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darkoz
darkoz
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OnceDearChesterDogHugoSlaviaMintybobbartopblackjacklad
January 7th, 2020 at 3:48:53 PM permalink
With all the discussion about people beating Baccarat through sheer luck and big bets, its probably the right moment to expose the NY AP move I baited the forum with here https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/25612-a-ny-ap-move/ a few years ago.

I am quite certain it is dead although I have not gone back to it in 5 years. I have no interest although it was quite lucrative. I moved to easier plays (although not necessarily as lucrative).

The NYS law involved required all wagers winning or losing to be fed thru the state lotteries central server.

https://www.gaming.ny.gov/gaming/index.php?ID=0

Read the 2nd paragraph at that link for clarification.

VLT's would send the info thru the server and it would return with payout info.

The central server was and I believe still is located in Albany. The wager outcome required about 2.5 seconds to reach Albany and back to casinos in at least the NYC area. Some casinos closer may have had a shorter lag time.

Push a button on the slot machine and instantly the information is sent. By the time the info reached Albany and back your spin was still in action (still noticeable on certain slots as it would "pause" if you won. I would always know if a spin was a winner before the reels stopped if it glitched) BUT THAT WAS NOT THE MOVE)

Not much you could do at a slot machine even armed with that info.

HOWEVER, Electronic table games with physical components i.e. roulette or Craps or Sic Bo were different. The winning and losing info could not be sent to the central server until the actual game was completed. The roulette ball would have to land in its pocket, the dice landed on its sides without a chance of flipping over in order for the winning info to be sent on its round trip to Albany.

I had determined through months of testing that Resorts World in particular rewarded Winning players heavily. They didn't give a crap about losing players (think of the scene in "Casino" when DeNiro tricks the winning high roller back to his operation)

The NY AP move I mostly did at Resorts World and combined the Doey/Dont system at Electronic Craps to simulate large player wins (approximately $8-9,000) on a given players card by pulling the card during the 2.5 second delay.

This would generate large mailers 2 months later. So the labor and investment was for profit to come at a later time.

Here is how it worked

2 man system

Player A with players card Y made $30 pass/come bets

Player B with players card Z made $30 Dont pass/Dont come bets

Generally player A also made a $1 bet on boxcars so no matter the outcome we never lost more than fifty cents per card per game.

The E-Craps was a 3x-4x-5x game and we would take opposing odds as well.

The object was not massive ADT but massive wins so at $210 per settled point ($30 plus $180 odds win) it generally took about 3 hours to show a win of $9,000. At fifty cents per card per game in general the cost to show this was $100 per card or $200 for a session with 2 cards completed.

It probably would have only taken an hour if we could have bet 3 or more simultaneous points but once we had established 2 points then we had to wait for a resolution. That really slowed us down.

The reason for the restriction was due to NYS racino jackpot limits. Winning $600 or more would trigger a taxable jackpot requiring ID to be shown. The ID aspect wasnt the big deal. But having to pay taxes on wins that YOU ACTUALLY WEREN'T BENEFITING FROM was NOT the way to go.

So 2 points only to avoid paying taxes on non-existent wins.

Both players had to keep their eyes attuned to the pips combinations of the dice. Each game was approximately 30 seconds aparr so you had to have full concentration for 3 hours with no letup.

Player A had it somewhat easier. He had to watch only for the pips to add up to seven (pass line loses on seven so he pulled his card out so the loss is not recorded. Wins recorded only so he left it in on any other pip pip combination.)

(We ignored one round wins and losses btw. $30 up or down we didn't waste time pulling. It equalled out in general)

Player A took on the added responsibility of writing down both sides wins (or losses if we made a mistake and failed to pull the card on time).

Thats because Player B had the real.headache. Player B had to focus on constantly changing pip combinations exacerbated by the 2 points established limit.

For ex. if the point was 4 and 9, Player B had to keep focused on pip adding up only to 4 or 9 and be ready to pull with a 2.5 second window.

Now if the 9 rolled, he only had to keep the 4 in his head, but after another come bet if the new 2nd point was 6, now he had to concentrate on the pips adding up to 4 or 6. The contantly changing pip addition was a real brain drain.

Also, each player had to keep track of the points showing on the screen of his players card. The points would rise invisibly until the card was removed and reinserted.

Lets say the players card had 422 points. If you pulled the card and replaced it and the reader still showed 422 points then you had successfully removed the card on time. If the points had risen, you were too late and Player A had to record your losses (which was a setback of agony doing this operation)

Again, we didn't pull for one roll decisions so you also had to keep track of how many of those had passed since reinserting the card.

If 3 Craps had just rolled then the card points would rise by 3 (it was $30 point conveniently at that time)

Card pulled, reinserted, points risen by 3? Did you pull too late or had there been 3 Craps/7/11 rolls since you pulled. Sometimes it took up to 20 minutes for a point decision so you were constantly keeping the rolls of the last ten or twenty minutes on your mind

You had to be on the ball at ALL TIMES to not mess up this move

When I tell you I never finished a session without teary eyes and a migraine I am not exaggerating.

2.5 seconds seemed like an eternity when you had pulled and were waiting for the game conclusion to determine if you were successful (kind of felt like the slomo from $6 million dollar man) BUT when you were exhausted and your concentration level was flagging suddenly those 2.5 seconds zapped by in a flash and you realized you had just had a setback. Usually just when you were so exhausted you wanted desperately to end it.

And so eventually I moved on to easier (although less lucrative moves)

So how much did $200 and 3 hours get you?

Here is a sample of 2 calendars from the time period same session





Those calendars would last for 2 months so basically $200 and 3 hours got you nearly $24,000 in freeplay

The reason one calender is smaller was due to variance. Sometimes you just could not get one side to win enough and we would get exhausted and give up lol.

(Those calendars are old BTW. Thats 2014 March calendars)

Anyway, fhere you have it.

Next post I discuss how the NY AP move also worked with a notorious Blackjack play that someone asked about in a different thread
Last edited by: darkoz on Jan 7, 2020
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DRich
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January 7th, 2020 at 4:14:17 PM permalink
There are still some old player tracking systems out there where card pulling still works.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
ksdjdj
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January 7th, 2020 at 4:38:19 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz


(snip)Player A had it somewhat easier. He had to watch only for the pips to add up to seven (pass line loses on seven so he pulled his card out so the loss is not recorded. Wins recorded only so he left it in on any other pip pip combination.) (snip)

(snip) Thats because Player B had the real.headache. Player B had to focus on constantly changing pip combinations exacerbated by the 2 points established limit. (snip)


I know why you originally did it this way, but do you think the "cost of errors reduction" would have made it better just to bet on what "Player A was doing"? (or did you work out that it was better doing it this way, even with the "errors").
beachbumbabs
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RSAxelWolfmcallister3200OnceDearRomesaceofspades
January 7th, 2020 at 4:43:54 PM permalink
What possible reason do you have for putting this out there? How can you claim to know a play is dead everywhere, or that the particular electronic issue you depended on is not in use elsewhere? You cover, what, maybe 10% of US casinos at most?

SMH.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
darkoz
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HugoSlavia
January 7th, 2020 at 4:52:24 PM permalink
Complaints about people who post mathematically ridiculous ways of beating casinos

Complaints about people who post mathematically sound methods of beating casinos

We should rename this forum the Wizard of Odd
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sodawater
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darkoz
January 7th, 2020 at 5:11:55 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

What possible reason do you have for putting this out there? How can you claim to know a play is dead everywhere, or that the particular electronic issue you depended on is not in use elsewhere? You cover, what, maybe 10% of US casinos at most?

SMH.



Pulling out player cards mid-game is not exactly the best-kept secret...what are you talking about? There is nothing new here except there's a little more lag.
randomperson
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:05:14 PM permalink
This is a very smart well thought out intelligent play and shows a lot of deep thought on your part to put all the pieces together. There was probably a ton of work in the background leading up to this that people might take for granted. I mean the work to reverse engineer that mailer. Its the type of work that everyone understands is possible, but very few people actually execute.

However, I have to admit to being a little disappointed that the play isn't more innovative.
darkoz
darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:33:30 PM permalink
Quote: randomperson

This is a very smart well thought out intelligent play and shows a lot of deep thought on your part to put all the pieces together. There was probably a ton of work in the background leading up to this that people might take for granted. I mean the work to reverse engineer that mailer. Its the type of work that everyone understands is possible, but very few people actually execute.

However, I have to admit to being a little disappointed that the play isn't more innovative.



Thank you.

Thats a correct assumption. It takes a lot of testing and research to determine how to attack a play like that.

As for the innovation, the most amazing magic tricks generally would leave one disappointed in how they were executed
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GWAE
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:50:21 PM permalink
So if they are rewarding you for winning. Why not just do the system without pulling cards, running twice as much coin in and having the same final win total. It would cost an extra 200 to do double the bets but less headache.
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DRich
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:53:54 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

So if they are rewarding you for winning. Why not just do the system without pulling cards, running twice as much coin in and having the same final win total. It would cost an extra 200 to do double the bets but less headache.



Because if he left his card in it would count his losses too. Pulling the card on losses make it seem like you are not losing so the win is bigger and his promo is therefore bigger.
Living longer does not always infer +EV

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