petroglyph
petroglyph
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October 19th, 2014 at 12:27:47 PM permalink
Russia is getting angry over the Wests determination to control the energy/banking sectors of the world.

Russia/Siberia's resources and China's manufacturing ability [BRICS] is putting the West in a position that historically the only solution has been war.

In linked article Serbia is granting tresspass for Gazproms Southstream pipeline, cutting out Ukraine. Just before winter.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/126098

Also, http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-88-is-available-Global-systemic-crisis-2015-The-world-is-defecting-to-the-East_a17007.html

All the power [and gold] is going edit: east to west. west to east.
socks
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October 19th, 2014 at 1:55:28 PM permalink
When there are no active (physical) frontiers and little innovation, economic growth stops, mercantilism works, and the world is a zero-sum game again (unless it's swings into a negative sum game as non-renewable resources are run through).

I'm a huge fan of Peter Thiel on this topic. He notes that counting government spending, the US has a -6% savings rate, the kind of thing you do when you believe the future will be better, but no one has a definite vision of exactly how the future will be better, "indefinite optimism", which he suspects is fundamentally unstable. Europe is indefinitely pessimistic, while China is definitely pessimistic (they know they will continue copying the developed world, but will get old before they get rich.)

Most people in the US are completely unable to consider these problems. I confronted a number of people on peak oil several years back, and the most popular answer I got was that I had to "have faith in god". Somewhere along the line Franklin's God who helps those who help themselves became a bailout god that fixes things when people fail to plan.
Dicenor33
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October 19th, 2014 at 3:58:41 PM permalink
Putin will arm Muslims. 1 billion army. New Hallifat becomes a near reality.
MrV
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October 19th, 2014 at 4:10:22 PM permalink
Quote: Dicenor33

Putin will arm Muslims. 1 billion army. New Hallifat becomes a near reality.



WTF is "Hallifat?"
"What, me worry?"
petroglyph
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October 19th, 2014 at 4:12:50 PM permalink
Quote:

Quote: socks

When there are no active (physical) frontiers and little innovation, economic growth stops, mercantilism works, and the world is a zero-sum game again (unless it's swings into a negative sum game as non-renewable resources are run through).


The corporations are larger than government now. It is taking Russia to kick McDonalds out of the country instead of our government ordering McDanalds to sanction. Bidens son already running the gas company in Ukraine. Government is now a revolving door for the ptb. Continuous extraction as in Matt Taibbi's vampire squid, cannot continue with finite resources. Or can it? See Africa.
Quote:

the US has a -6% savings rate, the kind of thing you do when you believe the future will be better


That capitol that the savings rate represents didn't evaporate without debt being payed off. That isn't happening. The negative rate is people's lives being charged on credit. Same way the west's governments on benefits, an admitted 19 trillion in debt for the USG alone. That money goes somewhere, to the rentier non productive class as they siphon blood out of the populace. Really how many alternatives are there to the boomers finding out their money got John Corzined? It isn't there.
Quote:

China is definitely pessimistic

Not for the 10% that have become obscenely wealthy. Things are looking pretty good as they search the world for places to stash their wealth. Actually the 10% world wide have done well the last 3 decades. There are too many people wanting to use up "their" resources.

Quote:

I confronted a number of people on peak oil

I think we have reached peak empire.
Dicenor33
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October 19th, 2014 at 4:13:42 PM permalink
Russia has two choices, either cave in to Western demands( which it probably won't), or sign a pact with Muslims( which it probably will). The entire Europe including Russia goes under Shiria law, the US becomes isolated and all thanks to undesisive policies of our President.
MrV
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October 19th, 2014 at 4:23:16 PM permalink
Russia going Muslim?

Hardly.

They fear and dislike Muslims as much as we do.

No, they'll make a pact or two which they'll honor only so long as it suits them.

Lone wolves, those Russkies.
"What, me worry?"
Dicenor33
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October 19th, 2014 at 4:30:48 PM permalink
Christian Russia has been a warrant for Western civilization to flourish, and now when the entire West wants to starve Russians to death they will begin to convert and new nuclear empire will emerge. Stupid is stupid does.
socks
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October 19th, 2014 at 4:52:39 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

The corporations are larger than government now. ... Government is now a revolving door for the ptb.


I've become increasing reluctant to use "ptb". I see it as a very heterogeneous group. I'm also not as down on the elite as is popular. Peter Thiel, who was Ron Paul's biggest donor, is also on the Bilderberg steering committee. Many libertarians were quick to assume that this was a sign of RP's corruption, but I look at it from the other direction.

I think most of the elite want the world to work and that the problems we're facing are problems of scarcity that have always been with us; problems we have the potential to eliminate by getting the world's population through the demographic transition, but not without more innovation, as I believe if you try to average western populations down to the world's average of <$13k per capita GDP, you get war. I think the elite left make this mistake by taking, as a given, an absolute need to reduce everyone's footprint first while underestimating the likelihood of this leading to a breakdown and war.

Quote: petroglyph


That capitol that the savings rate represents didn't evaporate without debt being payed off. That isn't happening. The negative rate is people's lives being charged on credit. Same way the west's governments on benefits, an admitted 19 trillion in debt for the USG alone. That money goes somewhere, to the rentier non productive class as they siphon blood out of the populace. Really how many alternatives are there to the boomers finding out their money got John Corzined? It isn't there.


There are obviously many dynamics here. Drawing down on savings; avoiding inflation by outsourcing, first to China, and now to poorer countries; productivity enhancements, which are hard to measure/capture in the numbers... I'm hoping we can ship a lot more inflation into the internet as more people get wired up, ever younger, and the older generation dies off. This may not produce as satisfying a life, but maybe it'll avoid war. I say that to say that, in the end, paper (or electronic) dollars don't matter that much. People's actual experience in life matters, and the elite are pretty good at juggling the numbers to make things work as long as the masses are reasonable pacified and not insisting on war.

I'm not particularly optimistic, but I'm not super pessimistic either. Though I do essentially agree w/ the original post, that China and Russia have the correct competitive mindset under current conditions. I expect the US's relative standard of living to fall somewhat if things do hold together, due to an ideologically driven misreading of the strategic landscape.

Quote: petroglyph

Not for the 10% that have become obscenely wealthy. Things are looking pretty good as they search the world for places to stash their wealth. Actually the 10% world wide have done well the last 3 decades. There are too many people wanting to use up "their" resources.


Well, there are a lot of people in China... I'm not sure how much, exactly, to blame on Chinese leadership. The Demographic transition has been talked about since at least the 20's, but was it well enough understood that our system was going to stabilize populations faster? Interestingly, even John Rawls, the original social justice theorist, came back, long after publishing Theory of Justice, and said countries must have border to internalize costs of population growth. I guess I'm around a fair number of people from the fat middle of the bell curve and their inability to reason and plan for the future... not have kids they can't afford... It makes it hard for me to be terribly sympathetic to populations (or subpopulations) that outrun their resources. Should we try to help bootstrap populations into stability, sure, but I'm not expecting people to accept sudden, dramatic, drops in their own standard of living to do so.
petroglyph
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October 19th, 2014 at 8:30:23 PM permalink
Quote: socks

Quote:

I've become increasing reluctant to use "ptb"

Fair enough. There are certainly layers of wealth. I admire Thiel and most anyone that has earned or built or somehow gained their own status. When I think of the "ptb" I think of those that have so much wealth they aren't mentioned on Forbes list of billionaires. Me knowing that half the world lives on 3 dollars per day probably puts me in the top 10%, so personally I have nothing to complain about in that regard. What I don't really agree with is why the secrecy?

If it wasn't for this unlikely hero we may not know of the Bilderbergs, http://americanfreepress.net/?p=10045 Heck, I think Angelina Jolie is a member, at least of the CFR. If I owned the world I don't know how different it would be. Be it through attrition or other means, there are a lot of people on the planet that are using more energy than they will ever contribute. Cold hard fact but I don't have to like the way it is metted out by front groups like the UN, the IMF, or NGO's.
Quote:

Peter Thiel, who was Ron Paul's biggest donor, is also on the Bilderberg steering committee

Thiel says some great things that need saying. Speaks a lot of truth like questioning student loans. Since biblical times when a new ruler came to be there was a debt jubilee. Bush fixed it so that student debt can't even be bankrupted out of [Thiel]. I didn't agree with RP on every thing, but I did and still do support him. His voting record for the last 25 years is unparalleled. I'm sure in Pauls career from time to time he had to shake hands with the devil more than once. Pat Choate who was Ross Perot's running mate was brilliant on the economy. He wrote "Agents of influence", speaking at the time on who owned the most treasuries. Ron believes in a Jeffersonian approach of non intervention. http://americanfreepress.net/?p=10045

Quote:

I believe if you try to average western populations down to the world's average of <$13k per capita GDP, you get war. I think the elite left make this mistake by taking, as a given, an absolute need to reduce everyone's footprint first while underestimating the likelihood of this leading to a breakdown and war.

To me there is little difference between the left/right. When an election changes who owns the FRB or the ECB than it will matter. Until then war isn't a symptom [if non nuclear] it is a feature. Bush may have been on a carrier deck but he did not land the plane.

I admire the Chinese government, it appears to me that they nationalistically support their country. I believe that is what a government is supposed to do, not what the US 535 have been doing since 1971 and the end of Bretton Woods.

John Rawls? I will see your John Rawls and raise you one Howard Zinn.

I am impressed at how they can juggle so many balls in the air at the same time. That just doesn't happen coincidentally. And most haven't even heard of the Shadow Government.
DeMango
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October 20th, 2014 at 5:56:03 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

WTF is "Hallifat?"


Caliphate? C is right next to H on HIS keyboard.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
socks
socks
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October 20th, 2014 at 1:06:40 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Fair enough. There are certainly layers of wealth. I admire Thiel and most anyone that has earned or built or somehow gained their own status. When I think of the "ptb" I think of those that have so much wealth they aren't mentioned on Forbes list of billionaires. Me knowing that half the world lives on 3 dollars per day probably puts me in the top 10%, so personally I have nothing to complain about in that regard. What I don't really agree with is why the secrecy?


There was this character, on an old peak oil forum, who called himself Dennis From Oregon. He claimed, across 3000+ posts, that he was the black sheep of his illuminati family, and that the illuminati was made up of 300 banking families. I'm in no position to know if he's telling the truth or building a fake image (for fun or profit), but I always thought he was entertaining.

Quote: petroglyph

If I owned the world I don't know how different it would be.


That makes me think of the Buffyverse, when tbtp handed control of Wolfram&Heart over to Angel and he found himself mired down and forced to make compromises, at least, for a while, until he went down fighting.

Quote: petroglyph

Thiel says some great things that need saying. Speaks a lot of truth like questioning student loans. Since biblical times when a new ruler came to be there was a debt jubilee. ...

I'm also a fan of Thiel's stance on college, that it's become a tournament and insurance, rather than an investment. I'm not a huge fan of comparing the present to past times. Steven Pinker's take on the world (given in his TED talk on violence) as having a very violent, hobbesian, past, rings true to me; along with his assertion that today's world has rapidly become much, much, less violent. That said, I believe the main driver has been innovation and economic development and not social change that takes the stage today. Pinker covers a number of possible causes in his book, The Better Angels of Our Nature, which I haven't read yet.

Quote: petroglyph

I admire the Chinese government, it appears to me that they nationalistically support their country. I believe that is what a government is supposed to do, not what the US 535 have been doing since 1971 and the end of Bretton Woods.


Noblesse Oblige? The early 70's were an inflection point in so many ways. Rawls work, which informs so much of our modern society, was preceded by a 40 year GDP boom (+350%); then our domestic oil supply peaked, Kissinger went to China, and globalism got started in earnest (and actual innovation slowed). The 40 years since has seen a 20% increase in GDP which has mostly gone to the top. Bill Gates notes in his TED talk on energy that this trend towards greater inequality will likely continue if we don't fix our energy problem, and that those with long time horizons will be the (relative) winners. Imo, if we need to do one thing, it's to push nuclear energy. We should be demanding this of our elite, many of whom seem perfectly happy to simply let energy availability fall off dramatically. It's risky, but I think the alternatives look a lot worse.

China is a mixed bag, but they've done the world a favor by commodifying solar power, and possibly by ignoring intellectual property (some of which (software patents) really needs attention/reform). I think it's important to have multiple governments competing with each other for talent. It's good for freedom.

I've heard of Zinn in passing, but I don't really know much about him. I'll keep an eye open.

This is by far the longest political discussion I've had this year. I try not to get involved since they can be so distracting. Unfortunately, I've really got to get back to writing code.
petroglyph
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October 20th, 2014 at 6:38:10 PM permalink
Damn the hard luck.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-20/anti-petrodollar-ceo-french-energy-giant-total-dies-freak-plane-crash-moscow#comments

I love a good conspiracy theory in the morning.
petroglyph
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November 28th, 2014 at 10:43:03 AM permalink
Any thoughts on how Gazprom, Rosneft and the ruble are doing with 60$ oil?

Will the west win this urinating contest, or will things get hotter in the Ukraine.

Today, part of the Russian fleet sailed through the English channel.
Zuga
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Zuga
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November 28th, 2014 at 10:56:33 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Any thoughts on how Gazprom, Rosneft and the ruble are doing with 60$ oil?

Will the west win this urinating contest, or will things get hotter in the Ukraine.

Today, part of the Russian fleet sailed through the English channel.



I heard Putin's statement the other week ( made to the Russian medias ) where he blamed the West ( read the USA ) for deliberately knocking down the price of oil so it would hurt the Russian economy, which is so dependant on it.

I would not be surprised this was true... as we are witnessing the new cold war here. But then again by trying to hurt Russia this way, wouldnt they be hurting themselves too? How many other countries depend on selling the oil and how many USA companies ?
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing "
Tanko
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November 28th, 2014 at 12:16:38 PM permalink
Quote: Zuga

I heard Putin's statement the other week ( made to the Russian medias ) where he blamed the West ( read the USA ) for deliberately knocking down the price of oil so it would hurt the Russian economy, which is so dependant on it.

I would not be surprised this was true... as we are witnessing the new cold war here. But then again by trying to hurt Russia this way, wouldnt they be hurting themselves too? How many other countries depend on selling the oil and how many USA companies ?



Thanks for your concern.

Any reduction in the cost of oil is a tremendous boost to any economy that produces goods and services.

It translates into lower prices and more jobs.

We are already witnessing that effect.

An economy solely dependent on oil production is screwed.

If there is a cold war, Good!

Western economies flourished during the cold war.

You have more important things to worry about.

Orban
djatc
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November 28th, 2014 at 12:32:05 PM permalink
Russia should send over more models and bride for sales if they wanna capitalize on their best exports.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
terapined
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November 28th, 2014 at 1:11:32 PM permalink
On the flip side the Middle Eastern oil producers are not cutting back on production because lower prices are hurting US shale operations.
WOV supports censorship. Bring back free speech challenging lies.
petroglyph
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November 28th, 2014 at 1:16:47 PM permalink
I think there are some really big plays being made, while the people are being distracted here in the US. The media seems to create and control the "issues" of the voters.
This "news" about what is going on in Ferguson should never have made national news. There have been over 700 killings in Chicago alone during the timespan of this event. It should never have made national news, it is simply race baiting by our government and its propaganda machine, the msm. This event just stirs up hysteria until the next "national threat". The people here no longer manufacture anything and their country is swirling around the toilet bowl, but they spend their time arguing over a "moot" point. The war on drugs, poverty, illiteracy, hunger, etc.etc. is petering out. There was a need to keep the "hearts and minds" of the voters occupied until the next national threat. Prior to that the people were rebounding from a contrived election, while keeping the amnesty plan under wraps until afterwards, and to help distract them we had "ebola".

So back on topic, what I feel is critically important to the world, the new "cold war" lights up in Europe, and the west isn't even aware of the part they played in getting it fired up. The vice president [Joe Bidens] son gets the job of head ceo for the Ukrainian energy company. Coincidence? Out of all the professional oil/energy execs in the world, the best choice somehow to lead the Ukraine turns out to be our VP's son?

Putin is of course vilified by "the west", being ex-kgb there is some easy enough correlation to be gleaned if a person believes that all the communists are automatically bad. Russia no longer is communist, but is ruled by an oligarchy. Same as the west,. However to mention that raises hackles on the citizens who are steered by the press.

The big game, the one that really matters is not obvious to most. Nor does it matter, and I don't know why I'm interested really, just always have been. Vladimir got in an argument nearly a year ago after the Sochi Olympics with Prince Bandar of SA. Bandar threatened Putin claiming he controlled the Chechen muslims. At the time, SA wanted the US to go to war with Syria, the western powers would like to, after all it is an all volunteer military now.[sarc] Putin stopped the west in mid take over stride. See McCain shaking hands with AlQueada leaders in Syria and the whole system of who's who, who's giving the orders, pulling strings, furnishing weapons, and being generally illusive and subversive at the same time is less clear.

I have read that SA only has enough hydrocarbons to continue pumping at this rate for 6-7 years? Russia is certainly dependant on exporting oil, but SA is even more dependant on one export, oil. The unholy alliance between SA and the West is teetering on coming unhinged with the drop of the petro dollar, versus the ruble. Saudi drops the price against opecs wishes, the ruble craters, the dollar rises, and all appears good for the world reserve currency. But at this price, the big Bakken oil play isn't economically feasible, same way with the Canadian tar sands and slows down NG exploration.

The masters of the universe won't unleash nuclear war. That is one tiny bit of credit I will give them. No one wants to radiate resources for the next million years. That does not stop permanent conflict, which keeps the bankers and mic, in charge, making obscene profits in perpetuity.

That is kinda my take on it, I was wondering what yours was.
coilman
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November 28th, 2014 at 2:08:38 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Any thoughts on how Gazprom, Rosneft and the ruble are doing with 60$ oil?

Will the west win this urinating contest, or will things get hotter in the Ukraine.

Today, part of the Russian fleet sailed through the English channel.



New fella on my crew ( been working with us for two months) flew home last Thursday to pick up the wife and kids and bring them to Canada.... now that he has his papers for living in Canada he finally could do this. His wife and two kids plus his brothers wife and child will all be aboard a flight out of Ukraine on Saturday. He set this up all within a few weeks of getting those official papers. Gives us a pretty good idea how bad things really are there.

Some write up I saw online here was stating the reduce price for oil has cost Russia between $100-140 BILLION this year already
RogerKint
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November 28th, 2014 at 5:07:41 PM permalink
I am afraid this time will be a hot war and the Saudis get nuked. I'll be surprised if USD is worth much in a few years.
100% risk of ruin
AZDuffman
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November 28th, 2014 at 5:48:38 PM permalink
Quote: Zuga

I heard Putin's statement the other week ( made to the Russian medias ) where he blamed the West ( read the USA ) for deliberately knocking down the price of oil so it would hurt the Russian economy, which is so dependant on it.

I would not be surprised this was true... as we are witnessing the new cold war here. But then again by trying to hurt Russia this way, wouldnt they be hurting themselves too? How many other countries depend on selling the oil and how many USA companies ?



I don't doubt it is true, same thing happened in 1985/86. Saudis helped totally crash the price. Reagan got them on-board to do it. The payoff to them was 20 years of slowed production in the USA to make up for a few years of lower prices. The Seven Sisters became what, the Four Friends, but the USSR collapsed.

Today it is more mixed. The Russians benefit from the global-warming nonsense but shale production puts the squeeze on them. This time the Chinese can buy the Russian oil and even at a higher than market price if they want to prop them up.

Time will tell what will happen.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
MrV
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November 28th, 2014 at 6:02:20 PM permalink
I wonder if the Islamic jihad will become so intolerable, so toxic, that the West, Russia, and China join forces to smite them once and for all, destroying Islam?
"What, me worry?"
teddys
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November 28th, 2014 at 9:48:03 PM permalink
Quote: coilman

New fella on my crew ( been working with us for two months) flew home last Thursday to pick up the wife and kids and bring them to Canada.... now that he has his papers for living in Canada he finally could do this. His wife and two kids plus his brothers wife and child will all be aboard a flight out of Ukraine on Saturday. He set this up all within a few weeks of getting those official papers. Gives us a pretty good idea how bad things really are there.

Are y'all still gonna have jobs on Monday? :(
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
beachbumbabs
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November 29th, 2014 at 1:51:07 AM permalink
I could easily be wrong, but I don't see China paying artificially inflated prices just to prop up the Russian economy. They have a long history of enmity between their countries, with their long mutual border, and clashing economies and ideologies for the last 70 years (at least). With Putin as contrary and activist as he is, he can only be exacerbating their political situation, and China would see it to their advantage for Russia to weaken. China has the resources and will to demand and receive the best pricing in the world on oil; nearly every nation is a debtor to them at this point.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AZDuffman
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November 29th, 2014 at 4:41:47 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I could easily be wrong, but I don't see China paying artificially inflated prices just to prop up the Russian economy. They have a long history of enmity between their countries, with their long mutual border, and clashing economies and ideologies for the last 70 years (at least). With Putin as contrary and activist as he is, he can only be exacerbating their political situation, and China would see it to their advantage for Russia to weaken. China has the resources and will to demand and receive the best pricing in the world on oil; nearly every nation is a debtor to them at this point.



I have to disagree. If Russia collapses then China has an unstable, nuclear neighbor. With a weakened and dependent Russia China gets a nation that is a thorn in the side of the USA and Europe.

As to resources, China is not greatly blessed. They import lots of raw materials, a reason they need Russia--as a supply source. They are not going to get any better a price on oil than any other nation as oil is a world market. Also not so sure about "nearly every nation is a debtor to them at this point" either:

2011 China Trade Figures

Exports to Imports from Total Trade Balance
European Union 356.0 211.2 567.2 +144.8
United States 324.5 122.2 446.7 +202.3
Hong Kong 268.0 15.5 283.5 +252.5
ASEAN 170.1 192.8 362.9 -22.7
Japan 148.3 194.6 342.9 -46.3
South Korea 82.9 162.7 245.6 -79.8
Brazil 31.8 52.4 84.2 -20.6
India 50.5 23.4 73.9 +27.1
Russia 38.9 40.3 79.2 -1.4
Taiwan 35.1 124.9 160.0 -89.8


Hong Kong can be dismissed as it is internal trade. China has a trade surplus, but mostly against the USA and Europe. She needs Russia as a supplier. What is not shown on the chart is that China is still mostly a supplier of cheap junk sold at near cost. That does not create wealth.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Zuga
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November 29th, 2014 at 5:08:22 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

I wonder if the Islamic jihad will become so intolerable, so toxic, that the West, Russia, and China join forces to smite them once and for all, destroying Islam?



Destroying Islam? There are extremists in all religions, not just in Islam.

But I do not agree with tagging the whole religion, nation etc as being radical or terrorist. Islam, like any other religion, preaches peace and love for your fellow man.
But, the way the Quran ( or the Bible for that matter ) is being interpreted by some radical elements is the problem here.
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing "
AZDuffman
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November 29th, 2014 at 5:19:08 AM permalink
Quote: Zuga

Destroying Islam? There are extremists in all religions, not just in Islam.

But I do not agree with tagging the whole religion, nation etc as being radical or terrorist. Islam, like any other religion, preaches peace and love for your fellow man.



Islam has no history of peace and love from anything I have seen. Unless your idea of peace and love is to tell people with no religion that they must follow or die, and those of other religions that they must convert or pay 50% of everything they own as a tax. Bring a Bible to Saudi Arabia and see what happens to you. Fly an airplane through Israeli airspace then have mechanical issues and see if a muslim country lets you land in an emergency (HINT: they will let you crash before they let you land.)

Sorry, sir, I see no peace or love for your fellow man from Islam.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Zuga
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November 29th, 2014 at 7:36:56 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman



Sorry, sir, I see no peace or love for your fellow man from Islam.



So what you are saying is that 2.8 million American muslims are radicals, terrorists and dont care much for their fellow Americans?
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing "
RogerKint
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November 29th, 2014 at 7:47:28 AM permalink
One only needs to look to the founder of a religion to see how its scriptures should be interpreted. A non violent muslim is not a good muslim.
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terapined
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November 29th, 2014 at 7:49:27 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Islam has no history of peace and love from anything I have seen. .



I don't see Indonesia as a problem.
Middle East may get all the attention but the Muslim majority are not from the Middle East.
Your average follower of Islam does not reside in the middle east.
The majority of Muslims actually live in Asia in countries such as Indonesia.

Many examples during the Crusades where Christians killed while Islam were much kinder.
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terapined
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November 29th, 2014 at 7:53:36 AM permalink
Quote: RogerKint

One only needs to look to the founder of a religion to see how its scriptures should be interpreted. A non violent muslim is not a good muslim.



One only needs to look at the history of Christianity and see how scriptures have been interpreted to justify violence through the centuries.
WOV supports censorship. Bring back free speech challenging lies.
RogerKint
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November 29th, 2014 at 7:56:40 AM permalink
I just got put in my place.
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SanchoPanza
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November 29th, 2014 at 8:13:20 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

I don't see Indonesia as a problem.

Besides what happened with the Miss World contest in 2013, quite a few other problems are reported:
UN Official Condemns Rising Religious Fanaticism
Among the attacks on Christian places of worship, the Catholic chapel of Christ the King in Desa Blimbing was hit by a homemade bomb. A homemade bomb was also found at a Marian shrine in Prambanan. The Catholic chapel of St. Joseph in Pare was set on fire.

JAKARTA, Indonesia (Zenit.org) - Christian communities in Indonesia are reporting multiple attacks on churches and places of worship in 2010, while U.N. officials are calling for the cessation of sectarian violence and discriminatory laws that lead to interreligious conflict. Theophilus Bela, secretary general of the Indonesian Committee on Religion and Peace and president of Jakarta Christian Communication Forum, was part of a delegation last month to the United States to raise awareness of the anti-Christian persecution in his country.

The delegation met with religious leaders, government leaders in the White House, National Security Council, and State Department, and U.N. officials. Bela noted that Navanethem Pillay, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, stated that attacks on religious minorities in places like Egypt, Nigeria, Pakistan and Indonesia should serve as a wake-up call to authorities everywhere to combat rising fanaticism. She underlined the duty of all countries to protect the freedom of religion by eradicating sectarian violence and rooting out discriminatory laws that can lead to conflict.

Assaults
Among the attacks on Christian places of worship, Bela reported that the Catholic chapel of Christ the King in Desa Blimbing was hit by a homemade bomb on Dec. 7. A homemade bomb was also found at a Marian shrine in Prambanan at the end of November. The Catholic chapel of St. Joseph in Pare was set on fire on Oct. 12. On Sept. 11, a group attacked the Catholic parish church "Alleluya" in Tanah Grogot and broke the windows. Similarly, the windows were broken at St. Bellarminus Catholic School in Jatibening by a mob of radical Muslims on May 7. The next day, the mob returned, but police were able to avert another assault.

The Catholic hospital "Brayat Minula" in Banjarsari was hit with stones, and a window was broken on the same day that Cardinal Julius Darmaatmadja, former archbishop of Jakarta, was due to visit for the inauguration of a new building for the institution. A Catholic chapel in Capar was threatened on Feb. 18 by members of the Muslim Reform Movement.

The Catholic church of St. John the Baptist in Parung was prohibited from celebrating Mass on the feast of the Ascension due to a radical cleric from the local Muslim Ulama Council who often speaks out against the church.

Another radical Muslim cleric closed access to the building site of the Catholic church of St. Mary Immaculate in Kali Deras, halting progress on the construction. Local authorities closed a place of Catholic pilgrimage in honor of Mary in Desa Jati Mulya due to protests by local Muslims.

Other radical Muslim organizations pressured local authorities to prohibit the celebration of Mass at the Catholic retreat center "Wisma Semadi Klender" in Jakarta, though the decision was later reversed through the intercession of Bela. Radical Muslims also protested at the rectory of the Catholic parish of St. Mary the Immaculate Heart in Cicurug, and the pastor was forced to sign a letter promising that the house would be only be used as his residence and not for worship.

The Catholic chapel of Rancaekek of the parish of St. Odilia in Cicadas was closed down by local authorities. Local authorities halted the building of St. Mary Catholic church in Purwakarta due to fear of the local radical Muslim groups.

Protestant churches

Bela's report also included attacks on various Protestant Christian churches over the past year. . . .catholicworld
petroglyph
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November 29th, 2014 at 9:48:16 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Islam has no history of peace and love from anything I have seen. Unless your idea of peace and love is to tell people with no religion that they must follow or die, and those of other religions that they must convert or pay 50% of everything they own as a tax. Bring a Bible to Saudi Arabia and see what happens to you. Fly an airplane through Israeli airspace then have mechanical issues and see if a muslim country lets you land in an emergency (HINT: they will let you crash before they let you land.)

Sorry, sir, I see no peace or love for your fellow man from Islam.



Westerners are being "played" and believe the media's agenda about who is and who is not peaceful in the Mid-east. Ferguson is nothing more then another distraction, as it appears now so was the "ebola" threat. Timing is everything. The peoples opinions sway with the direction of the wind and are only based on what the influencers want them to think.

http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=Jewish+synagogues+in+iran&qpvt=Jewish+synagogues+in+iran&FORM=EWRE

It will take a few seconds to challenge anyones belief about how hateful or violent the only "recognized" religious theocracy is in the ME is, if they will click and see for themselves.

Does this not at least make anyone wonder why, we are told about Iran's intention to destroy "the government" of america's "best friend".

Iraq had many Christian churches and "Christians" to fill them as did Assad in Syria. The catholic church barely protests the Christians being rounded up and killed. The West has helped the "depopulation" of Christians if anything. While we bomb the hell out of anyone that gets in the way of our energy needs, and listen to the agenda of the purchased politicians who can hardly wait to get to the revolving door.

You want to talk about a violent religion that is in total control of a country that is best friends with a faux Christian super power? Sure there are radicals in all religions. Do you not think "Christians" are pulling the triggers on the drones that bomb wedding parties?See Bernay's.http://howestreet.com/2014/11/no-one-told-you-when-to-run-you-missed-the-starting-gun/
Tanko
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November 29th, 2014 at 11:27:41 AM permalink
Quote: Zuga

But I do not agree with tagging the whole religion, nation etc as being radical or terrorist. Islam, like any other religion, preaches peace and love for your fellow man.



No it doesn't

That's what George Bush(pbuh) used to say.

Does this sound peaceful to you?


Translation: Yusufali
[bani Isra'il 17:58.9] There is not a population but We shall destroy it before the Day of Judgment or punish it with a dreadful Penalty: that is written in the (eternal) Record.
Translation: Yusufali
[an-Nisa' 4:89.45] They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
Translation: Yusufali
[al-Anfal 8:12.22] Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
Translation: Yusufali
[bani Isra'il 17:58.9] There is not a population but We shall destroy it before the Day of Judgment or punish it with a dreadful Penalty: that is written in the (eternal) Record.
Translation: Yusufali
[ash-Shu`ara' 26:208.4] Never did We destroy a population, but had its warners -
Translation: Yusufali
[al-Qasas 28:59.8] Nor was thy Lord the one to destroy a population until He had sent to its centre an apostle, rehearsing to them Our Signs; nor are We going to destroy a population except when its members practise iniquity.
AZDuffman
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November 29th, 2014 at 1:20:59 PM permalink
Quote: Zuga

So what you are saying is that 2.8 million American muslims are radicals, terrorists and dont care much for their fellow Americans?



Ah, this is the reply one usually gets when pointing out some of the actions of muslims worldwide. I think we both know that I did not say every one of the 2.8 million muslims in the USA is a radical and terrorist. However, terrorism in the USA has come primarily from muslims. In Europe there are countries where the cops can barely enter the Muslim areas. Non-muslims have been basically driven out of any Middle Eastern muslim country. Women stoned to death for the crime of *being* raped. In the USA demands that signs advertising bacon at breakfast being removed. I have met prison COs who say what they teach inside will scare people to death.

Small and big the theme of intolerance to other beliefs is constant.

I am sorry, but I have never seen the "peace and tolerance" thing in practice and refuse to believe it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Dicenor33
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November 29th, 2014 at 1:37:08 PM permalink
Norway and Germany takes away children from radical families. To the benefit of future generation instead of used as terrorists these young men will have a real chance to join the modern life style based on Western values.
MrV
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November 29th, 2014 at 2:26:01 PM permalink
Quote: Zuga

Destroying Islam? There are extremists in all religions, not just in Islam.

But I do not agree with tagging the whole religion, nation etc as being radical or terrorist. Islam, like any other religion, preaches peace and love for your fellow man.
But, the way the Quran ( or the Bible for that matter ) is being interpreted by some radical elements is the problem here.



I do hope your optimism is not misplaced, as I too do not advocate killing millions in order to get to the few thousand who really need to be eliminated, but when they hide and mix in the general population, desperate times may require desperate measures.

Purely for hypothetical discussion, let's assume that a decision is made to kill all the populations in Muslim countries.

Assuming the political will for this exists, I wonder what would be the best technology to achieve the stated goal?

Neutron bomb, or some other form of enhanced radiation weapon?

Nerve gas?

A bio-weapon?
"What, me worry?"
petroglyph
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November 29th, 2014 at 3:17:15 PM permalink
Russia's patience is wearing thin, by Chris Martenson

A Podcast by Dmitry Orlov: "The United States is a nation that can't get anything together, can't get anything on, not education, not healthcare, nothing. It's basically sinking into a cesspool of its own making it can't respond at all. And now, it is basically being shown up to be quite incompetent in playing this international game"

http://www.peakprosperity.com/podcast/89249/dmitry-orlov-russias-patience-wearing-thin
rxwine
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November 29th, 2014 at 3:46:44 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

I do hope your optimism is not misplaced, as I too do not advocate killing millions in order to get to the few thousand who really need to be eliminated, but when they hide and mix in the general population, desperate times may require desperate measures.

Purely for hypothetical discussion, let's assume that a decision is made to kill all the populations in Muslim countries.

Assuming the political will for this exists, I wonder what would be the best technology to achieve the stated goal?

Neutron bomb, or some other form of enhanced radiation weapon?

Nerve gas?

A bio-weapon?



Better to help the less radical fight the most radical when possible instead of directly fighting. Why? Same reason as trying to interfere with two brothers fighting. Even in a pitted battle they are more likely to both turn on an outsider even if they were previously engaged battling each other.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
richbailey86
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November 29th, 2014 at 3:59:28 PM permalink
we know nothing but what the news says which is mostly garbage and lies

who knows what is REALLY going on

seems to me Russia and China are sick and tired of the west.

they will probably try to collapse the dollar, we try to save the dollar by bombing countries who threaten to switch from the dollar for oil trade, like Libya
An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government. Ron Paul
Tanko
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November 29th, 2014 at 6:01:41 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Many examples during the Crusades where Christians killed while Islam were much kinder.



Give some of the many examples where the Muslims were much kinder.

No hearsay. Provide links.
terapined
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November 29th, 2014 at 6:48:08 PM permalink
Quote: Tanko

Give some of the many examples where the Muslims were much kinder.

No hearsay. Provide links.



Saladin vs the Crusaders
1099 The Crusades captured Jerusalem, mass murder followed.
Saladin captured Jerusalem 1187, no mass murder.

This is not hearsay, look it up yourself, basic history.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/saladin.htm
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/first_crusade.htm
WOV supports censorship. Bring back free speech challenging lies.
Twirdman
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November 29th, 2014 at 8:41:29 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Islam has no history of peace and love from anything I have seen. Unless your idea of peace and love is to tell people with no religion that they must follow or die, and those of other religions that they must convert or pay 50% of everything they own as a tax. Bring a Bible to Saudi Arabia and see what happens to you. Fly an airplane through Israeli airspace then have mechanical issues and see if a muslim country lets you land in an emergency (HINT: they will let you crash before they let you land.)

Sorry, sir, I see no peace or love for your fellow man from Islam.



There are currently 1.6 billion Muslims in the world right now and you think all of them are radical terrorist. If even 1/4 of them wanted death to all Americans it would be painfully simple for them to accomplish it since that would be 400 million people greater then the entire population of the US. Now lets go with your estimate of no peace in Islam that would mean that 1.6 billion people want death to all non believers they would only need to kill on the order of 4 people each not trivial but also by no means a herculean task to accomplish and yet there are still billions of non believers.

Also you act as though there are no atrocities committed in Christian nations and throughout Christian history which is woefully ignorant. The fact is there are some Muslims that are radical and there are some Muslim countries which lean towards a very extremist agenda but this is hardly all Muslims or all Muslim nations.
petroglyph
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November 30th, 2014 at 10:42:14 AM permalink
http://www.gold-eagle.com/article/grandmaster-putins-golden-trap

" In chess the situation in which Putin has put the West, led by the US, is called "time trouble"."

This is way more important to your lives than the distraction playing in Missouri
Tanko
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November 30th, 2014 at 12:03:59 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Saladin vs the Crusaders
1099 The Crusades captured Jerusalem, mass murder followed.
Saladin captured Jerusalem 1187, no mass murder.

This is not hearsay, look it up yourself, basic history.



Saladin was not acting out of kindness by sparing lives.

When Muslims take a city, they kill every male able to grow pubic hair and enslave the remaining young males, women and girls.

Instead of slaughtering them, Saladin collected ransom for 18,000 Jerusalem inhabitants.

He freed many others and sold the rest into slavery.

Mohammed made a fortune doing this.

This is common Muslim practice, and it is being repeated today on a daily basis by ISIS and Boko Haram.

"Bring back our girls". Remember that?

They were sold off.

You said 'many examples' of Muslim kindness.

Post them.
AZDuffman
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November 30th, 2014 at 12:29:13 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

There are currently 1.6 billion Muslims in the world right now and you think all of them are radical terrorist. If even 1/4 of them wanted death to all Americans it would be painfully simple for them to accomplish it since that would be 400 million people greater then the entire population of the US. Now lets go with your estimate of no peace in Islam that would mean that 1.6 billion people want death to all non believers they would only need to kill on the order of 4 people each not trivial but also by no means a herculean task to accomplish and yet there are still billions of non believers.



Not sure where I said I think "all of them are terrorists." And to be honest, when a person draws this conclusion it makes it hard to have an intelligent conversation as this is kind of a junior-high kind of thing to say. Lets look at what I have said and how it is reality.

When Mohamed founded Islam it was quite simple. If you have no religion you can sign up or you can die by the sword. If you were with another religion you could convert or pay a 50% tax.

You cannot bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia nor can you land your plane, even it is on fire, if said plane crossed Israeli airspace. This is not "calling all muslims terrorists," this is quoting reality. Equally real is that near all non-muslims have been driven out of muslim countries.

Now, if you want to show me some examples of "peace and tolerance" in the muslim faith or on the part of behavior of muslim countries and societies, please bring it.

Quote:

Also you act as though there are no atrocities committed in Christian nations and throughout Christian history which is woefully ignorant. The fact is there are some Muslims that are radical and there are some Muslim countries which lean towards a very extremist agenda but this is hardly all Muslims or all Muslim nations.



We are not talking about what Christians did 1,000 years ago, we are talking about muslim behavior today. Please show a muslim nation where Christians are allowed to migrate to, one that allows churches and temples to be built and attended freely. (and I do not mean some westerner compound in S.A., I mean for the public.) Compare the treatment of Jews in any muslim country with muslims in Israel.

Bring it! Just bring something useful and not the tired, old, "not every muslim......." thing.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
petroglyph
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November 30th, 2014 at 2:16:08 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Quote:

You cannot bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia nor can you land your plane, even it is on fire, if said plane crossed Israeli airspace.
This is not "calling all muslims terrorists," this is quoting reality.

Equally real is that near all non-muslims have been driven out of muslim countries.

Well it has become apparent that I can furnish links, but
I cannot make you click on them. See above where I post links to Synagogues in Iran.

Also the part about not landing, it appears I can book a direct flight from Israel to Jeddah;
http://destinia.co.uk/v/ll48654-51477-flights-from-jerusalem-to-jeddah

Quote:

Please show a muslim nation where Christians are allowed to migrate to, one that allows churches and temples to be built and attended freely.
and I do not mean some westerner compound in S.A., I mean for the public.

Bring it! Just bring something useful and not the tired, old, "not every muslim......." thing.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=synagogues+in+Iran&qpvt=synagogues+in+Iran&FORM=IGRE
http://www.bing.com/images/search?
q=synagogues+in+Iran&qpvt=synagogues+in+Iran&FORM=IGRE

Quote:

Compare the treatment of Jews in any muslim country with muslims in Israel.

I will try, if you can give the boundaries of where you consider Israel.

muslim jewish contrast
Twirdman
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November 30th, 2014 at 2:16:57 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Not sure where I said I think "all of them are terrorists." And to be honest, when a person draws this conclusion it makes it hard to have an intelligent conversation as this is kind of a junior-high kind of thing to say. Lets look at what I have said and how it is reality.

When Mohamed founded Islam it was quite simple. If you have no religion you can sign up or you can die by the sword. If you were with another religion you could convert or pay a 50% tax.

You cannot bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia nor can you land your plane, even it is on fire, if said plane crossed Israeli airspace. This is not "calling all muslims terrorists," this is quoting reality. Equally real is that near all non-muslims have been driven out of muslim countries.

Now, if you want to show me some examples of "peace and tolerance" in the muslim faith or on the part of behavior of muslim countries and societies, please bring it.



We are not talking about what Christians did 1,000 years ago, we are talking about muslim behavior today. Please show a muslim nation where Christians are allowed to migrate to, one that allows churches and temples to be built and attended freely. (and I do not mean some westerner compound in S.A., I mean for the public.) Compare the treatment of Jews in any muslim country with muslims in Israel.

Bring it! Just bring something useful and not the tired, old, "not every muslim......." thing.



Sure there are plenty of such Muslim nations for instance Indonesia has a large Christian population as does Pakistan so there are your two largest Muslim nations. Bangledesh also has religious freedom so that is the country with the 4th largest number of Muslims, you'll noticed I skipped the 3rd that is because that is India which while having a crap ton of Muslims has far more other things so is not a Muslim nation.

So yes there are clearly many Muslim nations which have religious freedom. As was pointed out by Reza Aslan Muslim nations are incredibly varied and you cannot lump them all together.

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