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JerryLogan
JerryLogan
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
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October 24th, 2010 at 8:53:33 AM permalink
What land-based casino would cheat? Sure there may from time to time be an occasional dealer or other individual who might pull something over on a novice, but to think that written or unwritten policies are in place that allow cheating or that machines are manipulated to operate anywhere outside of the parameters they are regulated to operate within, seems too far-fetched to any businessman. Remember, eventually cheaters always get caught.
TheKeymaster
TheKeymaster
Joined: Nov 2, 2010
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November 2nd, 2010 at 7:41:28 PM permalink
From what I've read, it seems like there are a lot of people that wear tin-foil hats while at home. First, let me introduce myself. I was a games dealer for about a year and am currently in surveillance for our local casino in MO. Being in both of these departments, I've learned pretty much all there is to know about how the casino is ran. (We are required to take multiple tests in surveillance that cover everything from state regulations, to the ICs of every department.)

That being said, there are others on here that have the right idea about casinos being ABLE to cheat in the first place. Everyone from the pit managers, to gaming commission, to surveillance....hell, even the CSMs, would have to be in on it. If you imagine the scope of everything, it seems quite ridiculous that most casinos would even try to cheat players.

Other than that, I'm really unsure as to how people like mlk say they have cheated players. Are you some kind of shuffling master and can stack multiple decks? (IF you don't have shuffling machines...) Are you hiding cards in your sleeves? Really the only way I can see dealers 'cheating' is the stickman on craps, or they're shortchanging on payouts. Other than that...give me a break people. This isn't the 1900's anymore, and aside from casinos being shut down and losing their business over cheating, they would also probably be sued by the person that was cheated.

There is little to no incentive for a casino to cheat knowingly and willingly...and is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying it's impossible on a smaller scale, but those people risk a lot for little reward.
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 2nd, 2010 at 7:58:31 PM permalink
Quote: TheKeymaster

From what I've read, it seems like there are a lot of people that wear tin-foil hats while at home. First, let me introduce myself. I was a games dealer for about a year and am currently in surveillance for our local casino in MO. Being in both of these departments, I've learned pretty much all there is to know about how the casino is ran. (We are required to take multiple tests in surveillance that cover everything from state regulations, to the ICs of every department.)

That being said, there are others on here that have the right idea about casinos being ABLE to cheat in the first place. Everyone from the pit managers, to gaming commission, to surveillance....hell, even the CSMs, would have to be in on it. If you imagine the scope of everything, it seems quite ridiculous that most casinos would even try to cheat players.

Other than that, I'm really unsure as to how people like mlk say they have cheated players. Are you some kind of shuffling master and can stack multiple decks? (IF you don't have shuffling machines...) Are you hiding cards in your sleeves? Really the only way I can see dealers 'cheating' is the stickman on craps, or they're shortchanging on payouts. Other than that...give me a break people. This isn't the 1900's anymore, and aside from casinos being shut down and losing their business over cheating, they would also probably be sued by the person that was cheated.

There is little to no incentive for a casino to cheat knowingly and willingly...and is HIGHLY unlikely. I'm not saying it's impossible on a smaller scale, but those people risk a lot for little reward.



Why would casinos cheat? To increase the bottom line. Especially when revenues are falling--like now.
What is the risk that a casino runs by cheating? Zero--no casino in Nevada has ever been shut down, even temporarily, for cheating. And the reason for that is either that casinos never cheat, or that they cheat but aren't caught, or are caught but not punished. You guess which.
How easy is it for a casino to cheat? Ridiculously so.
How easy is it for an individual dealer to cheat? Not very easy, but when I was a casino dealer, other dealers showed me moves that would make your hair stand on end--if you could detect them, that is.
How easy is it for a player to tell that he has been cheated? Almost impossible.
How easy is it for a player to obtain redress, if he feels that he has been cheated? Impossible. See answer to second question.

Given the records of malfeasance in other major industries, I cannot see why we, logically, should give the casino industry a free pass and assume that their dealings with the public are lily-white and free of suspicion.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
superrick
superrick
Joined: Jul 14, 2010
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November 2nd, 2010 at 9:33:29 PM permalink
.......
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
TheKeymaster
TheKeymaster
Joined: Nov 2, 2010
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November 2nd, 2010 at 10:35:42 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Why would casinos cheat? To increase the bottom line. Especially when revenues are falling--like now.
What is the risk that a casino runs by cheating? Zero--no casino in Nevada has ever been shut down, even temporarily, for cheating. And the reason for that is either that casinos never cheat, or that they cheat but aren't caught, or are caught but not punished. You guess which.
How easy is it for a casino to cheat? Ridiculously so.
How easy is it for an individual dealer to cheat? Not very easy, but when I was a casino dealer, other dealers showed me moves that would make your hair stand on end--if you could detect them, that is.
How easy is it for a player to tell that he has been cheated? Almost impossible.
How easy is it for a player to obtain redress, if he feels that he has been cheated? Impossible. See answer to second question.

Given the records of malfeasance in other major industries, I cannot see why we, logically, should give the casino industry a free pass and assume that their dealings with the public are lily-white and free of suspicion.



Increase the bottom line? Do you realize how much casinos actually make? Do you have numbers that back up your claim that revenues are falling? Doubtful. Most of your posts have been about things that no one else has even heard of, let alone seen, but somehow you're in the know.

Which brings me to my next point. You seem to think that all patrons have the intelligence level of a child. Almost impossible for a player to tell they've been cheated? Let's see...I know several dealers and surveillance operators that go to other casinos to gamble. I know doctors, magicians (Yes, magicians, they know just a bit about card manipulation and tricks..), and several others with above average intelligence that come to our establishment, as well as the more 'mainstream' casinos outside of our city. Do you really believe that those people, especially the ones that are frequent table players, are not going to notice something? I know I sure as in hell would, I notice little mistakes all the time working in my department. Since you haven't given an actual example of cheating through all your steam, maybe you can enlighten us poor folk.

Your last statement is the one I laugh at the most. You really, honestly believe, that a casino can cheat, get caught, and get away with it that easy? You're very dense and ignorant if you believe so. That's what the Gaming Commission is for. They don't work for the casino, they are there to regulate the casino and take care of problems like this. Even IF the GC was somehow 'in on it', that's what lawyers are for.

You are a LOT of talk, with NO evidence to back up any of your wild claims. You would be an excellent politician...
mkl654321
mkl654321
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 2nd, 2010 at 11:46:30 PM permalink
Quote: TheKeymaster

Increase the bottom line? Do you realize how much casinos actually make? Do you have numbers that back up your claim that revenues are falling? Doubtful. Most of your posts have been about things that no one else has even heard of, let alone seen, but somehow you're in the know.

Which brings me to my next point. You seem to think that all patrons have the intelligence level of a child. Almost impossible for a player to tell they've been cheated? Let's see...I know several dealers and surveillance operators that go to other casinos to gamble. I know doctors, magicians (Yes, magicians, they know just a bit about card manipulation and tricks..), and several others with above average intelligence that come to our establishment, as well as the more 'mainstream' casinos outside of our city. Do you really believe that those people, especially the ones that are frequent table players, are not going to notice something? I know I sure as in hell would, I notice little mistakes all the time working in my department. Since you haven't given an actual example of cheating through all your steam, maybe you can enlighten us poor folk.

Your last statement is the one I laugh at the most. You really, honestly believe, that a casino can cheat, get caught, and get away with it that easy? You're very dense and ignorant if you believe so. That's what the Gaming Commission is for. They don't work for the casino, they are there to regulate the casino and take care of problems like this. Even IF the GC was somehow 'in on it', that's what lawyers are for.

You are a LOT of talk, with NO evidence to back up any of your wild claims. You would be an excellent politician...



To address your points in turn, ignoring your snotty manner for the time being:

There have been literally dozens of posts about falling casino revenues on this forum, and there are plenty of linked news articles. Casino financial statements are part of the public record, as are revenue reports. You can check any of this information to help stem your incredulity.

Yes, it is impossible for all but a very few trained and skilled persons to detect cheating. If you want an example, hell, even I can deal seconds, and no one notices a thing. And I'm pretty lousy at it.

I may be "dense and ignorant", but please give me an example of a casino's license being suspended or withdrawn as a result of being caught cheating.

And now I'll return to your snotty manner. You are, I'm sure, capable of disagreeing with someone without name-calling, innuendo, and ad hominem attacks. I'd like you to consider the wild possibility that you may not be 100% correct, and modify your disrespectful tone accordingly. Otherwise, I regret to say that I will consider it not worth my while to converse with you.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 3rd, 2010 at 3:19:41 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

To address your points in turn, ignoring your snotty manner for the time being:

Otherwise, I regret to say that I will consider it not worth my while to converse with you.

This is the funniest thing mkl has posted yet!! As our experience with JL has shown, you will continue to converse, explain, demonstrate, pontificate, explicate, over and over and over, repeatedly, again, and again, infinitely, forever, incessantly, non stop.......

weaselman
weaselman
Joined: Jul 11, 2010
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November 3rd, 2010 at 7:16:19 AM permalink
Quote: TheKeymaster

I know doctors, magicians (Yes, magicians, they know just a bit about card manipulation and tricks..), and several others with above average intelligence that come to our establishment, as well as the more 'mainstream' casinos outside of our city. Do you really believe that those people, especially the ones that are frequent table players, are not going to notice something?



How do you suggest a magician should notice a few face cards in a deck replaced by fives? X-ray vision?
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
Joined: May 10, 2010
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November 3rd, 2010 at 7:52:45 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman

How do you suggest a magician should notice a few face cards in a deck replaced by fives? X-ray vision?


The same way that the Amazing Randi was able to show what an out-and-out fraud Uri Geller was. And sent Barbara Walters crying. Good magicians have sufficient experience with dexterity.
austintx
austintx
Joined: Oct 6, 2010
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November 3rd, 2010 at 8:17:45 AM permalink
I play often at the blackjack high rollers table, double deck, usually with a bunch of guys who are betting much larger sums than me, and when they come to change the cards, shuffle, or do anything at all to the cards, I sit there and watch every move. What I observe though is that everyone else gets up, takes a break, goes to the bathroom, are on their cell phones. Even these guys betting lots of money. They then reappear when the cards are all ready to go, as if magic just happened.

I don't think that cheating can occur systematically in land based casinos, with all the safeguards and oversight, but still guys we need to watch. We (as players) are the main way to stop cheating by casinos. Everyone can and will cheat if given the opportunity. Think of all of the US corporations in general that have cheated in some way or another over the past five years (multiple major financial institutions, manufacturing companies, and even the Vatican), because they thought they could get away with it. And you all think that casino corporations of all things are holier than them? If players don't watch and rules and regulators don't exist, then of course casinos will cheat. It is human nature. Even though they have a house edge, they will still cheat because it is human nature to be greedy. So keeping up the appearance by players of watching for cheating is what makes table games honest. It is hard enough to win even on an honest game. So I think we owe it to ourselves to keep an eye on everything, and keep regulators out there, so that cheating will be minimized. Even though I get as pissed off as anyone in blackjack when the dealer draws to 21 for three busts hands in a row, I really trust that that was chance, not cheating. Because I do my part in watching intently.

Now online casinos, that is a whole different story. There is absolutely nothing a player can do to judge whether cheating has occurred, and no recourse should you suspect cheating has occurred. Any outcome can be chance. So when a dealer draws to 21 three times in a row, you have absolutely no idea that that was real. Except to trust that a website run by offshore mobsters "would never cheat." My 10 year old son (he's a computer genius, by the way) could write a computer program to track betting patterns and bankrolls and cards and have it worked into the computer dealing algorithms. Yah, no cheating is possible, right...

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