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Ahigh
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May 16th, 2015 at 12:14:23 PM permalink
We were invited by Tom Jingoli to join the AGEM and be a part of the passage of Senate Bill 9.

When I saw that nobody was discussing this already, I felt compelled enough to ask Michael to reinstate my account to bring up the subject.

The official PR from AGEM:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/association-gaming-equipment-manufacturers-agem-140000544.html

The review journals article from Howard Stutz:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/bill-approving-slots-skill-factor-heads-governor

An overview of how NanoTech Gaming has implemented skill based gambling in Vegas 2047.

http://ntek.bitnamiapp.com/vegas2047/Vegas2047.pdf

I thought that readers of this forum might like to be aware of these stories, and I wish everyone on the forum the best.
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GWAE
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May 16th, 2015 at 12:54:31 PM permalink
Welcome back
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Gabes22
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May 16th, 2015 at 1:01:22 PM permalink
That is some interesting stuff. One of the things that detracted me from slot machines was the simplicity or the fact that I had no control over the outcome of the game, that and the ultra crappy returns. But something like that might cause me to give them a try if and when they get implemented.

BTW Ahigh, welcome back. BTW is the reinstatement permanent or is this just to bring this topic up? I hope it is permanent. I think you brought a lot of good information to the forum. While dice influence or dice control continues to be a heated topic, I think you at least addressed it with an open mind. There are those who deny any possibility of it, and those who can claim to do it. I think you addressed it from the mindset of wanting to see if it was possible. I hope you are doing well, and hope to see more from you in the future
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100xOdds
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May 16th, 2015 at 2:35:46 PM permalink
Quote: Gabes22

BTW Ahigh, welcome back.

BTW is the reinstatement permanent or is this just to bring this topic up? I hope it is permanent. I think you brought a lot of good information to the forum. While dice influence or dice control continues to be a heated topic, I think you at least addressed it with an open mind. There are those who deny any possibility of it, and those who can claim to do it. I think you addressed it from the mindset of wanting to see if it was possible. I hope you are doing well, and hope to see more from you in the future



ditto!
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
HowMany
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May 16th, 2015 at 2:52:41 PM permalink
Glad to know you're alive and well Ahigh. Stick around for awhile, man.
beachbumbabs
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May 16th, 2015 at 2:54:15 PM permalink
Welcome back, Ahigh.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
EvenBob
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May 16th, 2015 at 3:34:27 PM permalink
Any installs on the pinball yet? Any
news as to when?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rxwine
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May 16th, 2015 at 3:36:51 PM permalink
Wondering if some Indian casinos will pick up the variable option as soon as the games are available as they have fewer legal restrictions. Or less red tape.
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mustangsally
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May 16th, 2015 at 4:16:44 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

When I saw that nobody was discussing this already, I felt compelled <snip>

that is so sweet of you
what are you going to discuss about the SB9 here?
sounds interesting

I know your game (?) has been discussed over at 2+2 forum also (i get around)
some (not sum) still are laughing you know that

Quote: Ahigh

I thought that readers of this forum might like to be aware of these stories, and I wish everyone on the forum the best.

thanks!

now is there a way to sit in a nice chair while playing the pinball machine?
looks like the model got a kink in her back (not from her extra-large boobs)
hope not from playing pinball, but looks so


hope you do not mind i share these photos


in 10 years









we MAY all be 10 years older
some even more

thank you for sharing!
Mully

now discuss SB9 folks!
I Heart Vi Hart
98Clubs
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May 16th, 2015 at 6:50:16 PM permalink
So as part of NV-SB9 does this allow a game such as Pachinko ( Vertical pinball using a pin-board live or video) or Pachislo (Reel stop slot machine)?

Asian customers especially Japanese go for these games big time. In traditional thinking, the games could pay off as points good in a "Parlor Store"
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
tringlomane
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May 16th, 2015 at 8:56:56 PM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

So as part of NV-SB9 does this allow a game such as Pachinko ( Vertical pinball using a pin-board live or video) or Pachislo (Reel stop slot machine)?

Asian customers especially Japanese go for these games big time. In traditional thinking, the games could pay off as points good in a "Parlor Store"



Seeing pachinko machines at Resorts World might be interesting...haha
JohnnyQ
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May 16th, 2015 at 9:10:14 PM permalink
Tring:

What exactly do you mean by a "Parlor store". I don't think we have those in the mid-west.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
Ahigh
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May 17th, 2015 at 10:30:16 AM permalink
Thanks for all the welcomes back. I wish I had time to post at the frequency I posted in the past, but I just don't have as much time as I would like to do that.

I'll keep up with the discussions and provide corrections when I can for mistakes (EG: assuming that enabling large denomination AP with up to 23% player advantage means the casino won't like that). But most of this should be easy to figure out for anyone who has the time to absorb the information.
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tringlomane
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May 17th, 2015 at 1:20:27 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Tring:

What exactly do you mean by a "Parlor store". I don't think we have those in the mid-west.



98Clubs was referring to the set up of Pachinko Parlors in Japan I think. Gambling is technically illegal there, but pachinko balls can be turned in for "stuff", which will be bought back for "cash" nearby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko

With SB9, Nevada could cut out the middleman and offer the game directly for cash in a casino. I would try the game at least once...lol
Zcore13
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May 17th, 2015 at 1:44:39 PM permalink
I used to import Pachislo and Pachinko machines from Japanese Casinos and then refurbish them and sell them. I still have a couple in my garage. There is no skill involved in the machines. They are random just like U.S. slots.



ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
djatc
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May 17th, 2015 at 4:05:33 PM permalink
I saw a TV show in Japan with an advantage pachinko player. Basically all he said was to find loose machines that are paying more then they should, so the parlors are setting the returns day by day and you would have to scout a good machine. No mention of skill.
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Ahigh
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May 18th, 2015 at 9:02:04 AM permalink
Here's another article that talks about our game as it relates to AP and professional play that just went out in the CDC Gaming Reports this morning

http://triblive.com/aande/gambling/8279731-74/game-million-payout#axzz3aT2lu82s
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98Clubs
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May 18th, 2015 at 8:12:48 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

Tring:

What exactly do you mean by a "Parlor store". I don't think we have those in the mid-west.



"Parlor Store" is the American equivilent of an exchange where the prize won is converted into cash. In Pachinko Parlors, you win say a particular chocolate bar. Outside in the alley, a door-front will take that exact chocolate bar and convert it to cash. These door-fronts have several names in Japan, one of which loosely translates as Parlor Store.

Of course in America carnys usually pay in tickets that redeem for a prize, more tickets = better prize. SkeeBall anyone?
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Ahigh
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May 19th, 2015 at 5:47:23 AM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

"Parlor Store" is the American equivilent of an exchange where the prize won is converted into cash. In Pachinko Parlors, you win say a particular chocolate bar. Outside in the alley, a door-front will take that exact chocolate bar and convert it to cash. These door-fronts have several names in Japan, one of which loosely translates as Parlor Store.

Of course in America carnys usually pay in tickets that redeem for a prize, more tickets = better prize. SkeeBall anyone?



My understanding is that in Texas, there are more than 200,000 8-liner machines that are being operated in this fashion.

Here's an example from Google for what these machines sell for:

https://www.8linesupply.com/c/pot-o-gold-board-ready-machines.html

Texas is a black eye to the gambling culture in America. I think part of the problem is that they fight legalizing gambling so hard from a legal standpoint that they end up with the worse alternative: illegal gambling.

I grew up in Dallas Fort Worth, so I know what it used to be like when there was not even a state lottery or ANY form of gambling. Even the state lottery was very controversial when it was introduced. The communities in Texas are often very religious and against gambling of any kind. All of my family in Texas was staunchly against gambling and did not participate, in general, in any way shape or form.

My great grandmother was such a big anti-gambling type that she would not let a card or a die enter her house. Not even for a board game.
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Ahigh
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May 19th, 2015 at 9:15:36 PM permalink
Stephen and I made this video today to explain some things about how variable payback and skilled gaming works.

Having some technical difficulties .. will repost soon.
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Ahigh
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May 21st, 2015 at 7:15:16 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Stephen and I made this video today to explain some things about how variable payback and skilled gaming works.

Having some technical difficulties .. will repost soon.



Click image to watch video. Full screen at 60 frames per second if you have a fast enough computer with a HD display.

It think it's funny that the you tube preview window on this site is still 4:3 aspect ratio. But I guess it's like how video poker in 2015 still looks like Vic 20 graphics. Gambling, technology is way behind.


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AceTwo
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May 21st, 2015 at 12:35:13 PM permalink
I do not get it.
Such games will really have a Positive EV for the skilled player?
And are the casinos really not only going to allow Advantage playing BUT also promote it.
I always thought that casinos thought of advantage play equivalent to cheating (minor detail for them that AP is legal whereas cheating is illegal)

Where is the catch?
Zcore13
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May 21st, 2015 at 12:41:35 PM permalink
Quote: AceTwo

I do not get it.
Such games will really have a Positive EV for the skilled player?
And are the casinos really not only going to allow Advantage playing BUT also promote it.
I always thought that casinos thought of advantage play equivalent to cheating (minor detail for them that AP is legal whereas cheating is illegal)

Where is the catch?



Don't worry. The game has no chance for widespread casino placements. It's a great game, don't get me wrong, but it's an arcade game. A pinball machine 30 years past the time Pinball was popular. I'd have fun with it at my house, but there's a reason you don't see arcades in every town anymore.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Mooseton
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May 21st, 2015 at 12:53:19 PM permalink
Up to 98% return. Not going to attract like they want it to. MHO is the reason all the young gamblers got in the poker boom was because there was positive expectation for the pros. Lots thought they could make a livings its poker; some did; many failed. This bill needs to have no restriction on the upper limit to be extremely attractive. Even a 1 or 2% possible player advantage would be attractive. Once you get people thinking 'I could make money at this' with real pros(winners who are able to make a living) and recreational players(sometimes winners, long term losers) THEN you would see a boom of interest from their target market, the young'ens. But this bill is a step in the right direction of attracting them but obviously it does not go far enough.

Edit: This bill is like asking people to come lose their money in a different way than usual. If casinos want new gamblers, there MUST be a possible player advantage. Losing isn't attractive. The possibility and dream of quitting your job, moving to Vegas, and making your money on some Street Fighter-like game (or any popular title) that you were once good at is. The sky must be the limit or else things will stay mostly the same.
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
Mooseton
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May 21st, 2015 at 12:56:31 PM permalink
My two cents for Ahigh: If there were some sort of progressive (with no cap which should be illegal anyhow!!) or even multiple progressives this game would garner more interest. Good luck to you.
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
thecesspit
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May 21st, 2015 at 1:01:29 PM permalink
Quote: AceTwo

I do not get it.
Such games will really have a Positive EV for the skilled player?
And are the casinos really not only going to allow Advantage playing BUT also promote it.
I always thought that casinos thought of advantage play equivalent to cheating (minor detail for them that AP is legal whereas cheating is illegal)

Where is the catch?



The game transfers money from the bad players to the good players, with the casino taking a cut. The average score needed to break even will go up over time, presumably plateauing. Score high enough, and you have +EV on the spin.

The game looks interesting enough, but for my money, there's far too much of the inner workings on EV and payback and the like on show. It's cool it exists, but for Joe Blow, this needs to be simpler. The skilled player will want that info. The spinning pay out disc, to my eyes, looks all wrong and doesn't make me think winning or losing, or giving feedback on why you failed to win. There's too many things you can tweak to play a game. People want to shove in $5, take a turn at a game and maybe win something. They don't want to tweak every setting, and look at pages of numbers.

Playing price is far too steep, but that's details.

I can see there being a market for games with elements of skill, but this looks 3 times to complex. I haven't done any more research, while I am sure Ahigh's team has.
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Mooseton
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May 21st, 2015 at 1:05:38 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Don't worry. The game has no chance for widespread casino placements. It's a great game, don't get me wrong, but it's an arcade game. A pinball machine 30 years past the time Pinball was popular. I'd have fun with it at my house, but there's a reason you don't see arcades in every town anymore.


ZCore13



Zcore, I believe Ahigh requested you to leave him alone back when he was active here. I usually like your posts but I gotta ask, why don't you do the honorable thing and leave him and his thread alone?
$1700, 18, 19, 1920, 40, 60,... :/ Thx 'Do it again'. I'll try
teliot
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May 21st, 2015 at 1:18:17 PM permalink
How long does a single decision take, on average? That is, for a one unit bet, how long, on average, for that bet to be resolved?
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Zcore13
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May 21st, 2015 at 2:02:05 PM permalink
Quote: Mooseton

Zcore, I believe Ahigh requested you to leave him alone back when he was active here. I usually like your posts but I gotta ask, why don't you do the honorable thing and leave him and his thread alone?



First, I did not mention his name nor his company. I talked about the game itself, which I have played, and the status of pinball in the U.S.

Second, this is a public forum. I really don't care what he requested. I purposely avoided responding to any of his posts. Another member questioned the game and I gave my personal (I like the game) and professional (It will never work) opinion.

It doesn't matter who the name of the person is/was that posts something I don't agree with, I'm going to call them out on it. We are here to discuss things, not just agree with everything. If there are apposing views, let's here them. If there's been a placement since last November, let's here about it. I'll go play it again for real money. If I'm wrong on something I say, tell me why. If I'm proven wrong, I'll admit it. So far, no admissions needed in the DI, casinos manipulating dice or $100 pinball machines making into the mainstream of gambling topics.



ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AxelWolf
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May 21st, 2015 at 2:53:59 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

Click image to watch video. Full screen at 60 frames per second if you have a fast enough computer with a HD display.

It think it's funny that the you tube preview window on this site is still 4:3 aspect ratio. But I guess it's like how video poker in 2015 still looks like Vic 20 graphics. Gambling, technology is way behind.


People oftentimes like to bet with each other on pinball . Especially the guys you are trying to get interested in this. IE high limit poker players.

You guys should add a side bet feature to the software. It should calculate the final score/winner before the final whee spin.

Agian (even without the advantage play aspect) this was the most interesting thing at the gaming expo.

Is this approved yet? Assuming a casino wanted one now can it be installed? I cant believe not one casino has been interested, unless the cost per unit is way to high.

Have you offered a free install to a casino?

I actually think only going after the high limit crowd is a mistake. Park one of these outside the Bellagio poker room.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Zcore13
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May 21st, 2015 at 3:31:50 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I actually think only going after the high limit crowd is a mistake. Park one of these outside the Bellagio poker room.



Exactly what I've been saying. I'm guessing the problem is that you can't let player play on a machine for 10 minutes for a $1 or $5 bet on a machine that is going to hold a couple percent. The $100 min pays for the time it takes to play an average game, which if you are good could be a long time.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
MathExtremist
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May 21st, 2015 at 4:23:39 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Quote: AxelWolf

I actually think only going after the high limit crowd is a mistake. Park one of these outside the Bellagio poker room.



Exactly what I've been saying. I'm guessing the problem is that you can't let player play on a machine for 10 minutes for a $1 or $5 bet on a machine that is going to hold a couple percent. The $100 min pays for the time it takes to play an average game, which if you are good could be a long time.


And the win is also in the $100-range, which is entirely antithetical to the millennial mass-market target for SB9. You're trying to convince a 22-year-old Xbox player to fork over $100 to try something he or she has never played before, that's not a good value proposition. This is why the right solution to this problem involves continuous betting in the background while you're playing a longer-running video game. If the player auto-bets in 25c increments, say every 5-6 seconds, then there's nothing scary about the financials because that's exactly how video slots behave. The difference is in what game you're playing.

If you put Temple Run on the casino floor right next to Wolf Run, what do you think will get more play?
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teliot
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May 21st, 2015 at 4:40:22 PM permalink
I watched the whole video. The longer you play, the smaller the red areas get -- a skilled player will eventually make it all green and automatically win. If the game is designed to increase the skill level over time to attain a certain payback, that will effectively lock out new players. If it doesn't raise the skill level to attain paybacks, then there will be advantage play. If you require a player's card (so that you can track the skill of an individual player) then advantage players can easily get around that.

Also, it can take ten minutes to resolve a single game. Even with a 10% house edge, that's not going to work. Could you just sit there with one of the balls on the flipper for an hour while chatting on the phone?

What other ideas are there for these skilled based games? I looked around on the Inter-tubes and can't find anyone else demonstrating one of these. I'd like to get a good idea of what these games are going to look like (not just the vague descriptions in the cited articles.)

M/E have you worked on any of these?
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Zcore13
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May 21st, 2015 at 5:05:16 PM permalink
Quote: teliot



What other ideas are there for these skilled based games? I looked around on the Inter-tubes and can't find anyone else demonstrating one of these. I'd like to get a good idea of what these games are going to look like (not just the vague descriptions in the cited articles.)



I haven't seen any with my own eyes yet, but I know you're going to see games like Candy Crush pop up. It would open up a whole new category of player to the casinos.

IGT already has a game developed where players play the classis arcade game Centipede. Every part of the centipede hit wins you money back toward your wager.

Bally has a gambling version of skee ball ready to go.

What if players could play an NHL or NFL based game and win if they scored or for each first down. This is the future. This is what everyone up to age 50 or so right now grew up with.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
rxwine
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May 21st, 2015 at 5:16:42 PM permalink
I would have called VP a skill based game we've had since the 70s. Correct strategy vs. guessing. Skill.
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kewlj
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May 21st, 2015 at 5:37:06 PM permalink
So if the Nevada legislature passes a bill allowing and encouraging advantage play and 'skilled' players', and the casino industry embraces such a bill and technology and places such gaming in their casino, isn't that going to contradict their stance that they need to be allowed to ban and bar (discriminated against) certain advantage or 'skilled' players? They can't have it both ways. This sounds like a lawsuit, Bob Nersesian, would be licking his chops at.
teliot
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May 21st, 2015 at 5:52:12 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

So if the Nevada legislature passes a bill allowing and encouraging advantage play and 'skilled' players', and the casino industry embraces such a bill and technology and places such gaming in their casino, isn't that going to contradict their stance that they need to be allowed to ban and bar (discriminated against) certain advantage or 'skilled' players? They can't have it both ways. This sounds like a lawsuit, Bob Nersesian, would be licking his chops at.

Aside from AHigh's game, I don't think that getting over 100% will be part of game design. If it is possible to get > 100%, a company will get a quick lesson (over a long weekend) until the game gets pulled. From what I read, a game may have, for example, a range, 88% to 98%, with a skilled player getting 98%. But, you are right about the possibility of backoffs -- if a skilled player is occupying a seat, it won't be as profitable for the casino as an unskilled player occupying that same seat, and all that follows.
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kewlj
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May 21st, 2015 at 6:00:51 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

Aside from AHigh's game, I don't think that getting over 100% will be possible. A game may have a range, 88% to 98%, with a skilled player getting 98%. But, you are right about the possibility of backoffs -- if a skilled player is occupying a seat, it won't be as profitable for the casino as an unskilled player occupying that same seat, and all that follows.



Even if they end up staying below 100%, they will still be promoting and embracing skilled play and skilled players. Seems like an easy argument to me that a casino (and the industry) can not both promote and invite 'skilled' players and then want the ability to back them off or bar them.

I think this would open the door to, really more than open the door, I would say almost guarantee a New Jersey like ruling that Nevada Casinos can not bar 'skilled' players. That in turn would force worse conditions in blackjack and other games as the casino's protect themselves, just like occurred in NJ.
EvenBob
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May 21st, 2015 at 6:19:37 PM permalink
Quote: teliot


Also, it can take ten minutes to resolve a single game. Even with a 10% house edge, that's not going to work. Could you just sit there with one of the balls on the flipper for an hour while chatting on the phone?



What's odd is, that could easily be concluded
before a machine was ever built. So why
was it constructed? There are half a dozen
good reasons why a casino would never
want one. The biggest being, not enough
games per hour. $100 a game is nothing.
Why wife can lose $100 on a penny slot
in 5min, I see her do it all the time.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
rxwine
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May 21st, 2015 at 6:28:13 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

if a skilled player is occupying a seat, it won't be as profitable for the casino as an unskilled player occupying that same seat, and all that follows.



One way to knock a skilled player off in a game like pinball, is to have, (I don't know what you call it) more traps start to open for the ball to drain as the game continues on the same play.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
AxelWolf
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May 21st, 2015 at 9:06:35 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

One way to knock a skilled player off in a game like pinball, is to have, (I don't know what you call it) more traps start to open for the ball to drain as the game continues on the same play.

? Are you stating the obvious or did I miss something?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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May 21st, 2015 at 9:13:13 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

ICould you just sit there with one of the balls on the flipper for an hour while chatting on the phone?

Not sure why that matters. You can sit and and do the same thing in the middle of a VP hand.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
rxwine
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May 21st, 2015 at 9:59:06 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

? Are you stating the obvious or did I miss something?



Probably stating the obvious. The idea was brought up that skilled players would keep more profitable unskilled players off. But one can circumvent that with a game of increasing difficulty.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Ahigh
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May 22nd, 2015 at 1:45:57 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

Aside from AHigh's game, I don't think that getting over 100% will be part of game design. If it is possible to get > 100%, a company will get a quick lesson (over a long weekend) until the game gets pulled. From what I read, a game may have, for example, a range, 88% to 98%, with a skilled player getting 98%. But, you are right about the possibility of backoffs -- if a skilled player is occupying a seat, it won't be as profitable for the casino as an unskilled player occupying that same seat, and all that follows.



You want the average dollar bet to return the desired house advantage. Not awarding positive EV ever on any wagers is the simple solution, but there are multiple solutions assuming that a skill measurement has variability in it for each player.

Here are some related patents on self-adjusting thresholds for performance in skill based arcade games:

http://www.google.com/patents/US8764531
https://www.google.com/patents/US4685677

I was inspired by Pat and Steve's work. They are amazing developers. Really amazing knowledge of gameplay that goes far beyond what most people can comprehend, frankly.

From left to right, Pat Lawlor, Aaron Hightower, Stephen Ritchie, the three guys in the above two patents.



This photo was taken at the show in Las Vegas in 2006 when UltraPin was given an award for most innovative product at the show or something and after Jim DeRose and GlobalVR presented the game as their product. Jim DeRose chose to not send me to this show to see the video pinball unveiled after I was promised to be able to go, and I made an ultimatum to send me or I quit, and I quit the first day I was an official GlobalVR employee.



This photo was when I VERY randomly ran into Steve Ritchie the night before when I was lost at 3am in the Flamingo. I told Steve Ritchie about how Jim DeRose chose to let me go as opposed to sending me to that show, and Steve advised me to "take the high road" and "just say positive things."

This whole thing about video pinball is a decade old. And even Steve Ritchie says that video pinball will never be done properly. So does Gary Stern. That's not even the gambling part.

When I was working with Silicon Graphics and Nintendo, every single component of the Nintendo 64 was new and it was all untested and different. There were so many times that people would say, "this is not going to work" or "this is not how you do this."



Guess what Miyamoto's response was? Takeda? One memorable response from Takeda about a full year slip as a result of new technology not being quite ready, "there will be many Christmases."

I can't say that I fell in love with either the Nintendo 64 or even Pilotwings 64. I just wanted to work on an arcade racer which is why I went to Atari.

But everyone I've talked to has their opinion based on MINUTES of thought. This has been in the pipeline for quite a while, and it will work.

Just my two cents.
aahigh.com
teliot
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May 22nd, 2015 at 6:54:52 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

You want the average dollar bet to return the desired house advantage.

No. I want to know how much the house will make per hour. T-Win = (Average wager) x (avg. house edge) x (avg. hands per hour) x (time played). You can't sell a product unless you can complete this equation. Your job is to provide the values (avg. house edge) and (avg. hands per hour). If you can't do that, you can't sell. That's a fact.

I want to know the avg. hands per hour on your game, assuming the player is playing (and not just leaving a ball on a flipper). You already stated that your avg. house edge is 1%.

With regard to what you stated above, the average bet has nothing to do with the house advantage.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
TomG
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May 22nd, 2015 at 7:42:17 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Even if they end up staying below 100%, they will still be promoting and embracing skilled play and skilled players. Seems like an easy argument to me that a casino (and the industry) can not both promote and invite 'skilled' players and then want the ability to back them off or bar them.

I think this would open the door to, really more than open the door, I would say almost guarantee a New Jersey like ruling that Nevada Casinos can not bar 'skilled' players. That in turn would force worse conditions in blackjack and other games as the casino's protect themselves, just like occurred in NJ.



I don't see it as such an easy argument. Right now, when I sit at a table or make a bet at the sports book or even collect winnings, the casino representative tells me, "Good Luck." It's not a valid argument to say that the casino told me to have good luck therefore they can't kick me out simply for having good luck.

Right now the casinos can refuse a bet from anyone for any reason. I highly doubt that will change just because they allow gambling on video games
thecesspit
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May 22nd, 2015 at 8:53:31 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I haven't seen any with my own eyes yet, but I know you're going to see games like Candy Crush pop up. It would open up a whole new category of player to the casinos.



I've played Candy Crush for tickets 3 years ago in an arcade in Seattle. 'Skilled' based games already exist in the arcades, you just gotta change tickets to dollars.

I can see micro task games being popular. Games that take 30 seconds or so to play. Minesweeper, pattern matching, organizing and simple, iterative puzzles. I can think of examples in the board game 'Enigma', where players race to solve a variety of micro puzzles.

I can see $5 pinball working if there's a massive prize... then you can have very low EV. I've played pinball heads up for dollars with friends. I can see folks dropping $5 to win $1000. But the method of the win needs to be much simpler to grasp.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Zcore13
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May 22nd, 2015 at 8:57:41 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I've played Candy Crush for tickets 3 years ago in an arcade in Seattle. 'Skilled' based games already exist in the arcades, you just gotta change tickets to dollars.

I can see micro task games being popular. Games that take 30 seconds or so to play. Minesweeper, pattern matching, organizing and simple, iterative puzzles. I can think of examples in the board game 'Enigma', where players race to solve a variety of micro puzzles.

I can see $5 pinball working if there's a massive prize... then you can have very low EV. I've played pinball heads up for dollars with friends. I can see folks dropping $5 to win $1000. But the method of the win needs to be much simpler to grasp.



I agree 100% with everything you said. That is all logical and realistic.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
SRiesenberger
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May 22nd, 2015 at 10:52:22 AM permalink
There's so much good energy in this thread! Let's keep it going!

However, there's still some inside-the-box thinking that I will try to ease folks out of. When talking about the negative connotations associated with current Advantage Play, "Vegas 2047" and games that use the NanoTech Advantage will not suffer from that stigma.

To address comments in this thread, let me quote some of the thoughtful contributors:

Quote: EvenBob

Any installs on the pinball yet? Any
news as to when?



We all know that the regulatory and certification process for casino games (machines and tables) takes a long time and requires a lot of investment in paperwork and money. The best answer we can give at this time is that, “we’re working on it every day.” As an example of how long this process can take, Bally debuted their “Friends” slot machine at the Global Gaming Expo (G2E) on September 29, 2014 – a finished, polished machine ready to go into production. Bally just announced that these machines were installed at the ARIA casino on May 15, 2015 – almost 8 months of testing, regulations, compliance, licensing, working with casinos, etc, etc.

Quote: AceTwo

I do not get it.
Such games will really have a Positive EV for the skilled player?
And are the casinos really not only going to allow Advantage playing BUT also promote it.
I always thought that casinos thought of advantage play equivalent to cheating (minor detail for them that AP is legal whereas cheating is illegal)
Where is the catch?



The reality is that skilled players will benefit in the long (long, long) run with above-average scores over a lifetime of playing. These skilled players should enjoy not only an above-average return, but a true financial Advantage over the casino (again, in the long, long, long run) but only at the expense of those not-so-skilled players who contribute to the theoretical advantage pool.

Casinos will embrace these lifetime winners the same way they promote slot machine jackpot winners, because the House will always come out ahead no matter how many millions of dollars their lucky players win.

Quote: Zcore13

Don't worry. The game has no chance for widespread casino placements. It's a great game, don't get me wrong, but it's an arcade game. A pinball machine 30 years past the time Pinball was popular. I'd have fun with it at my house, but there's a reason you don't see arcades in every town anymore.
ZCore13



Don’t worry. Pinball was simply the first game we chose to develop for a number of technological reasons. Perhaps “Vegas 2047” can rekindle some of those old reflexes that older players remember from 30 years ago. The fact of the matter is that ANY game of skill can be operated alongside the NanoTech Advantage. Skeeball, Centipede, Candy Crush, Temple Run: the mechanics in all of these games are welcome, but I would expect that the presentation has to change in order to match game time with cost. Also, we’re not worried about widespread casino placements; more about that below.

Quote: Mooseton

Up to 98% return. Not going to attract like they want it to. MHO is the reason all the young gamblers got in the poker boom was because there was positive expectation for the pros. Lots thought they could make a livings its poker; some did; many failed. This bill needs to have no restriction on the upper limit to be extremely attractive. Even a 1 or 2% possible player advantage would be attractive. Once you get people thinking 'I could make money at this' with real pros(winners who are able to make a living) and recreational players(sometimes winners, long term losers) THEN you would see a boom of interest from their target market, the young'ens. But this bill is a step in the right direction of attracting them but obviously it does not go far enough.

Edit: This bill is like asking people to come lose their money in a different way than usual. If casinos want new gamblers, there MUST be a possible player advantage. Losing isn't attractive. The possibility and dream of quitting your job, moving to Vegas, and making your money on some Street Fighter-like game (or any popular title) that you were once good at is. The sky must be the limit or else things will stay mostly the same.



AGEM took a baby step in the right direction with their “88%-98%” example, and we agree with Mooseton’s assumption wholeheartedly. However, the only way to offer Advantage Play to the skilled players by employing the NanoTech Advantage, is (unfortunately) to collect the advantage that unskilled players give away by having below average games. The way that the AGEM example would work with the NanoTech Advantage is that 88% is the desired Payback set by the casino, 98% is the maximum advantage a player could achieve by earning the highest score to-date on the machine. However, you’d have to allow an unskilled player to receive a 78% payback if they somehow earned the lowest score on the machine. You can deduce by this example, then, that reducing the penalty for that lowest-scoring game to 75% (Nevada state minimum for slot machines), you could award up to a 101% payback for the high-scoring player. Players who are willing to grind out that 1%, are similar in our observation to players who play Full Pay Deuces Wild video poker for a 0.76% edge over the House. It makes sense (cents?) for the casinos to keep these max bets at $1.25 since this particular game is beatable with perfect play! With “Vegas 2047” even the highest-skilled player can get an unlucky bounce or have an off game. Even if a player could score the high score (by 100 points) on every successive game, there would eventually be no more Advantage to award, but this only happens in theory. In practice, through months of development and play at the G2E show, we only encountered this ‘lock-out’ behavior ONCE. After one more below-average game, there was theoretical advantage to be awarded again.

Quote: thecesspit

The game transfers money from the bad players to the good players, with the casino taking a cut. The average score needed to break even will go up over time, presumably plateauing. Score high enough, and you have +EV on the spin.
The game looks interesting enough, but for my money, there's far too much of the inner workings on EV and payback and the like on show. It's cool it exists, but for Joe Blow, this needs to be simpler. The skilled player will want that info. The spinning pay out disc, to my eyes, looks all wrong and doesn't make me think winning or losing, or giving feedback on why you failed to win. There's too many things you can tweak to play a game. People want to shove in $5, take a turn at a game and maybe win something. They don't want to tweak every setting, and look at pages of numbers.
Playing price is far too steep, but that's details.

I can see there being a market for games with elements of skill, but this looks 3 times to complex. I haven't done any more research, while I am sure Ahigh's team has.



The information available in the current version of “Vegas 2047” is out of necessity during development. Remember, this is only a prototype! Any or all of these variables can be selectively deactivated by the operator, the Bet, Win, and Skill Effect settings can be set and unchangeable by the player. If the casino wants to operate the game at $100/play for an even-money bet with NO Skill Effect, that’s their prerogative.

Quote: teliot

No. I want to know how much the house will make per hour. T-Win = (Average wager) x (avg. house edge) x (avg. hands per hour) x (time played). You can't sell a product unless you can complete this equation. Your job is to provide the values (avg. house edge) and (avg. hands per hour). If you can't do that, you can't sell. That's a fact.
I want to know the avg. hands per hour on your game, assuming the player is playing (and not just leaving a ball on a flipper). You already stated that your avg. house edge is 1%.

With regard to what you stated above, the average bet has nothing to do with the house advantage.



Our database shows an average game time of 67 seconds over about 1000 plays. This comes from months of internal play by AHigh and myself (self-proclaimed ‘above-average’ pinball players) and hundreds of plays at the G2E show.
This coincides with our focus on High Limit play, and the game of Baccarat. If you (carefully) observe people playing Baccarat for high stakes, you’ll notice that the average time per resolved bet is much higher than that of low stakes Blackjack play.
Our observation of the game of Baccarat – in the state of Nevada and in Macau – leads us to believe that Asian players who place great value in good luck have found a game that they love. In Nevada in 2013, an average Baccarat table held $5,000,000 for the casino. In Macau in the same year, 91% of gaming revenue was derived from Baccarat. Also, the average Bet (across all games) in Macau was $271 compared to Nevada’s at $20.

All of these elements lead us to believe that there is an underserved market of high-rolling western players with big personalities who are looking for a game where they can bet big, show their skill, come out ahead in the long run, and live the lifestyle reserved for those few successful professional poker players.

We’re not worried about the mass-market. We’re not focused on the slot floor. We’re not looking to entice the penny slot player. We’re not interested in competing with the giant slot manufacturers.

We’re looking to the future of the casino industry and a Las Vegas where visitors come to GAMBLE!

We will also be at G2E 2015 (booth 4116) and are hard at work developing new game technology that will literally blow people away!

STV
-- Stephen Riesenberger Creative Director, Game Designer NanoTech Gaming
Ahigh
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May 23rd, 2015 at 1:26:23 AM permalink
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