NY AP move explained
Leave it to the good doctor. let me guess, you were a school hall monitor as well. J/K.Quote: SOOPOOAxel, I asked him, as it is basically his forum. I felt darkoz was being ostracized unfairly. I tried to present a balanced view, mostly agreeing with you, actually. You telling him it's bad, Aces and Eights telling him it's good, me middling it..... Let's hear from the boss.
Here's how I see it, he got into some back and forth with MD and decided he didn't like all the attention MD was receiving(negative or otherwise) and decided he had something to prove.. So he decided to go back to that same old well again. Anything to talk about that one hit wonder. I would like to say he goaded Into it, however, I'm not sure you could be goaded in something when you're actually looking for the opportunity.
I'm not quite sure I would say he's been ostracized unfairly, it's self inflicted. He knows spreading TMI is loathed by most other AP's and potentially harmful to other AP's bottom line. It seems like it's more important for him to prove something and get personal attention than than it is protecting the AP community.
Remember when he had no clue if the Plaza Promo had any value and posted about it on the Forum? One can only take from that, he didn't have enough knowledge about AP to realize the value, or it didn't matter to him since he wasn't going to play it anyways. I have a feeling it was both.
For whatever reason, DO does this type of stuff. I doubt anybody is going to change that. I'm not trying to stop his freedom of speech. I can only hope other people( perhaps someone new) will take heed and realize spreading TMI about AP is a bad thing.
Quote: AxelWolfLeave it to the good doctor. let me guess, you were a school hall monitor as well. J/K.
Here's how I see it, he got into some back and forth with MD and decided he didn't like all the attention MD was receiving(negative or otherwise) and decided he had something to prove.. So he decided to go back to that same old well again. Anything to talk about that one hit wonder. I would like to say he goaded Into it, however, I'm not sure you could be goaded in something when you're actually looking for the opportunity.
I'm not quite sure I would say he's been ostracized unfairly, it's self inflicted. He knows spreading TMI is loathed by most other AP's and potentially harmful to other AP's bottom line. It seems like it's more important for him to prove something and get personal attention than than it is protecting the AP community.
Remember when he had no clue if the Plaza Promo had any value and posted about it on the Forum? One can only take from that, he didn't have enough knowledge about AP to realize the value, or it didn't matter to him since he wasn't going to play it anyways I have a feeling it was both.
For whatever reason, DO does this type of stuff. I doubt anybody is going to change that. I'm not trying to stop his freedom of speech. I can only hope other people( perhaps someone new) will take heed and realize spreading TMI about AP is a bad thing.
Not everyone has admitted they are in this to write a book about the industry.
But note while an accomplished writer in the past, his genre is fiction.
Quote: AxelWolfLeave it to the good doctor. let me guess, you were a school hall monitor as well. J/K.
Here's how I see it, he got into some back and forth with MD and decided he didn't like all the attention MD was receiving(negative or otherwise) and decided he had something to prove.. So he decided to go back to that same old well again. Anything to talk about that one hit wonder. I would like to say he goaded Into it, however, I'm not sure you could be goaded in something when you're actually looking for the opportunity.
I'm not quite sure I would say he's been ostracized unfairly, it's self inflicted. He knows spreading TMI is loathed by most other AP's and potentially harmful to other AP's bottom line. It seems like it's more important for him to prove something and get personal attention than than it is protecting the AP community.
Remember when he had no clue if the Plaza Promo had any value and posted about it on the Forum? One can only take from that, he didn't have enough knowledge about AP to realize the value, or it didn't matter to him since he wasn't going to play it anyways. I have a feeling it was both.
For whatever reason, DO does this type of stuff. I doubt anybody is going to change that. I'm not trying to stop his freedom of speech. I can only hope other people( perhaps someone new) will take heed and realize spreading TMI about AP is a bad thing.
Again, you discount my skills.
I didnt recognize the value of the plaza promotion? That is patently ridiculous. Why would I post up a promo with no value? DUUIHHHHHH!
I knew its value and wanted people to be aware of its existence
What I didnt know is that APs believe nationally advertised promos, seen as far away as NYC newspapers were believed to be best kept secrets
Do we really want to relitigate the stupidity of that situation?
Do.you really want to keep challenging me on my knowledge. You really want to claim my NY AP move was a one hit wonder?
You really want to see the multitude of wonders I can spread?
As we have seen from posts here no one is scared that I know too little. They are scared that I know too much!
I am not the one thats afraid of casinos
I'm getting mixed signals because you "liked" other posts ITT from people who are completely unhinged, calling him a troll and threatening to quit the forum.Quote: AxelWolfI'm not trying to stop his freedom of speech.
This is not difficult. You can ask him to STFU, but you have no right to demand it.
Quote: randompersonThis is a very smart well thought out intelligent play and shows a lot of deep thought on your part to put all the pieces together. There was probably a ton of work in the background leading up to this that people might take for granted. I mean the work to reverse engineer that mailer. Its the type of work that everyone understands is possible, but very few people actually execute.
However, I have to admit to being a little disappointed that the play isn't more innovative.
Most of the free play generation plays that I’m aware of really aren’t terribly, “Innovative,” or, “Complicated.” I’d say this play has maybe three levels...aside from getting the cards themselves, of course. This is probably tied for most complicated among the ten or so I’m aware of.
The most simple, of course, being: Play video poker. The expected value of your free play returns will significantly exceed your expected loss. (Depending on Casino, of course)
What’s great about DarkOz’ play here is that, monetarily speaking, it is relatively risk free compared to others.
However, this same brotherhood is quick to stab each other in the back to protect secrets that are advertised in national newspapers and will send subordinates to hog chairs at valuable seats in casinos so no other AP's can obtain value or get the other enemy, the ploppies, to leave behind valuable plays like multipliers without their knowledge.
Quote: RigondeauxIt's a matter of ethics. If zcore posted in meticulous detail about methods to beat his own casino, knowing or believing it would have no impact on him individually , but that it would cost other workers their jobs, that would be reprehensible.
I wish you were here to respond.
Don’t talk about generating free play on player’s club cards that don’t belong to you in contravention of the casino’s (generally) stated terms and conditions, guys. Don’t talk about ways to pick up free play on these cards that don’t belong to you in order to keep the offers from getting, “killed.”
Because TALKING about those things would be unethical.
Doing them, of course, ethical to a fault. Beyond dispute ethical.
Let’s try a little honesty:
I’ve been involved in plays like this before and don’t consider the plays to be particularly ethical. Here’s the thing: I don’t care if they’re ethical or not...I care if they’re illegal or not, but not if they are ethical.
I think any conversation here really needs to start with caring about one’s own interests, rather than some totally counter-intuitive notion of ethics.
This.Quote: Mission146Because TALKING about those things would be unethical.
Doing them, of course, ethical to a fault. Beyond dispute ethical.
Quote: Mission146I should also say that if maybe people hadn’t said/implied that Darkoz’ lies or exaggerates his plays; he may not have been compelled to post this. But, I haven’t privately talked to him (recently) and don’t know what his motivations are. It’s just a guess.
Thanks Mission, for your support. Your belief that this AP move is tied as most difficult (for generating mailers) comes as a major compliment from you. I know you have a lot of knowledge on the subject
There seemed to be some AP consensus that "dead" plays were okay to speak about. I have seen plenty of people discuss "dead" plays.
Now suddenly there is the possibility that dead plays can affect future plays? Well, then there simply is nothing to talk about.
This play is dead and is over 5 years old. I was actually kind of shocked at the animosity towards its disclosure. Not one of the people angry is doing a doey/dont card pulling tactic at this moment I am certain.
Quote: darkozWhat it comes down to is a "brotherhood" of AP's, many who have not met each other but feel the shared angst of discovery by the casino.
However, this same brotherhood is quick to stab each other in the back to protect secrets that are advertised in national newspapers and will send subordinates to hog chairs at valuable seats in casinos so no other AP's can obtain value or get the other enemy, the ploppies, to leave behind valuable plays like multipliers without their knowledge.
Well, now, hold on...If I’m sitting right beside someone, I feel compelled to ask them if they want to play off the multiplier if I see they are about to leave. Dumb, I know. I try not to sit beside people unless I have to.
I guess I don’t mind taking what has been left behind, but I don’t want to be complicit in it being left behind.
I think the local casino experience is different than Vegas, though. I feel bad for a lot of the people I see.
I have no ethical stance whatsoever that prevents me from extracting money from the casinos themselves by any legal means whatsoever.
Quote: MDawgQuote: MDawg
Or maybe Dark is just trying to give MDog a run for the money for the #1 thread?
You're catching up Dark! You're now #2.
Whining about being called a narcissist and putting this in back to back posts made me LOL. Well played, sir.
Quote: Mission146Well, now, hold on...If I’m sitting right beside someone, I feel compelled to ask them if they want to play off the multiplier if I see they are about to leave. Dumb, I know. I try not to sit beside people unless I have to.
I guess I don’t mind taking what has been left behind, but I don’t want to be complicit in it being left behind.
I think the local casino experience is different than Vegas, though. I feel bad for a lot of the people I see.
I have no ethical stance whatsoever that prevents me from extracting money from the casinos themselves by any legal means whatsoever.
Right! But that would mean you are not a vulture. Finding pickings left behind versus hanging around waiting for someone to leave.
It was an open statement about the community in general and not directed at any one AP
Quote: rdw4potusQuote: MDawgQuote: MDawg
Or maybe Dark is just trying to give MDog a run for the money for the #1 thread?
You're catching up Dark! You're now #2.
Whining about being called a narcissist and putting this in back to back posts made me LOL. Well played, sir.
Hey now, I worked in the Hollywood motion picture community for many years and everyone knows we are not narcissists!
Whether 'tis nobler for the AP to suffer
The slings and arrows of outraged fellow APs,
Or to take arms and share the secret Play,
And by sharing end the Play;
The Play died; the Play was already dead;
No more Card Pull; and by a Card Pull to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That AP must bear to beat the Casino
Devoutly to be wish'd. To Doey, to share;
To share: perchance to write a book of Plays.
Aye, there's the rub.
Quote: darkozRight! But that would mean you are not a vulture. Finding pickings left behind versus hanging around waiting for someone to leave.
It was an open statement about the community in general and not directed at any one AP
I do sometimes wait for people to leave, I just want them to be making a choice independent of anything I am doing.
DarkOz doth protest too much, methinks. ;)Quote: unJonDoey, or not Doey? That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler for the AP to suffer
The slings and arrows of outraged fellow APs,
Or to take arms and share the secret Play,
And by sharing end the Play;
The Play died; the Play was already dead;
No more Card Pull; and by a Card Pull to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That AP must bear to beat the Casino
Devoutly to be wish'd. To Doey, to share;
To share: perchance to write a book of Plays.
Aye, there's the rub.
Scene 1 phone booth
AP #1[over phone whispering, hand clenched over mouth]: Hey I just read in the newspaper about this fantastic AP opportunity at the plaza casino on April 15th.
AP #2[over phone]: Yeah, me too. Lets not mention this to anyone. If its our best kept secret, we can kill it.
Scene 2 dinner
AP #3: Hey I just saw on the Plaza website about a fantastic opportunity on April 15th.
Ap #4: Yeah. I am pretty certain no one visits that website. I think we have this all to ourselves if we can keep it under wraps.
Scene 3: nightclub
AP #5(screaming loudly over music): My host sent me an email about this fantastic promotion. Hopefully no one else opens their emails. we can nail it.
AP #6:(screaming loudly over music): Yeah, make certain we are there bright an early.
Scene 4: Montage everywhere
APs 1-6: Can you believe Darkoz read about the promotion in the New York Daily news 2000 miles away and had the temerity to announce it to the nation by posting it on WOV. I mean, What a dumbass!!!
Quote: rdw4potusQuote: MDawgQuote: MDawg
Or maybe Dark is just trying to give MDog a run for the money for the #1 thread?
You're catching up Dark! You're now #2.
Whining about being called a narcissist and putting this in back to back posts made me LOL. Well played, sir.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and says quack then by golly the damn thing might just be a duck lol.
Quote: unJonDoey, or not Doey? That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler for the AP to suffer
The slings and arrows of outraged fellow APs,
Or to take arms and share the secret Play,
And by sharing end the Play;
The Play died; the Play was already dead;
No more Card Pull; and by a Card Pull to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That AP must bear to beat the Casino
Devoutly to be wish'd. To Doey, to share;
To share: perchance to write a book of Plays.
Aye, there's the rub.
I cant tell you how much I love this.
Read it 3 times already
Quote: darkozI cant tell you how much I love this.
Read it 3 times already
is that like a poem or something? My brain doesn't read sentences like that. I think I pause at the wrong places.
Quote: GWAEis that like a poem or something? My brain doesn't read sentences like that. I think I pause at the wrong places.
It's a parody of Shakespeare. Hamlet's soliloquy. You can't avoid seeing it because it's the most famous one from him. Guys do it all the time.
To be.
Or not to be.
That is the question.
Whether it is nobler to suffer the slings and arrows...etc.
This is what the actual speech means, because Old English is hard to understand.
TL:DR - he's talking to himself out loud, deciding whether to kill himself to get away from all his troubles.
Quote:
To live, or to die? That is the question.
Is it nobler to suffer through all the terrible things
fate throws at you, or to fight off your troubles,
and, in doing so, end them completely?
To die, to sleep—because that’s all dying is—
and by a sleep I mean an end to all the heartache
and the thousand injuries that we are vulnerable to—
that’s an end to be wished for!
To die, to sleep. To sleep, perhaps to dream—yes,
but there’s there’s the catch. Because the kinds of
dreams that might come in that sleep of death—
after you have left behind your mortal body—
are something to make you anxious.
That’s the consideration that makes us suffer
the calamities of life for so long.
Because who would bear all the trials and tribulations of time—
the oppression of the powerful, the insults from arrogant men,
the pangs of unrequited love, the slowness of justice,
the disrespect of people in office,
and the general abuse of good people by bad—
when you could just settle all your debts
using nothing more than an unsheathed dagger?
Who would bear his burdens, and grunt
and sweat through a tiring life, if they weren’t frightened
of what might happen after death—
that undiscovered country from which no visitor returns,
which we wonder about and which makes us
prefer the troubles we know rather than fly off
to face the ones we don’t? Thus, the fear of
death makes us all cowards, and our natural
willingness to act is made weak by too much thinking.
Actions of great urgency and importance
get thrown off course because of this sort of thinking,
and they cease to be actions at all.
But wait, here is the beautiful Ophelia!
[To OPHELIA] Beauty, may you forgive all my sins in your prayers.
Quote: Mission146Are we going to get to hear the story of how this play ceased to be? Did the system change? Did you get nailed?
Yes, I will.
I had already stopped using it on my own. I never got nailed for doing it.
I did get nailed (evicted) for something else at that casino. That didnt stop me from hitting them. I had my mask and I eventually had teams to go in for me.
There are some other issues where he is misguided. I'll take that to a private message, as it is stuff that he is exposing that may still be available to others.
There were other people doing this prior to him two he witnessed doing stuff and that's how he caught on.Quote: TomGFrom what it seems, DO came up with this independently,
Quote: AxelWolfThere were other people doing this prior to him two he witnessed doing stuff and that's how he caught on.
I dont mind you suggesting things but what you just stated is absolutely not true
It was a learning process where me and a gambling friend tried new things.
All in all we self-taught ourselves over a period of 14 months.
The hustlers in that casino were so green they had no clue what we were doing.
At one point they actually tried to mimic our movements and didn't even understand we were betting opposite and ended losing a ton of cash.
You can make a lot of claims but considering I didnt even meet you for the first time until 2018, its hard for me to believe you would even make such a false statement
The infamous "gambling friend" as I recall - right?Quote: darkozIt was a learning process where me and a gambling friend tried new things.
Are you saying you never said something along those lines way back when in some copasatay? If Not, I retract that statement and apologize, and I will leave it at that.Quote: darkozI dont mind you suggesting things but what you just stated is absolutely not true
It was a learning process where me and a gambling friend tried new things.
All in all we self-taught ourselves over a period of 14 months.
The hustlers in that casino were so green they had no clue what we were doing.
At one point they actually tried to mimic our movements and didn't even understand we were betting opposite and ended losing a ton of cash.
You can make a lot of claims but considering I didnt even meet you for the first time until 2018, its hard for me to believe you would even make such a false statement
It doesn't matter either way, how, what ,when why. If your out there making money via AP I commend you. I have no doubt your doing well. I think your a good guy. I just wish you would realize the negative affect TMI has on this stuff.
Quote: PuckerbuttThe infamous "gambling friend" as I recall - right?
Well I dont want to doxx him.
He isnt even a member of this forum.
His name will be changed in the book
Quote: AxelWolfAre you saying you never said something along those lines way back when in some copasatay? If Not, I retract that statement and apologize, and I will leave it at that.
It doesn't matter either way, how, what ,when why. If your out there making money via AP I commend you. I have no doubt your doing well. I think your a good guy. I just wish you would realize the negative affect TMI has on this stuff.
It was all a period of self-learning.
I had been a ploppie many years earlier trying stupid stuff like martingales etc so I was aware of most gambling game rules. How to play Craps, etc.
The ideas for AP however came gradually as I realized there was serious money to be made
And what is a Copasatay?
capacity?Quote: darkozAnd what is a Copasatay?
Correct.Quote: HugoSlaviacapacity?
Quote: HugoSlaviacapacity?
Oh, lol.
I was thinking it was me sitting inside some type of copacabana
I could have just as easily accidentally put constipation.Quote: darkozOh, lol.
I was thinking it was me sitting inside some type of copacabana
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/on-advantage-play-and-tribalism-part-1/
Quote: darkozIf you are this frightened of a forum post wait till the book comes out.
I'm late to this thread. Looking forward to finishing reading. I gotta say, this line cracked me up. You've got an interesting sense of humor. Very colorful poster. As well as controversial. "Wait til the book comes out", you're funny.
Quote: bobbartopI'm late to this thread. Looking forward to finishing reading. I gotta say, this line cracked me up. You've got an interesting sense of humor. Very colorful poster. As well as controversial. "Wait til the book comes out", you're funny.
Well, I just finished. I am REALLY a slow reader. This is a helluva thread. Dark Oz, I like you, but I have to agree with the MAJORITY, I think you need to stfu about this kinda stuff. I am sure a guy with your smarts can write about interesting stuff that is not so revealing but still entertaining.
And about the book, at first I thought you were just kidding. Now not so sure. Hey Dark Oz, NO BOOK! lol That's my 2-cents.
You've already proved that you are smart, Dark Oz. People recognize it. Sometimes it's smarter to appear not-so-smart. Like at the poker table.
Good night. This thread made me sleepy.
Quote: bobbartopWell, I just finished. I am REALLY a slow reader. This is a helluva thread. Dark Oz, I like you, but I have to agree with the MAJORITY, I think you need to stfu about this kinda stuff. I am sure a guy with your smarts can write about interesting stuff that is not so revealing but still entertaining.
And about the book, at first I thought you were just kidding. Now not so sure. Hey Dark Oz, NO BOOK! lol That's my 2-cents.
You've already proved that you are smart, Dark Oz. People recognize it. Sometimes it's smarter to appear not-so-smart. Like at the poker table.
Good night. This thread made me sleepy.
Yes, there is a book I finished writing it 2 years ago.
But I have not begun the process of looking for a publisher because there are a few secrets in there I am not certain I wish to divulge yet.
That said, the book is less a discussion of how to AP and more a memoir of how I went from homeless to leading the most feared AP team on the East Coast.
Its more the about the route of self-discovery. The AP plays come in more in explanation of how I rose up (cant just say "and then I figured out how to do something I cant divulge, or even how I learned about, you just gotta believe me here" on 20 different pages)
At any rate, the book is a possibility but I am not actively pursuing it just yet
Quote: Mission146Here's the first of a loosely related series of articles, the fourth article of this series will have me talking to Darkoz about what he has already revealed about this play as well as a number of other things not directly related (no specific information) to plays:
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/on-advantage-play-and-tribalism-part-1/
Great writeup, and some good points I hadn't thought of. Advantage Play can be a profession, but it's more likely to be a hobby. Getting signup bonuses, using coupons, et cetera. There are people who earn $100,000 per year using hi-lo in blackjack. And anyone who visits a casino once every few months can use the same thing to earn $1,000 per year. It can also be an interest, rather than an activity. There are very few professional football players, there are millions of football fans. Millions of people read Bringing Down the House and saw the movie without become an Advantage Player.
Pretty much anything we do in life can be a competition (like eating chicken nuggets). But we get to decide if we are going to compete against others, or with others.
Quote: TomGGreat writeup, and some good points I hadn't thought of. Advantage Play can be a profession, but it's more likely to be a hobby. Getting signup bonuses, using coupons, et cetera. There are people who earn $100,000 per year using hi-lo in blackjack. And anyone who visits a casino once every few months can use the same thing to earn $1,000 per year. It can also be an interest, rather than an activity. There are very few professional football players, there are millions of football fans. Millions of people read Bringing Down the House and saw the movie without become an Advantage Player.
Pretty much anything we do in life can be a competition (like eating chicken nuggets). But we get to decide if we are going to compete against others, or with others.
Thanks for the compliment! I agree with that entire post.
Imposing limits on starting new threads because of posting about gambling?
What's this? I struggle to find words here.
Something's very wrong with the perspective here.
That is all
Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias
Quote: rawtuffDafook is wrong with this forum lately? Closing threads about AP plays?
Imposing limits on starting new threads because of posting about gambling?
What's this? I struggle to find words here.
Something's very wrong with the perspective here.
We were told no political discussions , keep it to gambling related topics.
Now it’s , let’s have gambling discussions, but not about strategic methods to beat the casino.
Pretty soon we’ll only be allowed to share our favorite roullete numbers.
I appreciate the opposite rumblings now that the vocal minority is gone.
As the AP community proudly attests to, they make up approximately 1 percent of the gambling population (probably less than that)
It is reasonable to assume they made up less than 1 percent of the forum members.
15 people vocally did their mass Exodus thru posting in Rigondeaux leave WOV thread
15 out of 10,000 members sounds about right
I do notice the rest of the forum posts the last 2 weeks are from more and more diverse members. Usually in a situation like this, the horror turns into the best thing to happen
Quote: darkozA very vocal minority of members rumbled loudly.
I appreciate the opposite rumblings now that the vocal minority is gone.
As the AP community proudly attests to, they make up approximately 1 percent of the gambling population (probably less than that)
It is reasonable to assume they made up less than 1 percent of the forum members.
15 people vocally did their mass Exodus thru posting in Rigondeaux leave WOV thread
15 out of 10,000 members sounds about right
I do notice the rest of the forum posts the last 2 weeks are from more and more diverse members. Usually in a situation like this, the horror turns into the best thing to happen
Come on darkoz, you know of the members who participate frequently, far more than 1% are APs.
Anyway, I gained some insight this weekend. I have permission from Wizard and Pink to post this. I met them to see if a casino was erasing multipliers, as stated in the 'stealing value' thread. Mike and I had been playing our usual -EV Pai Gow Tiles until Pink arrived. The 'sting' didn't work. But after, Pink took me around the casino showing me what to look for in a whole bunch of machines. It wasn't mentioned up front, but I was basically going to be giving Pink a 'free ride' if I happened to win, and if I lost, I lost. So we went to some Ultimate X machines, and she would show me the left over multipliers. I'd ask her the EV. She'd say "$3", or $6". What I found out was that there were a lot more than I'd thought there would be, but at a lower $ EV than I thought as well. There were other plays she showed me, a few I haven't read about before, so of course I won't mention them here. One 'good' play resulted in a win of $400 or so. The others basically ended up around break even, so we were up around $400 for the hour. I think the expected EV ( I wasn't adding it up as we went along, so it was from recollection) was around +$150. Not bad for around an hour of walking around a casino. I gave Pink $200 and kept $200.
But my point is this. If it was my livelihood, losing any one of these many opportunities would hurt, some of course more than others. Frankly, I can't imagine a casino operator NOT scouring forums like this. It certainly is possible that the erasing multipliers was an idea borne out of someone reading an Ultimate X thread.
I really appreciate the window into the AP world Pink (and previously AxelWolf) have let me look through. It would not be a life for me, but I can see how with a team and skills honed and eyes wide open it can be a decent living for someone.
I now see the anger aimed at DarkOz a little more clearly. But I still defend his right to make his posts. I just hope he is more considerate of others. Even if he disagrees on the negative value to the "AP world" of a post, try and see it from the other side.
I love Vegas. Back in Buffalo.....
Quote: SOOPOOCome on darkoz, you know of the members who participate frequently, far more than 1% are APs.
Anyway, I gained some insight this weekend. I have permission from Wizard and Pink to post this. I met them to see if a casino was erasing multipliers, as stated in the 'stealing value' thread. Mike and I had been playing our usual -EV Pai Gow Tiles until Pink arrived. The 'sting' didn't work. But after, Pink took me around the casino showing me what to look for in a whole bunch of machines. It wasn't mentioned up front, but I was basically going to be giving Pink a 'free ride' if I happened to win, and if I lost, I lost. So we went to some Ultimate X machines, and she would show me the left over multipliers. I'd ask her the EV. She'd say "$3", or $6". What I found out was that there were a lot more than I'd thought there would be, but at a lower $ EV than I thought as well. There were other plays she showed me, a few I haven't read about before, so of course I won't mention them here. One 'good' play resulted in a win of $400 or so. The others basically ended up around break even, so we were up around $400 for the hour. I think the expected EV ( I wasn't adding it up as we went along, so it was from recollection) was around +$150. Not bad for around an hour of walking around a casino. I gave Pink $200 and kept $200.
But my point is this. If it was my livelihood, losing any one of these many opportunities would hurt, some of course more than others. Frankly, I can't imagine a casino operator NOT scouring forums like this. It certainly is possible that the erasing multipliers was an idea borne out of someone reading an Ultimate X thread.
I really appreciate the window into the AP world Pink (and previously AxelWolf) have let me look through. It would not be a life for me, but I can see how with a team and skills honed and eyes wide open it can be a decent living for someone.
I now see the anger aimed at DarkOz a little more clearly. But I still defend his right to make his posts. I just hope he is more considerate of others. Even if he disagrees on the negative value to the "AP world" of a post, try and see it from the other side.
I love Vegas. Back in Buffalo.....
The reason casino operators do not scour forums like this is because it isn't their job.
When a casino employee finishes work, he doesn't think about extra work like scouring gambling forums. He thinks about what he is going to have for dinner or his upcoming vacation
Another problem is that the employees of casinos are very compartmentalized. Table games people don't know the slots department. Marketing doesn't understand table games or how slots work. Security and surveillance don't even understand how slots games work
Most of the AP plays are actually old but still doable. Why is that? Because casino staff aren't motivated to do extra work to understand AP
Quote: darkoz
Another problem is that the employees of casinos are very compartmentalized. Table games people don't know the slots department. Marketing doesn't understand table games or how slots work. Security and surveillance don't even understand how slots games work
I think that there are at least two active members on here that would prove that wrong.
Quote: DRichI think that there are at least two active members on here that would prove that wrong.
If they can correctly pm me exactly what the APs who left were afraid of then I will be convinced
I won't divulge their answers. Just whether I'm satisfied they figured out the ramifications
Quote: darkozIf they can correctly pm me exactly what the APs who left were afraid of then I will be convinced
I won't divulge their answers. Just whether I'm satisfied they figured out the ramifications
My comment has nothing to do with those that left. My point was there are casino people here that understand AP, slots, and table games.
