Ever Use an Attorney?
A friend of mine had a factory about 15 years ago. He had a several lawyers and one of them was considered a friend. This 'friend' borrowed 100K from my friend. The lawyer then got real chummy with him and they went out to dinner and lunch a lot, played golf on weekends. Of course they talked about business, that was what they had in common. This went on for about a year and all of a sudden, the lawyer was always unavailable. Turns out he'd been paying off my friends loan by secretly billing him for the 'free' legal advice he was giving on the social outings. When the 100K was 'paid back', he broke off the relationship. My friend still hasn't gotten over it. Its not the money, he really thought the sociopath lawyer was his friend. I tried to warn him. Now the lawyer is in deep trouble for a Ponzi scheme he was involved in. Oh well.
Quote: EvenBobGot any good attorney stories?
A friend of mine had a factory about 15 years ago. He had a several lawyers and one of them was considered a friend. This 'friend' borrowed 100K from my friend. The lawyer then got real chummy with him and they went out to dinner and lunch a lot, played golf on weekends. Of course they talked about business, that was what they had in common. This went on for about a year and all of a sudden, the lawyer was always unavailable. Turns out he'd been paying off my friends loan by secretly billing him for the 'free' legal advice he was giving on the social outings. When the 100K was 'paid back', he broke off the relationship. My friend still hasn't gotten over it. Its not the money, he really thought the sociopath lawyer was his friend. I tried to warn him. Now the lawyer is in deep trouble for a Ponzi scheme he was involved in. Oh well.
Sounds like he could have had a case against the lawyer. Even at $200/hr that is 500 hours and should have billed along the way.
But I do know a lawyer who was voted "most likely to succeed" in HS and is now negotiating a fraud plea. I was told by another lawyer that the guy will at best end up a very overqualified paralegal but will never ger a law license again.
Quote: AZDuffmanSounds like he could have had a case against the lawyer. Even at $200/hr that is 500 hours and should have billed along the way.
He has a case...but a case against someone who likely has no money often results in a large judgment that will never be paid.
Quote: RonCHe has a case...but a case against someone who likely has no money often results in a large judgment that will never be paid.
He was going to sue him, but the lawyer he talked to said it was unlikely he would ever get paid and the legal fee's would be very high. The lawyer who's involved in the Ponzi scheme is married to a lawyer, and he's now involved her in the case and they'll lose their licences and maybe even get jail time. You wonder why there aren't more lawyer jokes than there are.
Quote: EvenBobAbout 10 years ago we were looking at some property and needed a real estate attorney. We visited him once and I talked to him on the phone 4 times, for about 10min each time. A few weeks later I got a bill for $900. After I recovered, I called him and asked for an itemized bill detailing what every penny was for. He said he didn't have time for that, just send him $400 and it would be OK. Just like that, he knocked $500 off the bill! So I sent him $300 and never heard from him again. Its really hard to believe until you experience it first hand.
Remember "The Firm" where Tom Cruise was told if you even think about a case while sitting in traffic you bill the time?
Michael Conahan
Mark Ciavarella
Robert Powell
Powell lived in the next development over from us, much nicer homes though, and some of our close friends are also his close friends, although we've never socialized with the Powells ourselves. (We're actually close friends with the FBI agent who worked to unravel the case. He's not the same friend as in the previous sentence, though.)
If you don't know the story, here it is: Kids for Cash Scandal
Billy D'Elia's girlfriend lives across the street from us. Billy traded information on the scandal for considerations in prison. Notice, he testified in the case that got the Mt Airy Casino pulled from Louis Denaples. I've never met Mr Denaples, but I've sat in his seats at Eagles games, got them from a mutual friend.
Quote: MoscaThese three guys were customers of mine. Not much funny about them, though.
Yup, lawyers think they can get away with and get out of anything. And they do get out of a lot of stuff that would nail the rest of us. But when you start dealing with the Fed's, its a lot harder.
But when you get in trouble, Who You Gonna Call?
*clue: it ain't gonna be ghostbusters*
Quote: MrV
But when you get in trouble, Who You Gonna Call?
OMG! Thats exactly what the guy in the Ponzi scheme always used to say! When he was conning my friend, I probably had dinner with the three of us about a dozen times. He would say 'who you gonna call' every time anything negative was said about lawyers. Everything is set up so we have no choice but to call a lawyer. The laws were written by them, and the only way to understand the law is to hire one. Here's another lawyer story. I was in an accident where I was injured about 15 years ago. I sued the company involved and my lawyer said he gets a third of the settlement and I get the rest. Is that what happened? Hell no. The lawyer got paid out of the insurance check, and State Farm got paid back for the money they put out for medical expenses. I was never told by anybody this would happen. I ended up with half as much as the lawyer got. Whats the point of insurance if you have to pay them back?
Quote: JL2I've never used or needed an attorney for anything. It's all in how you live your life.
I suppose it is. I'm a consultant and use attorneys to review almost every single one of my patent filings, client contracts, or licensing deals. On the other hand, attorneys use me quite a bit as well...
Quote: JL2It's all in how you live your life.
Yeah, if you have nothing and buy nothing and own nothing and never have accidents, you're right, you probably will never need an attorney. Congratulations.
I used an attorney to marry.
I am having a baby daughter with this attorney in July. See, there are a lot of things they can be useful for.
Quote: EvenBobYeah, if you have nothing and buy nothing and own nothing and never have accidents, you're right, you probably will never need an attorney. Congratulations.
I don't own much but I have a home, 2 cars, and another little lot. I've had one accident, it was the other driver's fault, and I settled it myself. Did quite well but I know I would have done a lot better if I hired an attorney. Just didn't want the mess they take you through and wanted to get it over with.
It's like taxes and financial matters. I've always done our taxes without outside help, never had a problem because I read and respect the tax laws (even though I hate some of them) and I'll dance the jig naked in the Rocky Mtn. in Colorado in the winter time before I ever hire one of thos totally useless "financial advisors". Even if I win Powerball I can think & do for myself.
Quote: JL2I don't own much .
There you go, then. Again, congratulations, Jerry.
Quote: JL2I don't own much but I have a home, 2 cars, and another little lot. I've had one accident, it was the other driver's fault, and I settled it myself. Did quite well but I know I would have done a lot better if I hired an attorney. Just didn't want the mess they take you through and wanted to get it over with.
It's like taxes and financial matters. I've always done our taxes without outside help, never had a problem because I read and respect the tax laws (even though I hate some of them) and I'll dance the jig naked in the Rocky Mtn. in Colorado in the winter time before I ever hire one of thos totally useless "financial advisors". Even if I win Powerball I can think & do for myself.
That's your call, but if you know you would have done a lot better and you chose not to, was the saved time worth all the money you gave up?
As for taxes, I use an accountant (not an attorney) for my filings. Every year, I do a quick test in TurboTax online as an estimate. Then I compare it against what my accountant comes back with. This year, the difference was over 5 figures in my favor. I went from TurboTax telling me I owed the IRS to actually getting a refund. My accountant is easily worth 10x to me what I pay him. That might be one of the best investments I make all year. Where else can you find a 10x gainer?
Quote: MathExtremistMy accountant is easily worth 10x to me what I pay him. That might be one of the best investments I make all year.
But you probably make more than 18K a year, which is obviously where Jerry 2 is stuck at.
I did work in a law office for about 5 months when I was in college. Saw some very sad things (worst: dim-witted 20-something dude basically got raped by a 13 year old girl, then charged for it. He's still in prison.) and some funny things (best: my boss's wife was a doctor. she was pregnant. There were hospital-induced complications during the delivery. The nurse started in with "Well, sir, this just isn't my fault. It's all on your wife. If she'd listened..." and my boss simply said "ma'am, my wife is an MD and I'm a plaintiff's attorney. You're going to want to watch what you're about to say *very* carefully right now...")
Quote: EvenBobBut you probably make more than 18K a year, which is obviously where Jerry 2 is stuck at.
Again I ask, why do you portray leading such a lonely, sour life? You're not even very clever with your comments.
Quote: JL2Who on earth would need an attorney to handle any of that?
I've used a lawyer for every piece of property I've ever bought or sold. When I owned the bar, used one for the buy and the sell. Ditto for the shipping and mailbox biz. And so on. Whenever you're dealing with an amount over what you can easily afford to lose, you're a fool if you don't use an attorney. And thats according the non-attorney experts.
Quote: JL2Again I ask, why do you portray leading such a lonely, sour life? You're not even very clever with your comments.
You and Jerry and Singer all get personal, and its always the same thing: Why are you such a sad/lonely/unmarried/sour/disturbed/negative/unfulfilled/etc person. Find some new material. And I was being truthful, not clever.
Quote: EvenBobYou and Jerry and Singer all get personal, and its always the same thing: Why are you such a sad/lonely/unmarried/sour/disturbed/negative/unfulfilled/etc person. Find some new material. And I was being truthful, not clever.
Even that wasn't clever, which is obviously your aim....or truthful. But it was personal. You just can't help yourself can you.
Quote: JL2Even that wasn't clever....or truthful. But it was personal. You just can't help yourself can you.
Know what Jerry? I'm sick of you and your endless nonsense and am blocking you. Goodbye.
Quote: EvenBobI've used a lawyer for every piece of property I've ever bought or sold. When I owned the bar, used one for the buy and the sell. Ditto for the shipping and mailbox biz. And so on. Whenever you're dealing with an amount over what you can easily afford to lose, you're a fool if you don't use an attorney. And thats according the non-attorney experts.
I've made numerous real estate transactions over the years and it never once entered my mind NOT to use an attorney.
Peace of mind......priceless!!!
Quote: benbakdoffI've made numerous real estate transactions over the years and it never once entered my mind NOT to use an attorney.
Peace of mind......priceless!!!
I started listening to Bruce Williams on the radio in the late 70's and he drilled having a lawyer into our heads. He was 100% correct. Always rely on experts, thats what they're there for.
Attorneys are a business, they don't really care about you or your issue or your problem anywhere near the level you do. You also learn a lot more and become far more savvy about your business if you take the time to study up on what it is a lawyer would be doing for you in advance, then do it yourself. I've had a small business in the past, I've had issues, and I always took care of them to my advantage myself. This notion that having a lawyer is many times better for you profitwise or you're better off with one because they'll catch things you won't, is not close to the truth. When I had my car accident I could have used the "Heavy Hitter" Glen Lerner and that other guy on steroids in business with him, but I didn't. They may have gotten me more money because of some little known loopholes, but my time was worth a helluva lot more than dealing with all their shananigans. I did fine negotiating with Farmers and I'd do it again given the "opportunity".
Quote: EvenBobOMG! Thats exactly what the guy in the Ponzi scheme always used to say! When he was conning my friend, I probably had dinner with the three of us about a dozen times. He would say 'who you gonna call' every time anything negative was said about lawyers. Everything is set up so we have no choice but to call a lawyer. The laws were written by them, and the only way to understand the law is to hire one. Here's another lawyer story. I was in an accident where I was injured about 15 years ago. I sued the company involved and my lawyer said he gets a third of the settlement and I get the rest. Is that what happened? Hell no. The lawyer got paid out of the insurance check, and State Farm got paid back for the money they put out for medical expenses. I was never told by anybody this would happen. I ended up with half as much as the lawyer got. Whats the point of insurance if you have to pay them back?
I would recommend that you start reading insurance policies before paying premiums on them. Did you expect a windfall from your injury?
Quote: bbvk05I would recommend that you start reading insurance policies before paying premiums on them.
You missed my point. My attorney TOLD me he gets a third and I get the rest. He damn well knew State Farm would get a big chunk of it and never mentioned it. When he handed me the pitiful check in his office, and I flipped out, he finally explained it. I have since talked to others who were in accidents and none of them knew about the insurance thing either. I pay insurance for 30 years so they can get reimbursed for something I've been paying into for 30 years. Gosh, makes sense to me.
Quote: EvenBobI pay insurance for 30 years so they can get reimbursed for something I've been paying into for 30 years. Gosh, makes sense to me.
However, it somehow does make sense to you to get paid twice for the same thing (collect insurance and sue), doesn't it?
And I don't think you paid for this insurance btw. It was likely the other party's insurance that paid for the accident, not your insurance.
After you won the suit, they paid you again, so you are supposed to return the first payment, because why in the world would they have to pay twice?
If the lawyer explained this to you ahead of time, you likely would have changed your mind and not sued at all, and he would not be able to collect his fee. Why would he do that?
When you owned a bar, did you routinely explain to your customers, that they could get cheaper liquors in the store around the corner, or did you focus more on discussing the reasons to use your services instead of drinking alone at home?
Quote: EvenBobYou missed my point. My attorney TOLD me he gets a third and I get the rest. He damn well knew State Farm would get a big chunk of it and never mentioned it. When he handed me the pitiful check in his office, and I flipped out, he finally explained it. I have since talked to others who were in accidents and none of them knew about the insurance thing either. I pay insurance for 30 years so they can get reimbursed for something I've been paying into for 30 years. Gosh, makes sense to me.
It does make sense. I was recently rear-ended and I had a choice of:
1. Let my company pay for it straight up, then collect from the other guys company but I would be responsible for any shortage
2. Cliam against the other guys company
Now, a rear-end hit is open and shut. But if it was not so simple I could collect from my company and get on the road fast. Then when his company or he paid me I have to give the "advance" back to him. I could argue the case myself to his company. Or I could pay an attorney to do so. Naturally the attorney will charge a fee for this service, after all we are not communists.
Sounds like you wanted to hit the "personal injury lottery" and are upset about not doing so?
Quote: weaselman
It was likely the other party's insurance that paid for the accident, not your insurance.
After you won the suit, they paid you again, so you are supposed to return the first payment, because why in the world would they have to pay twice?
Nice try, but no cee-gar. State Farm paid ALL of my bills. My insurance company. After they got their money back, I called my agent and asked, WTF? He said State Farm has to get their money back from somebody, so they get it from the other insurance company! When I asked him what I was paying for every month, he said 'Coverage, of course.' So State Farm insures me, I pay every month, so they can break even on an accident, and keep my 30 years of monthly payments? In other words, I'm paying for nothing. What a nice scam. Bottom line is, my jerk off attorney lied to me when he said he keeps a third and I get the rest. They are all in bed with each other, its sickening.
Quote: AZDuffman
Sounds like you wanted to hit the "personal injury lottery" and are upset about not doing so?
Hardly. I live in a 'no fault' state. My insurance pays all the bills. If I pay monthly premiums for 30 years, that money is supposed to cover me, not let my insurance company break even on my misfortune by taking my settlement to balance their books. I got screwed because I permanently lost the function of a body part (no, it wasn't my dick), and was never compensated for that. Every jackass involved made sure they were taken care of first. Screw me, I was the least of their problems.
Quote: EvenBobHardly. I live in a 'no fault' state. My insurance pays all the bills. If I pay monthly premiums for 30 years, that money is supposed to cover me, not let my insurance company break even on my misfortune by taking my settlement to balance their books. I got screwed because I permanently lost the function of a body part (no, it wasn't my dick), and was never compensated for that. Every jackass involved made sure they were taken care of first. Screw me, I was the least of their problems.
But the alternitive would still be to not have made the claim at your company and sue the other party, then collect from his/her insurance. You would still need to hire an attorney. Attorneys will work on either contigency or retainer. So only alternitive to payin t the 1/3 would be to put up say a $10,000 retainer and get charged off hourly. But you cannot collect from two insurance companies for the same claim. In fact, you cannot even insure your car with more than one insurance company, then total it, then collect a total loss from several carriers. If you could, I'd buy a Cadillac then get coverage form 3-4 carriers, then total it and get 3-4xs my money.
Quote: EvenBobNice try, but no cee-gar. State Farm paid ALL of my bills. My insurance company. After they got their money back, I called my agent and asked, WTF? He said State Farm has to get their money back from somebody, so they get it from the other insurance company! When I asked him what I was paying for every month, he said 'Coverage, of course.' So State Farm insures me, I pay every month, so they can break even on an accident, and keep my 30 years of monthly payments?
Because it was the other guy's fault, they were able to recover their cost. If you were at fault in the accident, they would have to pay for your damages and the other guy's. That's what your premiums would cover.
Quote:In other words, I'm paying for nothing. What a nice scam.
No, not for nothing. You are paying for protection from damages that you cannot recover.
This particular accident was paid for by the other guy.
Quote:Bottom line is, my jerk off attorney lied to me when he said he keeps a third and I get the rest. They are all in bed with each other, its sickening.
Why is it particularly sickening about lawyers though? I bought a long distance calling card, and they did not tell me there was a connection fee. It was printed at the bottom of the card in microscopic font, of course, but they did not tell me that when I was buying it, just mentioned their (very attractive) rates. Isn't it as sickening?
I subscribed to a cable TV, because the deal was really good ... but they did not tell me, I had to pay another $15/month for each cable box. Isn't this sickening.
It may be sickening, but it's just the way businesses operate. Caveat emptor!
A lawyer runs a business just like those other guys. Nothing to be surprised with.
I disagree. A lawyer is running a business (sometimes), but more importantly, he or she is a fiduciary to his or her client. You owe certain duties that a corporation just would not owe to you. One of those duties is loyalty, and FULL disclosure. This guy should have laid out the terms of the settlement beforehand, and told Bob that he was taking his 1/3rd BEFORE the insurance company got their cut. I'm with Bob on this one. If that is not established practice in Michigan, you have a case against him for malpractice, or at the very least you could make a complaint to the state bar association.Quote: weaselmanWhy is it particularly sickening about lawyers though? I bought a long distance calling card, and they did not tell me there was a connection fee. It was printed at the bottom of the card in microscopic font, of course, but they did not tell me that when I was buying it, just mentioned their (very attractive) rates. Isn't it as sickening?
I subscribed to a cable TV, because the deal was really good ... but they did not tell me, I had to pay another $15/month for each cable box. Isn't this sickening.
It may be sickening, but it's just the way businesses operate. Caveat emptor!
A lawyer runs a business just like those other guys. Nothing to be surprised with.
Quote: teddysYou owe certain duties that a corporation just would not owe to you.
Not as much as you seem to think actually.
Quote:One of those duties is loyalty, and FULL disclosure. This guy should have laid out the terms of the settlement beforehand, and told Bob that he was taking his 1/3rd BEFORE the insurance company got their cut.
If that was true, Bob would be able to just find another lawyer, and sue this guy for damages.
The reason it is not going to happen is that what you said above is just wishful thinking.
If Bob asked a question directly, and the lawyer lied to him then he would have violated his fiduciary duty to him. But guessing what your client would like to know is not his job.
Quote:I'm with Bob on this one. If that is not established practice in Michigan, you have a case against him for malpractice, or at the very least you could make a complaint to the state bar association.
I am pretty sure that it is established practice. The lawyers are not expected to answer questions that have not been asked. They do have to be honest, but you cannot expect them to guess everything you don't know, and educate you on every aspect of your life. I am sure, if they tried to do that, Bob would be one of the first ones complaining about being charged $500/hour for stupid educational sessions, dumping tons of info on him that he never wanted to know in the first place.
So this may turn on what the practice of these types of things is. (Hell, I sure don't know, and you don't either. Who does: the laywer! Which is why he should tell you.)
I have a problem with many attorney practices and the whole billing thing has so many holes for scamming or quasi-scamming that it really should be changed.
Quote: teddysI'm not convinced, and do not want to go tete a tete with you, but I think (1) A lawyer should be upfront about their fee, whether hourly or retainer, and when that fee is going to be charged (e.g., phone conversations, face-to-face meetings, etc.).
I agree it's an obligation on the part of any service provider to state what he's going to charge, even if he can only give an estimate. But it's also a responsibility on the part of the customer to ask how much it's going to cost, especially with people who deal in long-term problems like lawyers and doctors. When I went to my preliminary electrolysis appointment, they told me the price per hour, per 20 hours, discounted advance payment options, even how much the needles would cost. When people don't tell you the cost upfront, they're more likely to try to cheat you.
Quote: AltutThis thread is confirmation that in 99% of all issues, you do not need a lawyer to handle them for you. Talk to anyone who's used one and they'll complain about an experience they had. Bring the issue up on a forum that has nothing to do with lawyers, and everyone's an expert in using them.
Same can be said about doctors, real estate brokers or auto mechanics.
Think about the prices your PCP charges for routine visits. I only have one word to describe them - outrageous. More over, 99.9% of the advice I get from my doctor, I could have easily googled in less time than I had to spend in his waiting room. Yet people continue using doctors instead of taking care of their own problems by themselves. Why? Because the risk is too high. It may work out just fine 9 times, and then you'd die because of some stupid thing you did not think about. There is even no guarantee the doc would be able to think of that thing had you gone to him ... we just like to think, that the probability is higher because of his experience and education.
Same thing with the lawyers. Yeah, you could probably handle some or most of that stuff on your own, but if you ever run into one case that you can't, you won't know about it until it is too late.
Quote: EvenBobWhat ticked me off the most was he got his third off the top, then came State Farm, and I end up with the crap end of the stick and it was MY injury.
Again, State Farm did not "come then". You still got that money. They paid it to you when they processed your claim.
Quote:He talked me out of a jury trial, saying its costs too much and takes too long.
It really does. But if you don't care about time, and if your fee agreement with the lawyer was that he gets the third and that's it (most of the time, it is something like the third plus expenses, which include stuff like expert witness fees, jury consultants, sometimes even the lawyer's time in court), then you should not have let him talk you out of it.
Quote:It was a slam dunk case, I was at a warehouse on a business call and was knocked off a loading dock by one of their trucks. It was interesting when I got the check and went to his office to confront him. He's about 5'5" tall and believe me, I had the little crook terrified by the time I left.
I am still not sure I understand what you were unhappy with. Do you feel your real damages are higher than the amount you won? Or is it just frustration because you thought you'd get more, and then it turned out you had to pay State Farm back, more along the lines of those guys who thought they won the lottery, and then figured out it was an error in the newspaper?
Quote: weaselman
I am still not sure I understand what you were unhappy with.
As I said, I permanently lost use of part of my body and I got nothing for it. I tried to switch lawyers half way thru and the new lawyer said the old lawyer will still get paid part of the settlement, so I would be paying 2 lawyers. He also didn't mention paying the insurance company. Somebody I knew years ago told me he got shot by somebody he was delivering a FedEx package to, and he got screwed the same way. Nobody but nobody along the line mentioned paying back the insurance co. He walks with a permanent limp and received no compensation for it. I later learned that lawyers will do almost anything to stay out of court. And you wonder why there are lawyer jokes.
Quote: EvenBobAs I said, I permanently lost use of part of my body and I got nothing for it.
Was it a trial (I know, you said no jury, but was it a bench trial) or a settlement?
You did not exactly get nothing. You got the money State Farm originally paid to you, plus what was left of the suit award. It may be less than you would like, but it's not "nothing".
Either way, the amount is not the lawyer's fault (at least, not entirely). If the case was settled, it is you, not your lawyer who ultimately agreed to the terms, and if it was a bench trial, then the judge had decided that your compensation was fair - this is not to say, that you'd necessarily get more had you gone with the jury trial, I actually think it is quite unlikely.
Quote:He also didn't mention paying the insurance company.
Well, to tell you the truth, I was completely surprised when you said you did not know that you don't get the same money twice. Up until now, I assumed, that everybody knew this, because it is just common sense. I am pretty sure that that was the case with your lawyers as well.
Quote:I later learned that lawyers will do almost anything to stay out of court. And you wonder why there are lawyer jokes.
The reason they want to stay out of court is similar to that why doctors want to avoid surgery. Trial lawyer's time is extremely expensive, plus, there are massive other expenses, that you would have to cover, and on top of that, the decision of the court (whether bench or jury, although the latter is way more so) is very much of a lottery, however simple case you think you may have. Just like a chance of a patient dying after a simple appendicitis surgery, there is always a chance, that you'll get nothing at al, and stuck with the costs because the judge did not like you or because you looked too rich to the jury.
Quote: weaselmanWas it a trial (I know, you said no jury, but was it a bench trial) or a settlement?
You did not exactly get nothing. .
Obviously, it was a settlement. And I got damn near next to nothing. The lawyer told me half a dozen times he got a third and I got THE REST. He never ever said 'you get whats left over after I get paid and the insurance co gets paid.' When I asked State Farm why I got nothing for loss of use, they said I should have had a jury trial! Which my lawyer was vehemently against! This is my last comment on this. You can play your violins for the poor attorney all you like, but he LIED to me, a lie of omission. He knew damn well that if I'd known the truth, I would have had a jury trial. I repeat, why do you think lawyers are considered the scum of the earth? Because they lie, cheat and steal whatever they can under the cover of the law. Duh..
