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darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 3:48:53 PM permalink
With all the discussion about people beating Baccarat through sheer luck and big bets, its probably the right moment to expose the NY AP move I baited the forum with here https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/25612-a-ny-ap-move/ a few years ago.

I am quite certain it is dead although I have not gone back to it in 5 years. I have no interest although it was quite lucrative. I moved to easier plays (although not necessarily as lucrative).

The NYS law involved required all wagers winning or losing to be fed thru the state lotteries central server.

https://www.gaming.ny.gov/gaming/index.php?ID=0

Read the 2nd paragraph at that link for clarification.

VLT's would send the info thru the server and it would return with payout info.

The central server was and I believe still is located in Albany. The wager outcome required about 2.5 seconds to reach Albany and back to casinos in at least the NYC area. Some casinos closer may have had a shorter lag time.

Push a button on the slot machine and instantly the information is sent. By the time the info reached Albany and back your spin was still in action (still noticeable on certain slots as it would "pause" if you won. I would always know if a spin was a winner before the reels stopped if it glitched) BUT THAT WAS NOT THE MOVE)

Not much you could do at a slot machine even armed with that info.

HOWEVER, Electronic table games with physical components i.e. roulette or Craps or Sic Bo were different. The winning and losing info could not be sent to the central server until the actual game was completed. The roulette ball would have to land in its pocket, the dice landed on its sides without a chance of flipping over in order for the winning info to be sent on its round trip to Albany.

I had determined through months of testing that Resorts World in particular rewarded Winning players heavily. They didn't give a crap about losing players (think of the scene in "Casino" when DeNiro tricks the winning high roller back to his operation)

The NY AP move I mostly did at Resorts World and combined the Doey/Dont system at Electronic Craps to simulate large player wins (approximately $8-9,000) on a given players card by pulling the card during the 2.5 second delay.

This would generate large mailers 2 months later. So the labor and investment was for profit to come at a later time.

Here is how it worked

2 man system

Player A with players card Y made $30 pass/come bets

Player B with players card Z made $30 Dont pass/Dont come bets

Generally player A also made a $1 bet on boxcars so no matter the outcome we never lost more than fifty cents per card per game.

The E-Craps was a 3x-4x-5x game and we would take opposing odds as well.

The object was not massive ADT but massive wins so at $210 per settled point ($30 plus $180 odds win) it generally took about 3 hours to show a win of $9,000. At fifty cents per card per game in general the cost to show this was $100 per card or $200 for a session with 2 cards completed.

It probably would have only taken an hour if we could have bet 3 or more simultaneous points but once we had established 2 points then we had to wait for a resolution. That really slowed us down.

The reason for the restriction was due to NYS racino jackpot limits. Winning $600 or more would trigger a taxable jackpot requiring ID to be shown. The ID aspect wasnt the big deal. But having to pay taxes on wins that YOU ACTUALLY WEREN'T BENEFITING FROM was NOT the way to go.

So 2 points only to avoid paying taxes on non-existent wins.

Both players had to keep their eyes attuned to the pips combinations of the dice. Each game was approximately 30 seconds aparr so you had to have full concentration for 3 hours with no letup.

Player A had it somewhat easier. He had to watch only for the pips to add up to seven (pass line loses on seven so he pulled his card out so the loss is not recorded. Wins recorded only so he left it in on any other pip pip combination.)

(We ignored one round wins and losses btw. $30 up or down we didn't waste time pulling. It equalled out in general)

Player A took on the added responsibility of writing down both sides wins (or losses if we made a mistake and failed to pull the card on time).

Thats because Player B had the real.headache. Player B had to focus on constantly changing pip combinations exacerbated by the 2 points established limit.

For ex. if the point was 4 and 9, Player B had to keep focused on pip adding up only to 4 or 9 and be ready to pull with a 2.5 second window.

Now if the 9 rolled, he only had to keep the 4 in his head, but after another come bet if the new 2nd point was 6, now he had to concentrate on the pips adding up to 4 or 6. The contantly changing pip addition was a real brain drain.

Also, each player had to keep track of the points showing on the screen of his players card. The points would rise invisibly until the card was removed and reinserted.

Lets say the players card had 422 points. If you pulled the card and replaced it and the reader still showed 422 points then you had successfully removed the card on time. If the points had risen, you were too late and Player A had to record your losses (which was a setback of agony doing this operation)

Again, we didn't pull for one roll decisions so you also had to keep track of how many of those had passed since reinserting the card.

If 3 Craps had just rolled then the card points would rise by 3 (it was $30 point conveniently at that time)

Card pulled, reinserted, points risen by 3? Did you pull too late or had there been 3 Craps/7/11 rolls since you pulled. Sometimes it took up to 20 minutes for a point decision so you were constantly keeping the rolls of the last ten or twenty minutes on your mind

You had to be on the ball at ALL TIMES to not mess up this move

When I tell you I never finished a session without teary eyes and a migraine I am not exaggerating.

2.5 seconds seemed like an eternity when you had pulled and were waiting for the game conclusion to determine if you were successful (kind of felt like the slomo from $6 million dollar man) BUT when you were exhausted and your concentration level was flagging suddenly those 2.5 seconds zapped by in a flash and you realized you had just had a setback. Usually just when you were so exhausted you wanted desperately to end it.

And so eventually I moved on to easier (although less lucrative moves)

So how much did $200 and 3 hours get you?

Here is a sample of 2 calendars from the time period same session





Those calendars would last for 2 months so basically $200 and 3 hours got you nearly $24,000 in freeplay

The reason one calender is smaller was due to variance. Sometimes you just could not get one side to win enough and we would get exhausted and give up lol.

(Those calendars are old BTW. Thats 2014 March calendars)

Anyway, fhere you have it.

Next post I discuss how the NY AP move also worked with a notorious Blackjack play that someone asked about in a different thread
Last edited by: darkoz on Jan 7, 2020
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DRich
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January 7th, 2020 at 4:14:17 PM permalink
There are still some old player tracking systems out there where card pulling still works.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
ksdjdj
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January 7th, 2020 at 4:38:19 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz


(snip)Player A had it somewhat easier. He had to watch only for the pips to add up to seven (pass line loses on seven so he pulled his card out so the loss is not recorded. Wins recorded only so he left it in on any other pip pip combination.) (snip)

(snip) Thats because Player B had the real.headache. Player B had to focus on constantly changing pip combinations exacerbated by the 2 points established limit. (snip)


I know why you originally did it this way, but do you think the "cost of errors reduction" would have made it better just to bet on what "Player A was doing"? (or did you work out that it was better doing it this way, even with the "errors").
beachbumbabs
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January 7th, 2020 at 4:43:54 PM permalink
What possible reason do you have for putting this out there? How can you claim to know a play is dead everywhere, or that the particular electronic issue you depended on is not in use elsewhere? You cover, what, maybe 10% of US casinos at most?

SMH.
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darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 4:52:24 PM permalink
Complaints about people who post mathematically ridiculous ways of beating casinos

Complaints about people who post mathematically sound methods of beating casinos

We should rename this forum the Wizard of Odd
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sodawater
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January 7th, 2020 at 5:11:55 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

What possible reason do you have for putting this out there? How can you claim to know a play is dead everywhere, or that the particular electronic issue you depended on is not in use elsewhere? You cover, what, maybe 10% of US casinos at most?

SMH.



Pulling out player cards mid-game is not exactly the best-kept secret...what are you talking about? There is nothing new here except there's a little more lag.
randomperson
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:05:14 PM permalink
This is a very smart well thought out intelligent play and shows a lot of deep thought on your part to put all the pieces together. There was probably a ton of work in the background leading up to this that people might take for granted. I mean the work to reverse engineer that mailer. Its the type of work that everyone understands is possible, but very few people actually execute.

However, I have to admit to being a little disappointed that the play isn't more innovative.
darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:33:30 PM permalink
Quote: randomperson

This is a very smart well thought out intelligent play and shows a lot of deep thought on your part to put all the pieces together. There was probably a ton of work in the background leading up to this that people might take for granted. I mean the work to reverse engineer that mailer. Its the type of work that everyone understands is possible, but very few people actually execute.

However, I have to admit to being a little disappointed that the play isn't more innovative.



Thank you.

Thats a correct assumption. It takes a lot of testing and research to determine how to attack a play like that.

As for the innovation, the most amazing magic tricks generally would leave one disappointed in how they were executed
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GWAE
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:50:21 PM permalink
So if they are rewarding you for winning. Why not just do the system without pulling cards, running twice as much coin in and having the same final win total. It would cost an extra 200 to do double the bets but less headache.
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DRich
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January 7th, 2020 at 7:53:54 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

So if they are rewarding you for winning. Why not just do the system without pulling cards, running twice as much coin in and having the same final win total. It would cost an extra 200 to do double the bets but less headache.



Because if he left his card in it would count his losses too. Pulling the card on losses make it seem like you are not losing so the win is bigger and his promo is therefore bigger.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Zcore13
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January 7th, 2020 at 9:05:34 PM permalink
Good post, well written and nicely executed.

Not sure why some people think it's a crime to reveal plays. Everyone is allowed to post anything they want (within the rules). There's no rule about posting AP insider info. I've posted Casino Management info. DRich has posted his knowledge. Mission has written articles about active slot plays. That's what we are here for. Discussion.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Rigondeaux
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January 7th, 2020 at 9:23:08 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

There's no rule about posting AP insider info.



No. But there should be. Messing with someone's bottom line Is a lot worse than a personal insult.

If this is allowed I think I'm done here.
darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:07:10 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

No. But there should be. Messing with someone's bottom line Is a lot worse than a personal insult.

If this is allowed I think I'm done here.



Are you saying you are personally doing card removal in tandem with doey/dont utilizing specific wagering to trigger mailers from casinos that have win/loss parameters in your state?

Or are you done here because you believe there may be some unidentified souls out there doing it?
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beachbumbabs
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:23:13 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Are you saying you are personally doing card removal in tandem with doey/dont utilizing specific wagering to trigger mailers from casinos that have win/loss parameters in your state?

Or are you done here because you believe there may be some unidentified souls out there doing it?



Why do you keep digging the hole deeper?

You are screwing with many people's income here. You don't have any idea what the 342 different casino jurisdictions in this country do behind the scenes, how each one is programmed, where the flaws are, what software they run on, and which ones might relate to your particular weakness of 5 years ago.

Just stop. Really.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:23:25 PM permalink
NYS has a singular and unique central server system according to this article (with only Washington state having anything remotely like it yet still different)

https://ggbmagazine.com/article/the-vlt-bounce/

So not sure who these mystery APs are doing secret card pulling in states with completely different central server systems

AND not to mention that the move is quite casino system reliant. If your casino doesn't care about wins and losses the move is pointless.

I suspect no one here even knows anyone doing it the way I described.
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mcallister3200
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:25:02 PM permalink
Egoís gonna do what they do.
darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:32:01 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Why do you keep digging the hole deeper?

You are screwing with many people's income here. You don't have any idea what the 342 different casino jurisdictions in this country do behind the scenes, how each one is programmed, where the flaws are, what software they run on, and which ones might relate to your particular weakness of 5 years ago.

Just stop. Really.



If you are this frightened of a forum post wait till the book comes out.

Or are you putting publishing restrictions on as well?
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Rigondeaux
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:37:21 PM permalink
None of the above. I think it's a disingenuous question anyway.

Many professions have ethics.

One of the ethics of AP, like magic, is to keep things quiet. If too much is shared too widely, the profession is boned.

Who can you tell? Well we've all at least partly learned from others. And I myself will give plenty of advice to strangers in public here on this forum about sports.

The boundaries are fuzzy.

But just openly publicizing details of plays is way, way out of bounds. That much is obvious.

You've said things that can hurt someone's livelihood, revealing progressively more, like a child testing a teacher or parent. I guess it gives you some ego rush. Idk.

I'm not the smartest guy on earth. But I'm not dumb enough to participate in an enterprise which allows someone to mess with my livelihood so he can feel like a big shot online.

I'll be back if/when darkoz is gone.

Anyone who makes money gambling should follow suit.

See you guys at the next meet up.
darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:48:23 PM permalink
Truly sorry to see you go.

Anyway, make sure you dont read casinocitytimes.

They put out an article about card pulling in 2011.

Dont want it to disturb you.

http://robison.casinocitytimes.com/article/pulling-a-players-club-card-59639
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beachbumbabs
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January 7th, 2020 at 10:49:13 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

If you are this frightened of a forum post wait till the book comes out.

Or are you putting publishing restrictions on as well?



It's not possible you don't get it. I'm done trying to get thru to you. There's no one there.
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tyler498
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January 7th, 2020 at 11:14:30 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

NYS has a singular and unique central server system according to this article (with only Washington state having anything remotely like it yet still different)

https://ggbmagazine.com/article/the-vlt-bounce/

So not sure who these mystery APs are doing secret card pulling in states with completely different central server systems

AND not to mention that the move is quite casino system reliant. If your casino doesn't care about wins and losses the move is pointless.

I suspect no one here even knows anyone doing it the way I described.



I have read the previous thread in 2016, and quite enjoyed it. I actually strongly disagreed with people who were outright just criticizing the post because it even mentioned the existence of an AP play!
Your intention was probably to show off (I understand, believe me, I told so many women about AP plays to look smart because they were cute) but the post itself I felt was giving just enough information about a play you were not using anymore for other APs to maybe figure it out, without saying so much that it would burn the play. I think if other APs would try to carefully position hints about plays they do NOT use anymore as fruits high enough for only the most AP minded people to get the hint, without amateurs or casino personnel figuring it out, that would add high value to this forum. Just hints here and there help people think more like an AP and get the mindset required to discover more plays.

Now when it comes to this post, I have to side with BBB and the others. I understand the urge to show off, but a post so detailed can only hurt the community, it hurts the camaraderie. you cannot completely grasp the consequences. As BBB is trying to explain to you, a casino exec might read your post and have an Aha! moment about a hole in some other play you never heard about, in a different jurisdiction, and affect other players in ways you did not anticipate.

Older post is debatable, might help some APs and might help the casinos. This post is most definitely negative EV for the AP community as a whole. So if you have a sense of camaraderie within the AP community, still time to edit the OP.. maybe not everybody has seen it yet...
darkoz
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January 7th, 2020 at 11:35:25 PM permalink
Quote: tyler498

I have read the previous thread in 2016, and quite enjoyed it. I actually strongly disagreed with people who were outright just criticizing the post because it even mentioned the existence of an AP play!
Your intention was probably to show off (I understand, believe me, I told so many women about AP plays to look smart because they were cute) but the post itself I felt was giving just enough information about a play you were not using anymore for other APs to maybe figure it out, without saying so much that it would burn the play. I think if other APs would try to carefully position hints about plays they do NOT use anymore as fruits high enough for only the most AP minded people to get the hint, without amateurs or casino personnel figuring it out, that would add high value to this forum. Just hints here and there help people think more like an AP and get the mindset required to discover more plays.

Now when it comes to this post, I have to side with BBB and the others. I understand the urge to show off, but a post so detailed can only hurt the community, it hurts the camaraderie. you cannot completely grasp the consequences. As BBB is trying to explain to you, a casino exec might read your post and have an Aha! moment about a hole in some other play you never heard about, in a different jurisdiction, and affect other players in ways you did not anticipate.

Older post is debatable, might help some APs and might help the casinos. This post is most definitely negative EV for the AP community as a whole. So if you have a sense of camaraderie within the AP community, still time to edit the OP.. maybe not everybody has seen it yet...



Very logical and I appreciate your concern.

I actually am aware of quite a few systems spread across multiple states so nah, I am pretty certain these potential people are not doing what I described.

HOWEVER, that said, here is the real situation/significance.

How you get those mailers is not the issue. I know of several ways to do it.

Its keeping those mailers (i.e, keeping the casinos from turning off the offers once you begin using them)

Trust me, casinos know the offers in their own system. Just stating offers exist is not giving away an AP play, (Hint, most casinos have verbiage that usage of the offers without significant play will void them. Gee, why did a bunch of clueless casino marketers put that in there????).

The real AP is keeping the offers. And that I havent nor plan to divulge so no one really needs to worry.

But getting the offers, lol, there six ways to sunday to do that
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tyler498
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January 8th, 2020 at 12:27:59 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Very logical and I appreciate your concern.

I actually am aware of quite a few systems spread across multiple states so nah, I am pretty certain these potential people are not doing what I described.

HOWEVER, that said, here is the real situation/significance.

How you get those mailers is not the issue. I know of several ways to do it.

Its keeping those mailers (i.e, keeping the casinos from turning off the offers once you begin using them)

Trust me, casinos know the offers in their own system. Just stating offers exist is not giving away an AP play, (Hint, most casinos have verbiage that usage of the offers without significant play will void them. Gee, why did a bunch of clueless casino marketers put that in there????).

The real AP is keeping the offers. And that I haven't nor plan to divulge so no one really needs to worry.

But getting the offers, lol, there six ways to sunday to do that



Fair enough. And I agree with you that keeping the mailers coming in requires skills. I disagree that:
"The real AP is keeping the offers. And that I haven't nor plan to divulge so no one really needs to worry."
The skill to keep the play alive comes with experience and is shared with other AP plays as well. I don't believe there is a huge part that is specific to this play only (but I'm just guessing here). 2 AP might know of a given play, one is skilled and executes it successfully, one isn't and fails. The real play is still the same, the real play is what you are describing in the post.
And wouldn't you agree that the post might make it harder to keep the offers coming?
At the risk of exaggerating, it might also prevent new opportunities from ever existing. Casinos might now think about this when planning free play mailers for big winners. How can you even evaluate the missed EV on plays which could've existed but never will.
Treating the post as a gamble, we can agree there is a non zero chance it will have a negative outcome for the community, and I fail to see the potential positive outcome.. so it is negative EV :)
darkoz
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January 8th, 2020 at 2:53:08 AM permalink
Quote: tyler498

Fair enough. And I agree with you that keeping the mailers coming in requires skills. I disagree that:
"The real AP is keeping the offers. And that I haven't nor plan to divulge so no one really needs to worry."
The skill to keep the play alive comes with experience and is shared with other AP plays as well. I don't believe there is a huge part that is specific to this play only (but I'm just guessing here). 2 AP might know of a given play, one is skilled and executes it successfully, one isn't and fails. The real play is still the same, the real play is what you are describing in the post.
And wouldn't you agree that the post might make it harder to keep the offers coming?
At the risk of exaggerating, it might also prevent new opportunities from ever existing. Casinos might now think about this when planning free play mailers for big winners. How can you even evaluate the missed EV on plays which could've existed but never will.
Treating the post as a gamble, we can agree there is a non zero chance it will have a negative outcome for the community, and I fail to see the potential positive outcome.. so it is negative EV :)



Or a person who might need a little help learning to AP might be able to see the potential of a future play or marketing offer! Even a member of WOV might go, wow, those casino execs didnt even think of this but I remember Darkoz post and something similar presents itself here.

I would consider that a sum positive. But of course most of the APs want the field to themselves.

Complain about people who spout ridiculous methods of beating casinos but not clue them in.

FINALLY IF THERE IS ANYONE HERE SO CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE CASINO EXECS READ THEN I SUGGEST YOU NEVER SHOULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO A 500 PAGE DISCUSSION OF ULTIMATE X

Yeesh!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about the most... Oh well! Look where you guys are now with casino gaming agents condoning the wiping of multipliers!!!!
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AxelWolf
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January 8th, 2020 at 3:53:06 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Or a person who might need a little help learning to AP might be able to see the potential of a future play or marketing offer! Even a member of WOV might go, wow, those casino execs didnt even think of this but I remember Darkoz post and something similar presents itself here.

I would consider that a sum positive. But of course most of the APs want the field to themselves.

Complain about people who spout ridiculous methods of beating casinos but not clue them in.

FINALLY IF THERE IS ANYONE HERE SO CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE CASINO EXECS READ THEN I SUGGEST YOU NEVER SHOULD HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO A 500 PAGE DISCUSSION OF ULTIMATE X

Yeesh!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about the most... Oh well! Look where you guys are now with casino gaming agents condoning the wiping of multipliers!!!!

Aside from educating casinos and Darksiders there's another aspect that's potentially more dangerous to Advantage players and plays. There's that saying, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and I think that applies here.

When you say stuff publicly you have absolutely no idea who's picking up on that information and what they'll attempt to do with it. It could be some totally crazy dude you wouldn't want anywhere near you or advantage play.

What you say may or may not work in exactly that way in other locations, it may or may not come up the same way in the future. That doesn't mean some variation of isn't or won't be available. I've seen it over and over, from promotions, new games to programming errors and more come up again over and over oftentimes, in a different variation of the same general concept.
Now you have a situation where people might try different stuff they would have never thought about on their own. Sometimes it's the wrong people who figured it out. You'll get guys that don't give a f*** about preserving plays or being discreet. They're one time warriors only there for a quick cash grab and they simply don't care what the consequences may or may not be. Those guys are dangerous, because the have just enough information to kill plays super quick. This isn't just something that could happen, I see it more frequently than you might think.

I have some examples that I'll save for another time. I have a feeling even you would say what the f*** was that guy thinking, what an idiot.

There's been times where I have tried to help the situation , unfortunately if you're dealing with some nut job or with an ego oftentimes they will just tell you to f*** off. There's been many times times I've found some smart reasonable people who just didn't know any better at the time, but they were willing to learn and do things differently for preservation purposes.

If you're talking about things that's happened in the last 5 or 10 years there's a good chance those things still have potential. People were giving out all the past information about the various bonus baking slots and look at it now, there's a multitude of these guys scavenging the casinos.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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RSAcesAndEightsdarkozbobbartoptringlomane
January 8th, 2020 at 4:35:02 AM permalink
Lots of thoughts here. First thought is HOW STUPID of the marketer to reward players that won with free play as opposed to having free play based on theoretical loss. Second thought is how PATHETIC of a computer program that doesn't keep the player card info once a round has started! Third thought is how keen darkoz was to figure out this play and exploit it in quite a lucrative manner.

Now about this forum...... I believe Darkoz has the right to post any play he wants. Our boss, the Wiz, is ACTIVELY involved in a thread delineating +EV bets on lottery stuff. He has posted about taking advantage of parlay cards with quite a specific plan. There are all sorts of vulturing threads going on. There are formulas on here to beat loss rebate offers. Etc....

The above being said, BBB does have a point, that it is possible that there are others taking advantage of this technique in areas that darkoz cannot reach by bus, and it is possible that this 'outing' of this play may dry those up. Axel's point about collateral damage is also valid, as there are 'similar' type plays that might be affected.

So, darkoz, I think I can be a generally neutral observer here. This forum really is made up of a community of generally like minded individuals, many of whom make a living doing just what you do. If we were all at a get together drinking a beer and being filmed for the local news, you wouldn't think of revealing such a play. I consider this forum such a get together. Just the internet makes it seem different.

I think that adding it all up, you should look inside yourself and see that as an AP, you should not have been that specific in open forum.

By the way, I need some tips from you. My last casino offer was for $5 match play.......
ChumpChange
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January 8th, 2020 at 6:38:31 AM permalink
Is that a tax form when you cash out $600 or more, or when you win $600 on a particular roll of the dice?

Do you have to pay taxes if your free plays total up over a $600 cash out, or when you hit a jackpot of $600 or more, or are free plays results exempt from tax forms altogether?
Wizard
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HugoSlaviadarkozZcore13AcesAndEightsUP84howid
January 8th, 2020 at 6:47:10 AM permalink
I've been asked to chime in.

Above all, this forum respects freedom of speech (subject to forum rules). There is absolutely no rule darkoz broke with that post. I tend to think his intentions were good in posting it. The same as mine in writing about plays I don't even do, like Ocean Magic, Golden Egypt, and Harley Davidson. I know every time I write about a play, those who already knew it throw stones at me. However, sometimes I get quietly thanked by those who did learn about a play from me. All things considered, I try to do more good than harm. That is what I ask myself before writing about a play. There are plenty of plays I never wrote about because they were "too good to write about."

In the case of this New York card-pulling play, I don't know if it will do more good than harm. However, I absolutely support darkoz's right to write about it. It's unfortunate we've lost a good member as a result and hope he will return.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
darkoz
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January 8th, 2020 at 6:59:09 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Lots of thoughts here. First thought is HOW STUPID of the marketer to reward players that won with free play as opposed to having free play based on theoretical loss. Second thought is how PATHETIC of a computer program that doesn't keep the player card info once a round has started! Third thought is how keen darkoz was to figure out this play and exploit it in quite a lucrative manner.

Now about this forum...... I believe Darkoz has the right to post any play he wants. Our boss, the Wiz, is ACTIVELY involved in a thread delineating +EV bets on lottery stuff. He has posted about taking advantage of parlay cards with quite a specific plan. There are all sorts of vulturing threads going on. There are formulas on here to beat loss rebate offers. Etc....

The above being said, BBB does have a point, that it is possible that there are others taking advantage of this technique in areas that darkoz cannot reach by bus, and it is possible that this 'outing' of this play may dry those up. Axel's point about collateral damage is also valid, as there are 'similar' type plays that might be affected.

So, darkoz, I think I can be a generally neutral observer here. This forum really is made up of a community of generally like minded individuals, many of whom make a living doing just what you do. If we were all at a get together drinking a beer and being filmed for the local news, you wouldn't think of revealing such a play. I consider this forum such a get together. Just the internet makes it seem different.

I think that adding it all up, you should look inside yourself and see that as an AP, you should not have been that specific in open forum.

By the way, I need some tips from you. My last casino offer was for $5 match play.......



You just had to.slip in a bus reference didnt ya, lol!

I agree with you and appreciate your defense. Here are some additional thoughts.

1) Is there anyone on this forum that believes doey/dont at Craps is new amd unknown?

2) Anyone on this forum think card pulling is new and unknown?

3) Anyone think hunting and using freeplay is unknown?

Absolutely nothing I exposed isnt already known.

All I did was show how a number of multi-layered seemingly diversr moves can bw integrated with the right research AND a wholly specific set of "perfect storm" conditions.

I can tell you you guys right now that I have analysed in a Similar manner over 50 casinos and only this one casino had this "perfect storm"

Most use theoretical.

The ones that dont usually disallow earning at E-Craps or not have E-craps period.

And the very few you might find that do certainly dont also allow for 2.5 seconds to send info thru their central server.

I am still quite shocked anyone imagines this specific play is being used (and ruined by me) in multiple locations.

As for worrying about the future validity of plays, you will have to erase a lot of public knowledge to protect from things that might be ruined in a potential manner. If thats what the WOV forum is about, hiding and protecting against future knowledge then this forum most likely serves very little purpose other than to discuss chip collections and how players with big bank accounts win at Baccarat

Edit: I am not certain Ploppie isnt some insult these days so edited to "Player" lol
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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ChumpChange
January 8th, 2020 at 7:15:34 AM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Is that a tax form when you cash out $600 or more, or when you win $600 on a particular roll of the dice?

Do you have to pay taxes if your free plays total up over a $600 cash out, or when you hit a jackpot of $600 or more, or are free plays results exempt from tax forms altogether?



NYS racino rules regarding jackpots:

$600 or more won on a SINGLE wager.

That includes a freeplay wager

No, it is not cashout or cumulative. Some racinos wont let you cash a $600+ cash voucher at a redemption machine but they can be cashed without showing ID at a cashiers cage. This is not a NYS regulation. I have seen some that allow up to $2500 redeemable at the machines. I have also seen this go up and down at the same establishment so it appears to just be a personal preference of an establishment at any given time.

FYI, there are Limited Jackpots and also Limited redemption vouchers. Whats the difference? The Limited jackpots require ID and are tax reported. Over $5,000 and Federal and state is automatically removed (pursuant to lottery tax laws as these are VLT)

Also to be clear, there are NO traditional "handpays" No one comes out with a load of cash and pays you on the spot. It is always in the form of a voucher which you redeem later at a cashier.

The Limited redemption(as opposed to the Limited jackpot)is a win over $600 THAT IS NOT TRULY A WIN OVER $600!

ex. You bet $700 on Banker in Baccarat. Tie occurs, You are handed back your money. You won nothing but the E-Bacarrat design considers it a win of $700. You get a voucher spit out that is not playable and only redeemable at the cashier. However scanning it in they see the actual win-wager and dont ask for ID. You just receive your money. Thats a big pain in the A@@ if you are a big player as it results in a lot of money tied up in unplayable vouchers without a trip to the cashier, but thats how they work
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MDawg
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January 8th, 2020 at 8:09:32 AM permalink
At the one end of the spectrum we have posts such as described here:
Quote: Eggharbor

Some of these people have like 15 to 20000 post on here and almost always just goofball responses not talking about gambling? If you don't like the guy why respond?


and at the other, interesting actual content.

This thread also demonstrates what we all know, which is that the Wizard's say is the final one.

As far as Rig, his posts such as the one supporting higher inheritance taxes seem more socialist in nature? so why would he be opposed to this sort of "share the wealth" of information thread?

Or maybe Dark is just trying to give MDog a run for the money for the #1 thread?
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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January 8th, 2020 at 8:20:02 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

At the one end of the spectrum we have posts such as described here:

and at the other, interesting actual content.

This thread also demonstrates what we all know, which is that the Wizard's say is the final one.

As far as Rig, his posts such as the one supporting higher inheritance taxes seem more socialist in nature? so why would he be opposed to this sort of "share the wealth" of information thread?

Or maybe Dark is just trying to give MDog a run for the money for the #1 thread?



Oh my lord, the most insightful post of the year
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
DRich
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tringlomane
January 8th, 2020 at 9:04:21 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

No. But there should be. Messing with someone's bottom line Is a lot worse than a personal insult.



Isn't not disclosing it also messing with someones bottom line. Zcore is employed by a casino, if the casino is losing money that may effect his job.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
ChumpChange
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January 8th, 2020 at 9:14:21 AM permalink
I was driving by a VLT casino years ago and the radio DJ I was listening to started going into a story about dropping a case of bottled beer on someones foot and they all shattered. I kept driving.
billryan
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darkozMintytringlomanehowid
January 8th, 2020 at 9:20:34 AM permalink
Oz said he had a play and most people doubted him. He posts the play well after the fact and is castigated for it. Such is the State of the forum in 2020.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AcesAndEights
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MichaelBluejayhowid
January 8th, 2020 at 9:48:55 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Oz said he had a play and most people doubted him. He posts the play well after the fact and is castigated for it. Such is the State of the forum in 2020.


Yeah I'm shocked that people are up in arms about this. Sure you can be upset if you want, but plays are posted on this forum all the time. It's always at the discretion of the poster and it's never been disallowed. "Information wants to be free."
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Rigondeaux
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AxelWolfRS
January 8th, 2020 at 10:19:06 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Isn't not disclosing it also messing with someones bottom line. Zcore is employed by a casino, if the casino is losing money that may effect his job.



It's a matter of ethics. If zcore posted in meticulous detail about methods to beat his own casino, knowing or believing it would have no impact on him individually , but that it would cost other workers their jobs, that would be reprehensible.
SOOPOO
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January 8th, 2020 at 10:23:45 AM permalink
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, darkoz. Wasn't my bus comment really subtle? As a teenager, I took the bus to AC a few times from Queens. I hated the fact that back then I had an exact time I needed to be at the bus for the return trip, so we started driving instead.

Of course people know about all the things you mentioned individually, with the possible exception of giving winners extra free play. If I'm a casino exec I fix that pronto! I think Axel's point about cluing the dark side in on a specific play such as yours gets them thinking about other things that are similar.

I think in this situation you could have emailed a specific member, not an AP, one trusted by the forum, to reveal the play. (ME). I could have vouched for the value and validity against the naysayers. Axel has shown me a few plays that I would never reveal without his permission, but they were enough for me to argue against those that say "no one can beat the casinos" or other such stuff.

So I'm being serious..... If you have a play that for some reason you want to reveal, run it by me first, just to get a second opinion from someone with no skin in the game.
SOOPOO
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January 8th, 2020 at 10:27:23 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

It's a matter of ethics. If zcore posted in meticulous detail about methods to beat his own casino, knowing or believing it would have no impact on him individually , but that it would cost other workers their jobs, that would be reprehensible.



Rig, I'm recommending you not leave the forum. If you think by leaving that the information posted here just disappears, then you are just being an ostrich. Feel free to use your voice to express your displeasure with the type of posts darkoz has made, as you have done. But what do you gain by going bye-bye?
Rigondeaux
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MaxPenAxelWolfRS
January 8th, 2020 at 10:32:46 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I've been asked to chime in.

Above all, this forum respects freedom of speech (subject to forum rules). There is absolutely no rule darkoz broke with that post. I tend to think his intentions were good in posting it. The same as mine in writing about plays I don't even do, like Ocean Magic, Golden Egypt, and Harley Davidson. I know every time I write about a play, those who already knew it throw stones at me. However, sometimes I get quietly thanked by those who did learn about a play from me. All things considered, I try to do more good than harm. That is what I ask myself before writing about a play. There are plenty of plays I never wrote about because they were "too good to write about."

In the case of this New York card-pulling play, I don't know if it will do more good than harm. However, I absolutely support darkoz's right to write about it. It's unfortunate we've lost a good member as a result and hope he will return.



I'd say antagonist posts made just to get an ego rush are the definition of trolling.

Discussing +ev plays here and there is fine. Again, the exact boundaries are fuzzy. Most APs are actually startlingly generous with info if it's done the right way.

To use the magic analogy, it's fine to teach people tricks or leave breadcrumbs or even take someone under your wing.

If too much is said to openly, the opportunities will go away entirely.

If someone started going through every magic act and explaining point by point how each trick is done, it would be a betrayal of that community.

If you wish to aid a narcissist in his quest for attention by betraying his community with troll posts, that's up to you.

All I can do is implore any magicians to refuse to participate.
mcallister3200
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January 8th, 2020 at 10:39:39 AM permalink
Thereís always been a disconnect with what is appropriate to discuss publicly between APís that are more into it for theory, recreation, moderate part of their income stream and those who depend on it. Not a new thing this squabble has played out on various blackjack forums. The odd part about DO is he behaves as if he doesnít depend on it as a significant source of income.
Rigondeaux
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Forager
January 8th, 2020 at 10:43:41 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Rig, I'm recommending you not leave the forum. If you think by leaving that the information posted here just disappears, then you are just being an ostrich. Feel free to use your voice to express your displeasure with the type of posts darkoz has made, as you have done. But what do you gain by going bye-bye?



I don't actively participate in a venue that is being used to cause me material harm.

Hopefully, others see it that way too.

Actually, I know for a fact that they have.

Once DO has gotten his ego rush, this place might just be your one stop shop for hydration tips and marty schemes.
MDawg
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January 8th, 2020 at 11:09:32 AM permalink

Why don't you just put him out of his misery and suspend him on the way out the door. He's either calling me or Dark a "narcissist" and he previously definitely called me a "narcissist." He didn't call my posts narcissistic he called me a narcissist which is a clear personal insult, especially when offered in this pejorative manner.

I can see that he's upset but being aggravated by whatever was said has never been allowed as an excuse for anything I said last year, I still got suspended. 😄 But, if part of the "new way" this year is to not suspend for insults, then, let it ride!
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
Zcore13
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darkozMintyhowid
January 8th, 2020 at 11:14:23 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

It's a matter of ethics. If zcore posted in meticulous detail about methods to beat his own casino, knowing or believing it would have no impact on him individually , but that it would cost other workers their jobs, that would be reprehensible.



Not exactly the same. He's an AP posting about AP. I'm in Casino Management/Supervision, so the equivalent would be posting about Management topics, like game protection, procedures, etc, which I have done. That probably helps AP's in some way. I say so what. It's my job to make the games fair and safe. If an AP is smart enough to beat me at it until I figure out a way to counter it, that's great. Cat and mouse.

Penn and Teller have said that the masked magician and others that have given away secrets has made magic a better thing. It forces magicians to be innovative and have new ideas. I mean how many decades do you want to see David Copperfield make a hanky dance around?

This is a gambling forum. Not an AP forum. If everything should remain a secret, you should be in or create a private AP forum with AP's only. Outside of that, just participate in threads you want to and don't in others. Voice your displeasure if you want to and commend others. But acting childish and running away doesn't do anything.


ZCore13
Last edited by: Zcore13 on Jan 8, 2020
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
MDawg
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January 8th, 2020 at 11:19:39 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg


Or maybe Dark is just trying to give MDog a run for the money for the #1 thread?


You're catching up Dark! You're now #2.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
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January 8th, 2020 at 11:29:38 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg


Or maybe Dark is just trying to give MDog a run for the money for the #1 thread?


You're catching up Dark! You're now #2.



Wow, Im out of breath!

Feel like Im running for the bus
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Wizard
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tringlomane
January 8th, 2020 at 11:43:40 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

If you wish to aid a narcissist in his quest for attention by betraying his community with troll posts, that's up to you.



I figure you wanted to go down as a martyr and I'll grant your request. 3 days.

I did like your magic analogy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
AxelWolf
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January 8th, 2020 at 1:26:34 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I've been asked to chime in.

Above all, this forum respects freedom of speech (subject to forum rules). There is absolutely no rule darkoz broke with that post. I tend to think his intentions were good in posting it. The same as mine in writing about plays I don't even do, like Ocean Magic, Golden Egypt, and Harley Davidson. I know every time I write about a play, those who already knew it throw stones at me. However, sometimes I get quietly thanked by those who did learn about a play from me. All things considered, I try to do more good than harm. That is what I ask myself before writing about a play. There are plenty of plays I never wrote about because they were "too good to write about."

In the case of this New York card-pulling play, I don't know if it will do more good than harm. However, I absolutely support darkoz's right to write about it. It's unfortunate we've lost a good member as a result and hope he will return.

I have no idea why you were asked to chime in since, WE ALL KNOW WHERE YOU STAND ON THIS ISSUE!
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
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January 8th, 2020 at 3:42:38 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I have no idea why you were asked to chime in since, WE ALL KNOW WHERE YOU STAND ON THIS ISSUE!



Axel, I asked him, as it is basically his forum. I felt darkoz was being ostracized unfairly. I tried to present a balanced view, mostly agreeing with you, actually. You telling him it's bad, Aces and Eights telling him it's good, me middling it..... Let's hear from the boss.
DRich
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January 8th, 2020 at 3:54:39 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Let's hear from the boss.



My wife has no interest in this.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
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