FunkyDoctor
FunkyDoctor
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September 6th, 2014 at 11:34:34 PM permalink
I was playing on a UTH table recently where the order of the deal was that the players and dealer received their cards prior to the flop being dealt. On one hand the dealer dealt out the hands and then paused while chatting with one of the players. During the pause the players acted on their hands preflop, with me raising and the other two players checking. Then, inexplicably, without dealing a flop the dealer exposed her hand.

The dealer called over a floor person who immediately declared a misdeal. I protested that since we had already acted on our hands there should be no misdeal, especially in my case where since I had raised and seeing the dealer's hand at this point gave me no advantage. Further, it's been my experience on blackjack tables when the dealer has accidentally exposed their hole card that the pit boss usually lets the hand play out with the players having that additional knowledge.

Am I wrong here? Is a misdeal the correct call in this situation?
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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September 6th, 2014 at 11:55:24 PM permalink
Sounds sleazy and self-serving biased making the decision, but I have no idea. I wouldn't doubt you were screwed, right or wrong by the book. They don't let you walk off with your bet arbitrarily, so definitely grossly unfair.
I am a robot.
DJTeddyBear
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September 7th, 2014 at 1:00:44 AM permalink
What would happen if a player exposed his hand?

In regular poker, a warning and nothing else. The player plays the hand at a disadvantage. Sounds like it should be the same for UTH.

I say the hand should have played.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
beachbumbabs
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September 7th, 2014 at 1:27:41 AM permalink
I think the problem comes where people checked, since you didn't all bet the 3x4x. So, having seen the dealer's hand, one might (likely would) make a different betting decision than otherwise, especially if they stay on a hand you would normally fold, because they know they've won having seen her hand. The house, in declaring it dead, also may have forfeited one or more fold or loss hands they would've collected, so it's not like that wasn't a good outcome for some.

I think the casino had the prerogative to call it a dead hand. In UTH, if a single card gets exposed on the deal, they've declared a dead hand every time I've seen it happen.

That said, it would certainly have been good customer relations for them to allow the hand to continue. But I wouldn't hold it against them. I think most houses would've done the same.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Deucekies
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September 7th, 2014 at 5:48:23 PM permalink
Board cards or dealer cards revealed during the deal should result in a dead hand for game protection's sake. Once the hand is dealt, a dealer error should not, in my opinion, result in a dead hand, though the house has the right to call it such. Calling a dead hand in this case is a dick move by the house, and I wouldn't be surprised if the floor made that call based on the cards he was seeing in the dealer's hand.

What did the dealer have, by the way?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
AxiomOfChoice
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September 7th, 2014 at 5:54:41 PM permalink
It's not at all clear that the house has the right to do this. In which jurisdiction? The house can't call "no action" on a hand just because they are losing.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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September 7th, 2014 at 6:26:49 PM permalink
The house can call the hand dead based on their ICs.

On UTH/HUH games with hole card side bets (Pocket Bonus, etc.), they should pay the winners and push the losers.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 7th, 2014 at 6:56:45 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

The house can call the hand dead based on their ICs.

"ICs" ?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Hunterhill
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September 7th, 2014 at 7:12:03 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

"ICs" ?

Internal controls
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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September 7th, 2014 at 7:35:31 PM permalink
Yeah and any time that their "internal controls" say that it's a losing hand for them, they say "no action".
Twirdman
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September 7th, 2014 at 8:22:51 PM permalink
At the very least the hand should have been able to proceed for those who had already made a bet. There is no longer any decision for those players to make so the new information is useless to them. I can kind of see it being a no action for the other players but that one is definitely more tricky.
FunkyDoctor
FunkyDoctor
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September 8th, 2014 at 8:48:32 AM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

What did the dealer have, by the way?



I only got a quick look at the dealer's hand, as she turned them back face down quickly after realizing her error. While I don't remember exact cards, I do remember that it was a pretty weak hand. I don't recall whether the pit boss saw what the dealer's cards were or not.

I think what disappointed me the most about the pit's action was that it was taken immediately after learning the dealer's hand was exposed without any regard for the specific's of the situation (i.e. who may have already acted and how they acted in the hand) and what was fair for all involved. It was just a reactionary response of dealer exposed hand equals misdeal. That's what seems wrong to me.
Paigowdan
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September 8th, 2014 at 9:18:12 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yeah and any time that their "internal controls" say that it's a losing hand for them, they say "no action".


No, quite the opposite.
On dealers' errors, the house usually bends over backwards to pay winners and push any player losers.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
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September 8th, 2014 at 10:39:19 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

On dealers' errors, the house usually bends over backwards to pay winners and push any player losers.



That's a longevity play by the house. They're trying to prevent getting backed off by the players for taking a shot, most of the time.

They have enough edge, they can usually afford the cover play.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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September 8th, 2014 at 10:41:44 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No, quite the opposite.
On dealers' errors, the house usually bends over backwards to pay winners and push any player losers.



As they should. It's their error, after all.

I see no reason not to play the hand out. Its the dealer's error; why should the player suffer? This happened to me once. I had a crap hand so I let it go (I was happy to take the "no action"). If I had had a good hand I would have argued, and been willing to call gaming over it. The house can't just call a hand dead because it's not going well for them. That is cheating, pure and simple.
Romes
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September 8th, 2014 at 12:25:27 PM permalink
Quote: FunkyDoctor

Am I wrong here? Is a misdeal the correct call in this situation?


While I agree entirely with you that the hand should be played out as normal (or at least let players take no action), at the end of the day it's the pit critters decision unfortunately. There's nothing you can do to stop that in the moment and if you wanted to press it further it wouldn't be worth contacting gaming, etc, unless you were betting huge money or would have hit some huge bonus that would actually make it worth while.

Basically, it's just a poor managerial decision from the pit to piss players off when one hand of UTH doesn't effect very much. The best you could do to ensure it doesn't happen again is to contact guest services and inform them of the situation and the particular pit boss so hopefully they'll explain to him that those are pure profit games for the casino and he shouldn't be an idiot over one hand next time.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
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