Casinos don't cheat.....prove it.
I posed a question in an earlier thread asking whether anyone had knowledge of gaming control checking dice or cards. This was the only comment.
q=SanchoPanza]Before the tables open for the day, I've seen CCC personnel in Atlantic City walking around as the calipers were being deployed. It's not a big deal. And it's probably more in the casinos' interest to have unbiased dice in the event that sharp-eyed customers might pick up on some anomaly.
Who are CCC personnel?
I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who witnessed gaming control snatching the dice off the table and checking them right there. If I am ever lucky enough to see gaming control in a casino (and so far I have not been lucky) I plan to ask for identification and call their office to confirm they don't work for the casino.
Has anyone ever seen gaming control check the dice or the cards? Any first-hand knowledge? Any gaming commission readers out there?
Deck-fixing simply doesn't happen at mainstream, reputable casinos, so you can get off that horse.
There is no porcelain tea pot in orbit around mars. Prove it ...
You can't?
I guess there must be one.
--Dorothy
Quote: HeadlockWho are CCC personnel?
The Casino Control Commission, Jersey's answer to the NGC.
The CCC, is a commission appointed by the governor. The staff in the CCC booths in the casinos, are just ordinary state employees.
It would surprise me to learn that there wasn't a similar booth with state or federal employees in every casino in the nation - or at least the ones that have table games. (I can't see it in those little slot machine parlors scattered all over Nevada...)
FYI: This topic got my curiosity piqued, so I did some surfing. There's lots of interesting reading at http://www.nigc.gov/ - the National Indian Gaming Commission.
On a side note, a few years ago, NJ had a state budget crisis and all non essential services got shutdown, including the CCC, This, despite the fact that the casinos pay the state much more than the CCC staff's salaries. The stupidity of that rule got changed immediately after the budget crisis got resolved.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIn every NJ casino, there's a CCC booth that's always manned. There's nothing stopping you from going up and asking questions.
The CCC, is a commission appointed by the governor. The staff in the CCC booths in the casinos, are just ordinary state employees.
It would surprise me to learn that there wasn't a similar booth with state or federal employees in every casino in the nation - or at least the ones that have table games. (I can't see it in those little slot machine parlors scattered all over Nevada...)
FYI: This topic got my curiosity piqued, so I did some surfing. There's lots of interesting reading at http://www.nigc.gov/ - the National Indian Gaming Commission.
On a side note, a few years ago, NJ had a state budget crisis and all non essential services got shutdown, including the CCC, This, despite the fact that the casinos pay the state much more than the CCC staff's salaries. The stupidity of that rule got changed immediately after the budget crisis got resolved.
I read a bit about the CCC. It appears the Division of Gaming Enforcement enforces the gaming laws and regulations. Does anyone know if other gaming control entities maintain a presence in casinos as the CCC does in NJ?
Quote: DJTeddyBearIn every NJ casino, there's a CCC booth that's always manned. There's nothing stopping you from going up and asking questions.
Like its big brother in Nevada, the New Jersey Gaming Control Board is a paper tiger.
I was at a crap table at the GarbageCana in Atlantic City several years ago. The table had been winning--BIG. The shooter had a point of eight. He shot the dice---and the dice went behind the dealer's chip stacks, Only three of us players could see the result--five-three, winner on the line! The three of us cheered while everyone else strained to see. The STICKMAN THEN CALLED "SEVEN-OUT" and HIT THE DICE WITH HIS STICK, "destroying the dice"!! The dealers then swooped up several thousand dollars' worth of bets. Of course, the three of us screamed bloody murder. We wound up stomping over to the little booth where the Gaming agent sat. We explained what had happened, and demanded action. He refused. We demanded that the casino surveillance tapes be examined. He refused. We demanded to see casino mangement. He refused to even try to talk to them. The upshot was that we returned to the table, demanded to see the tapes and/or the casino manager, and were ultimately thrown out, after about 45 minutes of fruitless effort.
The guy in the booth might as well be dead, or wearing a clown suit.
NJ is the only gaming jurisdiction that has a live (or dead) representative on site. For all the good it does.
Really, though, doesn't it become sort of a 1000 lemmings argument(TM)? We see that 1000 lemmings walk off a cliff, but my lemming is the exception. Why? Why is the casino industry the exception? If that's a bad logic argument, then explain "logically" why?
Okay, I'll answer my own challenge -- sure but many (probably most) businesses don't have strict mechanisms set up to monitor them? But on the other hand, someone (I assume) was suppose to be watching Wall Street and look what happened there.
(However, I myself, only play at the fair casinos. Don't think so. Well, prove it then.)
(also file under: police sometimes lie, politicians sometimes tell the truth, it's rarely an all or nothing thing)
I also would like to find money sometimes growing on trees, but so far, no luck. I remain hopeful.
Quote: Headlock
I read a bit about the CCC. It appears the Division of Gaming Enforcement enforces the gaming laws and regulations. Does anyone know if other gaming control entities maintain a presence in casinos as the CCC does in NJ?
I have first hand experience with the Indiana Gaming Commission. I was playing Ultimate Texas Hold'em at Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg, IN. I had asked earlier on if Surrender was offered (throw away a hand with bad kickers, when the board has 3-of-a-kind of better and still win the bonus.) The staff said yes; well a shift change and crew change later, and the answer was all of a sudden, NO!
I called the casino manager, who sided with the floor personnel. I demanded to speak with a Gaming commission rep, who informed me that he would look at the rules. I held up the game for an hour (ok I was the only one there, but still would not bet anything until I had a resolved answer.)
He came back about 20 minutes later (after waiting 40 minutes already), and he said that I was right, and they would be refunding me my money. I proceeded to play, and I think lose, but that's beside the point.
I also agree that the argument, that cansinos have no need to cheat and incentives not to cheat is a strong one. And I suppose at some point, Bill Gates had more than enough money that he could have stopped working long ago. But reasons why people do things aren't always this or that, or even one thing. Someone may cheat just because they can (or it's a challenge) I suspect. Don't ask me to prove that. thanks.
For someone to suggest that a dealer has "cheated" is to suggest that the dealer cares whether or not you win or lose your wager. If the dealer had been told by mgmt that the more money the table (or house) makes, the larger his paycheque will be then I can understand why this might possibly happen - but we all know that the dealer makes his lousy wages plus tips... and I think we also all know that dealers know they're more likely to be toked by winning, happy players. The casino's bottom line for that shift/day/year has no bearing on what that dealer will put into his pocket so why would they try to pull a fast one on a player? Answer - they wouldn't.
The dealers I've faced in my many years of casino gambling (including most Strip casinos, Reno casinos, AC casinos, "Indian" casinos and various other assorted casinos around the globe) are, for the most part disinterested automatons who are there to get through their shift as smoothly and quickly as possible and go home to the wife and kids as soon as possible. If their tray needs 3 fills in a shift they're no more likely to care than if they bust the biggest whale in the joint.
If someone is going to suggest that a casino has told one or more dealers to stiff the players when they think they can get away with it then I'd say that's a pretty far fetched accusation.
Dealers make errors and if a supervisor/manager/gaming commission rep sides in the favor of the house when you know that they're in the wrong then you've got a legitimate beef at that point but do you think that your $5 - $500 bet in question is really going to make much if any difference to them at the end of the day? Not likely.
Quote: TheNightfly
For someone to suggest that a dealer has "cheated" is to suggest that the dealer cares whether or not you win or lose your wager.
Dealers certainly cheat. It is one of the biggest holes in the casino. But, they cheat on behalf of themselves, not the casino. Most often this occurs with an accomplice at the table posing as a player. Sometimes it's just outright theft.
--Dorothy
Quote: DorothyGaleDealers certainly cheat. It is one of the biggest holes in the casino. But, they cheat on behalf of themselves, not the casino. Most often this occurs with an accomplice at the table posing as a player. Sometimes it's just outright theft.
--Dorothy
Or they just outright steal chips from other players.
Quote: various wsgc documents
While playing cards as a patron, he admittedly took another player’s chips.
...
Set aside a portion of a player’s winning wager and dropped it in his tip box.
...
Placed or pressed toke bets without the authorization of casino customers while working as a craps dealer.
Quote: mipletOr they just outright steal chips from other players.
Yes, absolutely. But, this theft is not to benefit the casino -- that's my point.
Thanks for the examples. You are a true munchkin.
--Dorothy
Quote: mkl654321Like its big brother in Nevada, the New Jersey Gaming Control Board is a paper tiger.
I was at a crap table at the GarbageCana in Atlantic City several years ago. The table had been winning--BIG. The shooter had a point of eight. He shot the dice---and the dice went behind the dealer's chip stacks, Only three of us players could see the result--five-three, winner on the line! The three of us cheered while everyone else strained to see. The STICKMAN THEN CALLED "SEVEN-OUT" and HIT THE DICE WITH HIS STICK, "destroying the dice"!! The dealers then swooped up several thousand dollars' worth of bets. Of course, the three of us screamed bloody murder. We wound up stomping over to the little booth where the Gaming agent sat. We explained what had happened, and demanded action. He refused. We demanded that the casino surveillance tapes be examined. He refused. We demanded to see casino mangement. He refused to even try to talk to them. The upshot was that we returned to the table, demanded to see the tapes and/or the casino manager, and were ultimately thrown out, after about 45 minutes of fruitless effort.
The guy in the booth might as well be dead, or wearing a clown suit.
NJ is the only gaming jurisdiction that has a live (or dead) representative on site. For all the good it does.
I saw something similar once. The dice landed and the stickman moved the stick as if to collect the dice and swiftly and deftly turned one die before making the call. "Seven Out!"
Quote: TheNightflyAs the title of this thread is "Casinos don't cheat" I assumed that you were looking for proof one way or another about casinos cheating players. Yes, I'm sure that dealer/player collusion has taken its fair share from the house but if we're talking about a dealer "cheating" a player by purposely taking their money in an illegal (or "against the house rules" if you will) fashion for the sole purpose of adding this amount of money to the daily take then I would hope that you would agree that this is highly unlikely as there is absolutely no upside for the dealer. If a dealer is going to squirrel chips he certainly isn't going to potentially rouse the suspicion of a player by taking their money when there's a tray of chips in front of him. Sheesh.
Actually I'm looking for proof of a deterrent. Specifically gaming commission officials checking the dice and cards while in play. So far nothing.
The dealer slid the stack behind her stacks to the box-man. While the box-man was counting out the chips, I noticed a green chip behind the dealers stack of chips. She placed it on top of her chips. The box-man said $475. I said it should be $500 and that the dealer did not slide the entire stack over and placed a green chip on her stack.
While acknowledging she did put a green chip on her stack, she claimed it fell off of her stack.
Getting nowhere with the box-man, I went over to the CCC and explained what happened. He said to follow him and we both walked over to the crap table. He pointed at the dealer and said give him a green chip. Without hesitation she handed me MY green chip.
Quote: TiltpoulI have first hand experience with the Indiana Gaming Commission. I was playing Ultimate Texas Hold'em at Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg, IN. I had asked earlier on if Surrender was offered (throw away a hand with bad kickers, when the board has 3-of-a-kind of better and still win the bonus.) The staff said yes; well a shift change and crew change later, and the answer was all of a sudden, NO!
I called the casino manager, who sided with the floor personnel. I demanded to speak with a Gaming commission rep, who informed me that he would look at the rules. I held up the game for an hour (ok I was the only one there, but still would not bet anything until I had a resolved answer.)
He came back about 20 minutes later (after waiting 40 minutes already), and he said that I was right, and they would be refunding me my money. I proceeded to play, and I think lose, but that's beside the point.
Was this gaming commission representative on site or was he summoned to the casino by your call?
Quote: FatGeezusI was playing craps and standing at the end of the table next to the dealer. I was leaving the table and coloring up a stack of green chips ($25) that totaled $500.
The dealer slid the stack behind her stacks to the box-man. While the box-man was counting out the chips, I noticed a green chip behind the dealers stack of chips. She placed it on top of her chips. The box-man said $475. I said it should be $500 and that the dealer did not slide the entire stack over and placed a green chip on her stack.
While acknowledging she did put a green chip on her stack, she claimed it fell off of her stack.
Getting nowhere with the box-man, I went over to the CCC and explained what happened. He said to follow him and we both walked over to the crap table. He pointed at the dealer and said give him a green chip. Without hesitation she handed me MY green chip.
That's interesting. Still not the kind of deterrent to cheating that I'm looking for, but a positive sign nonetheless. In this instance, what do you think was the dealers and box man's incentive for stiffing you $25?
Quote: rxwineI thought some other reasoning (on another thread) for casino cheating was fairly reasonable (I'm not sure who made it) that many (a lot, here and there?) businesses can be found cheating their customers. (crime reports). From everything to dry cleaners to bankers. Does someone need me to prove it? I will do it with Google news archives, but only if you pay me $10,000 for going to the effort. : ) Otherwise, I do nothing!
Really, though, doesn't it become sort of a 1000 lemmings argument(TM)? We see that 1000 lemmings walk off a cliff, but my lemming is the exception. Why? Why is the casino industry the exception? If that's a bad logic argument, then explain "logically" why?
Okay, I'll answer my own challenge -- sure but many (probably most) businesses don't have strict mechanisms set up to monitor them? But on the other hand, someone (I assume) was suppose to be watching Wall Street and look what happened there.
(However, I myself, only play at the fair casinos. Don't think so. Well, prove it then.)
(also file under: police sometimes lie, politicians sometimes tell the truth, it's rarely an all or nothing thing)
I also would like to find money sometimes growing on trees, but so far, no luck. I remain hopeful.
My point exactly. Why (when most gaming concerns are losing millions) would they cheat, because they always have the edge, and can certainly legally change the rules to increase their edge.
Most of us would agree that cheating the player occurred with some regularity during the Mob control days. Why should we now believe the casino industry is squeaky clean?
As for strict control mechanisms, as you put it, there are gaming control commissions, boards, whatever, that have jurisdiction over casino operations. But still I ask; has anyone ever seen these regulators in the casino unannounced, checking the dice or cards at random?
Quote: HeadlockBut still I ask; has anyone ever seen these regulators in the casino unannounced, checking the dice or cards at random?
Actually, one thing I was wondering about (for the local Las Vegas residents to answer maybe) if they've ever seen a news feature on the ins and outs of the gaming commision at work.
I've been here 10 years, and haven't, but maybe I missed it. I'm not a super news junkie or anything, but I've seen a fair amount of local news over the years. I can't be the only one who would like to see this covered. (like every 5 years or something would be nice)
Quote: HeadlockWas this gaming commission representative on site or was he summoned to the casino by your call?
He was on site, and this was early in the morning (like 5am) on a Tuesday. Most midwest states require each casino to have a Gaming Board rep on site, at least, that's the case in Illinois, Indiana and Missouri for sure.
Quote: TiltpoulHe was on site, and this was early in the morning (like 5am) on a Tuesday. Most midwest states require each casino to have a Gaming Board rep on site, at least, that's the case in Illinois, Indiana and Missouri for sure.
Thanks for the info. I'm going to Colorado next weekend and Missouri the next. I will be checking for gaming commission personnel.
Quote: TheNightflyFor those of you who may be dealers, I'll apologize in advance if I say something that you might find personally offensive but...
For someone to suggest that a dealer has "cheated" is to suggest that the dealer cares whether or not you win or lose your wager. If the dealer had been told by mgmt that the more money the table (or house) makes, the larger his paycheque will be then I can understand why this might possibly happen - but we all know that the dealer makes his lousy wages plus tips... and I think we also all know that dealers know they're more likely to be toked by winning, happy players. The casino's bottom line for that shift/day/year has no bearing on what that dealer will put into his pocket so why would they try to pull a fast one on a player? Answer - they wouldn't.
It is calculated to a fare-thee-well exactly how much a given table "should" be making per shift/day/week/eternity. It is similarly calculated how much a dealer should be making (for the house). If those numbers start to come in consistently low, then suspicion will gradually fall on the dealer (not all that gradually, actually). Therefore a perfectly honest dealer who has recently lost a lot of money to the players will have an increasing incentive to cheat, if he can get away with it, to restore the balance. This is often done without the house's knowledge.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the dealer has insufficient incentive to do this. A high-end Strip property dealer can make $300+ a shift on a busy weekend. If his game shows a profit at least to the extent that it "should", then that's additional job security in an environment where you can be fired instantly without cause, and without recourse.
The trouble is, casinos are still run by people who think that the house should NEVER lose. Many "old-school" pit bosses will summarily fire an "unlucky" dealer, reasoning (incorrectly) that that dealer is probably cheating, and conversely (also incorrectly), a dealer that rakes in the money for the house must NOT be cheating. Remember, the people running casinos aren't savvy businessmen--they're ignorant thugs.
Quote: mkl654321Therefore a perfectly honest dealer who has recently lost a lot of money to the players will have an increasing incentive to cheat, if he can get away with it, to restore the balance. This is often done without the house's knowledge.
mkl, the basic premise of this post was a question regarding the practical impossibility of proving that casinos don't cheat. Thus far neither I nor anyone else has been able to provide this proof. You, on the other hand use the word "often" when referring to the number of times a dealer will "cheat", or take a player's money to "restore the balance" of how much a table should be making. Keeping in mind that dealers rotate and are given breaks by other dealers and are not soleley responsible for what occurs on any given table during any given period of time, I'll be interested to read the evidence you have which will show that dealers often do this.
Dealers know that they are being scrutinized from many angles for the entirety of the time they are on the casino floor and especially when they are in a pit and dealing in front of an open tray - probably more so than are the players to whom they are dealing. If you think a dealer might feel his job could be in jeopardy by dealing a square game to a winning player, this same dealer will also know what repercussions he will face by making the slightest gaffe or indescretion during the course of play. No, I'm afraid you're way off the mark on this one.
Quote: TheNightflymkl, the basic premise of this post was a question regarding the practical impossibility of proving that casinos don't cheat. Thus far neither I nor anyone else has been able to provide this proof. You, on the other hand use the word "often" when referring to the number of times a dealer will "cheat", or take a player's money to "restore the balance" of how much a table should be making. Keeping in mind that dealers rotate and are given breaks by other dealers and are not soleley responsible for what occurs on any given table during any given period of time, I'll be interested to read the evidence you have which will show that dealers often do this.
Dealers know that they are being scrutinized from many angles for the entirety of the time they are on the casino floor and especially when they are in a pit and dealing in front of an open tray - probably more so than are the players to whom they are dealing. If you think a dealer might feel his job could be in jeopardy by dealing a square game to a winning player, this same dealer will also know what repercussions he will face by making the slightest gaffe or indescretion during the course of play. No, I'm afraid you're way off the mark on this one.
I dealt blackjack for eight years. I avoided getting summarily fired by always maintaining a kissy-kissy attitude with my immediate superiors. Nonetheless, I was often--I would estimate over a dozen times--subjected to intense scrutiny after my table had had a bad shift/day/week. One time, I was pulled off the game and questioned after I had lost $15,000 to a single player. No doubt the surveillance tapes were pulled and gone over minutely as well.
If you've never been employed in this environment (and you obviously haven't, given your naivete), then you might not understand the crap that goes on, EVERY DAY.
And as far as cheating not happening? Don't make me laugh. I knew DOZENS of dealers who cheated on a regular basis. Some were dumping to a confederate, and thus had to destroy the other players to make up for it. Some cheated for themselves. Some cheated high-rollers at the behest of the house (and got double or triple shares of the tokes when they were divvied up). And yes, some dealers cheated the customers JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. It was an ego thing, they laughed and joked about it afterward in the break room, and they had all sorts of wonderful things to say about the players.
By the way, if you could listen to the conversation in the break room for five minutes, you'd never toke the dealer again. The people who toke heavily ("georges") are the ones held in the highest contempt.
Quote: HeadlockMy point exactly. Why (when most gaming concerns are losing millions) would they cheat, because they always have the edge, and can certainly legally change the rules to increase their edge.
Because.
They.
Can.
(with TOTAL impunity)
Quote: mkl654321...This is often done without the house's knowledge.
Quote: TheNightflymkl, the basic premise of this post was a question regarding the practical impossibility of proving that casinos don't cheat. Thus far neither I nor anyone else has been able to provide this proof. You, on the other hand use the word "often" when referring to the number of times a dealer will "cheat".
NightFly, You're thinking that mkl suggests that it happens a lot.
I think mkl meant that WHEN it happens, more often than not, the house doesn't know it's happening.
----
EDIT:
We were typing at the same time.
Apparently, I'm mistaken.
Quote: SOOPOOYou actually know of a dealer who was fired because he was 'unlucky'? I doubt it. I would think a 'high end' dealer would be FAR more worried about his job if it was found out he was cheating a patron. I notice dealers are happy, not fearing for their jobs, when their tables are winning for the patrons. They, and the casinos, know that over time the house edge will take care of itself....
Not "a" dealer. More like seven or eight dealers. Fortunately, the charges being bogus, the casino didn't bother to document them (the dealer was just told to "go home, and pick up your final paycheck tomorrow"), so the dealers in question could find another job down the street the next day.
As I've said before, a dealer who is losing will come under more and more intense scrutiny. It ain't fair, and it ain't rational, but it is what it is. The happy dealers you've observed have just been raping the players for weeks, and have nothing to worry about. The same dealers, if they had had several losing shifts recently, would be breaking into a cold sweat.
And the casinos don't "know" diddly about the mathematics. They are under the delusion that the house edge means they should win over and over, constantly, without interruption, all the time. If Grandma wins three $5 hands in a row, she's a cheater or card counter and they will drag her back to the security room to strip-search her, or at least they will WANT to. I used only a minimal amount of hyperbole just then.
EDIT: The more I thought about this, the more crazy it sounds. If my bosses asked me to cheat, I'd assume that it was a setup to test my integrity, a la ABSCAM. I suppose all of those honorable dealers are just fired on the spot right away. Must be a lot of dealers that they spend weeks to train and hire that they can very quickly. Amazing that none of them have gotten together to blow the lid off of this insider cheating.
Also, how do they cheat at Roulette and/or Craps? Loaded dice? Shortpays? Magnetic Roulette ball that scans that table for an empty number?
Quote: mkl654321
And the casinos don't "know" diddly about the mathematics. They are under the delusion that the house edge means they should win over and over, constantly, without interruption, all the time.
I'd kind of like to get confirmation from the Wizard on this one, since he is sometimes paid by casinos to do the very math that they don't know anything about.
Me too, but he never said the bosses ask them to cheat. Only that the bosses look at the numbers, and the dealers cheat on their own, to make the numbers look good.Quote: cclub79If my bosses asked me to cheat, I'd assume that it was a setup to test my integrity...
If you think the casinos may cheat you, don't go to any casinos.
Quote: DJTeddyBearMe too, but he never said the bosses ask them to cheat. Only that the bosses look at the numbers, and the dealers cheat on their own, to make the numbers look good.
Quote:
some cheated high-rollers at the behest of the house (and got double or triple shares of the tokes when they were divvied up)
Quote: NareedI'll just say this once:
If you think the casinos may cheat you, don't go to any casinos.
I think that's why some of us are taking this thread seriously. I don't believe that cheating in the games I play is occurring, yet someone who claims inside knowledge is saying that it is indeed pervasive. A reasonable discussion seems warranted.
Quote: mkl654321I dealt blackjack for eight years. I avoided getting summarily fired by always maintaining a kissy-kissy attitude with my immediate superiors. Nonetheless, I was often--I would estimate over a dozen times--subjected to intense scrutiny after my table had had a bad shift/day/week. One time, I was pulled off the game and questioned after I had lost $15,000 to a single player. No doubt the surveillance tapes were pulled and gone over minutely as well.
If you've never been employed in this environment (and you obviously haven't, given your naivete), then you might not understand the crap that goes on, EVERY DAY.
And as far as cheating not happening? Don't make me laugh. I knew DOZENS of dealers who cheated on a regular basis. Some were dumping to a confederate, and thus had to destroy the other players to make up for it. Some cheated for themselves. Some cheated high-rollers at the behest of the house (and got double or triple shares of the tokes when they were divvied up). And yes, some dealers cheated the customers JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT. It was an ego thing, they laughed and joked about it afterward in the break room, and they had all sorts of wonderful things to say about the players.
By the way, if you could listen to the conversation in the break room for five minutes, you'd never toke the dealer again. The people who toke heavily ("georges") are the ones held in the highest contempt.
Thanks, mkl.
Finally some substance.
What do you know about roulette?
Many of you keep saying its unlikely that dealers would comply with directives from upper management to cheat, and I agree with you. But use your imagination; if the craps table is juiced only a few people know about it and none of the dealers would have a clue. And if Shufflemaster is not selling a card shuffler that identifies the card sequence coming up, and transmitting that data to someone in the control room, and altering the sequence of cards coming out, then I'm applying for a provisional patent on that Monday morning.
I don't want to believe that casinos cheat. I know I'm going to lose in the long run, I just want to have a reasonable chance. But losing $8,000 in a few hours of craps playing $5 pass line and 10x odds (which according to the WOO site gives the house only a .0018% edge) makes me question the fairness of the game.
Quote: chookThanks, mkl.
Finally some substance.
What do you know about roulette?
There was "substance" in all my other posts. You just chose not to see it as such.
I only dealt roulette during my first three months as a casino dealer. I doubt that the house or the dealers cheat at roulette, because it's relatively difficult to do, the house edge is gigantic as it is, and roulette only attracts small ball action, because of the double zero.
Quote: cclub79A question: If it's so pervasive, has there never been a dealer who's acted as a "whistleblower" who could go to the authorities with proof? Having higher ups encourage cheating players is criminal, as is cheating the player. So every dealer would rather break the law to protect their job when they could blow the lid off of something, write a book, and be featured on The Today Show, Larry King, etc?
1. Without proof, as in, ironclad proof that the dealer had been ASKED (told) BY THE HOUSE to cheat a player or players, the dealer would just be dismissed as another "disgruntled former employee". And a dealer who confessed to cheating, but couldn't prove that he had been told/encouraged/pressured to cheat, would be putting his head in the noose for nothing.
2. Dealer jobs can be very lucrative. Whistle-blowing (as in other professions) would doom the dealer to never working again in any casino, and it would carry no tangible reward, possible Larry King appearances notwithstanding.
3. Harrassment/intimidation is very powerful in the casino workplace, especially used against women; until very recently, less than five percent of casino floor management was female. Threatening someone's livelihood can be a very powerful lever. Until quite recently, a person who couldn't work in the casinos would have been unlikely to find a decent job elsewhere in the city.
4. As I've pointed out elsewhere, if the casino makes its displeasure with poor results evident, the dealer may feel under pressure to improve the bottom line in any way he/she can--and the only way to do that is to cheat. So the inducement to cheat may be subtle and unstated, but it's there nonetheless.
5. And if you're curious, I cheated the players, JUST FOR FUN, dozens of times. Sometimes I cheated FOR the players. I was terrible at it, and clumsy, but no one EVER said anything--so I would expect anyone actually competent would be able to cheat well-nigh invisibly.
Quote: mkl6543211. Without proof, as in, ironclad proof that the dealer had been ASKED (told) BY THE HOUSE to cheat a player or players, the dealer would just be dismissed as another "disgruntled former employee". And a dealer who confessed to cheating, but couldn't prove that he had been told/encouraged/pressured to cheat, would be putting his head in the noose for nothing.
Seems to me a sting could be set up rather easily. (If it's as widespread as you say.) Politicians are caught all the time (see the 34 a year ago in NJ), and they wield as much power as the casinos in this state.
Quote:2. Dealer jobs can be very lucrative. Whistle-blowing (as in other professions) would doom the dealer to never working again in any casino, and it would carry no tangible reward, possible Larry King appearances notwithstanding.
Imagine the publicity by HIRING the whistleblower. You'd be advertising your fairness to the world at the precise time that (if they were successful) the industry might have a cloud over its head.
If I play Craps, I'm assuming they can't cheat in any way other than trying to disrupt rhythm, which really only superstitious players believe in. I always thought that was counter-intuitive anyway; it just gives a player an excuse for the loss that was going to eventually come anyway. Now they blame the fact that the house looked at the dice, rather than that their luck just ran out. They are more angry and might play somewhere else in that case. Not good for business, unless you really believe in hot and cold dice.
Quote: cclub79Seems to me a sting could be set up rather easily. (If it's as widespread as you say.) Politicians are caught all the time (see the 34 a year ago in NJ), and they wield as much power as the casinos in this state.
Imagine the publicity by HIRING the whistleblower. You'd be advertising your fairness to the world at the precise time that (if they were successful) the industry might have a cloud over its head..
We're wandering into Hypothetical Land here, but...
Such a "sting" would be done by law enforcement, with the goal of either a) exposing the casino as it induced/pressured the dealers to cheat or b) exposing the dealer as he cheated. The former would be a practical impossibility (how could outside law enforcement accomplish this without the casino's consent or knowledge?), and the latter also highly unlikely, as the casino itself would have much better cheating detection apparatus in place than any that could be brought in from outside by law enforcement.
In any case, you'd have to absolutely prove that the dealer cheating was doing so as a result of dealer-house collusion, and it would be much more likely that the cheating dealer would be cut loose and thrown to the wolves. I suppose an "undercover dealer" could arrange to get hired and infiltrate the organization, and then wait patiently until he is asked/told/coerced/encouraged to cheat, and of course THAT MOMENT would have to be recorded, along with instances of the actual cheating...all this with covert surveillance and recording that was unknown to the casino...
Naah.
You're talking about pulling a "sting" on a business that has its own police force, security/surveillance systems, etc. etc., and operates above and exclusive of the law, to boot. (You're way off the mark about casinos and politicians having equal power: casinos is to politicans as herd of elephants is to blind, old mice dying of AIDS.)
If you play enough in a casino, you are going to see cheating by some of the dealers, but not all of them. Most dealers are just going to work and trying to make a living, and could care less if you win or lose. The good dealers will go out of their way to try to steer you in the right direction to win.
Then you have the dealers that delights in getting players to make bad bets, they get pleasure out of watching players lose!
You also have the dealers that will cheat the players to make money for them self, with an accomplice on the table.
My game is craps, and I have seen it all. Some dealers are dirt bags that have no business in the casino industry.
One thing they will do on the weekends is have the accomplice standing next to a player that is drunk. The drunk will be making bets and the dealer will place one bet for their accomplice. Depending on how drunk the player is, depends on how braising the dealer gets with making bet for the accomplice!
The same dealer will pay his accomplice on bets he did not make, that the drunk did make! Most players will never catch the dealer doing this because they are only looking at their bets when getting paid off!
When you say something to the dealer, they make like it was a mistake! Then you are going to get crap when you are shooting from the other dealers too! Short color-up are always a problem when you have a dealer that is trying to rake chips for their tokes, even when they can see that you know what you are doing some times you will get a short color-up! Isn’t it funny how that green or black chip ended up right next to the dealer’s tokes when you catch them at it, again a late night or weekend thing!
Always do a chip count before you color-up, and count it twice before you color-up!
Then you have the dealers that are new and are afraid of losing their jobs, and yes it does happen they will do anything to stop a player from winning, bad calls seven out, saying they didn’t book a bet that just hit for a big pay-out.
You are starting to see more of this in the smaller casinos when they have break-in dealers working, and a bad suit that does not want their table pay out too high!
I have seen where the dealer booked the bet a player had been making every time they got the dice, and then when the player hit it for big money say they didn’t book the bet.
After ½ hour of arguing the player just gave-up, when the suit would no pay the bet.
When I told the player to call the gaming board he said to forget about it, and walked off the table!
If you live in Vegas you know dealers, and some of them will tell you that if a table is winning the suites will pull them off the table, the other thing is they will tell you if they always are losing they will be looking for a new job!
In Nevada they do not balance the dice or even measure them any more, and yes they use to do it, there are no rules for the dice and I know that someone is going to say there is, but will you please show me them!
In a lot of the states there are rules that the dice have to be balanced and measure before they are put into play. When you play BJ at a Station Casino they bring the cards out that has already been opened, that started about five years ago, and when asked about it, they will tell you that they count the cards in the back room to save time!
Here is the link to the gaming board for NV: http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs.htm
The Bear Growls: http://www.thebeargrowls.com should be checked out too!
I have heard all the arguments as to why a casino would not cheat, and the dealers would turn them in if they were cheating right?
Then think for one moment about the oil spill, and how many workers on that platform knew there was a problem. But never said a word about it, till after the spill!
You see it everyday, just open your eyes and read about it in all the news papers!
Everyday someone is getting caught cheating in some business or government, are we all that gullible?
Here is one more site about bad dice: Craps Advantage Players: http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/
Remember 95% of all dealers are great dealers, and I do have a lot of respect for them and what they have to deal with everyday, but like anything there are some bad ones, and the same goes for suits, and when you put the both of then together you have a problem!
And yes there have been casino that have gotten caught cheating, only to have their hand slapped, and a small fine!
There are bad apples in ever basket, lets not forget that! Keep your eyes open when on the tables for your fellow players, it is sad but it is true!
For all you naysayers, no I do not blame anybody else when I lose. I heard that one before; he is just a bad loser that is why he is saying the casinos would cheat!
Headlock
If you PM me I will find you some of the things we have found about the casinos when they got caught! It will take a few days of digging things back-up but I will get them to you!
One last point, here in NV most of our tax base is from the casinos, what would happen to that tax base if someone proved the casinos were cheating, and everyone knew about it?
You ever see Glengarry Glen Ross?
"I used to be a dealer once... it's a tough racket." *sip*
I'm sure we all like the old, "Let me tell you about the time..." chestnut but it's little more than snips and snails and fantasy without... ummmm... what was it again? Oh yeah, proof.
Yes, I dealt for a time (not the 8 years you put in you old codger) and yes I know that there are a lot of dealers who have questionable morals at best. I also knew a lot of dealers who thought their **** didn't stink who liked to tell stories because it garnered the attention they craved...
Is it possible that dealers cheat players of their own volition? Certainly. Is it likely? Less so. Have you any proof?
