Poor forum etiquette

My better judgement tells me not to write this, but some character flaw (ego?) persuades me otherwise. Like many others I don't like to be told I'm wrong or stupid.

This was the first forum I ever participated in, and perhaps my inexperience led to my lack of success.

I have been vilified for hedging a Fire Bet, accused of being racist when I expressed my opinion that private business has a right to refuse service to anyone, and most recently accused of being stupid for offering my opinion that casinos most likely cheat.

I am a college graduate, self-employed. I work 40 hours a week or more. I am certainly not as intelligent as the frequent posters on this forum, but I consider myself a successful middle class American. I fear as such I may be among a very small minority participating in this forum.

When I first joined the forum, I enjoyed reading others gambling experiences, particularly craps, which is my game of choice. Recently, however, I have become increasingly dismayed by the volume of non-gambling posts by some of the frequent posters, and their seemingly uncontrollable desire to offer their expert opinion on every subject.

I know this will piss several participants off, but please know I have no intention of doing so. I also know, not being a wordsmith, my meaning will be misinterpreted. Those posters who feel the need, or must have the last word, please point out my ignorance while showing off your own genius.

If there are other infrequent posters who, like I, have felt, or fear, verbal bullying by the more intelligent, frequent posters, please post your thoughts in this thread.

Quote: Headlock

and most recently accused of being stupid for offering my opinion that casinos most likely cheat.

You are changing the story so you can play victim ...

You were never accused of being stupid for offering an opinion that "casinos most likely cheat." You were exposed for stating that casinos cheat at Slots, Keno or Video poker by rigging the RNG to pay differently based on the performance of the player at that device, without the least bit of evidence.

Arguing from the specific to the general is a logical flaw. You made a specific statement and failed to back it up and were called out for that. Your defense was that "everybody knows casinos cheat," and that somehow you were being made to feel stupid for saying that. It's not hard to say that. What's hard is to give specific evidence for the specific allegations that have been made.

The easiest way to get along in this world is to not make broad sweeping attacks, and to be able to back up specific attacks.

Too bad you have been ravaged by this forum. There may be something for you to learn about yourself and how to get along. Better might be for you to learn the lesson of not attacking those things you know nothing about and to keep participating. It is a life lesson, not a forum lesson.

--Dorothy

Quote: Headlock

I have been vilified for hedging a Fire Bet, accused of being racist when I expressed my opinion that private business has a right to refuse service to anyone, and most recently accused of being stupid for offering my opinion that casinos most likely cheat.

Accusations of racism based on people's thoughts have become so pervasive that they have been neutered in my and many other peoples' estimation. Let's skip that. I don't think casinos cheat simply because of risk/reward, but hey, if you take a different opinion, you are not stupid. But I really wanted to discuss your first example. The thread on hedging the Fire Bet is the perfect example of why this board is such a great place. We started with an idea and literally did the math and amended it as we went to come up with a great answer to the question, while discussing all sorts of experiences along the way. I recall a couple of posters attempting to slam the door on the post by just saying "hedging is not smart...it's against the Wizard's Rules. End of story." I am thankful that they are not moderators, because what followed the "End of story" was both mentally stimulating and challenging.

If I wanted to, I could make a stupid one line comment after every reply in every thread and I'd be in the Top 5 or whatever it is by 9o clock tonight. (Sometimes I feel that my replies are dumb and I erase them before posting. Some people choose not to engage that filter.) Posting a lot does not make one an authority or "more intelligent", even though some people like to insist that "size matters". You shouldn't feel bullied. You have as much right to be here and share your opinions as everyone else (except for JB and the Wizard, they are afforded additional rights). You should show everyone the same respect that you request, however. The non-gambling stuff doesn't really bother me, because I find it fascinating to see what other interests P1 gamblers have. Lots of times people who are drawn to one thing are also drawn to other interests that have nothing to do with the original connecting interest. But that's just me.

I know this is off-topic, but hedging on the fire bet is always a good idea, right? Considering the don't pass has better odds than the pass, and taking full odds on the don't pass only decreases the house edge, once you've made the fire bet, hedging actually is the right move.

Or am I missing something?

Sorry about ignoring the "Poor Forum Etiquette" post, it just sounded like someone crying over nothing.

Quote: DorothyGale

You are changing the story so you can play victim ...

You were never accused of being stupid for offering an opinion that "casinos most likely cheat." You were exposed for stating that casinos cheat at Slots, Keno or Video poker by rigging the RNG to pay differently based on the performance of the player at that device, without the least bit of evidence.

Arguing from the specific to the general is a logical flaw. You made a specific statement and failed to back it up and were called out for that. Your defense was that "everybody knows casinos cheat," and that somehow you were being made to feel stupid for saying that. It's not hard to say that. What's hard is to give specific evidence for the specific allegations that have been made.

The easiest way to get along in this world is to not make broad sweeping attacks, and to be able to back up specific attacks.

Too bad you have been ravaged by this forum. There may be something for you to learn about yourself and how to get along. Better might be for you to learn the lesson of not attacking those things you know nothing about and to keep participating. It is a life lesson, not a forum lesson.

--Dorothy

Again I must blame my inexperience with forum posting. I think my mistake was posting my comment in the Keno thread.

But I have reviewed my posts and I don't see where I stated that casinos cheat specifically at slots and video poker. I also did not say "everybody knows casinos cheat". What I meant, and this will probably be misconstrued as well, is that given that cheating occurs in most endeavors, it is likely that cheating by casinos exists as well.

Quote: Headlock

Again I must blame my inexperience with forum posting. I think my mistake was posting my comment in the Keno thread.

So let's just stick with your comment:

Quote:

it is likely that cheating by casinos exists as well.

The first most common cheating that goes on is by dealers cheating the rack by stealing or shorting or working with an accomplice. I was privy to a recent case first hand where a team of dealers marked cards in a shoe and had accomplices come in and beat the blackjack something fierce. They all used the money together to buy methamphetamine. Eventually they got caught, lost their jobs, a few found their way to jail. That's cheating.

The second most common cheating is by players who mark/bend/past post/spook/ etc. Things like card counting or hole card reading are not cheating. We're talking bona fide cheating here by players. They do it in the table games pit, against slots, against roulette and craps and every other game.

So, cheating in a casino exists.

Now, what does not happen is that two or more executive type higher ups get together and say "how should we rig the games to beat the players out of more money that the house edge allows?" And they do that for the benefit of the "casino," not for themselves. That doesn't happen.

Caveats added in edit -- I recall somewhere a story of an extra 5 being added to a deck, or a few 10s removed ...and some believe that preferential shuffling is a form of cheating ... so maybe it does happen in blackjack ... and maybe a card sharp has been brought in to deal to a player someone doesn't like now and then ... Shorting decks can lead to losing a license, that is usually done by a boss whose shift isn't holding well to increase his hold and better his chances of keeping a job ... felony ... 10 years in prison ... yeah, that's worth it ... Preferential shuffling is a big issue; The state of Nevada has ruled that it is not cheating.

--Dorothy

Quote: Headlock

When I first joined the forum, I enjoyed reading others gambling experiences, particularly craps, which is my game of choice. Recently, however, I have become increasingly dismayed by the volume of non-gambling posts by some of the frequent posters, and their seemingly uncontrollable desire to offer their expert opinion on every subject.

Keep this in mind:

1) The best forums (yes, I know that's horrible Latin) tend to become small communities. A good forum won't restrict postings to one topic only, even if it is dedicated to it. This is a Vegas forum, heavy on gambling, with non-Vegas and non-gambling posting areas.

2) The regulars here are a rather heterogeneous group. There are long-time gamblers and beginners, too. Some of us gamble sporadically, others more often, others perhaps all year long. In any case all of us have interests aside from gambling, therefore we make use of the appropriate areas to talk about it.

3) If you don't want to read non-gambling threads, then don't.

The only one of those threads I was involved with was the one about alleged cheating in slots, video keno specifically. If you want to make the accusation that the machines are not fair, fine, but it should be backed up by some evidence. The burden of proof is on the accuser. I think you were rightly called out for a weak argument.

Regarding the overall tone of the forum, compared to other forums I'm familiar with, this one is rather mild. I made the same mistake at the first forum I became active with some 13 years ago, saying anything that came to mind, as I might after a few beers. I got quite a few verbal thrashings because of it. My advice, based on my own mistakes, to any newcomer to the world of forums, is to think more, and write less. Even I violate that bit of advice when I'm hurried, I must confess.

I missed the Fire Bet thread due to being out of town the last four days. However, I allow for exceptions to hedging if life changing amounts of money are at stake.

Consider yourself welcomed by me to stick around. You might consider lurking more for a while to get a better feel of the place.

Quote: Nareed

2) The regulars here are a rather heterogeneous group. There are long-time gamblers and beginners, too. Some of us gamble sporadically, others more often, others perhaps all year long. In any case all of us have interests aside from gambling, therefore we make use of the appropriate areas to talk about it.

Some of us don't gamble at all. Some work for the gaming industry. Some are advantage players. Some do a little of all of these.

--Dorothy

Quote: DorothyGale

Some of us don't gamble at all. Some work for the gaming industry. Some are advantage players. Some do a little of all of these.

--Dorothy

I sit corrected (I don't often stand by the keyboard, you see...)

I think that anyone who would make the assertion that casinos do NOT cheat is either foolish, naive, delusional, or some combination of all three. So given that they DO cheat, the question is, how often, and under what circumstances?

First of all, let's get rid of, once and for all, the hidebound notion that some kind of horrible, drastic punishment awaits a casino that is discovered to be cheating. NO CASINO IN THE HISTORY OF NEVADA has EVER been prosecuted, sanctioned, shut down, shut up, or subjected to ANY civil or criminal penalties for cheating. The Nevada Gaming Control Board is a casino lapdog, a "regulatory" agency that is like a fox in charge of the chicken coop. They regularly receive hundreds of reports of casino cheating from players, and almost never even act on them. Therefore, one of two things is true (you guess which):

1. The casinos never cheat.
2. The casinos cheat to some degree, but are never caught/punished for it.

(In the recent case of the Venetian rigging contest drawings so that a high-roller would win, the V was indeed slapped with a miniscule fine. However, they appealed that fine, and never paid it.)

So given that a casino CAN cheat, the question is, WILL it? Cheating will undoubtedly increase the casinos' bottom line, and there are no effective penalties (and in the vast majority of cases, it is undetectable), so the only thing preventing casino cheating is the consciences of the casino bosses--who all KNOW cheating is WRONG (gag, ack, barf).

Thanks for the kind words Wizard. I still protest that I did not make any accusation regarding specific cheating by casinos. I simply offered my opinion that since we know cheating occurs in almost every human endeavor, there is almost certainly cheating by casinos. I do not feel the need to provide evidence to support my opinion. Take it or leave it.

The Fire Bet thread is now several week old. Basically the question was (if the gambler chose to hedge the Fire Bet), what would be the appropriate amount to lay on the 5th and 6th points. We, the posters who participated in that thread, determined the three amounts for the 5th point, ignoring the 6th number. We recognized that the three formulas should be modified for the 6th number but failed to calculate those amounts.

Quote: mkl654321

I think that anyone who would make the assertion that casinos do NOT cheat is either foolish, naive, delusional, or some combination of all three. So given that they DO cheat, the question is, how often, and under what circumstances?

First of all, let's get rid of, once and for all, the hidebound notion that some kind of horrible, drastic punishment awaits a casino that is discovered to be cheating. NO CASINO IN THE HISTORY OF NEVADA has EVER been prosecuted, sanctioned, shut down, shut up, or subjected to ANY civil or criminal penalties for cheating. The Nevada Gaming Control Board is a casino lapdog, a "regulatory" agency that is like a fox in charge of the chicken coop. They regularly receive hundreds of reports of casino cheating from players, and almost never even act on them. Therefore, one of two things is true (you guess which):

1. The casinos never cheat.
2. The casinos cheat to some degree, but are never caught/punished for it.

(In the recent case of the Venetian rigging contest drawings so that a high-roller would win, the V was indeed slapped with a miniscule fine. However, they appealed that fine, and never paid it.)

So given that a casino CAN cheat, the question is, WILL it? Cheating will undoubtedly increase the casinos' bottom line, and there are no effective penalties (and in the vast majority of cases, it is undetectable), so the only thing preventing casino cheating is the consciences of the casino bosses--who all KNOW cheating is WRONG (gag, ack, barf).

You've stated quite eloquently what I attempted to say in only a few words. Now watch out!

Quote: Nareed

I sit corrected (I don't often stand by the keyboard, you see...)

Little known fact: ... it gets pretty exhausting with these dumb, scared and emotionless f***ing relatives and farm hands around me every day, I wish I could get away from them ... instead I just take it out on posters here with this second persona that is so unlike my actual true self -- Kansas farm girl in angst-ridden hell ...

The year is 1939. I live in Kansas. Holy crap.

--Dorothy

Quote: DorothyGale

Some of us don't gamble at all. Some work for the gaming industry. Some are advantage players. Some do a little of all of these.

--Dorothy

You've made some serious accusations here without offering a shred of proof.

Quote: Headlock

You've made some serious accusations here without offering a shred of proof.

Hmmm... one could argue humor or sarcasm ... I'll view it as a weak and feeble attempt at counter attack ...

A) Wizard works for the gaming industry.

B) Wizard is an advantage player.

C) I never gamble so I'll stand in on that one.

A universally quantified statement is "For every X, Y" as in "Everyone knows casinos cheat." You made a universally quantified statement. That must be proven over every X, and is tough to prove, as you've no doubt experienced. For example, "every horse has four legs" requires examining every horse.

An existentially quantified statement is "There are X" as in "There are people here who are advantage players." To prove an existential, one merely has to provide a single example, as I've done above. For example, "there is a horse with 3 legs" requires displaying a single horse with 3 legs.

I don't know why you would counter attack without actually planning it out and doing your research to get your one sentence to be logically accurate; it just comes off so weak. I'm sorry for you now.

--Dorothy

Quote: Headlock

I have been vilified for hedging a Fire Bet, accused of being racist when I expressed my opinion that private business has a right to refuse service to anyone, and most recently accused of being stupid for offering my opinion that casinos most likely cheat.

Unless I'm mistaken, I was the first to call what you were proposing "Hedging". However, I was not attempting to vilify you for it. On the contrary, if anything, I wanted to engage the conversation. I like to learn too.

I believe, later on in that thread, I came around to thinking that you might be on to something. But I also lost interest in the thread because the math was getting too confusing for my little brain.

Quote: Headlock

I have become increasingly dismayed by the volume of non-gambling posts by some of the frequent posters, and their seemingly uncontrollable desire to offer their expert opinion on every subject.

Since I am the number one poster of record, (The Wizard and JB might have more posts, but they are excluded from the top poster list), I have to be concerned that you're talking about me. If so, I'd like to know what you're referring to.

Yeah, I tend to live on chat boards. My day job is as an IT manager at a business that doesn't need an IT manager - and they know it, but keep me anyway. As a result I have a lot of free time. I spend it on various chat boards.

So if it's me, please tell me.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

My day job is as an IT manager at a business that doesn't need an IT manager - and they know it

We have cookies over here ...

--Dorothy

Quote: DorothyGale

Some do a little of all of these.

--Dorothy

How do you prove this, you pompous ass?

I still cannot find a post by me or anyone else stating "everyone knows casinos cheat"

Did your caretakers forget to give you your meds today? You are really a dick...or something.

My advice is to grow a thick skin. Whether it be this forum or another forum, you are, by default, opening yourself up to attack of any kind every time you post something, even in response to somebody else's comments. If you're going to let anybody's comments hurt your feelings or make you feel bad, then you probably should not be online in the first place. The online forums are publicly available to anybody, and so anything can, and probably will, be said. The main thing is to be able to let things slide, take things for what they are, defend your comments and/or actions, and be prepared to have an open mind to what others say.

I participate in many forums, and have been called many names over the years. If I really let any of that bother me, I would have committed suicide years ago. Instead, I just spend my money in Las Vegas.....

You're right konceptum. My first instinct to just quit the forum was the correct choice, and I failed.

Quote: mkl654321

So given that a casino CAN cheat, the question is, WILL it? Cheating will undoubtedly increase the casinos' bottom line, and there are no effective penalties (and in the vast majority of cases, it is undetectable), so the only thing preventing casino cheating is the consciences of the casino bosses--who all KNOW cheating is WRONG (gag, ack, barf).

I don't see the reason for the casino to cheat. At least not for the house. I get that dealers will cheat for themselves. I can accept that managers might specifically screw over a-hole players (kind of hope that actually happens...). But, why on earth would the casino cheat just to pad the house's bottom line? They can just change the rules! 6-3 Pairs plus paytables on 3 card, 6:5 21 games, 8-5 JOB games...I don't think the house has an incentive to cheat as long as they can just alter the rules and still find people who will play their games.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Since I am the number one poster of record, (The Wizard and JB might have more posts, but they are excluded from the top poster list)....

If I read the headings correctly, you currently have a 250+ post lead on the Wizard. What's the prize? :-)

Quote: Doc

If I read the headings correctly, you currently have a 250+ post lead on the Wizard. What's the prize? :-)

RDW4POTUS'S 1-800-333-HOPE card?

Quote: DorothyGale

Hmmm... one could argue humor or sarcasm ... I'll view it as a weak and feeble attempt at counter attack ...

A) Wizard works for the gaming industry.

B) Wizard is an advantage player.

C) I never gamble so I'll stand in on that one.

A universally quantified statement is "For every X, Y" as in "Everyone knows casinos cheat." You made a universally quantified statement. That must be proven over every X, and is tough to prove, as you've no doubt experienced. For example, "every horse has four legs" requires examining every horse.

An existentially quantified statement is "There are X" as in "There are people here who are advantage players." To prove an existential, one merely has to provide a single example, as I've done above. For example, "there is a horse with 3 legs" requires displaying a single horse with 3 legs.

I don't know why you would counter attack without actually planning it out and doing your research to get your one sentence to be logically accurate; it just comes off so weak. I'm sorry for you now.

--Dorothy

Wow, Dorothy. Formal logic training? Are you a lawyer?

Quote: rdw4potus

Wow, Dorothy. Formal logic training? Are you a lawyer?

Yes, formal logic training ... just a bit ... arrrrr ... yeah, just a bit ...

I am not a lawyer, I'm a Kansas farm girl ...

--Dorothy

Quote: DorothyGale

The year is 1939. I live in Kansas. Holy crap.

--Dorothy

I thought "OZ-like" could also refer to Australia.

Of course the "Gale" part is very conclusive, not to mention this is the Wizard's forum and all.

Quote: Nareed

I thought "OZ-like" could also refer to Australia.

Of course the "Gale" part is very conclusive, not to mention this is the Wizard's forum and all.

Very few know that "Gale" is my last name ... cool corn husks ... it's only mentioned once in the movie they made of those traumatic few days of my otherwise existentially meaningless life. I've often thought of those tragic fictional characters Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, at least they were immortalized by those 157 consecutive coin flips that came up heads ...

OK ... ok ... this one is good ... don't look it up ... trivia question, in Casablanca, what was "Rick's" last name?

--Dorothy

Quote: DorothyGale

OK ... ok ... this one is good ... don't look it up ... trivia question, in Casablanca, what was "Rick's" last name?

--Dorothy

Blaine. Though I may have the spelling incorrect. My fuzzy memory is that the Peter Lorre character makes a reference to "Mr. Blaine".

Headlock,

You have to have a thick skin to survive on these forums. I can leave it as simple as that, and to not be as responsive to people who are mean to you or perceive as such.

Regarding the hedging in craps, I originated a Wizard question for that a few years back and got an answer. I always do hedge the fifth point in craps, and have not made a calculation for the sixth.

My wife and I always talk about the casino cheating, by doing something with the auto-shuffler, by taking cards out of a deck, and by not giving out jackpots. But my feeling is that it is all a bunch of bunk. I've witnessed $110,000 jackpots be paid out at Caribbean Stud. The mega-millions jackpot is inevitably won. Dice are not skewed in craps, and roulette wheels are generally unbiased. Cards have 52 cards and are dealt randomly. Every game in the casino is in the casino's advantage. They know it, and we know it, and that is how Vegas is built. Really, it's dumb players and greed that have built up Vegas -- the fact that Vegas has an infinite bankroll and the player doesn't.

I must say that I haven't liked the flavor of the forums lately because of name calling and seeing the same posts and questions being posted over and over again. But I suspect it's just growing pains.

Quote: Headlock

How do you prove this, you pompous ass?

I still cannot find a post by me or anyone else stating "everyone knows casinos cheat"

Did your caretakers forget to give you your meds today? You are really a dick...or something.

Headlock - I'm an casual poster here, but I've got to tell you that starting a flame war isn't a smart move for a novice to any forum. The best that will happen is that you'll alienate anyone who might have been considering your side of the argument. You won't convince anyone with a contrary position that you are right by insulting them - you'll probably put them on the defensive with your attacks. You might even get banned from the forum!

Do you really think that DorothyGale's feelings were hurt by your post? I'd bet my next paycheck that they weren't. Try posting facts or opinions instead of using name calling and insulting others.

Quote: DorothyGale

Very few know that "Gale" is my last name ... cool corn husks ... it's only mentioned once in the movie they made of those traumatic few days of my otherwise existentially meaningless life.

I'm way in over my head, I think.

Quote: Headlock

You're right konceptum. My first instinct to just quit the forum was the correct choice, and I failed.

Well, it usually takes folks time to figure this out. But seeing as how you are new to forums and all, I'll clue you in.


In which Marcus gets the Inside Scoop


If you want to play, do it because you like it. If you want to quit, do it because it doesn't fill your needs anymore. But DON'T WHINE ABOUT IT.

Quote: Nareed

I'm way in over my head, I think.

Yes, I hear that spinning in a tornado can really make one dizzy.

This thread is very unproductive.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"What is hateful to you, do not unto your neighbor ... the rest is commentary." -Hillel the Elder (redacted by J.C.).

Quote: Mosca

Well, it usually takes folks time to figure this out. But seeing as how you are new to forums and all, I'll clue you in.


In which Marcus gets the Inside Scoop


If you want to play, do it because you like it. If you want to quit, do it because it doesn't fill your needs anymore. But DON'T WHINE ABOUT IT.

Thanks Mosca. I did need to see that.

We all do, and often. Myself included. I reference it frequently, in fact.

Quote: Headlock

You're right konceptum. My first instinct to just quit the forum was the correct choice, and I failed.

You missed the point of my post. The point isn't to quit just because somebody said something you didn't like. The point is to not let it bother you.

I think, too many times, we are used to talking to our friends, family, or co-workers, all of whom are more than willing to let us ramble on whatever topic we feel like, and very rarely, either because they agree with us, or because they are too nice about it, do they ever actively disagree with us and call us stupid for thinking what we think.

Online forums are very different from this. For the first part, you are allowing your ideas and comments to be read by a much wider assortment of people and personalities. The odds are, you're going to find someone who disagrees with you. (I don't know the exact odds, but I'll leave the Wizard to figure it out.)

If you think you have the betting system of the century, tell your friends. They will tell you what a great idea it is, and how you should go to Las Vegas and practice the system ASAP. On the other hand, if you want honest feedback on the system, then you should post the system on here, and you WILL get a bunch of criticism on your system. And that is going to be true of anything you post on here. We will give you our honest opinions, because we think that is what you want to hear. If you just want to hear platitudes, keep the comments for your friends and family.

Quote: teddys

This thread is very unproductive.

I disagree. Well, maybe I agree that the thread doesn't produce anything. But I do think that the thoughts expressed here can be helpful to certain people. For one, it might help those people who also sometimes feel like they are being ridiculed or yelled at on the forum to understand that they are not the only ones. For two, it would help all those people to realize that they really can't take any of this stuff too seriously and that they need to keep a thick skin.

Thanks konceptum. I did not misunderstand your advice. I felt I was unjustly ridiculed and the fight or flee instinct kicked in. If I was the man I wish I was I would have ignored the jibes. Way too many I's in that sentence, aren't there?

Quote: Headlock

Quote: Mosca

Well, it usually takes folks time to figure this out. But seeing as how you are new to forums and all, I'll clue you in.
If you want to play, do it because you like it. If you want to quit, do it because it doesn't fill your needs anymore. But DON'T WHINE ABOUT IT.

Thanks Mosca. I did need to see that.

Well, the assertion made in the comic is idiotic, simplistic, and untrue; other than that, I have no quarrel with it. The fact of the matter is that "you have to expect this sort of thing on the internet" is used as an excuse for people (many, many people) to abandon the simple, common courtesies of human discourse. In face-to-face conversation, the reasons that you don't call someone an "ignorant, flaming douchebag" when they express an opinion contrary to yours are a) the social stigma that arises from responding to people in this fashion, b) the not inconsiderable possibility that the target of your attack may break your nose, and c) the likelihood of antagonizing that person and ruining your relationship with him. Now, on the internet, the first two conditions are moot, and the third largely irrelevant. Thus, we are left with what should be the overriding consideration, in ANY interactive situation: should I, or should I not, act like an asshole? Unfortunately, most of today's generation of socially stunted internet kiddies wouldn't even understand that question.

Quote: mkl654321

Thus, we are left with what should be the overriding consideration, in ANY interactive situation: should I, or should I not, act like an asshole? Unfortunately, most of today's generation of socially stunted internet kiddies wouldn't even understand that question.

Wow.

double post (wish I could delete it - JB!)

Quote: mkl654321

should I, or should I not, act like an asshole? Unfortunately, most of today's generation of socially stunted internet kiddies wouldn't even understand that question.

Even more unfortunately, you seem to have chosen the former position.

Quote: mkl654321

The fact of the matter is that "you have to expect this sort of thing on the internet" is used as an excuse for people (many, many people) to abandon the simple, common courtesies of human discourse.

Completely 100% agree. But the fact of the matter is that people do throw out the common courtesies when conversing on the internet. And we just can't expect for such a large population to suddenly convert back to proper behavior. Thus, I stand by my original statement that it's much better for us to get used to it, don't let it bother us, and move on with our lives.

As a similarity, I'm always amazed at how horrible a public men's room looks. I believe that 99% of these guys would NOT be as disgusting in their own private bathrooms at home. So why do they insist on peeing on the toilet seat, not flushing the toilet, throwing paper towels or toilet paper on the floor, etc, etc? Is it simply because they are not responsible for cleaning it up themselves, and thus they figure it's ok? Or is it because of the anonymity and the fact that they will not be held accountable? I've noticed that in bathrooms with a bathroom attendant (matron?), guys are a little better at keeping things clean. Is it because if they throw that paper towel on the floor, someone is there to see them do it and thus the anonymity is gone, so they don't do it?

The anonymity that the internet provides as created all kinds of social misbehaviors that have become commonplace. My only argument is that the ability to ignore those misbehaviors and focus on the good should also become commonplace.

WRT public men's rooms, I just assume that the jerks that behave that poorly in public really do act that way in their own houses.

Quote: konceptum

As a similarity, I'm always amazed at how horrible a public men's room looks.

You should see a public women's restroom. As part of my summer job while attending school, we maintained a recreation area. Trust me, at least here, the women's room was always much worse than the men's.

Quote: timberjim

You should see a public women's restroom. As part of my summer job while attending school, we maintained a recreation area. Trust me, at least here, the women's room was always much worse than the men's.

In college I worked as a supervisor for a janitorial company that cleaned office buildings. When someone called in sick, it was usually me who ended up doing the cleaning. In my opinion, the mens' restrooms were dirtier, but not significantly. I suspect it is because at the office everyone is more likely on better bathroom behavior than in a totally public one. Also, the womens' restrooms were often better furnished, with nice furniture and magazines.

Quote: mkl654321

Well, the assertion made in the comic is idiotic, simplistic, and untrue; other than that, I have no quarrel with it.

You missed the point entirely. I would explain it to you, but I think you would miss it again anyhow.

Quote: rdw4potus

I don't see the reason for the casino to cheat. At least not for the house. I get that dealers will cheat for themselves. I can accept that managers might specifically screw over a-hole players (kind of hope that actually happens...). But, why on earth would the casino cheat just to pad the house's bottom line? They can just change the rules!

By the same logic, why would the dealers cheat if they could just change jobs and become lawyers? :)

A statement "casinos never cheat" is just as universally quantified a statement as it's opposite. Frankly, I find this point of view a bit naive and a bit of wishful thinking - it is understandably a lot more comfortable thought that one's losses are attributable to universal laws of nature (such as statistics) than falling victim to common fraud.

I don't buy an "argument" that casinos have no reason to cheat, because they have house edge. The same can be said about any profitable business - why would anyone cheat if they can make money without cheating? Yet, we know, that banks, corporations, governments, phone companies, stock brokers, medical offices all cheat (for the formal logic fans, by "all" I mean that "there are entities that cheat in all of the above categories", not that all doctors cheat :)). I don't see any reason to believe that casinos would somehow be exempt from that rule, and just happen to be universally honest and ethical.

I don't know very much about insides of gambling industry, and from what I see as an outsider in the land-based casinos, it does seem that cheating there is a feat hard to pull, and dangerous. But I would have to say the same about Enron's SEC filings and Maydoff's accounting books, so this is hardly a compelling argument for me. Common sense and life experience on the other hand tell me, that in any situation where cheating is technically possible, no matter how hard, someone will cheat. Once again, I am yet to see a convincing argument to exempt specifically casinos from that observation.

I do know a lot about software industry though, and for that reason I can't bring myself to believe that most online casinos are honest. All the talk about regulations and software audits makes me want to laugh. A person making such claims either has an agenda or simply has never seen the insides of a commercial software system. Playing online, your only hope is the honesty of the particular casino owner (which is, in most cases, an unknown, and, because of my life experience, I just have to assume the worst).

About ten years ago, there were many online casinos in the .ru zone, offering what they called a "randomness guarantee" to make it easier for people to believe they were honest. Basically, before you start playing, they would let you download an encrypted file, that contained all the outcomes for that session (say, a sequence of cards in a blackjack shoe), and after the session was completed, they would give you the password to decrypt the file and make sure that the outcomes of the game were not based on your actions during the session (they could not make you bust every time you decide to hit, because they would not know when you would). On the surface that sounded pretty good and solid, but in reality, obviously, did not help very much - all they needed to do to up their advantage was to put a little fewer 10s and aces into the outcome file that there ought to be. After a while, a few websites appeared that offered people to upload their decrypted outcome files to do the frequency analysis. To my knowledge, the actual analysis was never performed, because they never collected enough data - shortly after those site appeared, the offers of this "randomness guarantee" started to disappear, and are now a very rare find. Makes one wonder if there is any kind of an underlying reason for this coincidence, doesn't it?

P.S.: Dorothy: the "I never gamble" statement seems a bit too universally quantified next to your thread about not getting a pair after a long online session :)

Quote: rdw4potus

Even more unfortunately, you seem to have chosen the former position.

And confirming my point, you have chosen to call me an asshole, albeit in a circumlocutory way.