RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 12:49:23 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

What is interesting is gunfire had already occurred, and Brown was running away. Then for some reason he changed his mind, turned around, and started to charge a police officer who had already fired a weapon at him.

Or perhaps he wasn't charging and just turned around. Perhaps his head down was a reaction to being shot. Ever bend over when you're injured?

It's easier to accept the first part of the narrative if Brown had been killed in the fight at the car. The second part of the narrative once he is 35ft from the officer is not so straightforward.

Not sure if the printed narrative is out there yet from the grand jury testimony.



I don't know what happened and I have not read all the testimony, so I am not sure what exactly happened. My only point was that some seem to run with one version of the story and not even consider the other in order to match their narrative.

My opinion is that Mr. Brown did things that ultimately caused his death that could have been prevented. Was it the drugs?
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 12:52:12 PM permalink
http://m.ustream.tv/recorded/55837049

This is from a stream from last night. Pretty heartwarming moment about 70% of the way through where this black clergyman stands up and starts giving a speech then the protesters lock arms and start beating on their chest in unison.
vailedJOY
vailedJOY
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 9
Joined: Nov 24, 2014
November 26th, 2014 at 12:52:41 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

From your story:

"Rioting begins. Rioters moving away from the police begin smashing windows as they travel down the street. Looting begins. Some took advantage of the chaos and began stealing from stores. Molotov cocktails begin flying and establishments start being burned to the ground."

If I believed the narrative of the story--that laws were broken by the police in how the attempted to disperse the crowd--how does that move to smashing windows, stealing, and burning unrelated things? Those things are unlawful in our system and "two wrongs don't make a right" sums it up pretty well--if your rights are infringed on in some way, protest, get arrested peacefully if necessary, take it to court as need. Your rights being violated does not give you the right to violate the rights of others.



Totally agree. The early video of brown stealing and assaulting a storeowner shows the type of person the community is rallying around. Described as a "young boy".
Lets face it....this hulking domineering MAN was not going to find the next cure for cancer in his ingoing life. He was going to inflict pain on others, over and over.
The thing we will never know is, how many people in the future was saved from the brutality of this man before he ended up in prison. You know...the man that assaulted a cop that was seated in a car. The MAN that overpowered a store owner physically just so he can steal cigars. It wasn't going to get any better for the community with this MAN in it. Was a woman saved from rape? Was a storeowner saved from a serious injury. We will never know.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 12:54:40 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

From your story:

"Rioting begins. Rioters moving away from the police begin smashing windows as they travel down the street. Looting begins. Some took advantage of the chaos and began stealing from stores. Molotov cocktails begin flying and establishments start being burned to the ground."

If I believed the narrative of the story--that laws were broken by the police in how the attempted to disperse the crowd--how does that move to smashing windows, stealing, and burning unrelated things? Those things are unlawful in our system and "two wrongs don't make a right" sums it up pretty well--if your rights are infringed on in some way, protest, get arrested peacefully if necessary, take it to court as need. Your rights being violated does not give you the right to violate the rights of others.



Not sure what you mean by "if I believed the narrative of the story".
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 1:00:06 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Not sure what you mean by "if I believed the narrative of the story".



Quote: RonC

If I believed the narrative of the story--that laws were broken by the police in how the attempted to disperse the crowd--how does that move to smashing windows, stealing, and burning unrelated things?"



The story comes with a point of view, just like many (most?) news stories. The "bias" in your story exists as surely as the liberal or conservative bias exists in others. There are very few unbiased accounts of anything.

I don't believe the narrative of the story at all. If I did accept the timeline and believed the narrative, I still could not justify the unlawful harm to the property of others. The problem exists between the police, who supposedly violated the law, and the people who were wronged.

The liquor store owner had nothing to do with it. Yet his property was harmed.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 1:13:27 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

The story comes with a point of view, just like many (most?) news stories. The "bias" in your story exists as surely as the liberal or conservative bias exists in others. There are very few unbiased accounts of anything.

I don't believe the narrative of the story at all. If I did accept the timeline and believed the narrative, I still could not justify the unlawful harm to the property of others. The problem exists between the police, who supposedly violated the law, and the people who were wronged.

The liquor store owner had nothing to do with it. Yet his property was harmed.



All news media is going to be biased one way or another. This news media just provides a bias thats different from the typical left/right mainstream media. The timeline of the story is verifiable through the streams. How do you feel about them destroying the police car?
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 2:14:50 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

All news media is going to be biased one way or another. This news media just provides a bias thats different from the typical left/right mainstream media. The timeline of the story is verifiable through the streams.



This bias seems to blame "the man" for everything. I have to take your word for the timeline being verifiable but I'll just say that some things happen in seconds that change everything and aren't always picked up by cameras. Does that mean they didn't happen?

Quote: rudeboyoi

How do you feel about them destroying the police car?



That was a criminal act and is despicable. The police car belongs to all of the citizens of Ferguson; those that live there paid for it with their tax money and they had no reason to destroy it.

Protest. Contest. Litigate. Be angry. Just don't hurt people or the things that belong to people. It is a pretty simple concept, I htink.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 2:47:50 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

The police car belongs to all of the citizens of Ferguson; those that live there paid for it with their tax money and they had no reason to destroy it.



By that logic I could argue the looting of stores was justified since their taxmoney went to support the police force.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
November 26th, 2014 at 2:51:38 PM permalink
Quote: captainmajor

Can you imagine a scenario where a reasonable person could fear imminent great bodily harm or death while being attacked by an UNARMED(tm) man? Because I sure can.

The overemphasis on UNARMED(tm) is intended to imply that Wilson could not have reasonably fears for his life or great bodily harm. Fortunately both in reality and at law "unarmed" is just one fact that informs us about what a defendant could have reasonably apprehended at the time.

But the overarching point is that there at tons of times where shooting an unarmed man is perfectly justified.



When I read your posts my first thought was that you are in law enforcement. My second thought was wow, this guy has a good head on his shoulders. Don't be a stranger, captainmajor.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 2:55:02 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

By that logic I could argue the looting of stores was justified since their tax money went to support the police force.



Do you think that destroying things that don't belong to you is okay?

You can parse words however you want; it doesn't change a thing. They destroyed things they had no right to destroy.

Those that did it are criminals and should pay a price for their crimes. Looters, rioters, property destroyers, etc.
strictlyAP
strictlyAP
  • Threads: 116
  • Posts: 983
Joined: Jun 20, 2012
November 26th, 2014 at 3:00:47 PM permalink
agree
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 3:37:46 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

Do you think that destroying things that don't belong to you is okay?

You can parse words however you want; it doesn't change a thing. They destroyed things they had no right to destroy.

Those that did it are criminals and should pay a price for their crimes. Looters, rioters, property destroyers, etc.



I dont believe the looting was right but I have no problem with the police car being destroyed. I guess the only valid argument without violating the NAP (non-aggression principle) would be if a citizen of ferguson destroyed the police car it would be okay because they "own" it.
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 3:37:51 PM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

From what I understand of these events in Ferguson, Mike Brown was responsible for his own tragedy.



Suicide by cop?
"What, me worry?"
RogerKint
RogerKint
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 1916
Joined: Dec 5, 2011
November 26th, 2014 at 3:41:29 PM permalink
"Looters" is an offensive term. We prefer "undocumented shoppers".
100% risk of ruin
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 3:56:07 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

I dont believe the looting was right but I have no problem with the police car being destroyed. I guess the only valid argument without violating the NAP (non-aggression principle) would be if a citizen of ferguson destroyed the police car it would be okay because they "own" it.



It has been proven that there are a large number of non-citizens of Ferguson causing the problems.

Destroying the police car is not alright under NAP, or at least it shouldn't be, since it is an aggressive action. The idea of the citizens owning it is valid--but they don't "own" it outright, so they have no right to destroy the property of others.
RonC
RonC
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 4:04:02 PM permalink
Where was the National Guard when this started? They have pretty much helped restore order. Why the delay?
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 4:11:14 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

It has been proven that there are a large number of non-citizens of Ferguson causing the problems.

Destroying the police car is not alright under NAP, or at least it shouldn't be, since it is an aggressive action. The idea of the citizens owning it is valid--but they don't "own" it outright, so they have no right to destroy the property of others.



Yah I dont doubt it was likelier that it was out of towners that destroyed the cop car. I was just stating the only possible legitimate argument to destroy it. Otherwise it would just be "Me no like cops. Cop car burn. Me feel good." which isnt an argument.
sc15
sc15
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 594
Joined: Sep 28, 2014
November 26th, 2014 at 4:36:29 PM permalink
It's a good thing that cop didn't get indicted.

Look at the reality of it here. You have a large black teenager who just committed a crime and is fleeing from a cop. There's a significant amount of those situations where the cop ends up getting a weapon pulled on them or they get assaulted.

If the cop happened to be black there wouldn't even be a story here. When's the last time you heard about a black cop shooting a black kid in the news? That happens all the time too but it's never a story.

And let's be honest here, it's an 18 year old already stealing from a store and then assaulting a store clerk. There's no loss to society here.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 26th, 2014 at 6:20:03 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

Where was the National Guard when this started? They have pretty much helped restore order. Why the delay?



Quite likely it was intentional. Let them riot and burn some energy off then restore order is safer than trying to keep everything from blowing up for days or weeks. Just like the safest way to "defuse" a bomb it to let it go off in an open area where it will not hurt the person defusing it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 12166
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 7:12:57 PM permalink
A defense attorney looking at the grand jury testimony thinks the jury was steered. That officer Wilson was treated with kid gloves and witnesses who corroborated the officer's story went unchallenged and stories that didn't were challenged.

Did they video any of this?

This is the kind of thing which will definitely agitate the protesters. I wouldn't blame them, if the process that went down wasn't as fair as portrayed.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/events-leading-darren-wilson-shooting-michael-brown-article-1.2024569
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
MrV
MrV
  • Threads: 364
  • Posts: 8158
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
November 26th, 2014 at 7:16:28 PM permalink
Hmmm, this guy's had enough.

car runs down protesters
"What, me worry?"
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 27th, 2014 at 7:55:26 AM permalink
Protesters might try to shutdown the macys thanksgiving day parade today.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 27th, 2014 at 8:06:14 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Protesters might try to shutdown the macys thanksgiving day parade today.



Going strong on TV right now, but let them try. It will turn the nation even more against them.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 27th, 2014 at 8:09:43 AM permalink
I had to go to the dump today but it was closed, anyone else notice this in their town?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
terapined
terapined
  • Threads: 89
  • Posts: 6088
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
November 27th, 2014 at 9:23:26 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I had to go to the dump today but it was closed, anyone else notice this in their town?


Arlo noticed many years ago :-)
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 27th, 2014 at 9:26:57 AM permalink
So there were attemped protests. Google "stop the parade". Watching the parade on tv now. From a journalistic persepective, is it unethical they havent mentioned it? Acting like nothing happened? Or do they have no responsibilty to do so? Im not really sure when the parade actually started but this isnt live on tv just edited footage.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
November 27th, 2014 at 9:32:59 AM permalink
I wonder if the act that just happened is offensive to conjoined twins.
Boz
Boz
  • Threads: 155
  • Posts: 5701
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
November 27th, 2014 at 9:53:15 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

So there were attemped protests. Google "stop the parade". Watching the parade on tv now. From a journalistic persepective, is it unethical they havent mentioned it? Acting like nothing happened? Or do they have no responsibilty to do so? Im not really sure when the parade actually started but this isnt live on tv just edited footage.



I would assume you are seeing it on 3 hour West Coast delay.
djatc
djatc
  • Threads: 83
  • Posts: 4477
Joined: Jan 15, 2013
November 27th, 2014 at 10:50:12 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

Protesters might try to shutdown the macys thanksgiving day parade today.



Awesome I actually have a reason to watch this parade this year
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
Toes14
Toes14
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 455
Joined: May 6, 2010
November 27th, 2014 at 1:49:11 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I don't think I have to say this, but I'm not in the slightest excusing or defending the carnage. I am saying that it would have been better for the community if the matter had gone to trial, no matter the verdict. In a GJ proceeding, only one side is heard. In a trial, both are.

Trayvon Martin was in my backyard. I think a lot of the reason why we didn't get these kind of riots was because the case went to trial and the people feeling wronged had their day in court. But the protesters here were numerous and loud, much more so than what's been happening in Ferguson - marches of hundreds of thousands, 24/7 coverage for months, agitators spooling up the mobs, all the rest.

I should amend one previous thing I said; the prosecutor has decided, very unusually, to release some if not all of the evidence of the GJ proceedings, so it's not as secret as usual. I don't know yet whether they're releasing transcripts or deliberations of the GJ itself. They're saying they are not releasing the number of votes each way on whether to indict.



Babs - I've lived in St. Louis 50.5 of my 51 years. Used to drive through Ferguson every day in the early to mid 80's on my way to college (University of Missouri-St. Louis is 2-3 miles from where the looting/burning/rioting occurred). Played soccer in a park 1/2 mile from where Michael Brown was shot. I know the area and the population there better than most people.

Believe me when I say that nothing short of a guilty verdict in a trail would have prevented the carnage. Had he been indicted and then found not guilty in a criminal trial, you still would have seen the destruction that occurred, just on different days, months from now.

I know it's unusual for them to release all of the evidence, but that was a last ditch effort to convince some of the pro-indictment crowd that everything was done the right way, that witnesses lied to the media, then recanted or modified their stories, and that there was contradictory evidence in abundance. Unfortunately he was wasting his breath, as that crowd stopping listening the moment he stated that the grand jury failed to indict the officer.

On final thought I here a legal expert state that makes sense to me - if there wasn't sufficient evidence to even indict him for trial, how would there have been enough to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt?
"Bite my Glorious Golden Ass!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez
charles
charles
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 18, 2014
November 27th, 2014 at 3:01:14 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

You are not just saying to video the cops, you are saying have the feds have access to all of it in near instant time. I don't mind some filming of them, I do have a problem with the feds sticking their noses in to departments where no wrong has even been charged. As I said earlier, first place this is unconstitutional and additionally I don't want the feds having more power. It should be done first by internal affairs and next by the state involved. Feds only if they are getting widespread complaints.

I am willing to have a smaller chance of problems in return for letting cops use common sense police work.



Just curious, how many times has a local cop, one of the good old boys you and face love, pulled you over for DWB ?
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
November 27th, 2014 at 3:12:20 PM permalink
DWB? Buzz used to use that term a lot. Is that a Baltimore thing?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
charles
charles
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 18, 2014
November 27th, 2014 at 3:17:21 PM permalink
Baltimore thing detroit thing chicago thing, etc.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 27th, 2014 at 6:10:04 PM permalink
Quote: charles

Just curious, how many times has a local cop, one of the good old boys you and face love, pulled you over for DWB ?



Driving while blindfolded? Never happened.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
charles
charles
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 18, 2014
November 27th, 2014 at 6:14:29 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Driving while blindfolded? Never happened.



Now if only Officer
Barney was color blind !
strictlyAP
strictlyAP
  • Threads: 116
  • Posts: 983
Joined: Jun 20, 2012
November 27th, 2014 at 6:45:42 PM permalink
Glad this was the longest thread I ever created usually they die out quicker
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
charles
charles
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 18, 2014
November 27th, 2014 at 7:03:29 PM permalink
Race relations in America is allways a hot topic. Especially when black criminals and murders are involved.
bobsims
bobsims
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 316
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
November 27th, 2014 at 7:11:47 PM permalink
Quote: charles

Race relations in America is allways a hot topic. Especially when black criminals and murders are involved.



Which is the majority of violent criminals by far.
rxwine
rxwine
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 12166
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
November 27th, 2014 at 7:13:19 PM permalink
What's the typical penalty for looting and rioting? What's the dollar cost in terms of fines or charges to the average participant?
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
bobsims
bobsims
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 316
Joined: Apr 8, 2014
November 27th, 2014 at 7:13:53 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Hmmm, this guy's had enough.

car runs down protesters



"If any demonstrator ever lays down in front of my car, it'll be the last car he'll ever lay down in front of."
George Wallace
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
  • Threads: 34
  • Posts: 3502
Joined: May 10, 2010
November 27th, 2014 at 10:16:52 PM permalink
Quote: charles

Race relations in America is allways a hot topic. Especially when black criminals and murders are involved.

"Murder" is an extremely specific legal term that has not even been charged in this case.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
  • Threads: 34
  • Posts: 3502
Joined: May 10, 2010
November 27th, 2014 at 10:24:18 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

In a GJ proceeding, only one side is heard. In a trial, both are.

Exactly. The prosecution has the field to itself. Officer Wilson was even denied the presence of his legal counsel.
sc15
sc15
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 594
Joined: Sep 28, 2014
November 27th, 2014 at 11:30:23 PM permalink
Not to mention, there's no such thing as "inadmissible" in a grand jury proceeding.

So people can easily be indicted with a load of evidence that would never see the light of day in a trial.
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
  • Threads: 262
  • Posts: 4021
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
November 28th, 2014 at 4:47:07 AM permalink
Very well spoken (ok technically, well written). You can also google this, it is going "viral" and getting some news coverage:

NFL Player Benjamin Watson Facebook Post
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
Mozart
Mozart
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 28, 2014
November 28th, 2014 at 4:59:21 AM permalink
I'm brand new to this board.

I disagree with him about this incident. The cop did nothing wrong!
Clubber Lang, Boxer, Eden = Boo
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
November 28th, 2014 at 5:26:44 AM permalink
Quote: Mozart

I'm brand new to this board. (Just like charles!)

But I disagree with him about this incident. The cop did nothing wrong!



Love you too, Mo. May I call you Mo? :-) Is Charles in Charge? :-)
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 13885
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
November 28th, 2014 at 5:33:47 AM permalink
Quote: charles

Now if only Officer
Barney was color blind !



Seems to me he was. A thug was walking like a fool and blocking traffic so he took action.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Mozart
Mozart
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 28, 2014
November 28th, 2014 at 11:48:49 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Seems to me he was. A thug was walking like a fool and blocking traffic so he took action.

+1

AZ speaks the truth!
Clubber Lang, Boxer, Eden = Boo
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
  • Threads: 262
  • Posts: 4021
Joined: Nov 3, 2009
November 28th, 2014 at 12:18:42 PM permalink
Excerpt from the Post at the top of this page (Benjamin Watson, New Orleans Saints):

I'M EMBARRASSED because the looting, violent protests, and law breaking only confirm, and in the minds of many, validate, the stereotypes and thus the inferior treatment.

I'M SAD, because another young life was lost from his family, the racial divide has widened, a community is in shambles, accusations, insensitivity hurt and hatred are boiling over, and we may never know the truth about what happened that day.

I'M SYMPATHETIC, because I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what happened. Maybe Darren Wilson acted within his rights and duty as an officer of the law and killed Michael Brown in self defense like any of us would in the circumstance. Now he has to fear the backlash against himself and his loved ones when he was only doing his job. What a horrible thing to endure. OR maybe he provoked Michael and ignited the series of events that led to him eventually murdering the young man to prove a point.

I'M OFFENDED, because of the insulting comments I've seen that are not only insensitive but dismissive to the painful experiences of others.

I'M CONFUSED, because I don't know why it's so hard to obey a policeman. You will not win!!! And I don't know why some policeman abuse their power. Power is a responsibility, not a weapon to brandish and lord over the populace.

......
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
  • Jump to: