Airline seat recline battles
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76 members have voted
Quote: EvenBobHandle what? I'm not preventing you from
reclining, it's your imagination. Making you
wish you never had after you do is where
the fun starts.
I agree, that is where the fun starts. If you were behind me messing with me I would be on the call button constantly until they decided to move you or have the plane diverted and you escorted off. You would definitely be the loser and I would have all of the fun.
Quote: chickenman^^^^^^^^^^^
Tree Top Airlines :-)
That name plus my open smoking/drinking policy blends into the perfect slogan.
"Tree Top Air. We're just high enough".
Trademark pending, all rights reserved =)
Quote: DRichAccording to Delta airlines that is not your right. I had an incident where the man behind me wouldn't allow me to recline. I asked nicely for him to quit pushing on my seat and he didn't do it. I rang the call button and the FA came over and addressed the issue. Told the man to let me recline my seat or she would move him. He protested so the FA made him move to another row and shoved him into a middle seat between two other passengers. I enjoyed his protests and the fact that he was now separated from his wife/girlfriend.
I'd love to get a legal opinion on this rather than airline policy. I have a difficult time understanding how space my knees are occupying as a result of sitting in a normal position in a seat assigned by the airline, on a purchased ticket, can be then taken away from me, as someone else moves into such space.
From a practical standpoint, I understand a passenger needs to follow the instructions of the flight crew or risk being detained. And, I completely understand and support this policy, I have no intention of creating a scene. But if I ask politely and someone won't compromise, then I have no reservations about making it uncomfortable for them on that flight.
Quote: MidwestAPI'd love to get a legal opinion on this rather than airline policy. I have a difficult time understanding how space my knees are occupying as a result of sitting in a normal position in a seat assigned by the airline, on a purchased ticket, can be then taken away from me, as someone else moves into such space.
I wouldn't be surprised if they addressed this the way they would with very large people where they make them buy a second seat. I know it isn't exactly the same, but since the airline offers reclining seats, if your body doesn't allow me to recline you are the one restricting me from the available feature. I think they would rule that you should buy bigger seats if offered, or buy multiple seats if necessary.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if they got rid of reclining seats.
Quote: MidwestAPI'd love to get a legal opinion on this rather than airline policy. I have a difficult time understanding how space my knees are occupying as a result of sitting in a normal position in a seat assigned by the airline, on a purchased ticket, can be then taken away from me, as someone else moves into such space.
From a practical standpoint, I understand a passenger needs to follow the instructions of the flight crew or risk being detained. And, I completely understand and support this policy, I have no intention of creating a scene. But if I ask politely and someone won't compromise, then I have no reservations about making it uncomfortable for them on that flight.
The legal stance is, the FAA has refused to rule on it, putting it back onto the airlines to regulate and set policy as they see fit. It is not a safety hazard, as reclining is allowed in the exact time frame that tray tables can be deployed, which the knee defender uses to foil the recline function.
If the airline claims "FAA regulations say", they are lying to get you to shut up and/or back down. FWIW, airlines often do this (lie, I mean, about regulations, reasons for delays, all kinds of things they push off onto the FAA). For that same reason. And much resented by those of us in the FAA who had to catch all the collateral crap from people about it.
Nearly all US airlines have outlawed the device and company policy is in favor of the recliner, not the person screwed over behind them.
Another interesting thing is that a Gallup poll done this week on the subject has a nearly identical outcome to the one above (first 2 answers).
The seat frames are mounted on rails in the fuselage. The airlines can configure any way they like. Right now, they like cramming. The overheads are modular components as well, with plastic spacers between the O2/lighting/air vents, all on flexible hoses. The best outcome would be for someone like JetBlue, which has better seat spacing, to stick it in the other airlines' faces and steal customers on this basis, force the situation the other way.
Quote: beachbumbabsWhat they need to do is to stop cramming so many seats into the airplanes. This is airline greed at its heart, and has been done gradually over a couple of decades, and they have simply gone too far. Seats have gone from 18.5 inches to 17 in the same time frame as they've shortened the leg room from 36 to 29-31. The pax are taking it out on each other because of proximity and perception.
The seat frames are mounted on rails in the fuselage. The airlines can configure any way they like. Right now, they like cramming. The overheads are modular components as well, with plastic spacers between the O2/lighting/air vents, all on flexible hoses. The best outcome would be for someone like JetBlue, which has better seat spacing, to stick it in the other airlines' faces and steal customers on this basis, force the situation the other way.
I know you know the airline industry more than any of us, but I see it as getting what you pay for. I pay less today to fly to Vegas, San Fran & Florida than I did 25 to 30 years ago. Other than TV's where can you get the value on your same dollar? I just booked Vegas mid December(yes I know it'd slow time) from Philly for $99 each way non stop. I will accept someone moving their seat back for these prices. Hell I almost spend as much on tolls from Reading PA to AC.
Quote: DRichuntil they decided to move you or have the plane diverted and you escorted off.
Again, you watch way too much TV. You
and a few others on here.
Quote: beachbumbabsThe legal stance is, the FAA has refused to rule on it, putting it back onto the airlines to regulate and set policy as they see fit. It is not a safety hazard, as reclining is allowed in the exact time frame that tray tables can be deployed, which the knee defender uses to foil the recline function.
If the airline claims "FAA regulations say", they are lying to get you to shut up and/or back down. FWIW, airlines often do this (lie, I mean, about regulations, reasons for delays, all kinds of things they push off onto the FAA). For that same reason. And much resented by those of us in the FAA who had to catch all the collateral crap from people about it.
Nearly all US airlines have outlawed the device and company policy is in favor of the recliner, not the person screwed over behind them.
Another interesting thing is that a Gallup poll done this week on the subject has a nearly identical outcome to the one above (first 2 answers).
But I believe that FAA regulations DO require you to follow their instructions, right?
So, once they tell you to do something, they are not really being dishonest in saying that FAA regulations require it... just being misleading about the reason that they told you to do it.
Quote: EvenBobAgain, you watch way too much TV. You
and a few others on here.
I've seen it happen to people (I fly a lot). The cops meet them right at the gate. It's always funny to try to hear them justify what they did.
bad boys, bad boys, what'cha gonna do?
Quote: MidwestAPI'd love to get a legal opinion on this rather than airline policy.
Rue the day when the law covers the angle seats can recline...
I've never been bothered by anyone reclining their seat in front of me, even during a meal (in the rare occasions it should still happen). So maybe I'm missing something and am being unfair to those whoa re bothered by it.
However, I have been bothered by many other things. People talking too loudly and not letting me sleep. The rather loud BONG!! from the call button which wakes me up when I can grab some sleep. People who set their AC in such a way that I catch a very uncomfortable draft. People who try to strike up a conversation when I'm trying to listen to an audiobook or am reading an e-book. People who get up when the snack cart is on the aisle and gum up the works (it's not a meal cart any longer). And far worse, people who attempt to pack so much into their carry-on they can't get it either in the overhead bin or under the seat in front.
While I'd like all these people not to ever annoy me, it's too much to expect they won't. On the main, too, they're not doing anything they shouldn't or that is unreasonable. I bring ear plugs, I wear a jacket (unless it's too hot) and otherwise just endure the lousy flight.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've seen it happen to people (I fly a lot). The cops meet them right at the gate. It's always funny to try to hear them justify what they did.
But I never do anything that can be pinned
down. You would be the one escorted off
for being hysterical. I'm always calm and
unassuming. You would be the one moved
on the plane, not me.
Quote: BozI know you know the airline industry more than any of us, but I see it as getting what you pay for. I pay less today to fly to Vegas, San Fran & Florida than I did 25 to 30 years ago. Other than TV's where can you get the value on your same dollar? I just booked Vegas mid December(yes I know it'd slow time) from Philly for $99 each way non stop. I will accept someone moving their seat back for these prices. Hell I almost spend as much on tolls from Reading PA to AC.
Your point is well taken, but you also live on a highly competitive route. It costs me 500-600/flight with a month or more pre-flight purchase, going from Orlando to Vegas, and that's the cheapest price range offered right now. With a week's notice, it's 800-1000. I didn't used to have to pay that much - it was 200-300 RT as little as 5 years ago.
Quote: TheBoneWhy are the seats allowed to recline? If the person sitting in them reclines, which is their "right" having purchased the seat, the only entity to be upset with is the airline for allowing the seat to recline.
Several have made this argument, that it is their "right" to recline, with no concern with about the passenger behind them, simply because it's an amenity that the airline offers.
If that's the reasoning, couldn't I swivel my overhead fan/vent in the direction of the person beside or in front or me simply because it's a feature that I 'paid' for? Now I know that many of those little fans allow less movement than in the past, but certainly not all. Of course I wouldn't do this, but that seems to be the position some others are taking, that just because it's available, it can be used in any fashion you want.
Quote: MidwestAPSeveral have made this argument, that it is their "right" to recline, with no concern with about the passenger behind them, simply because it's an amenity that the airline offers.
If that's the reasoning, couldn't I swivel my overhead fan/vent in the direction of the person beside or in front or me simply because it's a feature that I 'paid' for? Now I know that many of those little fans allow less movement than in the past, but certainly not all. Of course I wouldn't do this, but that seems to be the position some others are taking, that just because it's available, it can be used in any fashion you want.
The point is that the purpose of the seat being able to recline is so that you can recline. If the airline did not want you to be able to recline that far, the seat would not go back that far. If the airline did not want you to be able to recline at all, you would not be able to recline at all.
You are not using the feature "in any fashion you want"; you are using it in exactly the fashion which is was intended to be used, and, in fact, the only way that it can be used.
Why do you think that the seats have the recline button? Just to troll people?
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
Why do you think that the seats have the recline button?
My wife just bought a new car and it has
ashtrays. Are they trying to encourage her
to start smoking? Makes as much sense
as what you said. I automatically assume
my reclining the seat will make the person
behind me uncomfortable. I was taught to use
common courtesy in public, pity everyone
wasn't.
Quote: Nareed
I've never been bothered by anyone reclining their seat in front of me, even during a meal (in the rare occasions it should still happen). So maybe I'm missing something and am being unfair to those whoa re bothered by it.
Its not something that bothers me either.
But then I am 5 foot 8 in 165 lb, not a big guy.
I traveled to Vegas once on a full flight. Seated with a family of 4. Mother, 2 daughters and a father that was a huge guy. Not fat, just big.
Config was 3 and 3.
And what guy, they had 3 seats together and a middle. Huge father sucks it up and takes the middle between strangers, I had the aisle next to him.
The armrest had to stay up between us so he could fit in the seat.
Quote: terapined
But then I am 5 foot 8 in 165 lb, not a big guy.
.
There you go. Like Babs said, she's
almost 6' tall and it's not fun with
that seat in your face.
Quote: EvenBobMy wife just bought a new car and it has
ashtrays. Are they trying to encourage her
to start smoking? Makes as much sense
as what you said. I automatically assume
my reclining the seat will make the person
behind me uncomfortable. I was taught to use
common courtesy in public, pity everyone
wasn't.
The ashtray is there so that your wife can smoke if she wishes, just like the seats recline so that people can recline if they wish.
Which new car did she buy that has ashtrays standard? Those are generally an add-on now, just like a functioning cigarette lighter.
Quote: NareedI've never been bothered by anyone reclining their seat in front of me, even during a meal (in the rare occasions it should still happen). So maybe I'm missing something and am being unfair to those whoa re bothered by it.
However, I have been bothered by many other things. People talking too loudly and not letting me sleep. The rather loud BONG!! from the call button which wakes me up when I can grab some sleep. People who set their AC in such a way that I catch a very uncomfortable draft. People who try to strike up a conversation when I'm trying to listen to an audiobook or am reading an e-book. People who get up when the snack cart is on the aisle and gum up the works (it's not a meal cart any longer). And far worse, people who attempt to pack so much into their carry-on they can't get it either in the overhead bin or under the seat in front.
While I'd like all these people not to ever annoy me, it's too much to expect they won't. On the main, too, they're not doing anything they shouldn't or that is unreasonable. I bring ear plugs, I wear a jacket (unless it's too hot) and otherwise just endure the lousy flight.
I've never been bothered or annoyed by it either. I've been physically pained by it. I am flying next month; I will try to remember to take a picture of my seating arrangement and post it here.
Quote: MidwestAPMaybe I'm not clear, my point isn't what how much or how little the seat can decline, nor it is about my ridiculous example of the fan, it's about being considerate of those around you. In most situations, two reasonable people can compromise a reasonable solution, but for those who wish to be stubborn and unrelenting ....
The point is that when you point the fan at someone else, you are clearly using it in a way that it was not intended to be used. When you recline your seat, you are using it in exactly the way that it was intended to be used. It's not a good analogy.
interesting.
https://www.yahoo.com/travel/knee-defender-passenger-speaks-im-pretty-ashamed-96565361647.html
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe point is that when you point the fan at someone else, you are clearly using it in a way that it was not intended to be used. When you recline your seat, you are using it in exactly the way that it was intended to be used. It's not a good analogy.
That's not what is being (analogized?). It's between doing something that is causing discomfort and not being courteous to other people with the "I can so I will" attitude.
Quote: RSThat's not what is being (analogized?). It's between doing something that is causing discomfort and not being courteous to other people with the "I can so I will" attitude.
So, if I sit in the seat beside you, and that makes you uncomfortable (because now you have less shoulder/elbow room) does that mean that I should be required to sit somewhere else? No, of course not, because by sitting in the seat I am using it in the way that it was intended to be used. Same deal with reclining.
When you get on an airplane, the deal is that there will be other passengers there, they will sit in other seats, and they will recline if they wish to. If this makes you uncomfortable then don't get on the plane. It is completely unreasonable to expect others to refrain from doing these things because they make you uncomfortable.
Quote: terapinedKnee defender guy in recent seat dispute just went public with his side of the story.
interesting.
I am uncomfortable if I can't recline the seat. So, yes, if you've been blocking my seat with your knee defender, you should expect swift retaliation. It's not your call how far back I recline. You can ask, and if you're polite about it I might grant your request.
BTW, since the story implies there were empty seats, why didn't either of these jerks just move to a different seat?
I always thought ("always", right, like the first time I heard of this was like 4 days ago, whatever) that knee defenders were basically knee-pads like what a skateboarder or fruit-booter would wear.
I'm still pretty confused as to how that little screw/bolt combo thing can even make it so you can't recline. Or perhaps there's more to it than two little clips? o.O
When did cars start phasing out the ashtrays and cigarette lighters? I use my cigarette lighter to charge my phone, and I assume that's what everyone uses it for nowadays. The only time I've seen it used for its intended purpose was in the Goofy movie where Goofy and his son got stuck in their car because bigfoot was chasing them and they had to heat canned soup.
Smoking in airplanes: Up until what year could you do this? Wouldn't the non-smoking seats closest to the smoking suffer anyway? This reminds me of smoking and non-smoking areas in casinos, what's the point if they are both so close to each other? I like how some casinos build separate rooms for non-smoking.
BTW I am 5 6 and pretty short so airlines seats are just fine for me. I usually rush the front of the plane and find an open seat if there are any on long flights.
Quote: djatcWhen did cars start phasing out the ashtrays and cigarette lighters?
Beats me. My 2011 Corolla has both.
Quote: djatcRegarding ashtrays in cars and airpalnes:
When did cars start phasing out the ashtrays and cigarette lighters? I use my cigarette lighter to charge my phone, and I assume that's what everyone uses it for nowadays.
You are talking about the port that provides power. I'm talking about the part that you push in, wait a while for it to get hot, and pull out and light your cigarette.
The power port is still there, but on any car made in the last decade or so, the lighter is replaced with a cover doesn't do anything (you can pay extra to get the lighter, but they are not standard any more)
Quote: NareedBeats me. My 2011 Corolla has both.
My suv has 2 cig lighter outlets in the dashboard.
What's neat is I also have 2 outlets at the rear of the car.
I actually use the rear ones when camping to plug in and inflate my air mattress when camping.
Quote: Dicenor33Getting a private jet might be a good idea. Public transportation applies discomfort. It's included in a price.
I fly in our company plane every couple of months and I can tell you that it isn't comfortable. It is a small jet that holds 8 people pretty cramped together. Sadly, we don't have the G3 anymore.
Quote: terapinedMy suv has 2 cig lighter outlets in the dashboard.
What's neat is I also have 2 outlets at the rear of the car.
I actually use the rear ones when camping to plug in and inflate my air mattress when camping.
Yes, it has the outlets. How many lighters came with those outlets?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYes, it has the outlets. How many lighters came with those outlets?
1 lighter, which is never plugged in. 1 outlet for garmin GPS, other outlet to charge phone or tablet.
Quote: terapined1 lighter, which is never plugged in.
Really? How old is the SUV? Most manufacturers stopped making them standard long ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_lighter_receptacle#Use_as_an_electrical_outlet
"In newer cars, the socket often ships with a plastic dummy plug, without the lighter heating element due to declining popularity of smoking."
I like the writer's ending to this article: "Besides if you are so on edge that a reclining seat throws you into a rage -- you shouldn't be on a plane, you should be on a no-fly list."
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceReally? How old is the SUV? Most manufacturers stopped making them standard long ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_lighter_receptacle#Use_as_an_electrical_outlet
"In newer cars, the socket often ships with a plastic dummy plug, without the lighter heating element due to declining popularity of smoking."
2001 Isuzu Rodeo
Quote: beachbumbabsMy 2012 Hyundai Santa Fe came with a cigarette lighter. FWIW.
Really? Wow. I though that they were all the fake plastic caps now. That's what my '07 came with.
I wonder if this varies from state to state. I am in CA, where everyone is insane.
Quote: FaceOf course, I'd rather you lay your head in my lap than sit next to someone with 54" hips. Forget a knee defender, I want a sheet of plexiglass to jam between the seats to keep your ass out of my lap.
Agreed. I have been on flights where the person next to me overflows into my personal space. A firm boundary would be best. However, not sure this is allowed for safety as the armrests going up could be a safety precaution in event of evacuation.
DQuote: aceofspadesAgreed. I have been on flights where the person next to me overflows into my personal space. A firm boundary would be best. However, not sure this is allowed for safety as the armrests going up could be a safety precaution in event of evacuation.
I wish all the seats had those little walls like in the mens urinals and airbags in the seats in front of everbody in case of sudden stops. I really don't care that much if my seat cushion can be used as a flotation device.
Pay more money for more room.
It's an option.
What, you don't think it's worth it?
Then STFU.
Money talks.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo, if I sit in the seat beside you, and that makes you uncomfortable (because now you have less shoulder/elbow room) does that mean that I should be required to sit somewhere else? No, of course not, because by sitting in the seat I am using it in the way that it was intended to be used. Same deal with reclining.
Not the same. Sitting in a seat is required, they won't let the plane leave the gate without it. Reclining is optional.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhen you get on an airplane, the deal is that there will be other passengers there, they will sit in other seats, and they will recline if they wish to. If this makes you uncomfortable then don't get on the plane. It is completely unreasonable to expect others to refrain from doing these things because they make you uncomfortable.
I fly quite a bit as do you. I think we can all agree this is a problem the airlines have created, but when I get on a plane next week, I don't have the option to ask the airline to re-configure the seats to create more leg room, nor can I ask them to leave some seats open to create more space. I also can't control who is behind me or how large, small, tall, or short they are. But, what I can control is how I treat them. While I still enjoy flying (contrary to what it may seem like in this thread), the way they pack the planes now creates discomfort for many, up to and including pain for some. So, in these situations, I will happily make a very small sacrifice by not reclining as a courtesy to them. So, when I ask politely for the same courtesy from other fliers and I basically get the 'screw you', entitled attitude, yes, it bothers me.
Because this is one of those topics where people are pretty entrenched in their position, and my position is pretty clear, I will refrain from posting any more in this thread. I do appreciate the different viewpoints.
Quote: MidwestAPSo, when I ask politely for the same courtesy from other fliers and I basically get the 'screw you', entitled attitude, yes, it bothers me.
Here is the the thing about that entitled attitude. They are entitled to recline. You are not entitled to have them not recline. There is a very clear line, and you are on the wrong side of it. I would argue that the person demanding that someone not do something that they are clearly allowed to do is the one with the entitled attitude.
You seem to be assuming that the discomfort caused to you from them reclining is greater than the discomfort caused to them by not reclining. First, that's not clearly true at all. Second, even if it was clearly true, I still wouldn't agree with you. In the end, it's their choice, and every time you get on a plane with an economy class seat booked, you are agreeing to abide by their choice. If you don't like that, then don't put yourself in that situation. If you really can't fit comfortably into an economy class seat, then don't buy one.
Quote: aceofspadesAgreed. I have been on flights where the person next to me overflows into my personal space. A firm boundary would be best. However, not sure this is allowed for safety as the armrests going up could be a safety precaution in event of evacuation.
you have the airlines to thank for this. They keep making the seats smaller and smaller. A lot of airlines have 17 inch seats. I am bigger so I always book my flights on planes with larger seats. Although, now that we have 2 kids I will get to invade their space instead of a stranger.
http://www.seatguru.com/charts/shorthaul_economy.php
