Passage of Senate Bill 9: encouraging/enabling skilled play as part of gambling in Vegas

Quote: SRiesenberger

Casinos will embrace these lifetime winners the same way they promote slot machine jackpot winners, because the House will always come out ahead no matter how many millions of dollars their lucky players win.

First off I really love this, advantage or not. The advantage part is a huge bonus. I can't wait to see it. And can't wait to see what's next, assuming its a big hit.

Unfortunately your statement isn't true. A few examples: This town used to be littered with VP progressives some with over 5% meters(thats huge for VP, very attractive for everyone a .25 RF normally 1k could get to 12k), most of them had a built in house edge, no matter who hit the jackpot or how perfect you played. House edge was guaranteed. They got tons of play from ploppies and AP's Everyone was happy BUT the casinos. Nowadays they have very few left.

Bob Dancer encouraged the M to install some progressives with good metters and explained its a Win win win situation. That didn't last long.

There have been many bonus games both VP and slots where the house couldn't lose, APs win, house wins and poppies loved them. I guarantee there is a few old concepts that if they came back, the casino would make more on them then what they have now, but they wont do it. They took away one of the funnest local and tourist VP games ever. They would be full while other VP games around them were empty, and it had a dam good house edge.

Mandalay Bay built their entire slot system around a player's banked pool. Months later they stripped it all out, not because they were losing, it was because they don't want APs making money. Someone thinks.... if someone is winning, we are losing, no matter how profitable it is FOR THE CASINO.

Bellagio had a ton of machines made specifically for them. Gone soon after.

IGT had thousands built on a banking system. They are hard to find nowadays.

I could go on and on with examples. Sure some faded away because of popularity but many were very popular and profitable.

IGT vision series were very popular and profitable. The concept could easily be added to any slot.

All Sigmas Ideas could be added, people loved that rush and adrenaline they got racing for banked bonuses.

Quote: AxelWolf

First off I really love this, advantage or not. The advantage part is a huge bonus. I can't wait to see it. And can't wait to see what's next, assuming its a big hit.

Unfortunately your statement isn't true. A few examples: This town used to be littered with VP progressives some with over 5% meters(thats huge for VP, very attractive for everyone a .25 RF normally 1k could get to 12k), most of them had a built in house edge, no matter who hit the jackpot or how perfect you played. House edge was guaranteed. They got tons of play from ploppies and AP's Everyone was happy BUT the casinos. Nowadays they have very few left.

I'm impressed by your knowledge of local casinos.

Unfortunately, I believe your examples of how many casinos adopted VP progressive machines and quickly removed them still underscores the stigma people have with regards to Advantage Play.

It is absolutely true that Video Poker is a game that offers Advantage Play with specific rule sets, payouts, and progressives. However, Video Poker is flawed in that the skilled player can ALWAYS earn an advantage with perfect strategy.

With "Vegas 2047" in conjunction with the NanoTech Advantage, even a robot that achieves the high score with every game will eventually exhaust the pool of theoretical advantage to award. In that very rare case, the game will simply award the payback as desired by the House.

Those "someones" winning at Wheel of Fortunes and other slot machines are always portrayed smiliing, holding up oversized checks with the amount of their jackpots. Nobody thinks for a minute that the casinos are losing money. (IMO)

Without supporting data from the specific casinos you mention, I have to accept your observations on faith. I'm skeptical since I believe that the casino's main concern revolves around maximizing return for square-footage; If a game returns a profit for the casino, in my opinion, it should not matter how many ploppies, tourists, or APs, are winning.

Also, it's OK that many folks on this thread are of the opinion that $100 is too large a bet for our product. It remains to be seen in a field test, obviously. But from the standpoint of Bet Denomination * House Edge * average time of resolved bet, we believe it very closely matches the model that matches high limit baccarat play. On top of that equation, we're offering Advantage Play for the best players with no exposure to the House.

I personally am a low limit player - $5 is a big deal for me - but I would absolutely save up $100 to make a bet to win $20 on "Vegas 2047".

We will see what the buzz is at this year's G2E show (9/29-10/1) and what the response will be from the big slot manufacturers.

Quote: SRiesenberger

With "Vegas 2047" in conjunction with the NanoTech Advantage, even a robot that achieves the high score with every game will eventually exhaust the pool of theoretical advantage to award. In that very rare case, the game will simply award the payback as desired by the House.

Just curious, do the high scores ever automatically get reset or is it permanent? Would it make sense to stop racking up the score once you have the high score?

Quote: SRiesenberger

Don’t worry. Pinball was simply the first game we chose to develop for a number of technological reasons. Perhaps “Vegas 2047” can rekindle some of those old reflexes that older players remember from 30 years ago. The fact of the matter is that ANY game of skill can be operated alongside the NanoTech Advantage. Skeeball, Centipede, Candy Crush, Temple Run: the mechanics in all of these games are welcome, but I would expect that the presentation has to change in order to match game time with cost. Also, we’re not worried about widespread casino placements; more about that below.

You seem very knowledgeable and level headed and are obviously able to take constructive criticism and discuss items listening to the other side. I commend you for that.

One thing I've been saying from the beginning, and I believe I've heard 3 different people from your company speak on your game, is that you don't seem to have a casino gaming person on the development team. This is based on lots of comments from one of your team and a few from you and another guy. If I am wrong, I am wrong, but if you do not have one, you need to get one. You are going to have a huge uphill battle without that person that can speak casino gaming. Not arcade gaming, not console gaming, not pinball technicalities or general advantage play talk and possibilities. Someone that's been in the trenches in table games or slot management or table games or slot sales and knows the players, knows the tendencies and knows the politics and regulatory issues from the inside. Things like "Casinos will embrace these lifetime winners the same way they promote slot machine jackpot winners..." show that you are not in the know of what goes on in the casino. Slot machine winners are embraced because it is known they will give it back. There are no lifetime winners in slots unless someone hits something huge and doesn't come back. Casinos do not embrace a lifetime winner due to being really good at one of their games, whether it be do to skill or advantage play or a combination of both.

Good luck to you and I'm glad to hear you have other projects in development. Hopefully if Pinball 2047 doesn't work in casinos you can transition it into the home market with a variety of installed or downloadable games. You'd clean up at Christmas for sure.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Casinos do not embrace a lifetime winner due to being really good at one of their games, whether it be do to skill or advantage play or a combination of both.

This made me chuckle out loud, it even
woke up the dog. Whoever thinks a
casino would embrace a lifetime winner
for any reason under the sun, is woefully
ignorant of how real casinos operate.

Woefully is an understatement, I'm being
kind.

The casinos have proven that they take advantage play seriously--they've proven that by being overzealous about it, in spite of the possibility (suggested in at least one study mentioned on this board) that shows that it costs more to get rid of a few counters than it does to let them count. I just don't think that type of environment is conducive for a game that rewards advantage play.

The counters, or at least the idea of counting, led many people to try the game of blackjack. I am sure many of them fancied themselves as counters by attempting "Speed Count" (sorry...a jab at our good friend, AofS) and other forms of counting. Guess what happened? MOST of them weren't good enough. MOST of them did not win. A few did.

The casino's reaction? They discourage play by making constant changes in rules that make the game less playable for EVERYONE. They do the same in all games that can be played to an advantage. The advantage is there, a few people can get it but more people lose trying to get it...and they change the game to get rid of the potential advantage.

They have also tightened up slots and installed more "penny" slots which are a joke...yes, your wager is counted in pennies and the machine is set at the level of a penny machine, but you have to bet a whole lot of pennies to play. If you can't make a bet at the size of the denomination (one penny) in question, it isn't a penny machine.

The point is this--casinos are not interested in having winners. They are not interested in games that have potential player advantages. They are not interested in the gambling fun lasting longer than a few minutes. They want to take all your money and they want it as quickly as possible. They work to find new ways to take it faster.

I think they can't see the forest for the trees, but that is the state of casino gambling today.

I wish you folks luck, but I am not optimistic about your chances in the long run.

Quote: SRiesenberger

I'm impressed by your knowledge of local casinos.

Unfortunately, I believe your examples of how many casinos adopted VP progressive machines and quickly removed them still underscores the stigma people have with regards to Advantage Play.

It is absolutely true that Video Poker is a game that offers Advantage Play with specific rule sets, payouts, and progressives. However, Video Poker is flawed in that the skilled player can ALWAYS earn an advantage with perfect strategy.

With "Vegas 2047" in conjunction with the NanoTech Advantage, even a robot that achieves the high score with every game will eventually exhaust the pool of theoretical advantage to award. In that very rare case, the game will simply award the payback as desired by the House.

Those "someones" winning at Wheel of Fortunes and other slot machines are always portrayed smiliing, holding up oversized checks with the amount of their jackpots. Nobody thinks for a minute that the casinos are losing money. (IMO)

Without supporting data from the specific casinos you mention, I have to accept your observations on faith. I'm skeptical since I believe that the casino's main concern revolves around maximizing return for square-footage; If a game returns a profit for the casino, in my opinion, it should not matter how many ploppies, tourists, or APs, are winning.

Also, it's OK that many folks on this thread are of the opinion that $100 is too large a bet for our product. It remains to be seen in a field test, obviously. But from the standpoint of Bet Denomination * House Edge * average time of resolved bet, we believe it very closely matches the model that matches high limit baccarat play. On top of that equation, we're offering Advantage Play for the best players with no exposure to the House.

I personally am a low limit player - $5 is a big deal for me - but I would absolutely save up $100 to make a bet to win $20 on "Vegas 2047".

We will see what the buzz is at this year's G2E show (9/29-10/1) and what the response will be from the big slot manufacturers.

Quote: SRiesenberger

It is absolutely true that Video Poker is a game that offers Advantage Play with specific rule sets, payouts, and progressives. However, Video Poker is flawed in that the skilled player can ALWAYS earn an advantage with perfect strategy

The games I mentioned (and there's many more I didn't mention) work almost exactly like your game(as far as pooling and advantage play).

The following part of your sentence really concerns me, it's as if you don't completely understand how VP progressives and banking machines i'm talking about work. "Video Poker is flawed in that the skilled player can ALWAYS earn an advantage with perfect strategy"

Thats only true if the AP plays at certain time(I didn't mean times of the day or a "hot machine")

Let me try to explain. Even a computer would lose playing optimally if it plays most progressives or bonus games 24/7 that AP's often played. There are a few 100% + VP games, even progressives , but very few, and I was not talking about them because that's not like your game.

Lets take a progressive VP situation close to that 1% situation of your game example.

Individual 7/5 bonus poker is 98.01% without a progressive meter. Add a .9 % Royal flush meter. Now we have 99% optional payback. No matter what, the casino theoretically makes at least 1%, even with PERFECT PLAY. If an AP sat and played perfectly around the clock, he would be playing with a disadvantage until he pushed the meter to about $5860( 99.01 +.9 meter = 100%) He would be playing over 4.5 times more often with a disadvantage than he would with an advantage. In order for the AP to have an advantage ALL the time, he would have to find the progressive at $5860 and not leave it until he hit the progressive.

MOST APable Bonus slots and ACCUMULATOR slots = a variation of a PROGRESSIVE(slots and VP work the same way). AP's ONLY have an advantage after the house has made a theoretical profit. its all just player banked money. Explain how this is any different from your game?

There's very few games where an AP always has an advantage. Most well known is FPDW VP at 100.7 (Somthing like this was probably the reason for your "ALL the time" comment) it's now mostly only used as a marketing tool, and its rarely found. It's almost never found above .25 denominations.
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Do you think AP's are going to sit and play pinball all day thinking they have an advantage? Meanwhile the house has a %1 edge? NO! That's impossible, unless your game has the ability to screw future players by lowering their future payback potential. It seems,in order for that system to work, at some point the payback would have to dip below the state minimum.

From my understanding the pinball game pools money that's generated from bad players ? Or perhaps it takes a portion of each wager and pools it?

Here's exactly how an AP's will beat your game/ the casino (given the limited info I have). Figure out how the money is banked or pooled. Watch and let the suckers play. Once the pool is +EV (that should probably be based on your own personal skill. It wont take long to get good, trust me. Having never played it, I easily could've beaten anyone on your team and I easily beat Ahigh. Remember Ahigh lost a few side bets? And I offered the same bets to anyone there.) AP's will then play until the pool is depleted, and leave. Once the pool builds back up the AP returns and drains the pool again. I Imagine someone could make the smallest wager possible. Figure out if there's an advantage and determine if the pool is ripe, then bet max on the next game if it's loos as if there's still an advantage. (does the advantage change with bet size? assuming I pick the same combination of odds?)

If in fact an AP/ good pinball player can always have the possibility of a +EV situation, the casino is really in trouble. Eventually someone will get so good that even a few unlucky games won't matter. Adding a bump feature would really be a huge advantage.

Be skeptical, however the reason why the casinos don't like when AP's win is Because AP's don't spend winnings back in the casino. Or casinos wouldn't spend millions on systems and games that actually do well for the house, and AP's, only to quickly remove them after APs exploit them.

Heres a great game I used to play as an AP. APs and the casinos both won big. The Idea was VERY GOOD. No actual data, but why is it that this faied "The Edgewater carousel, installed last summer, quickly transformed the worst producing dollar slot area of the casino into the best, he says. It also helped propel the Edgewater from eighth to second place in slot revenue among the 11 Laughlin casinos." entire story here http://lasvegassun.com/news/1997/jan/17/acres-hurricane-zone-debuts-at-circus/.

Hmmm interesting that they quickly starting removing them from CC once APs showed up I doubt they lasted a month at CC.
Edgewater tossed out a slew of AP's. luckily me and my GF had good cover and never got harassed. It was good enough that we rented a crappie place in Bullhead City for 7 months while maintaining a place in LV , but then they took them out. Granted at first AP's could time them, however that was adjusted to only initiate the bonus mode once enough money was pooled.

Quote: Mooseton

Just curious, do the high scores ever automatically get reset or is it permanent? Would it make sense to stop racking up the score once you have the high score?

I'm not sure if resetting high scores on a schedule would make sense, but the operator may choose to do so. In my opinion, once you've earned the highest score, it would benefit any future plays by stopping immediately. But you'd have to have knowledge of that of course; showing the "BEAT %" is also an operator setting.

Quote: AxelWolf

From my understanding the pinball game pools money that's generated from bad players ? Or perhaps it takes a portion of each wager and pools it?

Your assumptions are incorrect. "Vegas 2047", using the NanoTech Advantage pools theoretical advantage, not money. The NanoTech Advantage system takes theoretical advantage from players who placed bets and earned below-average scores. Those below-average scores resulted in below-average (i.e. lower than the payback set by the House, but above the state minimum 75%) payback. The larger the bet denomination, the larger the theoretical advantage taken, regardless of whether the player won or lost that bet. It's a strange concept to understand, but it's self-balancing, ensuring the House will never hold less than their desired Edge in the long run.

Maybe we should abandon the toxic phrase, "Advantage Play", as it may never lose its negative stigma. Everyone who points out how our system and thinking is flawed and will never work are those that also point out that casinos do not like Advantage Players. Our system is balanced, guarantees the House its Edge, and awards theoretical advantage (not dollars) to the above-average players.

The math speaks for itself in our patent-pending technology:
1. The House makes money from their Edge.
2. The pool of lower skilled players, overall, lose money by consistently playing at -EV and submitting below-average scores.
3. The best skilled player makes money by consistently playing at +EV, only if there is at least one -EV player, giving up their edge by earning below-average scores.

There is no exploit. Points #2 and #3 work similarly to head-to-head poker. The AP only has an advantage if there are -EV players contributing to the theoretical advantage pool.

As the industry focuses on skill-based slot machines and variable paybacks on the run-up to this year's Global Gaming Expo (G2E) I'm certain that many more developers will chime in with their games, theories, and systems.

At the end of the day, games, theories, and systems mean little to me. The question of "how much does it earn?" is the most important one to have answered. The big-name manufacturers haven't yet explained how they plan to respond to Senate Bill 9.

We have. We're doing it!

STV

I only question aiming a game at a certain clientele. Didn't Revel try that, in a sense?

Low or high rollers would love the same game. I know of no game that only appeals to one population set, unless people are forced out of play.

Although, maybe I missed that being addressed.

Quote:

The information available in the current version of “Vegas 2047” is out of necessity during development. Remember, this is only a prototype! Any or all of these variables can be selectively deactivated by the operator, the Bet, Win, and Skill Effect settings can be set and unchangeable by the player. If the casino wants to operate the game at $100/play for an even-money bet with NO Skill Effect, that’s their prerogative.

I've done several prototype, fast change software developments. Biggest lesson: don't make the prototype complex. There's no need. The idea is to get a working concept in front of people, who can give you feedback and requests. Maybe you have those answers tucked up ready to go, that you can reveal. But, at least in B2B markets I've worked in, complexity kills demos. Having a demo result in questions and ideas improves engagement, and shows there is an interest. So worth spending dollars in developing a feature.

Just a comment, you know your customers and space better than me. It's not the same industry as I have been working in.

Quote: SRiesenberger

...

Here is the bottom line question. If you were to play the game, you alone were the only player ever to play it in a casino, with your skill and knowledge of the game, no pooling, nothing else, just you face to face with the game, not relying on other losing players, would you beat the game and give the casino a negative result over the long run?

Please, no long paragraphs of explanation, just "yes" or "no."

I design slots, bingo and video poker that I can't beat. That's the test.

The reason I ask this is that if the game is beatable to any significant degree, you can bet that an AP will sit at it round the clock beating it. There will be no "pooling" EV.

Quote: teliot

The reason I ask this is that if the game is beatable to any significant degree, you can bet that an AP will sit at it round the clock beating it.

Exactly. If it can be beaten, AP's will
play it in teams until the casino finally
pulls it out. Happens all the time with
new games. Grosjean says they played
a new game and played and played,
with the game designer there the whole
time, with tears in his eyes. They won
thousands and the game was shut down.
That's how casino life works.

Quote: teliot

Here is the bottom line question. If you were to play the game, you alone were the only player ever to play it in a casino, with your skill and knowledge of the game, no pooling, nothing else, just you face to face with the game, not relying on other losing players, would you beat the game and give the casino a negative result over the long run?

Please, no long paragraphs of explanation, just "yes" or "no."

I design slots, bingo and video poker that I can't beat. That's the test.

The reason I ask this is that if the game is beatable to any significant degree, you can bet that an AP will sit at it round the clock beating it. There will be no "pooling" EV.

The answer must be no. He's essentially talking about a vulture machine, where skill at the game replaces "looking for 9 out of 10 bonus trigger symbols" like the old accumulator games I used to make. The only way the math works is if you get losers to fund the winners, and if there are no losers, you never have anyone playing to get the first 9 symbols. This is exactly why those machines went away -- the losers never hit the bonus rounds and had a huge edge, and the winners were vulturing the bonuses and cleaning up.

It doesn't matter whether the "skill" is mental (as in video poker, or counting cards in blackjack) or physical (as in twitch games like pinball) -- if a player can play +EV off the top, the game is beatable and represents a potential risk to the casino.

Quote: SRiesenberger

I'm not sure if resetting high scores on a schedule would make sense, but the operator may choose to do so. In my opinion, once you've earned the highest score, it would benefit any future plays by stopping immediately. But you'd have to have knowledge of that of course; showing the "BEAT %" is also an operator setting.


Your assumptions are incorrect. "Vegas 2047", using the NanoTech Advantage pools theoretical advantage, not money. The NanoTech Advantage system takes theoretical advantage from players who placed bets and earned below-average scores. Those below-average scores resulted in below-average (i.e. lower than the payback set by the House, but above the state minimum 75%) payback. The larger the bet denomination, the larger the theoretical advantage taken, regardless of whether the player won or lost that bet. It's a strange concept to understand, but it's self-balancing, ensuring the House will never hold less than their desired Edge in the long run.

Maybe we should abandon the toxic phrase, "Advantage Play", as it may never lose its negative stigma. Everyone who points out how our system and thinking is flawed and will never work are those that also point out that casinos do not like Advantage Players. Our system is balanced, guarantees the House its Edge, and awards theoretical advantage (not dollars) to the above-average players.

The math speaks for itself in our patent-pending technology:
1. The House makes money from their Edge.
2. The pool of lower skilled players, overall, lose money by consistently playing at -EV and submitting below-average scores.
3. The best skilled player makes money by consistently playing at +EV, only if there is at least one -EV player, giving up their edge by earning below-average scores.

There is no exploit. Points #2 and #3 work similarly to head-to-head poker. The AP only has an advantage if there are -EV players contributing to the theoretical advantage pool.

As the industry focuses on skill-based slot machines and variable paybacks on the run-up to this year's Global Gaming Expo (G2E) I'm certain that many more developers will chime in with their games, theories, and systems.

At the end of the day, games, theories, and systems mean little to me. The question of "how much does it earn?" is the most important one to have answered. The big-name manufacturers haven't yet explained how they plan to respond to Senate Bill 9.

We have. We're doing it!

STV

I wrote something long winded and it got delete.

One question was. Let's say you install the game at one location and someone practices and gets good.

Now you install it at a different location. Mr pinball AP guy is the very first player at the new location, he bets the maximum amount choosing the longest odds(what is that amount BTW?) he has an incredible score, something unbelievable and wins. He keeps doing this winning an incredible amount . Now what? The subsequent players are stuck with very low payback possibilities no matter how good they are?

Quote: MathExtremist

The answer must be no. He's essentially talking about a vulture machine, where skill at the game replaces "looking for 9 out of 10 bonus trigger symbols" like the old accumulator games I used to make. The only way the math works is if you get losers to fund the winners, and if there are no losers, you never have anyone playing to get the first 9 symbols. This is exactly why those machines went away -- the losers never hit the bonus rounds and had a huge edge, and the winners were vulturing the bonuses and cleaning up.

It doesn't matter whether the "skill" is mental (as in video poker, or counting cards in blackjack) or physical (as in twitch games like pinball) -- if a player can play +EV off the top, the game is beatable and represents a potential risk to the casino.

From the FAQ http://ntekgl.com/vegas2047/Vegas2047.pdf



The game has no more exposure to the casino than any other game with the same volatility and house advantage settings. It cannot and will not be a money loser for the casino in the long run, by design.

There are plenty of operator settings for min/max bets, min/max wins, and min/max pay fractions/multiples. The casino has all the controls to get exactly what they want just like the players.

Quote: MathExtremist

It doesn't matter whether the "skill" is mental (as in video poker, or counting cards in blackjack) or physical (as in twitch games like pinball) -- if a player can play +EV off the top, the game is beatable and represents a potential risk to the casino.

I Was going to say something like this but it got deleted. - the +EV off the top part, because he has said the EV is player pooled. But, no matter how complex the players pool is, it's no different than a Video poker progressive or a slot accumulator whether its obtained by physical skill or by mental skill. Casinos won't like it.

I don't think they understand how VP progressives and banking slots work?

Quote: AxelWolf

I wrote something long winded and it got delete.

One question was. Let's say you install the game at one location and someone practices and gets good.

Now you install it at a different location. Mr pinball AP guy is the very first player at the new location, he bets the maximum amount choosing the longest odds(what is that amount BTW?) he has an incredible score, something unbelievable and wins. He keeps doing this winning an incredible amount . Now what? The subsequent players are stuck with very low payback possibilities no matter how good they are?

Skill is measured by metrics created by other players who played before you. It doesn't matter the reasons why, but if you can never achieve a score percentile above 50%, you should turn the skill component off and practice until you can achieve this result. Playing Vegas 2047 with skill disabled is still plenty of fun and your lack of skill does not reduce the payback at all (unlike similar "autohold" features that enable the casinos to make more from player mistakes when it is disabled). So the casino is agnostic if you are a skilled player or one who just wants to get lucky.

Quote: Ahigh

From the FAQ http://ntekgl.com/vegas2047/Vegas2047.pdf


. It cannot and will not be a money loser for the casino in the long run, by design.

There are plenty of operator settings for min/max bets, min/max wins, and min/max pay fractions/multiples. The casino has all the controls to get exactly what they want just like the players.

NOR DO VP PROGRESSIVE or BANKING SLOTS IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME just a different banking method. The casinos always make money on them type of games (they can't lose in the long run), but they still 86 PLAYERS and pull the machines OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

I'm not arguing this game isn't AWESOME you guys made a FANTASTIC game. Integrating The pinball concept into gaming has been tried since the 90's without much success. My friend had his pinball slot idea denied by gaming.

I'm not saying it won't be successful it's a very good game. But don't fool yourselves thinking its complex pooling/banking system is any different than what most AP'able games have been in the past and its what APs have been doing.

Quote: teliot

If you were to play the game, you alone were the only player ever to play it in a casino, with your skill and knowledge of the game, no pooling, nothing else, just you face to face with the game, not relying on other losing players, would you beat the game and give the casino a negative result over the long run?

Please, no long paragraphs of explanation, just "yes" or "no."

"no"

Quote: Ahigh

Skill is measured by metrics created by other players who played before you. It doesn't matter the reasons why, but if you can never achieve a score percentile above 50%, you should turn the skill component off and practice until you can achieve this result. Playing Vegas 2047 with skill disabled is still plenty of fun and your lack of skill does not reduce the payback at all (unlike similar "autohold" features that enable the casinos to make more from player mistakes when it is disabled). So the casino is agnostic if you are a skilled player or one who just wants to get lucky.

That totally didn't answer my question. And FYI IM NOT bashing your game. I really hope you guys are successful I hope you find a way to convince casinos to embrace games like this. Perhaps the next mini poker craze

So I'm trying to understand how it's different from the casinos point of view and how they normally react to APs and AP'able games. (1)Agian I can't find the difference in a VP progressives and banking( and player pooled). <<< totally different >>>(2)I DO UNDERSTAND how its different than a FPDW VP with a theoretical built in .7 advantage because it's 100.7.

Your game is exactly like example (1) but you guys keep comparing and mixing up 1 and 2 when describing how your game is different from APable games.

Casinos 86 players for BOTH examples . Hell I wouldn't put it past a casino to 86 an advantage player if Megabucks got to +EV.
Had any AP's locked up lion share I bet MGM would've 86ed them.


Do you guys really understand how AP'able progressives and banking slots work?


I'll shorten it.

Mr pinball AP guy is the very first player at the new location, he bets the maximum amount choosing the longest odds(what is that amount BTW?) he has an incredible score, something unbelievable and wins. He keeps doing this winning an incredible amount . Now what? The subsequent players are stuck with very low payback possibilities? ?

Quote: AxelWolf

Mr pinball AP guy is the very first player at the new location, he bets the maximum amount choosing the longest odds(what is that amount BTW?) he has an incredible score, something unbelievable and wins. He keeps doing this winning an incredible amount . Now what? The subsequent players are stuck with very low payback possibilities? ?

We set max bet to $5000 and max win to $50000 - actually had someone make and win this bet at G2E. However, these settings are up to the casino, of course.

Being the very first player at the new location, there wouldn't be any theoretical advantage to award this player so his payback would be that set by the House. In our examples this would be 99%. It doesn't matter how much he wins, as long as this player continues to score more than his last performance, his payback won't change.

I gotta jump in here too. I really do wish we had more free time to answer questions like this. Stephen and I are both spending our three day weekends addressing these questions, and it's entertaining. But we have a lot of other stuff to be doing than to get all wrapped up in the suspension list and other Wizard of Vegas related drama.

Your questions with all caps, our friendship between Stephen and I and you aside, is a sort of a warning sign. We can't just be posting back and forth on the internet with people who don't understand what is different between our system and a traditional metered AP/vulturable/jackpot sort of thing. We don't have to understand every jackpot system ever devised in order to devise a system that is simple, transparent, fair, legal, and approved by gaming for skill-based play.

We have had GLI involved with our efforts for quite some time now, and we have been assured that our approach holds water for over a year. As much as we'd love to debate and/or defend what we've done with folks, there is a point of diminishing returns with how we spend our time on this forum.

GLI has had put in front of them every different type of machine and pay schedule in general, and Noah at GLI definitely understands the high level picture about what is the same and what is different about our model.

But as far as NanoTech's participation on this particular forum, please respect this and try not to stir up an argument. Whatever your objective is, whether it is to support us to bash us matters no more than in your example if the player won or lost; we are more concerned with the theoretical hold percentage for the casino in your case (which is will be exactly what the casino or ever so slightly higher [less higher as time goes on] no matter how many or how skilled the players are). And in the case of your bashing us or not bashing us, we will still be more concerned with how this does in the casino not whether or not Zcore, EvenBob, Axelwolf, or any other person who sees problems based on their limited understanding of what we are doing raises some misguided concern for whether or not what we have done holds water or will be accepted.

We just don't have the bandwidth to answer every question, frankly.

Let us enjoy our weekends, and after we start our work week, please don't put me in a position where I have to discontinue our posting on this forum all together.

Quote: Ahigh

I gotta jump in here too. I really do wish we had more free time to answer questions like this. Stephen and I are both spending our three day weekends addressing these questions, and it's entertaining. But we have a lot of other stuff to be doing than to get all wrapped up in the suspension list and other Wizard of Vegas related drama.

Your questions with all caps, our friendship between Stephen and I and you aside, is a sort of a warning sign. We can't just be posting back and forth on the internet with people who don't understand what is different between our system and a traditional metered AP/vulturable/jackpot sort of thing. We don't have to understand every jackpot system ever devised in order to devise a system that is simple, transparent, fair, legal, and approved by gaming for skill-based play.

We have had GLI involved with our efforts for quite some time now, and we have been assured that our approach holds water for over a year. As much as we'd love to debate and/or defend what we've done with folks, there is a point of diminishing returns with how we spend our time on this forum.

GLI has had put in front of them every different type of machine and pay schedule in general, and Noah at GLI definitely understands the high level picture about what is the same and what is different about our model.

But as far as NanoTech's participation on this particular forum, please respect this and try not to stir up an argument. Whatever your objective is, whether it is to support us to bash us matters no more than in your example if the player won or lost; we are more concerned with the theoretical hold percentage for the casino in your case (which is will be exactly what the casino or ever so slightly higher [less higher as time goes on] no matter how many or how skilled the players are). And in the case of your bashing us or not bashing us, we will still be more concerned with how this does in the casino not whether or not Zcore, EvenBob, Axelwolf, or any other person who sees problems based on their limited understanding of what we are doing raises some misguided concern for whether or not what we have done holds water or will be accepted.

We just don't have the bandwidth to answer every question, frankly.

Let us enjoy our weekends, and after we start our work week, please don't put me in a position where I have to discontinue our posting on this forum all together.

Somehow nobody is ever as smart as you and nobody ever understands what you do.

GLI has no bearing or input into a game getting into a casino.

Answering questions on a furum really doesn't take up any bandwidth.

You didn't post for a long time and everything went just fine.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: Ahigh

I gotta jump in here too. I really do wish we had more free time to answer questions like this. Stephen and I are both spending our three day weekends addressing these questions, and it's entertaining. But we have a lot of other stuff to be doing than to get all wrapped up in the suspension list and other Wizard of Vegas related drama.

Your questions with all caps, our friendship between Stephen and I and you aside, is a sort of a warning sign. We can't just be posting back and forth on the internet with people who don't understand what is different between our system and a traditional metered AP/vulturable/jackpot sort of thing. We don't have to understand every jackpot system ever devised in order to devise a system that is simple, transparent, fair, legal, and approved by gaming for skill-based play.

We have had GLI involved with our efforts for quite some time now, and we have been assured that our approach holds water for over a year. As much as we'd love to debate and/or defend what we've done with folks, there is a point of diminishing returns with how we spend our time on this forum.

GLI has had put in front of them every different type of machine and pay schedule in general, and Noah at GLI definitely understands the high level picture about what is the same and what is different about our model.

But as far as NanoTech's participation on this particular forum, please respect this and try not to stir up an argument. Whatever your objective is, whether it is to support us to bash us matters no more than in your example if the player won or lost; we are more concerned with the theoretical hold percentage for the casino in your case (which is will be exactly what the casino or ever so slightly higher [less higher as time goes on] no matter how many or how skilled the players are). And in the case of your bashing us or not bashing us, we will still be more concerned with how this does in the casino not whether or not Zcore, EvenBob, Axelwolf, or any other person who sees problems based on their limited understanding of what we are doing raises some misguided concern for whether or not what we have done holds water or will be accepted.

We just don't have the bandwidth to answer every question, frankly.

Let us enjoy our weekends, and after we start our work week, please don't put me in a position where I have to discontinue our posting on this forum all together.

Somehow nobody is ever as smart as you and nobody ever understands what you do.

GLI has no bearing or input into a game getting into a casino.

Answering questions on a furum really doesn't take up any bandwidth.

You didn't post for a long time and everything went just fine.

ZCore13

This is a perfect example, Zcore, and thanks for providing it. I don't have time for personal insults like this, and neither does Stephen. You are the number one offender when it comes to insulting me.

Quote: Ahigh

Quote: Zcore13

Quote: Ahigh

I gotta jump in here too. I really do wish we had more free time to answer questions like this. Stephen and I are both spending our three day weekends addressing these questions, and it's entertaining. But we have a lot of other stuff to be doing than to get all wrapped up in the suspension list and other Wizard of Vegas related drama.

Your questions with all caps, our friendship between Stephen and I and you aside, is a sort of a warning sign. We can't just be posting back and forth on the internet with people who don't understand what is different between our system and a traditional metered AP/vulturable/jackpot sort of thing. We don't have to understand every jackpot system ever devised in order to devise a system that is simple, transparent, fair, legal, and approved by gaming for skill-based play.

We have had GLI involved with our efforts for quite some time now, and we have been assured that our approach holds water for over a year. As much as we'd love to debate and/or defend what we've done with folks, there is a point of diminishing returns with how we spend our time on this forum.

GLI has had put in front of them every different type of machine and pay schedule in general, and Noah at GLI definitely understands the high level picture about what is the same and what is different about our model.

But as far as NanoTech's participation on this particular forum, please respect this and try not to stir up an argument. Whatever your objective is, whether it is to support us to bash us matters no more than in your example if the player won or lost; we are more concerned with the theoretical hold percentage for the casino in your case (which is will be exactly what the casino or ever so slightly higher [less higher as time goes on] no matter how many or how skilled the players are). And in the case of your bashing us or not bashing us, we will still be more concerned with how this does in the casino not whether or not Zcore, EvenBob, Axelwolf, or any other person who sees problems based on their limited understanding of what we are doing raises some misguided concern for whether or not what we have done holds water or will be accepted.

We just don't have the bandwidth to answer every question, frankly.

Let us enjoy our weekends, and after we start our work week, please don't put me in a position where I have to discontinue our posting on this forum all together.

Somehow nobody is ever as smart as you and nobody ever understands what you do.

GLI has no bearing or input into a game getting into a casino.

Answering questions on a furum really doesn't take up any bandwidth.

You didn't post for a long time and everything went just fine.

ZCore13

This is a perfect example, Zcore, and thanks for providing it. I don't have time for personal insults like this, and neither does Stephen. You are the number one offender when it comes to insulting me.

Sorry my friend. No insults there. Hopefully Stephen will stick around. Good luck.

ZCore13

Quote: SRiesenberger

Maybe we should abandon the toxic phrase, "Advantage Play", as it may never lose its negative stigma. Everyone who points out how our system and thinking is flawed and will never work are those that also point out that casinos do not like Advantage Players. Our system is balanced, guarantees the House its Edge, and awards theoretical advantage (not dollars) to the above-average players.

The same can be said for a 6/5 JOB progressive with a 5% meter. Yet the casinos hate that game and won't offer it.

You've failed repeatedly to explain how a typical casino that hates banking slots and VP progressives with large meters is going to embrace your game.

Quote: sabre

The same can be said for a 6/5 JOB progressive with a 5% meter. Yet the casinos hate that game and won't offer it.

You've failed repeatedly to explain how a typical casino that hates banking slots and VP progressives with large meters is going to embrace your game.

I don't believe any more explanation is necessary. All of the information needed to understand how the NanoTech Advantage works in "Vegas 2047" is available to those interested in learning.

Comparing "Vegas 2047" to a progressive VP machine indicates that you haven't yet fully grasped how the NanoTech Advantage system works.

Keep trying and keep asking questions. I will continue to answer them as best I can.

STV

Quote: stv2047

Comparing "Vegas 2047" to a progressive VP machine indicates that you haven't yet fully grasped how the NanoTech Advantage system works.

The NanoTech Advantage seems to be a system whereby the overall machine return should approximate the set theoretical house edge over the long run. Yet each individual game may have an expectation higher or lower than that set theoretical edge depending on prior play and the skill level of the current player.

This sounds exactly like a progressive video poker machine to me.

Quote: sabre

The NanoTech Advantage seems to be a system whereby the overall machine return should approximate the set theoretical house edge over the long run. Yet each individual game may have an expectation higher or lower than that set theoretical edge depending on prior play and the skill level of the current player.

This sounds exactly like a progressive video poker machine to me.

I really do appreciate all the positive comments, guys. We're excited about and working hard towards our first installation.

It sounds like you have it right, but a video poker actual hold percentage can go much MUCH higher than the amount set by the operator. That's a major difference. In addition to that, video poker with over 100% payback also enables the casino to lose money for that machine in the long run as a result of a pricing error if the skill of the average player enables the average bet on the machine to pay over 100%.

With our game, it was a priority to not penalize a player for not wanting to crank up the skill-factor (IE: delta from min to max payback as a result of score percentile) to the max. That's the "bet cube" stuff. 3 dimensions of control. Amount of bet. Amount of win. Amount of skill. Whatever you want in that 3d space -- and it's a big space -- to explore for how you want to gamble.

If you just want to gamble and don't care about pinball, the casino makes more money from you than the average player. So there is no penalty for having a faster game when you're not concerned about the score and just want to gamble.

Edit.

Many thanks to those who have contributed to this thread for the inspiration: "What's Skill Got To Do With It."

Quote: stv2047

I don't believe any more explanation is necessary. All of the information needed to understand how the NanoTech Advantage works in "Vegas 2047" is available to those interested in learning.

Comparing "Vegas 2047" to a progressive VP machine indicates that you haven't yet fully grasped how the NanoTech Advantage system works.

Keep trying and keep asking questions. I will continue to answer them as best I can.

STV

Actually you guys compare it to Video poker progressives, saying its completely different from an AP and casinos point of view, but it's NOT.

It's only different from a 100%+ machine.

The only reason I'm telling you this is you guys are pushing and bragging about the advantage play aspect (A very bad decision IMO) I wouldn't lead with that. Casinos dislike that. They spend millions getting rid of AP's. You're trying to explain that it's different than all the other AP'able banking/pooling slots and VP progressives, but again its not.

Do you think that IGT and others told the casinos AP's will be attracted to the AP'able machines? Hell no, Im willing to bet they didn't even mention it.

I'll Bet, if they told the first group of casinos that Ultimate X would attract AP's and Vultures. Ultimate X would've been rejected at the word Advantage.

Quote: teliot

Many thanks to those who have contributed to this thread for the inspiration: "What's Skill Got To Do With It."

I see a very important wording that I hadn't really thought about before:

“a game in which the skill of the player, by reason of the knowledge, dexterity or any other ability of expertise of the player, rather than chance, is the dominant factor in affecting the outcome of the game as determined over a period of continuous play.”

In Vegas 2047, skill is not a dominant factor (nor is it in blackjack under your examples). These aren't skill games by this definition.

I just saw some guy holding AKQ UNSUITED with a deuce in DW.

Quote: djatc

I just saw some guy holding AKQ UNSUITED with a deuce in DW.

I saw a couple hold just an 8 in DW a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned it elsewhere.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I saw a couple hold just an 8 in DW a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned it elsewhere.

This might be a holdover from joker's wild, where you hold Joker+7, but if they didn't hold a deuce with it then I have no idea wtf they are doing. Maybe they are Asian, 8 is a lucky number for us.

Every now and then I walk by and see people making horrendous holds but it's pretty rare. Lots of 3 to the royal + 1 extra suited card for a 4 to the flush (non-10/7 db games), pairs with a high card, 2 high cards + ace, breaking 2 pair for a non ace high pair, etc.

Quote: djatc

This might be a holdover from joker's wild, where you hold Joker+7, but if they didn't hold a deuce with it then I have no idea wtf they are doing. Maybe they are Asian, 8 is a lucky number for us.

Every now and then I walk by and see people making horrendous holds but it's pretty rare. Lots of 3 to the royal + 1 extra suited card for a 4 to the flush (non-10/7 db games), pairs with a high card, 2 high cards + ace, breaking 2 pair for a non ace high pair, etc.

No, they had no idea what they were doing. It was hard for me to bite my tongue and not help at all. BTW this was on Utx.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

No, they had no idea what they were doing.

Quote: thecesspit

Quote: teliot

Many thanks to those who have contributed to this thread for the inspiration: "What's Skill Got To Do With It."

I see a very important wording that I hadn't really thought about before:

“a game in which the skill of the player, by reason of the knowledge, dexterity or any other ability of expertise of the player, rather than chance, is the dominant factor in affecting the outcome of the game as determined over a period of continuous play.”

In Vegas 2047, skill is not a dominant factor (nor is it in blackjack under your examples). These aren't skill games by this definition.

The Commission is going to have some work to do. The newly-written statute doesn't define "dominant" at all.

If I make a wagering arcade game (let's say Pitfall!) where the wager is resolved based on dexterity 51% of the time and an RNG 49% of the time, that's a skill game, but flip the percentages and it's not? This is going to get interesting.

Quote: djatc

This might be a holdover from joker's wild, where you hold Joker+7, but if they didn't hold a deuce with it then I have no idea wtf they are doing. Maybe they are Asian, 8 is a lucky number for us.

Every now and then I walk by and see people making horrendous holds but it's pretty rare. Lots of 3 to the royal + 1 extra suited card for a 4 to the flush (non-10/7 db games), pairs with a high card, 2 high cards + ace, breaking 2 pair for a non ace high pair, etc.

In non-Vegas areas, I usually see the last one fairly frequently, breaking 2 pair with Kings-Jacks in them. Other than that the other things you describe are pretty rare in my eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if the players in my local area as a whole lost less than 1% return due to errors. Definitely not 2%.

Another reason to have a game like this -- it brings people into the room. The old Sigma Derby brings people into a room. Of course, I know people who go into a room only to play a Sigma Derby and ignore everything else, because they are not typical gamblers.

This is not even close to Sigma Derby. Sigma was one of the first community style games. You could drink and talk and watch and it had no real effect on your chances to win.

Pinball is an individual game with a limited audience. Anyone under 30 probably hasn't even ever played one. Also, they are trying to market it as a high limit game. $100 a bet. This takes the interest and potential player pool to about 2% or less of the gambling public.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Also, they are trying to market it as a high limit game. $100 a bet. This takes the interest and potential player pool to about 2% or less of the gambling public.ZCore13

The last time I played pinball (circa 1985), it cost 50 cents, and I thought that was too expensive at the time.

It's a competition. But I disagree with the assertion anyway. I watch people who do well at something even if it's just a friend who is really good.

Millennials, who were raised on computer games,
find pinball way to slow to hold their interest.

Quote: rxwine

It's a competition. But I disagree with the assertion anyway. I watch people who do well at something even if it's just a friend who is really good.

do you really think the casino is going to allow people to gather around a pinball machine were a high limit player is betting $100 or more, so that if somebody touches the machine or gets their head in the way the person loses their money?


ZCore13

Say the machine gets 10 placements, that
would be a lot, but it wouldn't be profitable.
It would have to get a few hundred placements
and that's never gonna happen.

Quote: Zcore13

do you really think the casino is going to allow people to gather around a pinball machine were a high limit player is betting $100 or more, so that if somebody touches the machine or gets their head in the way the person loses their money?


ZCore13

I'm not sure.

Is it the same as high rolling craps player having a good streak and the table is crowded? Maybe not. But I do think there could be instances where someone's friends are watching such a game.

Who has a $100 dollar bill to spend on
a casino game. I know this much, it's
not most of the people in that photo.
Most people under 30 are low rollers,
they're $5 and $10 players. And that's
who would be interested in a pinball
game. I never played as an adult
because it's a kids game.

Quote: rxwine

I'm not sure.

Is it the same as high rolling craps player having a good streak and the table is crowded? Maybe not. But I do think there could be instances where someone's friends are watching such a game.

I do think at a $5, $10 and maybe even $25 level it would have a VERY slim chance of making it. I'd play it a few times for $5. As it stands right now, with their current plan it has almost a zero percent chance of getting more than a handful of tests.

The problem is this isn't the 80's or 90's anymore. Atari doesn't rule the world. Video Arcades are history. It's all been replaced and it's passed some people by. I got on my Son's Xbox One last night and was able to play all sorts of classic pinball games. All the games I used to play. Black Night 2000, Funhouse, Terminator 2, Adams Family, Whirlwind and more. Every one of them exact replicas of the original game in HD quality. Put all of these on NTEK's pinball machine and I'd pay $1,000 for the machine and they'd sell thousands and thousands of units. The licensing for these old games is probably next to nothing.

There are a few of us that are in related businesses. Table games management, slot design, math, etc. We've offered advice that would cost tens of thousands of dollars from a consultant. They don't listen.


ZCore13