Ferguson cop

Quote: Gandler

So I fundamentally disagree, surveillance works and very effectively (and again even if it is politically incorrect to say, there is much evidence to show its effectiveness at scaring people out of all levels of crime) , it both solves problems, and prevents problems with fear.

I think, and this is an attack on your premise, that you give too much credit, and are ignoring history.

I worked in Surv for many years. And not some C-store with a camera pointed at the cage and one at the door. It was in a casino, where I had 2,000 cameras at my disposal, covering everything from the cage to the entrances to the parking lot to the hotel. It worked wonderfully for prosecution. You did something, it's all right there on video. It did little to nothing for prevention. Sure, maybe a cashier will think twice. But scums are gonna scum. The list of crimes I had to review were long and never ending. I will at least agree it will have some effect, and said effect would be positive. But I think you give it too much credit.

And profiling? It absolutely works. That's all I did for years. It's how any cop or investigator or sleuth or detective is any good. If you want to lobby to end the PC state that disallows it, I'm all for it. But forcing it through use of a superforce isn't the answer.

But all that's not even the issue. Look at history. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Unions were a godsend to end unsafe work practices and unfair wage earnings. But as they got bigger, what happened? Corporate success is a large part of why the USA is #1. But as they got big enough to buy politics, what happened? The power of creating a superbank should be a boon for the customers it serves. But what happened?

Bottom line, we have a piss poor track record with hasty legislation. Asset forfeiture was a great idea on the surface. No reason these criminals should profit from what is a purely illegal life. But we gave that power and what do we have now? Guys in Vegas losing their rolls just because they had it. The War on Drugs, same thing. We need to combat this scourge on our people. But we gave that power and what do we have now? An industrialized prison complex, a war on our own people, and the criminalization of a disease.

The Patriot Act, ObamaCare, The Safe Act, over and over again we give up everything only to have the problem rage on. And the more the problem rages,... the more we call to give up more? "This doesn't work, so let's try more of it!". No.

Right now I'm under persecution from a State gone wild. To "combat violence", they made me a felon. If the State finds me out, I face 5 Class A Misdemeanors and 2 Class E Felonies. What keeps me safe? My local police. My county and my towns have vowed not to bend to the unconstitutional laws forced upon us. The State might want me behind bars, but my local police will not get me. And if they would, then I and thousands of others will march to our town hall and vote them out, bringing in people who won't.

The corruption you speak of is ours to fight. We are the only ones who can. When one of ours faked a shots fired incident, we ran him out of town. It's easy at the local level. You're asking to bring in the same cops, only at a level where they're unreachable and untouchable.

I'm glad you're serving, as it explains your view. But the brotherhood, nobility, and honor you own as a group vanishes when you become a machine.

Palestians are supported by Saudis who got reach because of US petro dollars. If not the constant tension created by sheikhs Palestians would be integrated into Israeli society, they would attend universities and go to work the same way Israelis do. If someone wants Jews dead he'll end dead himself.

A man armed with a length of 2X4 was shot and killed by Vancouver police a few days ago. So far no riots, what is the difference between these shootings?

Must be because he wasn't black so it is okay - but wait he was still a visible minority (Asian). The response in Ferguson is so over the top. Everything that happens to a black person is because he is black. It must be nice to have such an iron clad excuse for lifes issues. The rest of us can screw-up, be in the wrong place at the wrong time or many other things but for blacks everything that might happen is racially motivated/caused.VANCOUVER SHOOTING

Don't like that example. How about the Canadian that was shot and killed by Seattle police a few years ago. Mind you he was armed with a knife, as he was whittling a piece of wood since he was a wood carver.Cops shoot and kill people all the time and not only black people.

For those that don't know since some of the threads have reference to it. Policy for most, if not all police forces now is shoot to kill. If you need to fire your weapon do not try for a none lethal take down shot but go for the kill shot(s).

Quote: petroglyph

You said he had a .40.

No, I didn't say. I was just using it as an example as I'm pretty sure the .40 is now the most common LEO round in use.

I was just pointing out that if a guy with a pistol and a sedan is out of control, then giving him a SAW and a main battle tank isn't the answer.

Quote: Face

No, I didn't say. I was just using it as an example as I'm pretty sure the .40 is now the most common LEO round in use.

I was just pointing out that if a guy with a pistol and a sedan is out of control, then giving him a SAW and a main battle tank isn't the answer.

I don't know what he was using?

I just don't like 9's. I still haven't seen 1 second of this on tv.

Quote: Face

I think, and this is an attack on your premise, that you give too much credit, and are ignoring history.

I worked in Surv for many years. And not some C-store with a camera pointed at the cage and one at the door. It was in a casino, where I had 2,000 cameras at my disposal, covering everything from the cage to the entrances to the parking lot to the hotel. It worked wonderfully for prosecution. You did something, it's all right there on video. It did little to nothing for prevention. Sure, maybe a cashier will think twice. But scums are gonna scum. The list of crimes I had to review were long and never ending. I will at least agree it will have some effect, and said effect would be positive. But I think you give it too much credit.

And profiling? It absolutely works. That's all I did for years. It's how any cop or investigator or sleuth or detective is any good. If you want to lobby to end the PC state that disallows it, I'm all for it. But forcing it through use of a superforce isn't the answer.

But all that's not even the issue. Look at history. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Unions were a godsend to end unsafe work practices and unfair wage earnings. But as they got bigger, what happened? Corporate success is a large part of why the USA is #1. But as they got big enough to buy politics, what happened? The power of creating a superbank should be a boon for the customers it serves. But what happened?

Bottom line, we have a piss poor track record with hasty legislation. Asset forfeiture was a great idea on the surface. No reason these criminals should profit from what is a purely illegal life. But we gave that power and what do we have now? Guys in Vegas losing their rolls just because they had it. The War on Drugs, same thing. We need to combat this scourge on our people. But we gave that power and what do we have now? An industrialized prison complex, a war on our own people, and the criminalization of a disease.

The Patriot Act, ObamaCare, The Safe Act, over and over again we give up everything only to have the problem rage on. And the more the problem rages,... the more we call to give up more? "This doesn't work, so let's try more of it!". No.

Right now I'm under persecution from a State gone wild. To "combat violence", they made me a felon. If the State finds me out, I face 5 Class A Misdemeanors and 2 Class E Felonies. What keeps me safe? My local police. My county and my towns have vowed not to bend to the unconstitutional laws forced upon us. The State might want me behind bars, but my local police will not get me. And if they would, then I and thousands of others will march to our town hall and vote them out, bringing in people who won't.

The corruption you speak of is ours to fight. We are the only ones who can. When one of ours faked a shots fired incident, we ran him out of town. It's easy at the local level. You're asking to bring in the same cops, only at a level where they're unreachable and untouchable.

I'm glad you're serving, as it explains your view. But the brotherhood, nobility, and honor you own as a group vanishes when you become a machine.

I'm glad as you are clearly somebody with experience you admit that profiling not just works, but is necessary, many people are afraid to admit such things because of politically correct backlash.

But I'm completely on the same page on the war on drugs, needs to stop. Marijuana needs to be legal, and others at least decriminalized. Same with the Prison System which is an offshoot of the drug war.

I am glad that your local police are being helpful. However, as you said they are being helpful by disobeying laws/orders (even if in this case they have the moral highground). But by the same logic, a different town police can be intentially unhelpful to somebody that they don't like by disobeying laws.

But I disagree most with your last statement. Being a machine (for work purposes) is not necessarily a bad thing. Almost all militaries in history operate like machines. Yes, I know now somebody is going to point to various crimes soldiers have committed in the last decade. However, you know about them, as does the military, and instantly. And they are always quickly and harshly punished. Whenever somebody violates a rule in the military they get caught and punished. But how many endless amounts of cops engage in brutality and never get charged or get nothing more than a slap on the wrist? And how many more have we never even heard of engaging in much more high level corruption? When a local department is all in on it (and that is very easy especially in tiny departments with just a few officers where they are all related or friends) they can get away with anything.

Now I have never been in the Casino business, but as you as a surveillance detective for a casino (I only know this from casino security documentaries), don't you work as an invisible man where you are supposed to not be friends or even known by almost all of the staff outside of surveillance department? And you essentially do to Casino Security guards and staff exactly what I would like done to cops? Monitor them to prevent corruption and brutality? I will concede of course some people will always break the rules as you point out, this is obvious in every industry. But isn't that another reason why tools to catch them are important?

Quote: Gandler

I am not advocating a police state. Quite the opposite I am advocating policing the police. Even if you disagree with my view, surely you must at least admit that this is a major issue.

Filming the police while working (and hence exercising "authority") is not even slightly equivalent to living in a 1984 type world. That is just a cheap shot. In fact I would go even further and say policing the police federally is the opposite of a "police state" as it forces fairness and justice.

You are not just saying to video the cops, you are saying have the feds have access to all of it in near instant time. I don't mind some filming of them, I do have a problem with the feds sticking their noses in to departments where no wrong has even been charged. As I said earlier, first place this is unconstitutional and additionally I don't want the feds having more power. It should be done first by internal affairs and next by the state involved. Feds only if they are getting widespread complaints.

I am willing to have a smaller chance of problems in return for letting cops use common sense police work.

Quote: Gandler

Quote:

you are clearly just trying to start and Anti-Israeli argument. And then you try to defame me by acting like I worship North Korea

I don't know or care if or who you worship, I was quoting you. This is a quote from your post;

Quote:

That is as cheap as calling somebody a "Nazi" when they have a differnet opinion on police.

That is evoking "Godwins law". Once you invoke the law, you have already lost the argument.
Then I quote you again;

Quote:

But yes, to play that game, I would like a centralized Law Enforcement system just like North Korea (and South Korea, and many Western countries[/q[. When I quote you, you say this;

Quote:

"And then you try to defame me by acting like I worship North Korea"

You said you would like to live under North Korea's rules. I just pointing out some well known events in North Korea, Then you again;

Quote:

I'm sorry, but there is so much incorrect in what you said and I don't want to get off topic and turn this into an issue about Israel (if you want to start a thread about Israel,

I thought the topic was Ferguson?

Quote:

So for the sake of this thread I will end with this, Israeli politics

As you have already mentioned being in the NG. I am not trying to insult you, but can I ask is that the US National Guard? You mentioned how your fellow military personal keep such a close watch on each other.

Quote:

just making blanket criticisms of the country as a whole)

Not my intention. I think there are wonderful things about the country and many of its people. I have Jews in my family who I care for deeply. No need for you to go that route.

Quote:

speaking strictly on their profiling system, it works.

Yes it does, wish we could use some of it at our airports instead of making cripples and grannies disrobe and not asking Muslim women to remove anything as it would offend something or other?

Quote:

Even the most liberal critics of Israel admit this,

Not sure if you are referring to me? I support Israel, maybe not as much as you, but I think everyone should have a home, including the Phoenecians. It seemed to me you were rather one way. You say I have no idea what genocide means? I will use this;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide I wonder where you got the idea the "settlements" were decreasing??http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/19/israel-settlement-jerusalem_n_6184948.html

Quote: petroglyph

I don't know or care if or who you worship, I was quoting you. This is a quote from your post; That is evoking "Godwins law". Once you invoke the law, you have already lost the argument.
Then I quote you again; But yes, to play that game, I would like a centralized Law Enforcement system just like North Korea (and South Korea, and many Western countrie. When I quote you, you say this "And then you try to defame me by acting like I worship North Korea

You said you would like to live under North Korea's rules. I just pointing out some well known events in North Korea, Then you again; I thought the topic was Ferguson?

As you have already mentioned being in the NG. I am not trying to insult you, but can I ask is that the US National Guard? You mentioned how your fellow military personal keep such a close watch on each other. Not my intention. I think there are wonderful things about the country and many of its people. I have Jews in my family who I care for deeply. No need for you to go that route. Yes it does, wish we could use some of it at our airports instead of making cripples and grannies disrobe and not asking Muslim women to remove anything as it would offend something or other? Not sure if you are referring to me? I support Israel, maybe not as much as you, but I think everyone should have a home, including the Phoenecians. It seemed to me you were rather one way. You say I have no idea what genocide means? I will use this;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide I wonder where you got the idea the "settlements" were decreasing??http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/19/israel-settlement-jerusalem_n_6184948.html

Yes you quoted me out of context. I was clearly making a sarcastic remark (as the parenthesis should have further reinforced) after he compared an earlier comment of mine to North Korea...

But, yes I am an American, and New Jersey National Guard specifically.

Yes, and the only one invoking Godwins law is you, by comparing my belief to North Korean ideology....

And you end with agreeing that their profiling system works (if I read correctly)? So then great, there is no need to discuss anything else, as I have no desire to get into a debate over Israel/Palestine in this thread.

And no that comment was not aimed at you , it was aimed at many liberal professors I have, that endlessly criticize Israel, but still admit that their profiling system works. The point was made to say that even if you don't like Israel its irrelevant on how effective their profiling system is. And you have already conceded this point so there is nothing more to debate as this is not an appropriate place to debate Israeli politics since that will inevitably derail the thread...

-One thing I will add even though I said I wouldn't is: Genocide is a major crime, the worst crime you can accuse somebody of. Its not a term that should be whimsically thrown around.

Did I hear Obama say today that if he had
a son, he would be like Michael Brown? Or
am I confusing this with a another crime.

Quote: Face

And profiling? It absolutely works. That's all I did for years. It's how any cop or investigator or sleuth or detective is any good. If you want to lobby to end the PC state that disallows it

You and Lois Lerner, man.

Well, you should target groups who openly hate taxation. Giant red flag right there.

Quote: EvenBob

Did I hear Obama say today that if he had
a son, he would be like Michael Brown? Or
am I confusing this with a another crime.

I believe they ran a clip of Obama talking about Trevor Martin case, and that Trevor could have been Obama, or Obama's son.

I generally dislike cops, but I think officer Wilson should be given a raise, a promotion, and a free, lifetime supply of ammo to carry out more good deeds. And the Police and the National Guard need to start shooting these mindless, looting animals, hey hey.

Quote: soxfan

I generally dislike cops, but I think officer Wilson should be given a raise, a promotion, and a free, lifetime supply of ammo to carry out more good deeds. And the Police and the National Guard need to start shooting these mindless, looting animals, hey hey.

I'd like to see him try it in Camden or Newark, NJ.

He wouldn't last ten minutes up against a determined, well armed group of foes whacked on crack and fortified wine.

Quote: Face

... When I got pinched for weed by the local constabulary, there was no abuse, no asset forfeiture. The guy knew me. He knew I wasn't a thug or a thief, knew I wasn't tearing up the town or robbing its population. I was just a drifter that liked to burn and skip rocks at the crick. I wasn't a threat to safety, I wasn't a threat to the population. He cited me because he had to, and he later tore the ticket up because the punishment wouldn't have fit the *ahem* "crime". Same with AZ's example about the guns. The local runs up on me toting a weapon (and it's happened before) and I wasn't drawn upon and made to lie in the road face down. He drives right up to me and all he asks is "any luck?". I get nicked ripping down the road on a dirt bike and I wasn't cuffed and stuffed and my ride auctioned off. Rather, I get a "stern talking to" that amounts to little more than "c'mon, really?". Those are the benefits of the law having to answer to the population.

...

Face,

I mostly said my piece, but I look at your litany of transgressions and I have to think you drew the wrong conclusion. Those are not the benefits of the law having to answer to the population. Those are the benefits of your skin color.

Contrast your example 1. In NYC a few months ago, a black guy was killed by the police for selling a cigarette on the street. Not even pot. He protested being arrested, was put roughly on the ground by several officers and killed with a choke hold.

Contrast your example 2. In NY this past week, a 12 year old black kid was killed by police for waving around a bb gun.

Can't come up with a quick example 3 contrast, but saw it many times in Volusia County (Daytona Beach) on I-95. Sheriff's department was profiling drug runners, clipping and grabbing people, searching without probable cause or lawbreaking on the highway, confiscating contents, vehicles, and jailing suspects. Primary profile was black men with hot rides. Was a big deal 15 years ago here.

18 year old unarmed thug slaps around a cop then walks away. Somehow in your world and that of a lot of other people's here, that justifies shooting him down. Despite being an adult trained in subduing violent people, armed with mace, nightstick, gun, radio backup, and a car that could be used to simply drive away, this cop has the "right" to just gun the kid down and call it justified in our society. NOT acceptable.

You get a pass because you're one of the guys. None of these folks did; they were "other". The common denominator of these crimes is the fear of the officers towards the people they're interacting with. A fear that causes them to overreact and reinforces the stereotype. That downward spiral has to get broken, and it has to be the authorities in the crowd that do it, through measured, responsible response. The only other option is the violent change being forced by the frustration of the underclass, not desired by either side.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Face,

I mostly said my piece, but I look at your litany of transgressions and I have to think you drew the wrong conclusion. Those are not the benefits of the law having to answer to the population. Those are the benefits of your skin color.

Contrast your example 1. In NYC a few months ago, a black guy was killed by the police for selling a cigarette on the street. Not even pot. He protested being arrested, was put roughly on the ground by several officers and killed with a choke hold.

Contrast your example 2. In NY this past week, a 12 year old black kid was killed by police for waving around a bb gun.

Can't come up with a quick example 3 contrast, but saw it many times in Volusia County (Daytona Beach) on I-95. Sheriff's department was profiling drug runners, clipping and grabbing people, searching without probable cause or lawbreaking on the highway, confiscating contents, vehicles, and jailing suspects. Primary profile was black men with hot rides. Was a big deal 15 years ago here.

18 year old unarmed thug slaps around a cop then walks away. Somehow in your world and that of a lot of other people's here, that justifies shooting him down. Despite being an adult trained in subduing violent people, armed with mace, nightstick, gun, radio backup, and a car that could be used to simply drive away, this cop has the "right" to just gun the kid down and call it justified in our society. NOT acceptable.

You get a pass because you're one of the guys. None of these folks did; they were "other". The common denominator of these crimes is the fear of the officers towards the people they're interacting with. A fear that causes them to overreact and reinforces the stereotype. That downward spiral has to get broken, and it has to be the authorities in the crowd that do it, through measured, responsible response. The only other option is the violent change being forced by the frustration of the underclass, not desired by either side.

lol

Quote: beachbumbabs

Face,

I mostly said my piece, but I look at your litany of transgressions and I have to think you drew the wrong conclusion. Those are not the benefits of the law having to answer to the population. Those are the benefits of your skin color.

Contrast your example 1. In NYC a few months ago, a black guy was killed by the police for selling a cigarette on the street. Not even pot. He protested being arrested, was put roughly on the ground by several officers and killed with a choke hold.

Contrast your example 2. In NY this past week, a 12 year old black kid was killed by police for waving around a bb gun.

Can't come up with a quick example 3 contrast, but saw it many times in Volusia County (Daytona Beach) on I-95. Sheriff's department was profiling drug runners, clipping and grabbing people, searching without probable cause or lawbreaking on the highway, confiscating contents, vehicles, and jailing suspects. Primary profile was black men with hot rides. Was a big deal 15 years ago here.

18 year old unarmed thug slaps around a cop then walks away. Somehow in your world and that of a lot of other people's here, that justifies shooting him down. Despite being an adult trained in subduing violent people, armed with mace, nightstick, gun, radio backup, and a car that could be used to simply drive away, this cop has the "right" to just gun the kid down and call it justified in our society. NOT acceptable.

You get a pass because you're one of the guys. None of these folks did; they were "other". The common denominator of these crimes is the fear of the officers towards the people they're interacting with. A fear that causes them to overreact and reinforces the stereotype. That downward spiral has to get broken, and it has to be the authorities in the crowd that do it, through measured, responsible response. The only other option is the violent change being forced by the frustration of the underclass, not desired by either side.

I agree most of it except example 2. Well said. Law is created to be obeyed by everybody. An the most important part is: NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. NO ONE and NO ONE. Shooting an unarmed man to death is NOT acceptable.

Quote: beachbumbabs

18 year old unarmed thug slaps around a cop then walks away. Somehow in your world and that of a lot of other people's here, that justifies shooting him down. Despite being an adult trained in subduing violent people, armed with mace, nightstick, gun, radio backup, and a car that could be used to simply drive away, this cop has the "right" to just gun the kid down and call it justified in our society. NOT acceptable.

That's what you think happened? What channel
are you watching? There is slightly more to the
story than that. Just slightly..

Look into it.

Heard Al Sharpton criticize the time of the announcement for being at 9pm EST. He's right, maybe not for whatever reason he had, but all your shiftless thugs are at their midday at 9pm. They are all asleep at 8 or 9am.

If you behave like a mad dog then you deserve to be put down like a mad dog. If the store owner where the animal Brown perpetrated his strong armed robbery would have pulled a gun and shot him dead it would have been justifiable homicide, captured on video tape. Officer Wilson is ahero who no doubt prevented much future ooga booga criminality. There needs to a be a nation-wide stand your ground law, hey hey!

Quote: speedycrap

I agree most of it except example 2. Well said. Law is created to be obeyed by everybody. An the most important part is: NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. NO ONE and NO ONE. Shooting an unarmed man to death is NOT acceptable.

Can you imagine a scenario where a reasonable person could fear imminent great bodily harm or death while being attacked by an UNARMED(tm) man? Because I sure can.

The overemphasis on UNARMED(tm) is intended to imply that Wilson could not have reasonably fears for his life or great bodily harm. Fortunately both in reality and at law "unarmed" is just one fact that informs us about what a defendant could have reasonably apprehended at the time.

But the overarching point is that there at tons of times where shooting an unarmed man is perfectly justified.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Contrast your example 1. In NYC a few months ago, a black guy was killed by the police for selling a cigarette on the street. Not even pot. He protested being arrested, was put roughly on the ground by several officers and killed with a choke hold.

This example incorrectly implies that death was used as a penalty. He wasn't killed for selling cigs. He was arrested for selling cigs. He died because the police used a negligent restraining technique to subdue a strong resisting morbidly obese man who not ironically had a heart condition.

If you want to misrepresent what happened you should at least have the courtesy to say that he was killed for resisting arrest.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Contrast your example 2. In NY this past week, a 12 year old black kid was killed by police for waving around a bb gun.

Actually for reaching for it, which is less menacing in some ways and more menacing in others. And it was allegedly a realistic replica.

Sometimes legally armed people (and perhaps kids holding toys) see the cops and go to set down their gun, thinking that's a safe move. It's not because it looks the same as someone pulling out a gun to use it to a cop. See, for example, the Costco shooting in vegas. It's unlikely the guy was trying to hurt the cop, but when he handled the gun (perhaps to drop it or surrender it), it looked like an offensive action.

Quote: beachbumbabs

18 year old unarmed thug slaps around a cop then walks away. Somehow in your world and that of a lot of other people's here, that justifies shooting him down. Despite being an adult trained in subduing violent people, armed with mace, nightstick, gun, radio backup, and a car that could be used to simply drive away, this cop has the "right" to just gun the kid down and call it justified in our society. NOT acceptable.

This is an incredibly narrative driven opinion where you are contorting the story to fit your world view.

This opinion requires extraordinary assumptions. It ignores the fight over the gun; it assumes that the cop shot only because he'd been slapped around (not the consequences of losing a fight); it assumes the absence of a continuing threat; it implies that a cop should flee the scene rather than attempt apprehension of a robbery suspect that literally just committed felonious assault on a cop; ignores that backup had already been summoned; and pretends that the shooting is vengance.

You discount these things because they don't fit your race lens you've decided to look through. While I obviously don't know what happened, there plenty of reason to believe that Wilson reasonably feared great bodily injury or for his life when brown fought him in the car and moved toward him on the street. An experienced mixed race grand jury felt the same after hearing from black witnesses that lived in browns neighborhood.

Quote: MrV

When I was a kid the blacks rioted in the next town over, Plainfield, NJ.

Things were more "black and white" back then.



Heck, I recall attending a meeting in a Plainfield school gym put on by an ad hoc group called S.O.C. ("Save Our City"): all white, mostly Italian, and they gave a crash course in self-defense.

Now, the lines have blurred.

Time always "civilizes" all people...one day at a time. Plainfield and Newark riots were one of the worst (Watch it below). Circa 37 years later, Ferguson riots were more "civilized" when compared to that of Newark's. Given more and more time (another 37 years?)... perhaps we all will live in peace without riots, right?

Quote: soxfan

There needs to a be a nation-wide stand your ground law, hey hey!

Yeah, looks like that law is turning out to be a peach.

Isn't this whole thing really Nature's Way of culling the herd?

NYC's policing policy is that the man who sells tobacco without a license is violating the law and when they get him to the police station for booking his fingerprints will reveal he is also Public Enemy Number One. Now of course this is an exaggeration and probably the kid annoyed the cop for some reason.

Its been the same way with drugs. Blacks sell drugs on street corners; Whites from office suites. Which is it easier to bust?

The black male driving an expensive vehicle with a high cargo capacity isn't being stopped because he is black he is being stopped because they think it more likely to be a seizure that adds to their department's budget for conferences and fancy doodads.

The first things cops are taught is that their primary protection is not a club or firearm or radio or judo training, their first protection is the starched shirt and badge. Its the respect; the dividing line. The Us versus Them. Or as reflected in the film "In the Heat of the Night", the being addressed as "Officer Wood".

"Serve and Protect". You are darned right. Cops really believe that and insist on it. Its just that in "cop talk" the verb "serve" means to dominate. And that is often their primary goal.

Quote: beachbumbabs

18 year old unarmed thug slaps around a cop then walks away. Somehow in your world and that of a lot of other people's here, that justifies shooting him down. Despite being an adult trained in subduing violent people, armed with mace, nightstick, gun, radio backup, and a car that could be used to simply drive away, this cop has the "right" to just gun the kid down and call it justified in our society. NOT acceptable.

Really? About the only thing you seem to have right is that there was a thug and a police officer involved.

You seem to be accepting the street story and not any of the other testimony like him charging the officer. It makes a great narrative but it ignores how hard it is to shoot someone running away from you in the front...

Babs, I think you have been watching far too much MSNBC with your comments. Your far too smart to believe that this was anything other than totally justified. There may be plenty of cases out there where the police have stepped over their rights and people have been unjustly abused and had their rights taken, however this is not one of them.

Sadly race hustlers (Sharpton), liberals like the HP and street thugs have picked this case to use as a symbol of their beliefs and have only hurt their cause and just enforced the stereotypes many have of them. Which hurts the entire black community and the general publics opinion of many of its members.

Quote: Boz

Babs, I think you have been watching far too much MSNBC with your comments. Your far too smart to believe that this was anything other than totally justified. There may be plenty of cases out there where the police have stepped over their rights and people have been unjustly abused and had their rights taken, however this is not one of them.

Sadly race hustlers (Sharpton), liberals like the HP and street thugs have picked this case to use as a symbol of their beliefs and have only hurt their cause and just enforced the stereotypes many have of them. Which hurts the entire black community and the general publics opinion of many of its members.

I completely agree.
Just about every case involving a police shooting, I am very suspicious of the police.
Just about every controversial shooting case, I am NOT on the cops side.
I was for Zimmerman being found guilty.
This case is different, looking at all the facts, and I lean left, I believe this was a justifiable shooting.
There are a lot of cases the black community can use to highlight police abuse, unfortunately this is not one of them.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Contrast your example 1. In NYC a few months ago, a black guy was killed by the police for selling a cigarette on the street. Not even pot. He protested being arrested, was put roughly on the ground by several officers and killed with a choke hold.

The Eric Garner chokehold homicide. (Medical Examiner's ruling).

Quote: terapined

Just about every case involving a police shooting, I am very suspicious of the police.

I know you and I are on different sides of the spectrum, but we should be a bit suspicious of any police shooting and make sure that ALL of them are properly investigated. Just like there are people in every line of work that shouldn't be there, there are cops that are doing it for the wrong reasons and/or don't have the proper judgment to be cops.

Quote: terapined

Just about every controversial shooting case, I am NOT on the cops side.

I wouldn't go that far but we all know there have been some bad shoots out there and everything should be done to prevent them and to get rid (fired, jail, etc.) of cops who do them.

Quote: terapined

This case is different, looking at all the facts, and I lean left, I believe this was a justifiable shooting.

You have to suspend disbelief to think that he was somehow going to just leave after attacking the officer. Had he just left, the officer would have had to shoot him in the back to kill him. In fairy tale world, you have lots of time for back-ups and all that stuff...things happen rather quickly in these situations and they are REAL not pretend world where we have forever to say what should have been done.

Quote: terapined

There are a lot of cases the black community can use to highlight police abuse, unfortunately this is not one of them.

The Sharptons of the world do a disservice to the community they serve by doing so little to really change things and so much to flame the fires of racial issues. There ARE real racial issues out there...but Sharpton only makes money by blowing them up, not be fixing them. Those guys are so far from MLK Jr that it is pathetic. Police abuse does happen; you don't fight it by championing a guy who attacked a police officer.

Folks, attacking a police officer, no matter what your stance is on the police, is just not a good idea. I'm not saying that we should lie down for them to run over our rights, but the way to fight the guy with the gun is not to confront him in the streets in a threatening manner. Nope. That's stupidity and it will get you maced, tazed, punched out, or shot every time. The cop will protect himself. And he should.

Quote: captainmajor

Can you imagine a scenario where a reasonable person could fear imminent great bodily harm or death while being attacked by an UNARMED(tm) man? Because I sure can.

The overemphasis on UNARMED(tm) is intended to imply that Wilson could not have reasonably fears for his life or great bodily harm. Fortunately both in reality and at law "unarmed" is just one fact that informs us about what a defendant could have reasonably apprehended at the time.

But the overarching point is that there at tons of times where shooting an unarmed man is perfectly justified.

I haven't reviewed the whole thread or followed the whole Ferguson drama closely, but what you say here is 100% correct. I think a lot of people think real life is like the movies where you can just punch each other out continually and walk away with no injuries.

I've trained in self-defense for close to 20 years and if someone's 100 pounds soaking wet versus someone 300 pounds, you evaluate the situation differently, regardless of color of skin: that's common sense, right? And yet news portrayals failed to make the distinction on any level. Kind of an important detail to the case, is it not?

This case, like others similar to it, attempt to reflect on some broader point instead of the actual case, and in doing so, how is that fair to the officer? From my perspective, it's perfectly reasonable to say there was a chance the officer acted improperly, and yet you rarely hear that from people adamant on the other side of the issue, like there couldn't have possibly been, under any circumstances, justification.

Babs it appears that you put great stock in the fact that he was unarmed. This is not a fixed scenerio. The officer during the event does not know if he has a hidden weapon or not. This can only be totally determined after the fact. Secondly, the officer is armed, he has been in a physical confrontation with someone larger and likely stronger. This puts his own weapon up for grabs and the possibility that it could taken and used against him. When the suspect turns and comes towards him again he decided against giving him that chance. If you were facing someone in this situation how would you react?

I guess I have to weigh in...... 'Unarmed' is NOT RELEVANT!!!!! In my career I have seen HUNDREDS of dead people as a result of beatings with fists, kicks, etc.... I would guess that if Face attacked me, He could do me in in less than 5 minutes, UNARMED!!!
I love BBB. But even suggesting that charges be brought against a man to help a community heal is perhaps the most repulsive thought I have read on this forum.

I think I'll summarize for those who don't want to read 100 pages.......
A man committed a crime. He then attacked a police officer. He was shot dead. There was no crime committed by the police officer. He did his job.

And the 'community' responds by burning and looting.....

Michael Brown approached the police car, hit the officer, went for the gun, the gun went off in the car.
In my book, thats attempted murder.

Trayvon Martin was walking home minding his own business not breaking any laws and was stalked by a gunman.
Michael Brown just stole from a local store then committed assault and attempted murder in that car.

2 different cases.
I support Trayvon Martin and I do not support Michael Brown.

Quote: terapined

Michael Brown approached the police car, hit the officer, went for the gun, the gun went off in the car.
In my book, thats attempted murder.

Trayvon Martin was walking home minding his own business not breaking any laws and was stalked by a gunman.
Michael Brown just stole from a local store then committed assault and attempted murder in that car.

2 different cases.
I support Trayvon Martin and I do not support Michael Brown.

except trayvan martin also attacked Zimmerman. The only difference is he was not a cop so he had nobody supporting him...

Quote: SOOPOO

I guess I have to weigh in...... 'Unarmed' is NOT RELEVANT!!!!! In my career I have seen HUNDREDS of dead people as a result of beatings with fists, kicks, etc.... I would guess that if Face attacked me, He could do me in in less than 5 minutes, UNARMED!!!
I love BBB. But even suggesting that charges be brought against a man to help a community heal is perhaps the most repulsive thought I have read on this forum.

Preach!

There are so many important details ignored in favor of the one that makes no difference. I've seen fights. I've been in fights. I've dropped guys that can bench 400+lbs. I've been dropped by a 165lb bean pole. And when you're in the s$%^, you have no idea what's coming next.

This isn't hockey with refs and 10 guys at your back, or a neighborhood scrum with each side represented. Dude was alone. I've seen and been in fights to the pain. Break the guy's spirit and the fight is over. I've also seen and been in fights to the end. These don't stop until the winner has had his fill. Prostrate and half unconscious, it doesn't matter. You're getting beat and punched and kicked until he's satisfied. And the only thing that keeps you alive is luck and skeletal resilience.

You must understand, additionally, that 5-0 has the added responsibility of weapon retention. One of the scariest aspects of a SHTF scenario is "does he have a weapon". Understand that everywhere a cop goes, every scrum he involves himself in, he has just introduced a weapon into it. He has one. There's a gun at every disturbance he attends. Even if the only weapon present is his own, he is in danger and has responsibility.

If the cop loses control, like he would if he were incapacitated or fell unconscious, he's just released a live weapon to the criminal. A criminal who has proved to be not above causing physical harm. He must protect himself at all costs.

Cop vs citizen, 6' 6" vs 5' 11", black vs white, it's all bullspit. There isn't question here, at least by the accounts I read. The raised hands? Turned out to be BS. The running away? Turned out to be BS. All the details given that would throw a lot of suspicion on this case? All turned out to be hearsay gossip with no basis in fact, given by people who didn't even see it, all in attempt to start some s$%^.

Don't be a puppet. Race, abuse of power, all problems that need attention. Pretending this is either only hurts those causes. Here a man attacked another man, and was rightfully shot for his efforts.

Sometimes there is confusion and multiple cars arrive at about the same time so no one knows which car was first to respond to the officer involved shooting...Once in NYC they turned over the dead suspect and found two knives and two pistols.

Quote: terapined

Trayvon Martin was walking home minding his own business not breaking any laws and was stalked by a gunman.

No, Travon was spotted by a guy on neighborhood watch. He took offense to the neighborhood watch guy so he attacked him, pined him to the ground, and kept punching him in the head.

Attacking a person is breaking a law here in PA, not sure about FL.

From what I understand of these events in Ferguson, Mike Brown was responsible for his own tragedy.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Face,

I mostly said my piece, but I look at your litany of transgressions and I have to think you drew the wrong conclusion. Those are not the benefits of the law having to answer to the population. Those are the benefits of your skin color.

Contrast your example 1. In NYC a few months ago, a black guy was killed by the police for selling a cigarette on the street. Not even pot. He protested being arrested, was put roughly on the ground by several officers and killed with a choke hold.

Contrast your example 2. In NY this past week, a 12 year old black kid was killed by police for waving around a bb gun.

Can't come up with a quick example 3 contrast, but saw it many times in Volusia County (Daytona Beach) on I-95. Sheriff's department was profiling drug runners, clipping and grabbing people, searching without probable cause or lawbreaking on the highway, confiscating contents, vehicles, and jailing suspects. Primary profile was black men with hot rides. Was a big deal 15 years ago here.

18 year old unarmed thug slaps around a cop then walks away. Somehow in your world and that of a lot of other people's here, that justifies shooting him down. Despite being an adult trained in subduing violent people, armed with mace, nightstick, gun, radio backup, and a car that could be used to simply drive away, this cop has the "right" to just gun the kid down and call it justified in our society. NOT acceptable.

You get a pass because you're one of the guys. None of these folks did; they were "other". The common denominator of these crimes is the fear of the officers towards the people they're interacting with. A fear that causes them to overreact and reinforces the stereotype. That downward spiral has to get broken, and it has to be the authorities in the crowd that do it, through measured, responsible response. The only other option is the violent change being forced by the frustration of the underclass, not desired by either side.

Benefits of skin color? Perhaps. I of course can never empathize with the plights of the black man. I'm not black. And the demo of all the towns in my area save two are 96% white. I'm out of that loop.

But I do understand racism. One of those two mixed towns are mine. 60% white, 40% Native. And racism is alive and well. I should know, as I'm a half breed.

I can't compare myself to the black man. At least when I leave home, I can just pass for white anywhere I go and not have to deal with it. But at home, it certainly exists. There are many whites who view Natives as nothing more than redmen looking for their next fix. There are many Natives who view the white man as conniving devils. I spent my entire childhood fighting with Whites because I was Native and fighting with natives because I was White. I'd argue that it's even more intense. Hell, the Emancipation Proclamation was 160 years ago. The Kinzua Removal was just 50 years ago. The pain is much more fresh, much more real. It's harder to forget when you actually know people who were affected.

And the cops are no different. They're people, after all. I have heard cops, my own friends, say "Man, when I got my badge and they handed me that blackjack, I couldn't wait to get out and crack a Native skull." I don't know the plight of the black man. But I know something.

The fact that I can chameleon back and forth as it suits me might indeed have been my saving grace. But there might be more. See, I've dealt with the cops over a hundred times. That's a lot. I've been caught smoking pot, been caught doing 145 in a 45 (several times), been caught drinking underage, been caught drinking and driving, open container, public intox. I've been caught in assaults, been pulled over for no headlights. I've been pulled over stoned, been pulled over tripping my balls off with a wad of weed and LSD in the car, I've been pulled over with nothing but my kid and some milk present. I've been pulled over wearing a gun with more in the back, and I've been pulled over wearing nothing but a pair of boxer briefs in mid February.

Some of these hundred interactions start with "How we doing today?". Some have started with "DRIVER, STEP OUT OF THE CAR." Some have been enjoyable, some funny. Some scary and some downright infuriating. But one thing has remained consistent through all hundred. "Evening, officer." "Yessir." "No, sir." "I have to dig in my pockets, OK?" "Yes, it's loaded." "No, that's all I have." "Thank you, sir, and be safe."

Maybe you're right, and I'm here safe and free because I'm a half breed chameleon. I happen to think I'm here, safe and free, because I don't run around punching cops in the face.

We could waste the rest of eternity swapping news clips and YouTube videos back and forth. I think it's unnecessary. You know there's been thousands of murders by "unarmed persons" just as I know there's been thousands of abuses by those bestowed the power to protect us. My argument is that blue abuse, racial abuse, both are serious issues. But this is not a case of it. Again, forget size, color, and job title. A man attacked another man. This man was armed, and defended himself. Period, end of sentence.

Trying to pin causes to this simple incident only serves to weaken those causes.

Quote: Greasyjohn

From what I understand of these events in Ferguson, Mike Brown was responsible for his own tragedy.

you understand correctly.

But the rioters don't see it that way. They just want to loot and pillage as much as they want.

That Michael Brown was shot while being aggressive toward a white police officer is beyond question, I believe. And yet, in this country, hundreds if not thousands of black men shoot and kill other black men because they didn't like the way they were being looked at, or because some black guy said hello to another black man's girlfriend.

A black man takes offense or feels he wasn't respected at a party. Leaves, comes back to the party and sees the guy who he feels disrespected him standing in the front yard of the party house with other partygoers. Sprays the group with bullits from an Uzi.

I'm not trying to open a can of worms, but thousands more black men have been killed by other black men for senseless reasons, than by white police officers who have justification to use lethal force.

There's another Ferguson. Colin Ferguson. Remember the Long Island Railroad Massacre in Dec. 1993. Black man killing white people he'd never met just because they were white. Where was Al Sharpton? Where's the looting? Where's the outrage?

Quote: Face

Some of these hundred interactions start with "How we doing today?". Some have started with "DRIVER, STEP OUT OF THE CAR." Some have been enjoyable, some funny. Some scary and some downright infuriating. But one thing has remained consistent through all hundred. "Evening, officer." "Yessir." "No, sir." "I have to dig in my pockets, OK?" "Yes, it's loaded." "No, that's all I have." "Thank you, sir, and be safe."

Maybe you're right, and I'm here safe and free because I'm a half breed chameleon. I happen to think I'm here, safe and free, because I don't run around punching cops in the face.

And this is so much the case. I remember back in college how people got in trouble. 99% of the time it was 99% booze and 1% potheads. Generally nobody wanted to get the cops involved. Even on-campus they just wanted it quiet. Now 10 people in a room for 2 drinking when they should not be, that makes noise even if it is not loud, party noise. So they would ask you to keep it down. One time we just apologized and they were ready to leave and a loudmouth says as they are leaving, "WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO HASSLE US?" Same thing happened more than once.

People make themselves have issues with the cops. Unless you are committing a real crime most cops just want their beat quiet and orderly. Most people understand that and give a "yessir" and straighten out. Then there is that small part, 3-4% who have to wise-off just to wise-off.

And it has to be understood, cops can't just let people wise-off and walk away. Watch "The Sopranos" when something happens and Tony might not want to react but says, "If I do nothing how will it look?" Same with a bunch of wise-offs to cops.

Quote: MrV

By report, after Wilson leaned in the cop car to punch the cop, he turned and walked away.

So riddle me this, Batman: why didn't the cop then drive away, monitor the situation from a comfortable distance from his locked and secure car and wait for backup which was enroute?

Coulda shoulda, dontcha think?

But no, his adrenalin was up, and he was a cop, and by god no black can assault a cop and get away with it, especially not in the south.

I think I solved the easy "riddle". Maybe the cop was trying to protect the public from what he thought was a violent thug. His police instincts would have been correct knowing what we know later from the video of this huge hulking man assaulting a shop owner while committing a theft. The cop didn't know about the previous theft and assault....but the hulking perpetrator didn't know that. He seemed to want to do whatever was needed to get away. If in running away he throws your father down the steps..no problem, in running away he causes car accidents and injury while running in the street....no problem. He breaks down a door and holds a pregnant woman hostage until the heat is off....piece of cake.

And if the police officer stayed in his car let the HULKING male get away giving the excuse that he was waiting for backup.....he would have gotten complaints that he didn't do his job to protect the public. Why do we give your training and weapons if all you are going to do is sit in your car and wait for help.

maybe he would be safe to say the following" I stayed in my car, because if I chased the perpetrator and he acted in a manner where I felt my safety was threatened and I shot him before other law enforcement arrived.....the community being mostly black would riot, and hundreds of innocent lives would be negatively affected"

But hand wringing libs would complain...how dare you characterize the black community this way. You are characterizing them to be beneath the level of animals...because wild animals do not destroy their communities. This officer needs to be fired.

If a MAN like this of hulking size had a day where he stole merchandise, assaulted a store owner, and assaulted a cop while the cop was inside a patrol car....I would tend to think he has in the past terrorized society many times before. This wasn't his first trip to the rodeo. Its not the first time he used his size and strength to overpower others.

I applaud the officer for doing his job and not letting the MAN slither off into the big city where he could continue to hurt others. I think he was doing his job to protect us rather than going off on a personal vendetta full of adrenaline as you say.

the aftermath of the riots as with most riots

Insurance rates for business will go up causing some businesses to leave
Other businesses will leave even if they can afford the increase in insurance....just to get the hell out of there
Some business owners will have no choice as their life efforts to build a business has been taken away, squashed, negated.
Families of these business owners will suffer , having to start over, children may no longer have a college fund to help them along. Riots negatively affect a long line of victims that are not even seen or heard from.
People will avoid moving to that area, property values go down, causing landlords based on supply and demand to accept less rent.
Less rent means landlords have less money to put into their property, causing run down conditions.....making the area less populated, attracting only the lowest incomes......and the cycle continues over and over...as buildings become abandoned crack dens.
People who live locally will have less businesses in short distance to their homes, making them have to spend money on mass transportation(or walking long distances) to get their purchasing needs met.

The thing about businesses in communities. When the local church goes to the mom and pop store and asks if they want to buy tickets to the sunday all you can eat pancake fundraiser....its the mom and pop local businesses that reach into their pockets and hand over a 20 dollar bill.(The big corporations stores tell them to submit an application to the home office). The mom and pop stores that got burned down not only helped keep the area property values stable, but also supported local community activities. Girl scouts, boy scouts, police athletic league, churches, schools. A symbiotic relationship

Well those community groups will need to find other ways to raise funds.

Donations from business will dry up, tax revenues from business will dry up.

Business that stay will be reluctant to reach into their pocket to give money to community ventures, a community that has put them on notice that they will burn them down if the next verdict is not to their liking. There will be a real distrust.

Newark has still never recovered from the riots. All the above I listed happened there. Its well documented.

you can physically clean up the burnt down brick and mortar rubble.....but they will never fully recover ...the horse is already out of the barn on this one. It will take years to totally play out

Heres the alternative medias order of events.

http://theantimedia.org/ferguson-how-protests-turned-to-riots/

I didnt read through all of this thread but ive been watching live streams the last couple days. Any questions. Feel free to ask.

Quote: vailedJOY

the aftermath of the riots as with most riots

Insurance rates for business will go up causing some businesses to leave
Other businesses will leave even if they can afford the increase in insurance....just to get the hell out of there
Some business owners will have no choice as their life efforts to build a business has been taken away, squashed, negated.
Families of these business owners will suffer , having to start over, children may no longer have a college fund to help them along. Riots negatively affect a long line of victims that are not even seen or heard from.
People will avoid moving to that area, property values go down, causing landlords based on supply and demand to accept less rent.
Less rent means landlords have less money to put into their property, causing run down conditions.....making the area less populated, attracting only the lowest incomes......and the cycle continues over and over...as buildings become abandoned crack dens.
People who live locally will have less businesses in short distance to their homes, making them have to spend money on mass transportation(or walking long distances) to get their purchasing needs met.

The thing about businesses in communities. When the local church goes to the mom and pop store and asks if they want to buy tickets to the sunday all you can eat pancake fundraiser....its the mom and pop local businesses that reach into their pockets and hand over a 20 dollar bill.(The big corporations stores tell them to submit an application to the home office). The mom and pop stores that got burned down not only helped keep the area property values stable, but also supported local community activities. Girl scouts, boy scouts, police athletic league, churches, schools. A symbiotic relationship

Well those community groups will need to find other ways to raise funds.

Donations from business will dry up, tax revenues from business will dry up.

Business that stay will be reluctant to reach into their pocket to give money to community ventures, a community that has put them on notice that they will burn them down if the next verdict is not to their liking. There will be a real distrust.

Newark has still never recovered from the riots. All the above I listed happened there. Its well documented.

you can physically clean up the burnt down brick and mortar rubble.....but they will never fully recover ...the horse is already out of the barn on this one. It will take years to totally play out

Well said.

Unfortunately, people who riot don't have any ratonal planning ability. They just want stuff now. If they are rioting over this one case, it is clear they don't have much ability to evaluate either, since it is clear that Brown is guilty, so much so that the cop can't even be idicted. But, it doesn't matter, it's a reason to steal and riot.

Quote: RonC

You seem to be accepting the street story and not any of the other testimony like him charging the officer.

What is interesting is gunfire had already occurred, and Brown was running away. Then for some reason he changed his mind, turned around, and started to charge a police officer who had already fired a weapon at him.

Or perhaps he wasn't charging and just turned around. Perhaps his head down was a reaction to being shot. Ever bend over when you're injured?

It's easier to accept the first part of the narrative if Brown had been killed in the fight at the car. The second part of the narrative once he is 35ft from the officer is not so straightforward.

Not sure if the printed narrative is out there yet from the grand jury testimony.

Quote: rudeboyoi

Heres the alternative medias order of events.

http://theantimedia.org/ferguson-how-protests-turned-to-riots/

I didnt read through all of this thread but ive been watching live streams the last couple days. Any questions. Feel free to ask.

From your story:

"Rioting begins. Rioters moving away from the police begin smashing windows as they travel down the street. Looting begins. Some took advantage of the chaos and began stealing from stores. Molotov cocktails begin flying and establishments start being burned to the ground."

If I believed the narrative of the story--that laws were broken by the police in how the attempted to disperse the crowd--how does that move to smashing windows, stealing, and burning unrelated things? Those things are unlawful in our system and "two wrongs don't make a right" sums it up pretty well--if your rights are infringed on in some way, protest, get arrested peacefully if necessary, take it to court as need. Your rights being violated does not give you the right to violate the rights of others.