MrV
MrV
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December 11th, 2014 at 8:48:25 AM permalink
Quote:

I call foul. If you're going to quote, be accurate about it and don't distort the message you're then going to mock or critique.



You misunderstand.

I did not take his comments out of context.

I snipped the quote in the interests of brevity, not to twist.

Whatever, the notion that "It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well" is short-sighted and naive, in my opinion.

Turn them into informants?

Really?

"What happened here was that we asked the agency to go take steps and put in place programs that were designed to catch the bastards who killed 3,000 of us on 9/11 and make sure it never happened again, and that's exactly what they did. --- Dick Cheney
"What, me worry?"
Gandler
Gandler
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December 11th, 2014 at 10:55:12 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

You misunderstand.

Whatever, the notion that "It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well" is short-sighted and naive, in my opinion.

Turn them into informants?

Really?

"What happened here was that we asked the agency to go take steps and put in place programs that were designed to catch the bastards who killed 3,000 of us on 9/11 and make sure it never happened again, and that's exactly what they did. --- Dick Cheney




It suggests that there is room to reason or even coerce people who are religious extremists. People who join ISIS do NOT care about money, their own well being, their health. There is a reason they get put in more "pain" when you decimate a Koran in from of them than well they are physically abused. They feel that their purpose is to be a dedicated servant to their god.

The idea that they could be turned into informants is beyond naïve, its borderline dangerous and it far underestimates the danger.

They don't care about being treated well. Many of them leave filthy rich families and drop out of college and run off to join terrorist groups (like Osama). What could you possibly bribe him with that his parents couldn't have offered him, but still gave up? They care about their interpretation of the Koran, nothing else, they don't want money, they don't want luxury, they don't want to be treated polite.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess.” -Thomas Paine
Twirdman
Twirdman
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December 11th, 2014 at 11:30:37 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

It suggests that there is room to reason or even coerce people who are religious extremists. People who join ISIS do NOT care about money, their own well being, their health. There is a reason they get put in more "pain" when you decimate a Koran in from of them than well they are physically abused. They feel that their purpose is to be a dedicated servant to their god.

The idea that they could be turned into informants is beyond naïve, its borderline dangerous and it far underestimates the danger.

They don't care about being treated well. Many of them leave filthy rich families and drop out of college and run off to join terrorist groups (like Osama). What could you possibly bribe him with that his parents couldn't have offered him, but still gave up? They care about their interpretation of the Koran, nothing else, they don't want money, they don't want luxury, they don't want to be treated polite.



So again if you believe all of these things to be true and you say that these people cannot possibly be turned and violence and deprivation do nothing against them then why torture them. I mean according to what you say it will not generate any sort of useful information so it seems the only reason to do it is and I want to stress anything done is vengeance not justice and there is a substantial difference.

Also again you are being very naive in thinking that torture will work and it is the only possible thing that will work did you even take a cursory glance at the Senate report specifically

The chart also says that of the 12, nine were subjected to harsh interrogation techniques. The committee says that according to CIA records five of the nine provided information prior to the enhanced interrogation.

"Of the remaining four detainees who did not provide information on Abu Ahmad al-Kuwaiti until after being subjected to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques, three were not substantially questioned on any topic prior to the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques," the committee writes. "All three provided information the CIA assessed to be fabricated and intentionally misleading."


So 5 people gave true information that we didn't even bother checking before torturing them and of the 4 who were tortured to get information 3 were not even asked without being tortured and those 3 made up bullcrap. So lets see 5/5 pretorture and lets be generous and say 1/4 post torture. I know I'd prefer the more effective method that didn't make us lose our humanity and turn us into monsters but I guess that doesn't help at all fulfill a Jack Bauer 24 fantasy so why would we do that. Oh also as an aside that show is just in general a crappy show with a crappy premise.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 11th, 2014 at 1:44:56 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

So again if you believe all of these things to be true and you say that these people cannot possibly be turned and violence and deprivation do nothing against them then why torture them. I mean according to what you say it will not generate any sort of useful information so it seems the only reason to do it is and I want to stress anything done is vengeance not justice and there is a substantial difference.



They can't be turned by us. The best way to turn a true believer (and I have heard this by both former Islam extremsists, as well as what I would consider Christian extremists) is they have to have a self-revelation at how silly their ways are, if somebody tries to interfere with them they will view you as a "misleading Devil" and it does not matter how nice or mean you are, they will not trust any outside information.

My View is that the best way to make people see past religious extremism is allow them to educate themselves without knowing it. (IE put science books in their town, internet accsess, etc...)

But as I have mentioned before, the most effective torture does not involve any physical abuse at all. Its pure mentalism. And I would not even consider this torture. Sleep deprive somebody so they start to lose their brain functionality, and then start desecrating the Koran and showing them cartoons of Muhammad. That will cause far more distress then any physical action would, and would make religious fanatics crack. And nobody could make a humans right issue out of it....

Quote:

Also again you are being very naive in thinking that torture will work and it is the only possible thing that will work did you even take a cursory glance at the Senate report specifically

The chart also says that of the 12, nine were subjected to harsh interrogation techniques. The committee says that according to CIA records five of the nine provided information prior to the enhanced interrogation.



5/12 produced some positive information. 12 known terrorists, these were known killers, people who go around the world causing hate and destruction. I do not even feel slightly bad about 12 terrorist being made a bit uncomfortable for the purpose of saving lives. Even if it saved one life on either side it was worth it in my view.


Quote:

So 5 people gave true information that we didn't even bother checking before torturing them and of the 4 who were tortured to get information 3 were not even asked without being tortured and those 3 made up bullcrap. So lets see 5/5 pretorture and lets be generous and say 1/4 post torture. I know I'd prefer the more effective method that didn't make us lose our humanity and turn us into monsters but I guess that doesn't help at all fulfill a Jack Bauer 24 fantasy so why would we do that. Oh also as an aside that show is just in general a crappy show with a crappy premise.



Never saw that show, don't watch TV. But I still stand by what I said. By that logic I could find a crappy movie that preaches non-interventionism and say "look how bad this movie is, your point is wrong".

Geneva Conventions and Human Rights International Law keeps getting brought up by your side. But only for America, nobody seems concerned if anyone else violated the law. But we are expected to religiously follow it. If somebody breaks the Geneva conventions, and international human rights law, not just once, but literally everyday, should we be obligated to bend over backwards to accommodate them? I don't think so, and I don't feel bad saying that. Comparing waterboarding and sleep deprivation to the things these people did before they were captured is laughable.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess.” -Thomas Paine
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 11th, 2014 at 2:11:58 PM permalink
Lots of riveting podcasts on Sibel Edmonds [operation Gladio] this one on Russ Tice, NSA whisleblower,

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/

Sibel was the most censored person in America, she a FBI whistleblower herself.
Twirdman
Twirdman
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December 11th, 2014 at 3:25:13 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler




5/12 produced some positive information. 12 known terrorists, these were known killers, people who go around the world causing hate and destruction. I do not even feel slightly bad about 12 terrorist being made a bit uncomfortable for the purpose of saving lives. Even if it saved one life on either side it was worth it in my view.



.



The whole quote says 5/12 provided useful information before enhanced interrogation began so unless you believe that torture somehow violates causality and works backwards in time I don't think those 5 are a ringing endorsement of torture especially since many clammed up after torture started.

Also the comment about the show had nothing to do with torture being ineffective that had to deal with more people provided valuable information before being tortured then after.
rxwine
rxwine
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December 11th, 2014 at 4:15:02 PM permalink
I believe I had previously heard some FBI guys say actionable intelligence was gained under normal methods before the CIA showed up. (way back when, when this was in the news before)

Regular interrogation in these situations is actually fairly enhanced already. Nobody goes home after 24 hrs; nobody has a lawyer, like you would in a normal criminal case.

The current CIA director said today, that normal methods of interrogation may have worked just as well in these cases, but there is no way to know, since you can't turn back time and try the other way.

eidt - I believe they do get lawyers like at Gitmo, but that's well after the initial period of containment.
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
Gandler
Gandler
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December 11th, 2014 at 6:25:11 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I believe I had previously heard some FBI guys say actionable intelligence was gained under normal methods before the CIA showed up. (way back when, when this was in the news before)

Regular interrogation in these situations is actually fairly enhanced already. Nobody goes home after 24 hrs; nobody has a lawyer, like you would in a normal criminal case.

The current CIA director said today, that normal methods of interrogation may have worked just as well in these cases, but there is no way to know, since you can't turn back time and try the other way.

eidt - I believe they do get lawyers like at Gitmo, but that's well after the initial period of containment.



But these are not like normal criminal cases. Nor should they be, they are prisoners of war or key targets. People who are not Americans citizens or even members of a state should not have the same rights during capture.

But the FBI may be in Guantomo, but they are not outside National Borders (for the most part, I'm sure you can find some exceptions), but that is The CIA's territories.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess.” -Thomas Paine
Twirdman
Twirdman
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December 11th, 2014 at 8:17:19 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

But these are not like normal criminal cases. Nor should they be, they are prisoners of war or key targets. People who are not Americans citizens or even members of a state should not have the same rights during capture.

But the FBI may be in Guantomo, but they are not outside National Borders (for the most part, I'm sure you can find some exceptions), but that is The CIA's territories.



You haven't said why we should torture these people if you can get actionable intelligence without the use of torture. The CIA report seems to indicate in these cases torture worked less well then traditional interrogation so what reason is there to torture other then a visceral animalistic desire for vengeance.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 11th, 2014 at 9:06:03 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

You haven't said why we should torture these people if you can get actionable intelligence without the use of torture. The CIA report seems to indicate in these cases torture worked less well then traditional interrogation so what reason is there to torture other then a visceral animalistic desire for vengeance.



I strongly doubt it was a case of animistic vengeance. To get into the CIA let alone as a high level field agent you have to go through so many psychological tests and emotion tests. There is a reason so many seem so mechanical when you talk to them. I doubt they get any pleasure from waterboarding somebody, its probably just another task of the day like entering files into a computer.

But we don't know all of the details. We know in some cases they do work (and have worked, such as the attack that was prevented by the UK). But my opinion is if there is even a slight chance of it working it is worth it if other options are exhausted. I feel no sympathy for people who have killed countless people while planning to kill countless more, and not in pleasant ways. I can't feel sorry for somebody having water dumped on them or forced to stay awake for a few hours, when if the situation is reversed, they would be chopping the captive into pieces, except often purely for resolve not for information.

I find it sadly ironic that so much time is being debated about this handful of times this was used in the last decade (which I don't even view as an issue, its a plausible option in an already limited toolbox). When the people this is used on often kill more people a day then America has waterboarded in the last two decades... Its just politics, look at who opened the case. People want to make America look like the villian, and its an easy task when so many people in America love to jump on board.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess.” -Thomas Paine

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