Having to tip dealers is ridiculous

Quote: konceptum

My only issue with this is that, in most cases, the person receiving the tip doesn't actually know WHY they are receiving a tip of less than the normal amount. For all they know, this is what you would normally tip.

That's always a possibility in places you don't go to often, or places you won't ever likley visit more than once. But anywhere you do frequent, they'll eventually get the idea.

Here's the way it should work:

For instance in a restaurant, I get a bill of $25 for my meal. I write in from 0-20% and the freakin' managment covers that payment to the employee.

The employee is still motivated to give good service working for up to 20% extras on each bill. Even if the employee has a lot of friends and family eating there, he's still generating a sale each time. If I really want to give more than that, I can add my own money.

The employer also gets actual feedback from each sale. He can see who is busting their ass.

edit - there would be a place indicate tip percentages, but obviously you pay the base bill, if that was not clear

Quote: 4andaKicker

Wow! Brainwashing really does work. "Tantamount to stealing" huh? I don't think you understand that there is absolutely no such thing as entitlement in the world of tipping. I'll be damned if I'm going to tip dealers who complain openly about having to do their jobs, about having to deal a minimum rate table, about how their customers don't know how to play, etc., etc. I've experienced all those things. I even had a dealer tear a card so he could stop dealing a $5 BJ table in the wee hours of the morning since he knew they would have no replacement cards at that hour!! Dealers like that get nothing from me, ever. I've had dealers who made me laugh so hard I had tears coming down, and tipped them generously even though I was getting a bad beat at the time. Tipping is optional, period. If a dealer makes my experience more entertaining, or they are especially helpful, I'm happy to tip them. But I will never ever be guilted into tipping just because they "graced me with their presence".

If the dealer is a dick, sure, don't tip. But tipping under ordinary circumstances is not optional - sure, there won't be legal consequences to it, but dealers, servers, waiters, bartenders - everything is set up under the assumption that they'll be tipped, so if you don't tip them without a damn good reason, that is theft. It doesn't matter that you don't think it should be that way, it is. The economy is ultimately built on abstractions, and this is obligation of private property is really no different from any other, except that it's not backed up by force. To only fulfill those social obligations that are backed up by force is almost the definition of psychopathy.

Quote: 24Bingo

If the dealer is a dick, sure, don't tip. But tipping under ordinary circumstances is not optional - sure, there won't be legal consequences to it, but dealers, servers, waiters, bartenders - everything is set up under the assumption that they'll be tipped, so if you don't tip them without a damn good reason, that is theft. It doesn't matter that you don't think it should be that way, it is. The economy is ultimately built on abstractions, and this is obligation of private property is really no different from any other, except that it's not backed up by force. To only fulfill those social obligations that are backed up by force is almost the definition of psychopathy.

I'm sorry but I consider that view to be delusional. If tipping was NOT optional then it would be illegal to not give a tip, and then of course the nanny state would have to tell us what percent the tipping would have to be. The fact is: whether YOU like it or not, it IS optional, and therefore because it is not legally mandated, your argument has no leg to stand on. You say this is built on certain assumptions. Yes I agree. One of my assumptions is that if you want to be rude, obnoxious, or fail to do your job properly, you better think about another line of work. You aren't favoring a fair model of exchange of service for reward, but rather an entitlement based system that really should just be called "welfare". How is that system working out where you pay people to do nothing?

You gripe about the "nanny state," and yet you don't feel obligated to do anything you won't be hunted down and shot for failing to do? You realize it's exactly that attitude that underlies the "nanny state," right? You're not paying them for nothing; you're paying them for providing you with a service. It's true they're already paid, but that's only a fraction of the pay that's generally understood to be due them for a reasonable job. Just because you're socially free to withhold it under special circumstances, and legally free under all, doesn't mean that the obligation isn't normally there.

Quote: 24Bingo

But tipping under ordinary circumstances is not optional - sure, there won't be legal consequences to it, but dealers, servers, waiters, bartenders - everything is set up under the assumption that they'll be tipped, so if you don't tip them without a damn good reason, that is theft.

It's always optional. But not tipping without cause is 1) socially unacceptable and 2) extremely unwise. There's an old saw about not p*** off the epople who handle your food and your money.

Morally spekaing, it is a kind of theft, because you're not paying for services received.

deleted

Quote: 24Bingo

If the dealer is a dick, sure, don't tip. But tipping under ordinary circumstances is not optional - sure, there won't be legal consequences to it, but dealers, servers, waiters, bartenders - everything is set up under the assumption that they'll be tipped, so if you don't tip them without a damn good reason, that is theft. It doesn't matter that you don't think it should be that way, it is. The economy is ultimately built on abstractions, and this is obligation of private property is really no different from any other, except that it's not backed up by force. To only fulfill those social obligations that are backed up by force is almost the definition of psychopathy.

I'm a good tipper, but I think you're over-reaching a bit on this one, with all due respect. If one is a dealer, waiter or other position whereby the compensation package is inclusive to the assumption of tips, then one has entered into a labor agreement by which one acknowledges that NOT being tipped (or not having any customers that day to begin with) is a possibility, and in such event, that person is only to receive x/hour, which is typically less than minimum wage.

In other words, the employee is essentially making a bet (because it is an unknown) that he/she will make more $$$/hour as a result of being tipped than he/she would make performing a menial hourly job with a better hourly base pay. As with any bet, even with a positive expectation, (your tips + hourly exceeding the hourly on a different job) you might occasionally lose money in the short run.

Anybody who refuses to tip?

Generally just a cheapskate.

And I am trying to be polite.

I don't mind being frugal. And *I* make the choice where to spend my money, just like you do.

But if you kept coming into my restaurant every day, and didn't tip? I'd give you the bestest service ever and spit on your sandwich.

So, either you are so poor you can't afford to tip, in which case, may your fortunes change soon, or you don't EVER go back to the same place twice.

And for that, everyone in server nation thanks you.

SFB

Quote: 24Bingo

But tipping under ordinary circumstances is not optional - sure, there won't be legal consequences to it, but dealers, servers, waiters, bartenders - everything is set up under the assumption that they'll be tipped, so if you don't tip them without a damn good reason, that is theft.

No, it's not.
A tip is exactly that - a gift.
In the case of US, a customary gift.

Not tipping without a reason is a violation of etiquette, not property rights. It's no more stealing that coming to a BYOB party without actually bringing anything is. Inappropriate, but that's it.