harrah's AC lawsuit
Quote: SanchoPanzaWhy did the guards "have to stop her"? She and her mother were walking away.
No they were walking back towards the elevator.
Quote: FleaStiffLosing his cool because of their aggressive and demeaning behavior is their fault. If the clerk had behaved himself and the guards kept their distance there would be no problem at all.
The reason they were so close is because he was aggressive. I very much doubt he was politley chatting with the hotel clerk and then 10 Guards wandered up and decided to circle him for fun.
The security team probably observed him getting agressive with the hotel staff and either were called or acted on their own to protect the staff from the agressors (it is very possibly security initially knew nothing of the issue which caused his anger, they probably just saw some guy screaming at the hotel people).
Quote: FleaStiffIf the clerk had behaved himself
What did the clerk do or say that was innaproriate? We have no sound on the video but it looks like all of the employees are calm and look reasonable. I don't even remeber Binns in the interview claiming the clerk said something out of line to start the fight?
Just about any direction in these hotels, you're most likely headed in the direction towards an exit. Even walking toward one of hotel elevators, you can still also be headed towards an exit. None of the women posed any danger to anyone and their only crime was protesting the man being attacked which isn't a crime. If you don't understand the fundamentals, this case is too complicated to even make arguments. Arguing from just opinion does no good.Quote: GandlerBecause he was probably focusing on Binns who was the primary issue.
But I have never stayed at Harrah's so I am not familiar with the geography there, but the wife and daughter were heading towards the elevator (presumably to the room). Securite most likely told them to leave out the exit (I am assuming since they tried to kick Binns out) and told him to leave and they needed to stop them before they reached the elevator and had a chance to enter the hotel area.
Binns say they were kicked out after their keys repeatedly didn't work. The manager would have had to told them to live on the street obviously. I bow out from this thread.Quote: GandlerThe reason they were so close is because he was aggressive. I very much doubt he was politley chatting with the hotel clerk and then 10 Guards wandered up and decided to circle him for fun.
The security team probably observed him getting agressive with the hotel staff and either were called or acted on their own to protect the staff from the agressors (it is very possibly security initially knew nothing of the issue which caused his anger, they probably just saw some guy screaming at the hotel people).
What did the clerk do or say that was innaproriate? We have no sound on the video but it looks like all of the employees are calm and look reasonable. I don't even remeber Binns in the interview claiming the clerk said something out of line to start the fight?
Quote: onenickelmiracleBinns say they were kicked out after their keys repeatedly didn't work. The manager would have had to told them to live on the street obviously. You are Harrah's material and should start working there.
Remeber we are only getting one side of the story. Harrah's is not saying anything until trial.
However, yes he got kicked out. He says because of a system error. But that would not happen (maybe get kicked out of the hotel but not casino). A casino would never say "THERE IS A SYSTEM GLITCH LEAVE THE CASINO NOW AND NEVER COME BACK OR I WILL CALL SECURITY". That is completey unbeleiavable. A casino would not kick somebody out who has interest in staying there and has money to lose and is a known gambler. I'm sorry but that is absurd.
Here is what probably happened:
1. Binns locked out of room
2. Binns goes to front desk
3. Binns reports problem
-Front desk responds by saying there is no record of him there
4. Binns starts to get angry and probably asks them to check again
-they check again and say he is not staying there
5. Binns starts to get very angry and starts to use nasty words, and becomes too difficult for the clerk to reason with
-security is called. Escalation continues. and we know what happens from here...
Quote: FleaStiffIt was initially reported that Binns remembers dealing with one other clerk and with this clerk already in his two prior "keys not working" incidents that week end. Binns claim is that clerk lost his temper.
That could be true (though in none of the articles I have read was it mentioned nor did he say it in his TV interview). I am sure in the trial we will get more information from the Casino regarding their employees prior to security arriving.
Do you happen to have a link to footage of Binns interacting with the clerks(s) before the Guards come?
Quote: GreasyjohnOnce the family resisted forcefully their actions became violent and security had a right to forcefully restrain them. The struggle was the fault of the Binns.
Exactly. If a cop tries to restrain you
and you struggle in any way, you're
charged with resisting arrest. As soon
as security touched Binn, he started to
struggle violently. What should have
happened, they just let him run away?
Quote: EvenBobExactly. If a cop tries to restrain you
and you struggle in any way, you're
charged with resisting arrest. As soon
as security touched Binn, he started to
struggle violently. What should have
happened, they just let him run away?
Cops and security have way different rules to play by.
My question is at what point legally is it alright for security to lay hands on a person?
At the same time that you as an ordinary citizen who happens to be passing by has the right to.Quote: rainmanCops and security have way different rules to play by.
My question is at what point legally is it alright for security to lay hands on a person?
I would have to think there is some law regarding this.
What rights to you have to retrieve your personal belongings? car keys, medication, clothing, money.
I would assume the same at the same point as an ordinary citizen has.Quote: rainmanCops and security have way different rules to play by.
My question is at what point legally is it alright for security to lay hands on a person?
Exactly. They were leaving the scene of the altercation. Ergo, no probable cause, no reasonable suspicion, no threat of violence or harm. The failure to have a reason, as demonstrated so clearly right here over several days, is cause enough for a seven-figure judgment.Quote: SanchoPanzaWhy did the guards "have to stop her"? She and her mother were walking away.
Quote: GandlerNo they were walking back towards the elevator.
Quote: SanchoPanzaExactly. They were leaving the scene of the altercation. Ergo, no probable cause, no reasonable suspicion, no threat of violence or harm. The failure to have a reason, as demonstrated so clearly right here over several days, is cause enough for a seven-figure judgment.
Well that will be the determination for the jury. But again we still have not heard Harrah's viewpoint (and won't until trial).
But no, they were walking back into the casino by the looks (perhaps the elevator that accsesses the hotel tower) of it after being told to leave the casino. Entering a property after being told to leave and then ignorning further requests by secuirty to leave.
Based on many legal cases as well as numerous accounts here and elsewhere, that does happen quite frequently, if not daily. Ask any of the players who proclaim themselves "AP's."Quote: GandlerA casino would not kick somebody out who has interest in staying there and has money to lose and is a known gambler. I'm sorry but that is absurd.
An Innkeeper has rights to evict drunken or rowdy guests but there are requirements, they are a bit "loose" in New Jersey, much much tighter in Florida and most other states.
Even if arrested for cheating in the casino, the Innkeeper is not permitted to evict for a wrongful act committed at a concert hall, only something that establishes some wrongful conduct in the hotel, repeated noise, vandalism or threats to employees or other guests.
Where does the report about the mother and daughter being told to leave come from?Quote: GandlerThey were walking back into the casino by the looks (perhaps the elevator that accsesses the hotel tower) of it after being told to leave the casino. Entering a property after being told to leave and then ignorning further requests by secuirty to leave.
If that is borne out, first, they were not "entering a property." They were already in it. Second, hotel security guards do not have the right or legal power, except in the case of impending immediate harm to either or both of the two women, in this case, or the guards or passers-by to use direct brute physical force to control a situation how they want to.
Quote: SanchoPanzaWhere does the report about the mother and daughter being told to leave come from?
If that is borne out, first, they were not "entering a property." They were already in it. Second, hotel security guards do not have the right or legal power, except in the case of impending immediate harm to either or both of the two women, in this case, or the guards or passers-by to use direct brute physical force to control a situation how they want to.
Well they were down there as a family. I am assuming if Binns got kicked out they probably kicked the whole group out. It could be a wrong assumption, like I said, if/when Harrah's releases their details and logs we will know more specifics of their motives.
And if they were told to leave and they were walking the opposite way from the main exit then that is them refusing to leave. Watch the video of the daughter again she blantantly ignores what is obiously people telling her to leave and motioning for her to stop going that way.
INTERESTING. Anything regarding your rights on retrieving your belongings in the event of a legal lock out or eviction ? I assume you must be given a reasonable amount time to get them.Quote: FleaStiffAn Innkeeper has no right to evict a transient resident for gambling violations alleged to have taken place in the casino.
An Innkeeper has rights to evict drunken or rowdy guests but there are requirements, they are a bit "loose" in New Jersey, much much tighter in Florida and most other states.
Even if arrested for cheating in the casino, the Innkeeper is not permitted to evict for a wrongful act committed at a concert hall, only something that establishes some wrongful conduct in the hotel, repeated noise, vandalism or threats to employees or other guests.
Quote: AxelWolfINTERESTING. Anything regarding your rights on retrieving your belongings in the event of a legal lock out or eviction ? I assume you must be given a reasonable amount time to get them.
The difference is they were not knowingly evicted.
The hotel clerks had a glitch or computer error and could not find records of them being there.
Which caused Binns to get angry.
And then they had to remove him because of his aggressive attitude.
Since he was acting crazy and there were no records of him staying there they probably thought he was making things up to accsess somebody elses room.
Quote: AxelWolfI would like to know the laws regarding your rights when it comes to a hotel eviction if you are not within a reasonable distance to your home.
I would have to think there is some law regarding this.
What rights to you have to retrieve your personal belongings? car keys, medication, clothing, money.
I would like to know also. I have asthma. I always travel with an inhaler, it helps me breath when I have an asthma attack.
I generally leave the inhaler in my room, its only a couple min walk away.. Asthma attacks are kind or rare (I make sure to stay out of stressful situations) but happen.
What if I run into the same Binn situation. I have a room but am locked out and due to a computer glitch.
Front desk decides to call security to kick me out because a computer glitch
Due to all the stress of getting kicked out, I have an asthma attack.
Now I have difficult breathing, my inhaler is in my room.
Does the hotel actually have the right to hold my inhaler hostage simply due to a computer glitch like the Binn's, while I am having trouble breathing.
Is my only choice to call 911 for an ambulance, being able to breath is pretty dam important, It actually keeps me alive.
I miss missions hotel insights.
I have been locked out before but the hotel drilled the lock so I could get my stuff :-)
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/las-vegas-casinos/four-queens/12158-locked-out-during-my-stay/
Quote: FleaStiffAt the same time that you as an ordinary citizen who happens to be passing by has the right to.
If it turns out that security was well within their rights to get physically violent in this case, Then by watching the video it would mean I could do the same to anyone who is loudly and demonstratively objecting to what I am saying?
That's what's wrong with our country and the courts. We spend thousands of man-hours on frivolous lawsuits brought by rude people that are out of control who want millions for getting into a wrestling match that they themselves started. Don’t forget to play the race card.
Quote: GreasyjohnThe whole scuffle began when the Binns started physically flailing about in an aggressive and dangerous manner. Show the jury the video only up until that time, because anything after that and the Binns are responsible for putting themselves and the security personal in jeopardy.
That's what's wrong with our country and the courts. We spend thousands of man-hours on frivolous lawsuits brought by rude people that are out of control who want millions for getting into a wrestling match that they themselves started. Don’t forget to play the race card.
Well said. People love to jump on the bandwagon of hating the establishment. Nobody ever wants to admit that they acted innapropriatley. And lawyers love that mentality, the more lawsuits the better in their book...
Quote: GreasyjohnThe whole scuffle began when the Binns started physically flailing about in an aggressive and dangerous manner. Show the jury the video only up until that time, because anything after that and the Binns are responsible for putting themselves and the security personal in jeopardy.
That's what's wrong with our country and the courts. We spend thousands of man-hours on frivolous lawsuits brought by rude people that are out of control who want millions for getting into a wrestling match that they themselves started. Don’t forget to play the race card.
Wait a minute, you are saying the Binn's were the rude people?? They were registered guests at that hotel and had been for 2 nights. All of the sudden their room keys no longer worked and when they inquired about it, they were told they were there was no record of them being guests and they were being evicted from the property, without being allowed into the room to retrieve their belongings (medications, personal property, electronics, maybe money...who knows what they had), as if they were some kind of criminal, when they had in fact done nothing wrong. Harrah's has since admitted that there was a computer malfunction and the Binn's were in fact legitimate registered guests. So who is being rude???
Were the Binns upset? Sure. Put yourself in that situation. Would you be upset?
I must be watching a different video (LINK?)Quote: GreasyjohnThe whole scuffle began when the Binns started physically flailing about in an aggressive and dangerous manner. Show the jury the video only up until that time, because anything after that and the Binns are responsible for putting themselves and the security personal in jeopardy.
That's what's wrong with our country and the courts. We spend thousands of man-hours on frivolous lawsuits brought by rude people that are out of control who want millions for getting into a wrestling match that they themselves started. Don’t forget to play the race card.
I see him stop talking put his arms down and then the cowards jump on him.
NOW explain how his 17 year old daughter and wife were being aggressive and dangerous.
Anyone with even a cursory acquaintance of Harrah's knows that the "main entrance" is not the busy one. The busy entrance, especially for people who drive to the complex, is through the route to the garage, traversing the entire casino, with virtually no alternatives marked out or suggested.Quote: GandlerIf they were told to leave and they were walking the opposite way from the main exit then that is them refusing to leave.
Quote: AxelWolf
NOW explain how his 17 year old daughter and wife were being aggressive and dangerous.
Absolutely correct AxelWolf. The wife and daughter were heading for the door when they were attacked. Someone in this thread suggested they were heading to the elevator to go to the room. They weren't. That would have done no good as they knew their keys did not work. They were heading towards the door.
Attorney Bob Nersesian always says that you should head for the door. You have a legal right to exit, unless you are under arrest and being detained for the police. The wife and daughter were NOT under arrest, NOR were they being detained for the police. They had every right to leave, when they tried they were pursued and attacked.
You have to remember hotel security is NOT law enforcement. They have a right to hold a person if they are being detained for the police, with the intent of being arrested. That is the extent of their authority. These want-a-be cops took the law into their own hands.
Quote: SanchoPanzaAnyone with even a cursory acquaintance of Harrah's knows that the "main entrance" is not the busy one. The busy entrance, especially for people who drive to the complex, is through the route to the garage, traversing the entire casino, with virtually no alternatives marked out or suggested.
As I said before I have never been in Harrah's AC so I have no clue what is considered the main entrance. But it is very obvious that she was being instructed to go the other way and was blantantly ignoring and waving them off...
im quite sure she was confused , in shock and disoriented(attorney will say this), she just seen her husband get attacked by security. Security could have just blocked her path, they didn't need to grab her, she was no threat. she was clearly protecting her daughter from approaching security her hands were holding her daughters shoulders and she was not showing aggression or defiance.Quote: GandlerAs I said before I have never been in Harrah's AC so I have no clue what is considered the main entrance. But it is very obvious that she was being instructed to go the other way and was blantantly ignoring and waving them off...
They are getting paid on his one.
Quote: AxelWolfim quite sure she was confused , in shock and disoriented(attorney will say this), she just seen her husband get attacked by security. Security could have just blocked her path, they didn't need to grab her, she was no threat. she was clearly protecting her daughter from approaching security her hands were holding her daughters shoulders and she was not showing aggression or defiance.
Perhaps so. But her daughter blantantly resisted, she even pushed away/slapped at (or whatever the term is) at least once or twice (some of the angles are hard to tell) before they grabbed her...
Quote: AxelWolfThey are getting paid on his one.
You are possibly correct. In fact I would not be super suprised if that happens. Doesn't mean that I morally agree though.
they touched her first and came at her and her mom. THEY HAVE ZERO RIGHTS TO TOUCH A 17 YEAR OLD GIRLQuote: GandlerPerhaps so. But her daughter blantantly resisted, she even pushed away/slapped at (or whatever the term is) at least once or twice (some of the angles are hard to tell) before they grabbed her...
You are possibly correct. In fact I would not be super suprised if that happens. Doesn't mean that I morally agree though.
Quote: AxelWolfthey touched her first and came at her and her mom. THEY HAVE ZERO RIGHTS TO TOUCH A 17 YEAR OLD GIRL
If this happened a few months later at 18 would you feel different?
17 is not a little kid, she has full mental ability to make choices...
And they lightly tapped her army to stop her after she ignored them if that is what you mean by "touching her first", and she kept ignoring them still...
see in the video, imagine what the jury will say.
They will be divided also.
i GET IT NOW. I looked up some of your past posts(thinking how can one be so far off on their thinking, almost trollish like) they deal with bac betting systems and you even have similar views as Bob. You are just arguing to argue and getting your kicks, by taking the opposing side of what you knows right and exaggerating everything you say. You just want to ruffle feathers.Quote: GandlerIf this happened a few months later at 18 would you feel different?
17 is not a little kid, she has full mental ability to make choices...
And they lightly tapped her army to stop her after she ignored them if that is what you mean by "touching her first", and she kept ignoring them still...
Quote: AxelWolfi GET IT NOW. I looked up some of your past posts(thinking how can one be so far off on their thinking, almost trollish like) they deal with bac betting systems and you even have similar views as Bob. You are just arguing to argue and getting your kicks, by taking the opposing side of what you knows right and exaggerating everything you say. You just want to ruffle feathers.
What in my past posts are trollish? All of my posts regarding betting systems (though in retrospect yes, they sound stupid, but they are from my early casino days, plus I am pretty sure I only ever have posted 2 betting systems, maybe 3...) are respectful and in the proper section. In any case its wiser to get opinions are a betting system than to try it and risk losing a lot...
And when have I ever "exaggeratred everything"? I beleive to my memory that I have never gotten into an argument with anyone before this thread. And the reason that I am arguing so much is that everyone is jumping the bandwagon to bash Harrah's. I am doing nothing more than making a rational moral defense since everyone here and the media is on the Harrah's Hating bandwagon.
Quote: GandlerWhat in my past posts are trollish? All of my posts regarding betting systems (though in retrospect yes, they sound stupid, but they are from my early casino days, plus I am pretty sure I only ever have posted 2 betting systems, maybe 3...) are respectful and in the proper section. In any case its wiser to get opinions are a betting system than to try it and risk losing a lot...
Quote:IF YOU CONCISER January 28th, 2014, early casino days
Gandler "though in retrospect yes, they sound stupid" And so shall your views on this in 6 months. You will be saying "All of my posts regarding the Binnns (though in retrospect yes, they sound stupid)♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Quote: AxelWolfQuote: GandlerWhat in my past posts are trollish? All of my posts regarding betting systems (though in retrospect yes, they sound stupid, but they are from my early casino days, plus I am pretty sure I only ever have posted 2 betting systems, maybe 3...) are respectful and in the proper section. In any case its wiser to get opinions are a betting system than to try it and risk losing a lot...
Quote:IF YOU CONCISER January 28th, 2014, early casino days
Gandler "though in retrospect yes, they sound stupid" And so shall your views on this in 6 months. You will be saying "All of my posts regarding the Binnns (though in retrospect yes, they sound stupid)
Because this is an opinion that I still hold. And will continue to hold until I see evidence to the contrary. Unlike some I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong (as I have in the past) but accusing me of trolling for my political beleifs is absurd.
-And I fail to see about how asking about Betting systems is trolling? By that logic there are hundreds of "trolls" who have posted in that section.
You are clearly trying to find irrelevant snidbits in my past posts to devalue my argument here.
So besides the two or perhaps 3 betting system posts that you consider trolling, where have I "excessivley argued for the sake of arguing"? Because in those two posts I certainly did not argue (in fact few posts are more polite than my wording there) and agreed with the feedback.
The daughter threw her chin against Harrah's property and left a small but dirty and possibly slippery spot on the floor when she landed with security personnel on top of her.Quote: AxelWolfNOW explain how his 17 year old daughter and wife were being aggressive and dangerous.
Yea dragging the mother by the neck was amateur hr, not to mention the inappropriate touching of the 17 year old.Quote: 1BBIt's too bad the cops weren't called right away. They could have showed those amateur wannabes what a real beat down looks like. Clubs, dogs, choke holds etc. Ya gots ta do it right.
Quote: kewljWait a minute, you are saying the Binn's were the rude people??
Were the Binns upset? Sure. Put yourself in that situation. Would you be upset?
Yes, I would be frustrated but I wouldn't be a jerk about it. How does that help get to a resolution ? Obviously it didn't help in this case. There were mistakes made on both sides but who initiated it ? It looks to me like Mr. Binn did.
Show me where? I see him stop talking putting his hands DOWN holding them in a non threatening manner(any body langue expert will tell you this) almost looked as if he was standing in church, it looks like he gave up arguing. Then they pounced on him.Quote: JohnnyQIt looks to me like Mr. Binn did.
But let's forget about him for now. Explain how the wife and 17 year old girl were a threat to anyone?
Quote: JohnnyQThere were mistakes made on both sides but who initiated it ? It looks to me like Mr. Binn did.
Mr. Binn started it? I thought you sorta agreed that his agitated gesturing was in response to being locked out of his room by Harrah's with no help to get him back into it, no? Saying that he started it sounds a lot like the little kid who claimed, "The fight all started when he hit me back!"
Quote: kewljActually they ARE COPS. 2 of the security goons were off duty Atlantic city policemen that moonlight at Harrahs, which should be problematic for them. Your other point is a valid one. No one was being arrested, so there could not be any resisting. And under those circumstances the Mother and daughter had every right to walk away and when they did, they were pursued and attacked.
According to the ABC 20/20 piece all cops have now been banned from working off duty as AC casino security guards.
Quote: DocMr. Binn started it? I thought you sorta agreed that his agitated gesturing was in response to being locked out of his room by Harrah's with no help to get him back into it, no? Saying that he started it sounds a lot like the little kid who claimed, "The fight all started when he hit me back!"
Well none of us were there and therefore none of us know what really happened, or what instigated what.
I suspect the truth is that both sides could and SHOULD have handled it differently. AND that both sides were involved in escalating it. Having said that, the Security Staff should be trained in DE-escalating situations like this.
