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SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:25:43 PM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

If you don't tip don't play. It is just an industry standard that tokes are part of the dealers earnings.



Nick- you know me, I tip a few dollars and hour, it just feels right. But I have some friends, that when losing, just don't tip. But when winning, tip substantially more than I do. So is it wrong for my friend to sit down at a pai gow table, play for 4 hours losing $400, and not tip at all? His next 'session' if he wins that $400, he will likely have tipped $50 along the way while winning.
Some people only like to tip while winning..... do you think that is wrong?
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:30:09 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Nick- you know me, I tip a few dollars and hour, it just feels right. But I have some friends, that when losing, just don't tip. But when winning, tip substantially more than I do. So is it wrong for my friend to sit down at a pai gow table, play for 4 hours losing $400, and not tip at all? His next 'session' if he wins that $400, he will likely have tipped $50 along the way while winning.
Some people only like to tip while winning..... do you think that is wrong?


Scott, I'll chime in: nothing wrong with not tipping at all on a losing session, if otherwise respectful, no problem at all. I'll toss in my last nickel of a losing session if the dealer was fine to be with.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
aceofspades
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:34:37 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

A look of disdain.......




Do you worry about players reporting your "looks" to management?
NicksGamingStuff
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:34:54 PM permalink
One thing I have done is tip the dealer $5 before I even start playing, I will say I want to make sure you get something incase I lose it all. Lets say I had a bad meal at a restaurant and decided not to tip because I felt like I lost on my dining experience, only to maybe tip better the next time if I had a meal I liked. Is that acceptable? Here is the thing: A grumpy mean dealer is hurting the other dealers, I suggest speaking to the shift manager about it because that will help out all the other dealers. I feel like this subject pops up frequently on the forum, there are the people that understand dealers are trying to eat and pay rent, and others who think they do not deserve anything.
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:35:33 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

Do you worry about players reporting your "looks" to management?


No, not at all.
The dealers have all been "spied upon" by our corporate office via secret shoppers as to demeanor, bearing, attitude, treatment of players, as well as are all known to regular players and by the management fully.

If a known and reliable player or a co-worker expresses a concern about a particular dealer, it is given highest priority for review.
If some guy with a bug up his throttle walks in off the street, loses his ass, and makes accusations, he may indeed do that, and often does too, but that scenario is taken with a grain of salt.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
aceofspades
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:38:37 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, not at all.





Interesting.
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:40:40 PM permalink
Why? The management has a pulse of what is going on.
If a reliable source indicates a serious problem, it is taken seriously.
If a steaming player makes an accusation against a dealer, and all other indications show that the dealer was fine, the accusations are disregarded as a losing player's resentment and malice, which is actually often the case.
You get drunk and lose your rent money, and want to get a fine dealer fired over your losses, that won't happen, even if you want it to (but shouldn't). People try all the time to attack dealers over gambling losses, nothing new.
What are you going to say to casino management?
1. I lost my ass, and had repeated stiffed the dealer on countless occasions, - and now I want to report the dealer to you for "giving me a 'look'!" Try to do this without looking like a resentful for paranoid loon that walked in off the street.
2. If long-time local players who are deemed reliable file numerous reports that a dealer was using foul language, or soliciting for tips, or making errors without involving the floor supervision, THEN something like this gets looked at seriously, with reprimands and possible terminations.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:49:00 PM permalink
"The way to kill a stingy blackjack player is to deal as fast as possible and offer terrible penetration."



This from Nick on a different thread SIGH
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:52:03 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

"The way to kill a stingy blackjack player is to deal as fast as possible and offer terrible penetration."



This from Nick on a different thread SIGH



It is also from many - MOST - dealers in the industry. For that matter, if you are rude to a waiter or cocktail waitress, and had repeatedly stiffed them, then how do you know for sure what's in really your special sauce or drink? It's always good advice to remain alert - and polite and cooperative - when being dependent on service from others outside the home.

There is nothing wrong in dealing fast, and avoiding small talk with problem players; and at many houses, penetration depth is either very shallow, or within an allowable range.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Hunterhill
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July 26th, 2012 at 3:58:33 PM permalink
One of the funniest things is when dealers think they can change their shuffle to make the player lose.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2012 at 4:01:18 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

One of the funniest things is when dealers think they can change their shuffle to make the player lose.


True; that is only wishful thinking.

And, if the player should win, his mood might change, and he becomes nice all of a sudden. Seen that too, with an "all's forgiven, new begining" approach.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MonkeyMonkey
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July 26th, 2012 at 4:03:00 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

If a known and reliable player or a co-worker expresses a concern about a particular dealer, it is given highest priority for review. If some guy with a bug up his throttle walks in off the street, loses his ass, and makes accusations, he may indeed do that, and often does too, but that scenario is taken with a grain of salt.



Seen this many times and it just comes off as sad and pathetic.

A couple weeks ago I had a guy buy in for $100, at one point he had about $300 in front of him. The guy was a real jack@$$, berating other players for how they played while didn't play anywhere close to perfect BS. Told made racist and sexist comments, at my expense I might add, and finally lost all his money. Then he demands to see a pit boss, so I point him to the closest floor supervisor (figuring rightly that he wouldn't know the difference). He ended up causing such a scene he ended up being escorted out.

I think the anti-tippers would gain a great insight if they had to stand on the dealers side of the table for a while. For every crazy or outrageous thing you see "once in a while" we experience every day. Seriously, I get called rude names and told I'm a "terrible dealer" all the time. I have to laugh when I hear about how easy a job being a dealer is.
aceofspades
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July 26th, 2012 at 4:12:21 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Why? The management has a pulse of what is going on.
If a reliable source indicates a serious problem, it is taken seriously.
If a steaming player makes an accusation against a dealer, and all other indications show that the dealer was fine, the accusations are disregarded as a losing player's resentment and malice, which is actually often the case.
You get drunk and lose your rent money, and want to get a fine dealer fired over your losses, that won't happen, even if you want it to (but shouldn't). People try all the time to attack dealers over gambling losses, nothing new.
What are you going to say to casino management?
1. I lost my ass, and had repeated stiffed the dealer on countless occasions, - and now I want to report the dealer to you for "giving me a 'look'!" Try to do this without looking like a resentful for paranoid loon that walked in off the street.
2. If long-time local players who are deemed reliable file numerous reports that a dealer was using foul language, or soliciting for tips, or making errors without involving the floor supervision, THEN something like this gets looked at seriously, with reprimands and possible terminations.




Firstly, I never said which side of the equation I was on - I was merely trying to figure out what you would do and if you would care if you were 'reported'. Secondly, I think any corporation that wishes to stay in business should take both praise and complaints under advisement whether the person is a)drunk or sober, b)local or tourist, c)winner or loser at the table --- although those variables can affect a player, it works both ways --- I have sought out management to both heap praise for great service and also to complain about poor service --- great service is accounted for in that way and in the tip I give at the table - the same with poor service
My only complaint is the sense of entitlement from ANY SERVICE professional who expects a tip without giving the proper service - or even the now ubiquitous "tip cups" I see everywhere from the local bagel shop to, yes, the 7-11 counter (and no, I am not talking about the "take a penny leave a penny" cup - there was an actual tip cup with "TIPS FOR THE CREW" written on it - seriously!
aceofspades
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July 26th, 2012 at 4:14:32 PM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

Seen this many times and it just comes off as sad and pathetic.

A couple weeks ago I had a guy buy in for $100, at one point he had about $300 in front of him. The guy was a real jack@$$, berating other players for how they played while didn't play anywhere close to perfect BS. Told made racist and sexist comments, at my expense I might add, and finally lost all his money. Then he demands to see a pit boss, so I point him to the closest floor supervisor (figuring rightly that he wouldn't know the difference). He ended up causing such a scene he ended up being escorted out.

I think the anti-tippers would gain a great insight if they had to stand on the dealers side of the table for a while. For every crazy or outrageous thing you see "once in a while" we experience every day. Seriously, I get called rude names and told I'm a "terrible dealer" all the time. I have to laugh when I hear about how easy a job being a dealer is.




People who cannot handle criticism on a daily basis should NOT be in the service industry.

I am in the service industry but I am in a field where we do not receive tips - yet, I have to handle criticism on a daily basis just like you.
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2012 at 4:24:10 PM permalink
Quote: aceofspades

Firstly, I never said which side of the equation I was on - I was merely trying to figure out what you would do and if you would care if you were 'reported'. Secondly, I think any corporation that wishes to stay in business should take both praise and complaints under advisement whether the person is a)drunk or sober, b)local or tourist, c)winner or loser at the table --- although those variables can affect a player, it works both ways --- I have sought out management to both heap praise for great service and also to complain about poor service --- great service is accounted for in that way and in the tip I give at the table - the same with poor service
My only complaint is the sense of entitlement from ANY SERVICE professional who expects a tip without giving the proper service - or even the now ubiquitous "tip cups" I see everywhere from the local bagel shop to, yes, the 7-11 counter (and no, I am not talking about the "take a penny leave a penny" cup - there was an actual tip cup with "TIPS FOR THE CREW" written on it - seriously!


I don't view or expect any customary practice as to be a full entitlement. I never ask for tips or expect tips. I never worry about tips, the lack of tips, or any stiffs. I thank generous people. If a well-behaved person who is easy to deal to is at my table, he does not have to tip, nor do I expect a tip, as I am happy enough to not have a shot taker. I tell fellow dealers not to worry about tips, or to ever "steam" any stiff players. It's bad enough if a winner outright stiffs you, but if you resent it, then you are only punishing yourself needlessly. Do your job right, and worry about nothing.
You have to be very Zen to be a dealer, because you see so many extremes every day.
NO one "has" to tip, but people "may" or "should" tip at least occasionally, when given fine service.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AceCrAAckers
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July 26th, 2012 at 7:41:16 PM permalink
I once was on total tilt and blew $800 short of 20K on a dice table in 30 minutes. Left the dice table and went to a blackjack table. I took the $800 and when the third shoe was finished, I had 19K. As I was still down, I did not tip. This did not make the dealer too happy. The dealers were expecting something and thought they got stiffed. Was still down $1000 so I was in no mood to tip no matter what they thought. I got some nasty stares etc... and walked away.

When I blew $19200 on the craps table earlier, I did not say one thing to the dealers. Did not make any comments or take any pot shot at them or any players.

As far as tipping, tipping is about what the customer feels like he wants to give, it is not manditory. I did not want to go into detail about being down $1000. So what if I walked away with 19k, I was still down. Yea, I was up about 18K from that table but I have never asked the dealer to return the tip I gave even when I go bust, so the dealer should not expect a tip just for tip sake.

It is true that I have also won $105 and tipped $100 and walked away with just $5.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
Beardgoat
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July 26th, 2012 at 8:17:45 PM permalink
I just don't understand this thinking. You can blow 19k but can't tip $20 bucks? I doubt the dealer expected you to give him a yellow but I think that giving none of the dealers anything is highly cheap. If everyone took your point of view than nobody would ever tip because almost everyone is "down" lifetime at a casino.
rxwine
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July 26th, 2012 at 8:30:03 PM permalink
Has anyone ever tried to blow off the 18% gratuity on a group restaurant tab based on the optional argument? (you know, where they say groups of 8, or whatever or more get an automatic gratuity added.

Can you call it a tip if it's indicated it's automatic?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
MarieBicurie
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July 26th, 2012 at 9:50:09 PM permalink
I wonder what would happen if you said it was two groups of 4...
zippyboy
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July 26th, 2012 at 10:10:09 PM permalink
Quote: SFB

Zip:

This statement above?

Tells me everything I need to know about your position.

You will tip those that it is customary to do so, and that you will continue to interact with, so they do not percieve you as the cheapskate that you are.

And everyone else will just get stiffed, because they don't know who you are.

That has a way of coming back around in life, when you least expect it.

PaigowDan said it best, if he takes care of the table, the tips get taken care of, and 10% pays for all the stiffs.

If your $10 is that important, then sobeit.

SFB


You got me spot-on. Well done. I'm perhaps 4% embarrassed that you know me this well. Thank you for the diagnosis, Dr. SFB. Karma, you say? I know I'm opinionated, so what is coming my way? Firings? Divorce? Loneliness? Been there. That's why I'm here.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
NicksGamingStuff
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July 26th, 2012 at 10:23:43 PM permalink
One of my most pleasurable moments was seeing a player win about $500 one night, not tip a single dollar (the dealer was one of our best and most friendly) to return the next day to face me who wiped him out of $700 in about 20 minutes. I did it all with friendly chat and a steady smile that I would have given any other player. When he left I felt a senese of accomplishment, the sad thing is the player probably never considered the fact dealers live off tips.
AceCrAAckers
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July 26th, 2012 at 10:29:03 PM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

One of my most pleasurable moments was seeing a player win about $500 one night, not tip a single dollar (the dealer was one of our best and most friendly) to return the next day to face me who wiped him out of $700 in about 20 minutes. I did it all with friendly chat and a steady smile that I would have given any other player. When he left I felt a senese of accomplishment, the sad thing is the player probably never considered the fact dealers live off tips.



Well done Nick. YOU wiped him out and if you wanted to you would have let him win. Great "accomplishment."
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
AceCrAAckers
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July 26th, 2012 at 10:31:35 PM permalink
Quote: Beardgoat

I just don't understand this thinking. You can blow 19k but can't tip $20 bucks? I doubt the dealer expected you to give him a yellow but I think that giving none of the dealers anything is highly cheap. If everyone took your point of view than nobody would ever tip because almost everyone is "down" lifetime at a casino.



Beargoat, why don't you tip for both of us. Since you are compelled to tell me how to spend my money, I am compelled to tell you how to spend your money and tell you are highly generous for tipping extra.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
NicksGamingStuff
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July 26th, 2012 at 10:36:05 PM permalink
Quote: AceCrAAckers

Well done Nick. YOU wiped him out and if you wanted to you would have let him win. Great "accomplishment."



Well I could have given him better penetration and dealt the cards slower...
AceCrAAckers
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July 26th, 2012 at 10:43:35 PM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Well I could have given him better penetration and dealt the cards slower...



As far as penetration, if he was not a card counter, it does not matter. If you dealt slower, it still would have been the same card so it would not have made a difference. I had a dealer deal supper fast, who would not slow down even when others asked, so I slowed him down by betting rainbow color chips(1 white, 1 pink, 1 red, 1 green). Dealer had to break the stack each time he had to pay me.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
NicksGamingStuff
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July 26th, 2012 at 10:55:34 PM permalink
Well thank you for raining on my parade :) My last comment about tipping is: What ever the customer leaves is always appreciated, even if the dealer does not seem that excited about receiving $5 when a jackpot is hit. It is still X amount of money more than they had for the pool before. I like to think the people who are stiffs have had the luxury of never having to rely on the generosity of others before. Any dealer would rather get a fair salary than have to rely on the players to pay their rent and eat.
WongBo
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July 27th, 2012 at 3:56:39 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Well thank you for raining on my parade :) My last comment about tipping is: What ever the customer leaves is always appreciated, even if the dealer does not seem that excited about receiving $5 when a jackpot is hit. It is still X amount of money more than they had for the pool before. I like to think the people who are stiffs have had the luxury of never having to rely on the generosity of others before. Any dealer would rather get a fair salary than have to rely on the players to pay their rent and eat.



Bull...Most dealers are greedy unappreciative
And have way higher sense of entitlement than the average American,
which is a real accomplishment.
They badmouth low tippers in front of other players and they hustle for tips unmercifully.
This entire thread and the opinions and thoughts of the dealers
is making me less inclined to tip in the future.
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
FinsRule
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July 27th, 2012 at 4:15:46 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Well thank you for raining on my parade :) My last comment about tipping is: What ever the customer leaves is always appreciated, even if the dealer does not seem that excited about receiving $5 when a jackpot is hit. It is still X amount of money more than they had for the pool before. I like to think the people who are stiffs have had the luxury of never having to rely on the generosity of others before. Any dealer would rather get a fair salary than have to rely on the players to pay their rent and eat.



All of this would be fixed if casinos paid their dealers a honest wage, and did not allow tips.
Aussie
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July 27th, 2012 at 4:32:17 AM permalink
Agree 100% Fins. It's not just dealers though, its the whole society.

If you paid everyone a proper wage and simply increased prices to cover it the whole system would be far simpler. Not only would the customer not have to worry about thinking how much they are supposed to tip (or if they're supposed to tip at all), the government wouldn't miss out on the billions of dollars of tax revenue each year that no doubt goes missing because of income from tips that doesn't get declared.

Service industry staff in Australia get paid $20+/hr and generally receive no tips. Service is the same standard as I have experience in the US.
4andaKicker
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July 27th, 2012 at 6:20:44 AM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

. Any dealer would rather get a fair salary than have to rely on the players to pay their rent and eat.



No one forced you to become a dealer. If you don't like it, get a different job. Or you could do what I did when I was young and my job didn't pay enough to support my family: sack up and work 2 jobs. I worked 104 hours a week on 2 full time jobs until we got through the rough patch. Life is tough. I don't say that facetiously. I never asked for help, just did what I had to do to make it, and so should everyone else. The fact you admit you take pleasure in watching players lose tells me all I need to know about what kind of dealer you are.

I'm sticking to my guns and only tipping dealers that deserve it. There is no entitlement, only goodwill.
Beardgoat
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July 27th, 2012 at 6:21:37 AM permalink
Well clearly since only one of us is tipping I will be tipping for the both of us. The boys thank you
Paigowdan
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July 27th, 2012 at 7:05:12 AM permalink
Quote: WongBo

Bull...Most dealers are greedy unappreciative
And have way higher sense of entitlement than the average American,


I've worked as a Vegas dealer for six years, and find this to be simply untrue.
Most dealers make about $30K to $35K, with a tiny percentage working at Caesars.
Most just want to make ends meet.

Quote: WongBo

They badmouth low tippers in front of other players and they hustle for tips unmercifully.


This, too, is a load of malarkey; Both publicly badmouthing players and hustling for tips are terminal offenses. I have never done this at a table, and I don't hustle tips, and my fellow dealers don't do this either. If you see this, you are going to some dive gambling halls.
Quote: WongBo

This entire thread and the opinions and thoughts of the dealers
is making me less inclined to tip in the future.


Wong, first of all there are about three or so dealers on this thread instead of a single voice, a rarity and a relatively new occurrence on this board.

Secondly, if you announce that you'd be less inclined to tip in the future, then it was clear you were never really part of the tipping/contributing players' crowd from the get-go, and we'd all be just as even from jump street anyway; and if you say that you're less inclined to tip in the future, then you were never using tipping as "an appreciation for service" when it had occurred - which means you were probably never tipping anyway.

Thirdly, the real sense of entitlement and abuse is what players attempt to perpetrate on the tables, everything from:
1. shot-taking, and making false bet claims;
2. card-counting and complaining about being backed off,
3. stooping their heads down to hole-card on Three Card Poker,
4. bragging about breaking casino rules of game protocol there and on countless Internet forums (including this one, now run by a casino executive),
5. snapping fingers at dealers and cocktail waitresses to act high-and-mighty in front of a lady friend and dates they're trying to impress like Big Shots at the Casino (abusing workers and taking shots at workers who are trying to provide service to them just so they could impresses dates as to how they can throw their weight around like a VIP or movie star...),
6. and openly asking for and demanding effusive praise and grattitude for an out-of-the-blue dollar tip also to impressive a date ("watch me, Honey, watch me give this piece-of-shit $7 an-hour worker some lessons in MANNERS for a DOLLAR!!" like trying to get a dog to do a trick by throwing him a bone. This is generally met with an "Are you Serious, sir??" by the dealer, and well-deserved.)

- just out of the blue high-and-mighty acts of self-aggrandisement or cheating by players at tables to impress dates and feel important.
The most minor gripe about players is the tipping issue, the most major ones concern issues of ethical values and fair play, gracious and fair behavior and treatment of people who are trying to service these immature individuals (some players do act as if they have had zero home training from their own mothers), arguments with cocktail waitresses and pit bosses about being cut off from booze, and the like. Tipping is the least of the issues.

Indeed, I have repeatedly said that I couldn't care LESS if a player tips or not, knowing TWO things:
1. That the few generous people take care of the situation, with the cheapskates and fleas riding on the backs of these saintly players like lice in a shawl of a holyman, and;
2. When players act with maturity, honesty in play, and with consideration, dealers don't even NOTICE the absence of tips from them, as their fine behavior is the greatest tip on the job; as such, dealers are more grateful of their good behavior than for the cash tossed in. What seems to be the case is that the well-behaved people are usually the tippers to boot.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AceCrAAckers
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July 27th, 2012 at 7:27:15 AM permalink
Quote: Beardgoat

Well clearly since only one of us is tipping I will be tipping for the both of us. The boys thank you



Bull! How is that you only read what you want to and ignore the rest. Like I said before, I have won $105 before and tipped $100 of it. I left a 95% tip. What gives you the right to judge anyone else and tell them they are cheap.

The whole point of the story was I was down $1000 and did not tip and got nasty stares because couple of dealers thought they were entitled to my money. I did not need to hear about lifetime loss bs about most people who gamble.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
Paigowdan
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July 27th, 2012 at 7:46:53 AM permalink
Quote: Beargoat

Well clearly since only one of us is tipping I will be tipping for the both of us. The boys thank you.


This is actually the way it works out. I mean it just works out this way: 90% of the tips come from 10% of the players, with that 10% "carrying" the player population, really, and making it possible. I make $14 an hour as a dealer, $7.50 an hour from salary, and $6.50 an hour from tips, so it REALLY helps.
I know the players who contributed tips made it possible for table games to be offered at some places, and had kept the games at better player edges, else if the house would have had to cover that extra $6.50 an hour for each dealer, tables would close, the remaining table limits would go up, and house edges go up. The tippers really are covering for the cheaper players in many, many ways, - and more than just the dealers should have gratitude for these players.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

The whole point of the story was I was down $1000 and did not tip and got nasty stares because couple of dealers thought they were entitled to my money. I did not need to hear about lifetime loss bs about most people who gamble.


The dealers should not have done that, even to give a look of disdain, but they are human, and they felt stiffed. Can this be seen and understood??

And do NOT look at it like the dealers are "entitled to my money." Look at it like, "the dealer just might not feel that you are carrying your weight," - which is different.

While dealers may never mention someone's "parsimoniousness," they may give an annoyed or impatient look towards someone who is wearing them out WHILE not tipping. In order to get this look, one has to be BOTH a pain AND a stiff, because if you are friendly and gracious and not tipping, you are still forgiven. And considering that an "action of complaint" about tips is a job-threatening risk for a dealer to display, this is quite a statement on the dealer's part, and yes, the dealer will know about the types of players that he sees.

I don't mean to sound harsh here, but for a dealer to get to that point takes quite a lot, as most dealers are as thick-skinned as rawhide, immune to all sorts of things, or else wouldn't be in this business.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
konceptum
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July 27th, 2012 at 8:16:16 AM permalink
Quote: MarieBicurie

I wonder what would happen if you said it was two groups of 4...

I've done this, except it was 5 couples (10 people.). We need to make another thread for wait staff tipping.
FinsRule
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July 27th, 2012 at 8:38:20 AM permalink
This whole thread is a testament to why tipping casino dealers should not be customary.
Nareed
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July 27th, 2012 at 8:43:15 AM permalink
I'd like to see stiffs go into a store and say "I refuse to pay for your staff's salaries. I want a discount equivalent to labor costs."
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Mission146
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July 27th, 2012 at 9:05:38 AM permalink
That's the thing that strikes me as amusing about this thread, the assumption which seems to be that the House isn't going to get the money one way or another. If you have the House increase salaries and stop tipping, then maybe that low-mid limit table that offered free booze stops doing so. The casinos that offer free beverages to VP players playing at the bar may well stop doing that. The slots hold may go up a fraction of a percentage. Player rating could become less liberal.

In short, if you don't tip very well or at all, be thankful for those of us that do as we are indirectly paying for some of your perks. I do not mean that maliciously, because tipping is a choice. A person has the option to sit at a table, go +$50,000, and not tip a red cent if he/she doesn't want to, you have that freedom. I wouldn't run around encouraging people not to tip, though, because the tippers are indirectly paying for some of the perks you get as a result of the casino not having to (directly) pay the dealers everything they make.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
rainman
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July 27th, 2012 at 9:34:09 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I'd like to see stiffs go into a store and say "I refuse to pay for your staff's salaries. I want a discount equivalent to labor costs."



Stores clearly mark the prices of there goods and services so I know exactly what I'm paying. They also don't leave part of there employees compensation up to strangers so they know exactly what to count on every month. Seems to me a much more clear and straight forward situation for there employees and there patrons. Hmmmm.... I wonder why casinos don't do that.

On a side not the chicken and lentil stew is great. I might play around with it a little though.
FinsRule
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July 27th, 2012 at 9:39:23 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I'd like to see stiffs go into a store and say "I refuse to pay for your staff's salaries. I want a discount equivalent to labor costs."



We are paying for their salaries by buying the product. Obviously.

Is your post sarcastic?
Triplell
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July 27th, 2012 at 10:28:26 AM permalink
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are not required to tip. Why not just *not* tip, and be hush hush about it?

I always tip in poker when I win a pot, and I always tip when I win at the tables. Some people just always tip...

I see people who don't tip at all all the time. Yeah, I think they are cheap asses, but they're happy in their own mind. I feel you should follow suit...
AceCrAAckers
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July 27th, 2012 at 11:04:37 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

This is actually the way it works out. I mean it just works out this way: 90% of the tips come from 10% of the players, with that 10% "carrying" the player population, really, and making it possible. I make $14 an hour as a dealer, $7.50 an hour from salary, and $6.50 an hour from tips, so it REALLY helps.
I know the players who contributed tips made it possible for table games to be offered at some places, and had kept the games at better player edges, else if the house would have had to cover that extra $6.50 an hour for each dealer, tables would close, the remaining table limits would go up, and house edges go up. The tippers really are covering for the cheaper players in many, many ways, - and more than just the dealers should have gratitude for these players.


The dealers should not have done that, even to give a look of disdain, but they are human, and they felt stiffed. Can this be seen and understood??

And do NOT look at it like the dealers are "entitled to my money." Look at it like, "the dealer just might not feel that you are carrying your weight," - which is different.

While dealers may never mention someone's "parsimoniousness," they may give an annoyed or impatient look towards someone who is wearing them out WHILE not tipping. In order to get this look, one has to be BOTH a pain AND a stiff, because if you are friendly and gracious and not tipping, you are still forgiven. And considering that an "action of complaint" about tips is a job-threatening risk for a dealer to display, this is quite a statement on the dealer's part, and yes, the dealer will know about the types of players that he sees.

I don't mean to sound harsh here, but for a dealer to get to that point takes quite a lot, as most dealers are as thick-skinned as rawhide, immune to all sorts of things, or else wouldn't be in this business.




When I play poker, I always tip my dealers. The dealers know me and I know them. It is mutually beneficial to spread "good will." Poker dealers in general do not pool their tips together. There is a reason for this. Because they directly benefits from tips, I have found some to work harder and control the game better.

Tipping an indivual dealer is not allowed in tournments. I have tipped a dealer on the sly whom I felt deserved more. I borrowed his phone which had a case and put a benjamin in the case. This way, the dealer could not get in trouble even if he got caught. He let me borrow his phone and what I did afterwards is all on me.

I have tipped $5 for a bottle of water more times than I can remember. I know these waitress and they know me. We have our "local" casino where we feel comfortable. Waitress also, in general, keep their own tip.

I play for the boys on the craps table and bet for them on the hardways and the odds. When I am playing I do this regardless or whether I am winning or not. As far as BJ, I do not play this much any more. It feels too much like work and I play basic strategy. It just happened that I was on tilt and got really lucky to get back most what I lost and not tipped. I did not care for the dealers attitude. Tipping is part of the culture but just because a player walks away with more chips than when he started, does not entitle the dealers to be rude either.
Edward Snowden is not the criminal, the government is for violating the constitution!
kewlj
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July 27th, 2012 at 11:57:23 AM permalink
I wasn't going to respond to this thread as I just got beat up in a similar thread on another board, but what the h*ll, I have thick skin. lol

I support myself solely from playing blackjack. I do not tip.

the situation: I sit down at a table, play a short session as I always do. Some as short as 3 rounds, others as long as 40 or 50 rounds. Lets say one shoe, 18 hands. My expected value for those 18 hands is about $14. How much should I tip for that?? $5?? that's a third of my income. Do you tip a third of your income to anyone? Even the people that enable you to make that living. Do you tip anything at all to the people that clean your office? The building maintanence man? The people that sweep the parking lot and remove snow enabling you to get into the building? And don't include taxes as part of your answer. I pay taxes, same as someone who receives a paycheck. This is my job. I have bills to pay. And retirement to save for. No social security from this job remember. I am not on vacation, playing for fun, or having a night out gambling and drinking. This is my job!

Now, I could probably afford to tip a dollar or two. But again this would be as much as 14% of my income for that session. Who do you tip 14% of your income to that is related to your work?

Now's here's what I go through to earn that $14 for that session. $25 table. Spreading $25 to $400. So when the count rises and I start throwing out my bigger bets, the dealer thinks I should tip $5 a hand, especially if I am winning. 3 hands would eat all of my expected win. ok, again, I could afford to tip $1 or $2. Try doing that when you are betting $400 a hand, especially is you are winning. You get attitude and comments worse than if you had tipped nothing. I have had a dealer tell me "thanks, I can buy a newspaper now". WTF.

Ok now I have had a pretty decent 18 hand session. Count went positive early, big bets. won $900. I am sure at the end, the dealer thinks I should tip $25. But guess what I didn't win $900. I won $14. That is what it will work out to when you average all the winning and losing sessions. EV $14. If I tip $25, I have lost money. Remember this isn't recreation or a hobby. This is how I earn a living.

I sit down at a different blackjack table 12-15 times a day. Sometimes 20. I play almost every day, but lets say 6 days a week. that's roughly 100 times a week I sit down at a table for a short session. If I were to tip just $5 at each session, that is $500 a week. $25,000 a year. That is almost a third of my average yearly winnings. It's just not feasible for me to tip, except in rare instances, which I am not going to go into.
24Bingo
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July 27th, 2012 at 12:23:07 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

This whole thread is a testament to why tipping casino dealers should not be customary.



There's a difference between "should" and "is." Unthinking, self-interested defiance does nothing to institutions.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
texasplumr
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July 27th, 2012 at 12:24:11 PM permalink
I think to myself, how many times can this be re hashed? Oh well....

I'm a red player and when I sit down to play I always ask for 5 white. I play them for the dealer and when they are gone, I get 5 more, and so on until I color up to leave. I'm probably tipping much more than some and less than others. If I've done well and have a bunch of black and green I'll pitch the dealer the reds that were left.

Playing $15.00 3CP at Cesars a few years ago I walked away with 700 more than I bought in for. Had the table to myself sitting at first base. We had a blast! High fiveing, hooting and hollering. The most fun I had the four days I was there. And she probably made more tip money in that short time than the rest of the night. But I gamble for fun! That's what it is about for me. If it was about the money then I wouldn't do it. And just like the cab ride to and from the airport, it's figured into my gambling budget.

If I did this for a living I'd look at it differently. I see their point and get it.
Stupid is a choice
Paigowdan
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July 27th, 2012 at 12:44:38 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I wasn't going to respond to this thread as I just got beat up in a similar thread on another board, but what the h*ll, I have thick skin. lol

I support myself solely from playing blackjack. I do not tip.

the situation: I sit down at a table, play a short session as I always do. Some as short as 3 rounds, others as long as 40 or 50 rounds. Lets say one shoe, 18 hands. My expected value for those 18 hands is about $14. How much should I tip for that?? $5?? that's a third of my income. Do you tip a third of your income to anyone?


No, I tip for service, because my occupation isn't counting-cards or hole-carding or anything ridiculous like THAT - as a JOB!
I make $30K a year as a dealer, plus another $80K or so as a casino game designer and consultant for table game distributors. As such, I wouldn't do anything to "cheat the system" I depend on, which card counting is, as an officially "back-off" or "red-flag" casino offense.
For that matter KwelJ - If you were a restaurant reviewer - would you also still the waitress??
If you were a movie reviewer - you you stiff the valet who parked your car?
No, but then of course, if you worked as a food critic or movie critic, you wouldn't think like a casino shot-taker - looking for a nafarious and freakin' $14 payout, and where a customary $5 tip would backrupt you. [I hope to Chrst the AP's here finally see how pathetic this actual math really is as an income persuit!!!]

Quote: kewlj

Even the people that enable you to make that living. Do you tip anything at all to the people that clean your office?


I would - in a second - if I had to personally interact with them and depend on them in a face-to-face fashion as I do dealers [whom I trust with my winnings and money], waitresses [whom I trust with my food], and valets whom I trust my with new car, and who have to put up with my shit - and with everyones!

Quote: kewlj

The building maintanence man?


Yes. $50 at Christmas, and $30 at Easter, as did all of the other apartment owners. Nothing unusual. Did so since I lived in a New York City Cooperative apartment before moving out to Las Vegas years ago. Along with the doormen. They handle all of our packages, our garbage, and arrange our car service pick-ups, etc. Of course they get tipped. What kind of a stiff in our shared building and community would behave in such a fashion to the hard workers who serve us on a daily basis??

Quote: kewlj

The people that sweep the parking lot and remove snow enabling you to get into the building?


No. The building manager handles them.
Quote: kewlj

And don't include taxes as part of your answer.


I didn't.

Quote: kewlj

I pay taxes, same as someone who receives a paycheck. This is my job. I have bills to pay. And retirement to save for. No social security from this job remember. I am not on vacation, playing for fun, or having a night out gambling and drinking. This is my job!


And...you don't have to tip. If you are poorer (and you seem to be), you just have to be courteous and appreciative and kind to the people who break their asses who provide the services your life's needs depend on when you stiff them, because the richer folk cover your slack, - and they do indeed, when even a token or a dollar would be a fine gesture. Admit it and show gratitude.

Quote: kewlj

Now, I could probably afford to tip a dollar or two. But again this would be as much as 14% of my income for that session. Who do you tip 14% of your income to that is related to your work?


If your life's work or career depends on the very services of other service people to assist your life's work and career (such as dealers, waitresses, and valets at the casinos you visit), perhaps you should consider becoming a dealer, a slot technician, a cage cashier, a bartender, a casino game designer, or a valet, so you could afford to tip a friggin' dollar to the people at the very casinos you depend upon and who provide you with service....you got to admit that at this point, they are on to you....this is ridiculous.....

Quote: kewlj

Now's here's what I go through to earn that $14 for that session. $25 table. Spreading $25 to $400. So when the count rises and I start throwing out my bigger bets, the dealer thinks I should tip $5 a hand, especially if I am winning. 3 hands would eat all of my expected win. ok, again, I could afford to tip $1 or $2. Try doing that when you are betting $400 a hand, especially is you are winning. You get attitude and comments worse than if you had tipped nothing. I have had a dealer tell me "thanks, I can buy a newspaper now". WTF.


WTF really. You're getting the attitudes NOT because you are not tipping, but because the casino dealers, floormen, and operators are pretty much onto your game as a casino grinder, and not as an authentic gambler. did you ever consider that as a possibility. There are countless gamblers who never tip, but never get any attitude from the dealers or the floor, because they're they to play, not as a "job..." and a bad one of at that, - if you have to sweat a token dollar tip on a theoretical $14 win. Retarded, really.

Quote: kewlj

Ok now I have had a pretty decent 18 hand session.


Good to hear...
Quote: kewlj

Count went positive early, big bets. won $900.


Now, gimme the play-by-play....
Quote: kewlj

I am sure at the end, the dealer thinks I should tip $25. But guess what I didn't win $900. I won $14.


The dealer expected you to tip because he KNEW you were just "working him" as your job, - while he was stuck doing half your work. Card counters forget this. If you were a retired high school principal out on the town with his wife, the dealer would have been 100% different.

Quote: kewlj

That is what it will work out to when you average all the winning and losing sessions. EV $14. If I tip $25, I have lost money. Remember this isn't recreation or a hobby.


It ought to be. Think about that.
Quote: kewlj

This is how I earn a living.


And as you described it, a very sad and miserable way to make a living. Now I can lose or win $1,000 or $2,000 on dice or Pai Gow twice a month at some casino before a show or a steak house dinner, without breaking a sweat as to making my two car payments, my mortgage, my IRA contributions, - and I tip.
I guess if I were a casino grinder I WOULD sweat a $1 tip on a $14 expected win. I also guess the lifestyle ain't like the movie "21" at this point.

It's obvious to us here. Is it clear to you that it might not be working?


Quote: kewlj

I sit down at a different blackjack table 12-15 times a day. Sometimes 20. I play almost every day, but lets say 6 days a week. that's roughly 100 times a week I sit down at a table for a short session. If I were to tip just $5 at each session, that is $500 a week. $25,000 a year. That is almost a third of my average yearly winnings. It's just not feasible for me to tip, except in rare instances, which I am not going to go into.


You're taking up a HUGE amount of casino resources that you just stick on other people to cover. Other people like retirees and tourists are covering up to $25,000 a year of your slack, so you can scam a casino operator, a provider of recreation little different than the film or food service industry. That is the real deal in this business.
If I spend 100 - that is: One Hundred sessions - at some task each week, I'd make certain that I'd be the screenwriter of "Gone with the Wind," or the composer of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, or artwork in the Metropolitan Museum, or be the president of Station Casinos, or the Director of "The Dark Knight Rises," or what have you. Martin Scorsese, what have you, with a career. A casino grinder isn't a life.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FinsRule
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July 27th, 2012 at 12:49:18 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

There's a difference between "should" and "is." Unthinking, self-interested defiance does nothing to institutions.



And what is your point...
MakingBook
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July 27th, 2012 at 12:50:09 PM permalink
Quote: 4andaKicker

I'm sticking to my guns and only tipping dealers that deserve it. There is no entitlement, only goodwill.



In most casino's, when you tip one dealer, you tip them all; not just the one's that "deserve it"

I tip NONE, because NONE deserve it.

After reading the comments of the dealers in this thread, I am convinced I will NEVER tip a dealer.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
Paigowdan
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July 27th, 2012 at 1:03:31 PM permalink
Quote: MakingBook

After reading the comments of the dealers in this thread, I am convinced I will NEVER tip a dealer.


Never have, never missed anyhow.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
kewlj
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July 27th, 2012 at 1:15:40 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

card counting is, as an officially "back-off" or "red-flag" casino offense.



Card counting is an "offense" ONLY in the eyes of the casino. There isn't a judge or jury anywhere that has ever declared card counting as anything but legal. The casino industry just doesn't want it. They want no one that uses their brain in any way. They only want people that are willing to lose. If they were honest they would hang a sign that says "winner not welcome. Only losers". They are simply an industry they preys on people's weaknesses and even that isn't enough. They will fill you full of free liquor to make sure that your judgement is impaired. They prey on the older people taking their social security. They prey on people with addictions. They prey on the weak. But it's ok, because they have a little disclaimer at the bottom about problem gambling absorbing them of all their sins. I mean come on the industry cashes peoples pay checks, enticing them with various bonuses, to lose their paychecks before they ever get home. Before they pay their rent and mortgage. Before the buy food for their kids. Before you throw, stones, perhaps you should look in the mirror. YOU should be ashamed to earn a living as part of an industry that preys on the weak. And it appears from your comments that you fit right in with a 'bully mentality'.

Your inability to have a discussion and share viewpoints without getting nasty and throwing insults, has just demonstrated the "ATTITUDE" that many dealers have that I was talking about. It is a wonder anyone tips you.
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