. On the flip side, If I tip well to friendly BJ dealers, I often get favors in my benefit much higher than the cost of tips.
Overpays on complicated stacks, 3:2 payouts on 6:5 games, Double-pays on insurance, double pays on new chips, double pays on any interruption by pit boss, etc... basically anything "plausibly deniable" to the cameras and surveillance.
gordonm888
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
  • Threads: 38
  • Posts: 2605
March 31st, 2017 at 9:59:08 AM permalink
Quote: nyuhoosier

I have watched the routine for introducing new cards hundreds of times. The pit boss opens new decks right there at the table, and the dealer fans them out and methodically counts them down, making sure no cards are missing. (I don't play craps so don't know that process.) Too many people -- including low level employees and card makers -- would have to be in on the conspiracy for it to work.

Deck-fixing simply doesn't happen at mainstream, reputable casinos, so you can get off that horse.



Which shows how out-of-date the controls are. They are checking the integrity of the 52-card decks and then putting them into automated shufflers that can identify the cards before they are shuffled and dealt and the automated shufflers are not checked to see if they have been tampered with. Cheating in the modern era can be done with software and technology.

In (some) Indian casinos, virtually the only forms of controls on table games are to check the financial statistics on the table to protect the casino itself against any Dealers that may be colluding with gamblers. Video games and slot machines have the minimum hand-waving level of controls but there don't seem to be any controls on automated shufflers.
So many better men, a few of them friends, were dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things lived on, and so did I.
GlenG
GlenG
Joined: Feb 5, 2018
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 410
February 6th, 2018 at 12:00:19 AM permalink
"This house cheats I cannot win" as the player proceeds to buy in for another $200

I think the notion is kinda silly...On carny games (Ult, MS Stud, 3-Card etc) the machine doesnt know how many people are playing...how will it know to give the dealer the best hand? What about hand shuffle games..are we all magicians?

If the dealer were to get all 52 cards, do the 7 card riffle, then washes them, then picks the amount of cards at random to the player, and the player picks the amount of cards at random to the dealer..i think the odds dont change at all.
Last edited by: GlenG on Feb 6, 2018
BedWetterBetter
BedWetterBetter
Joined: Oct 20, 2012
  • Threads: 32
  • Posts: 605
February 8th, 2018 at 10:13:27 PM permalink
Eh, I've some seen some shenanigans with Blackjack Dealers in AC and PA switching multiple times in a matter of minutes that would make you question that notion. Especially when it's the same two dealers coming in, burning a card, dealing a few hands and then switching over and over until it seems the house has winning cards. Everyone at the table got up in disgust and asked "Are they trying to sabotage the game so blatantly?"

But I digress, I recently saw an interesting BJ game at Caesar's AC where the dealer was dealing the cards as fast as she could without paying much attention to the cards. One hand she drew to 18 and a guy had two double down hands of 4-7-J & 8-3 -6. She paid out both his double downs without so much as looking at his point totals.

So I thought, if she was that careless and oblivious to what was going on, I would sit down and try to make a few bucks before the jig was up. Somehow, I drew the ire of this dealer as she started to deal even faster when I sat down. I had a hard 13 vs dealer 5, she turns over a 4 and reaches in to take my money. I quickly stop her and say "Hold on, the hand's not over yet." She feigns regret saying "Oh, sorry" Pulls a card and then reaches in for the money... But the card was a 4, so I protest "Hand's still not over, keep going. Final card a 9 for the bust and an angry dealer now having to pay out.

This went on for a while with the dealer making more mistakes ( like Busting with 22 and quickly taking all bets off the table before anyone realized, except me of course) and me advising that maybe she should slow down and pay attention to the cards. She then gets agitated and says "So what if I make a mistake? They can be undone and my supervisor will tell me when I'm not doing my job right."

I shrugged and said "That's fine, but wouldn't it be easier to do it right the first time instead of wasting time making mistakes?" Again, no change from this dealer, so I sat out and watched others deal with her. She made come classic mistakes such as players hits 16, gets a 6 and dealer pays them out. Player hits Soft 14, pulls a Q and she tries to take the money before he even draws another card.

And the funniest one was a Double down 9-2 vs dealer Ace. She offers Insurance and nobody buys it, she checks for Blackjack and then turns up her card... Everyone thinks she has BJ as that is what she is pantomiming with the card flip. However, it was another Ace in the hole and everyone jumps with excitement and yells "STOP!"

She calls the floor person over and he declares that the hand will continue nd he watches the hand play out. So the person with 11 goes to double down and gets a 10, he happily waits for the dealer to draw a card and it's a K, followed by a J. Before he can count his winnings the dealer starts taking his chips and he shouts "WHAT the Hell are you doing!?!?" She goes, "You have 19!"

He retorts "Are you blind, I have 21!" She goes "Alright relax, PUSH then!" He shouts back "You got 22. You Busted, Pay up!!!" She turns to see her floor person still standing there and says "Floor, I thought it was a push, I'm gonna pay him now, ok?" Floor person obviously approves it and HE apologizes on her behalf.

I just shook my head and walked away ahead at that point and in complete disbelief that they would let someone blatantly try and cheat people by doing a lousy job. Ah well, that's CET for ya!

  • Jump to: