Gambling and you. Please read post before voting.

I'm trying to understand more deeply the emotional attachment to playing different people feel for different reasons, and would appreciate your help in a few introspective areas. I don't think any one answer stands alone in the above choices, but I'm most interested in the most correct answer (if any) for you, rather than a true/false perspective on each statement. Also, if you can identify your primary reason for playing, and I didn't list it above, I'd like to hear it, either here or in PM if you don't want to identify publicly with it. Additional comments also welcome.

If this poll generates some good responses, I will follow it up with a couple of other questions more specific to what I'm trying to learn. Thanks in advance, guys; I appreciate it!

I play because I enjoy being in casinos and I can't make a living working my other job.

BBB I don't think there is an answer for me.

I play as entertainment with a chance to win a little money. I risk small amounts and always have fun.

>I play as my job, and it's like any other job.
I would be happy with this being true, but for me I'm just not good enough a card counter but would love the high roller lifestyle.
>I play as a job, and I love my job.
This would be even better: the RFB, Travel, and a steady income. Great.

>I play because I enjoy my one game.
IF I had a "one game" it would be craps. My definition of a casino is a craps table surrounded by other diversions.

>I play games I don't enjoy only cuz they're +EV.
I ain't found nothing to be plus EV.

>I play a variety of games for fun.
Variety in itself is important. Craps requires standing. And it goes thru the bankroll too fast.

>I play for the adrenalin rush of risking money.
I think we ALL do that.

>I play because I feel I have mastery over my game.
No way. I would LIKE this to be true, but its not.

>I like the social interaction in the casino.
I like MOST of the social interaction in a casino. Can do without noisy drunks.

>I play for the free drinks.
I ENJOY the free drinks, sometimes don't enjoy the timing of the Tray Lizard's arrival, but I enjoy the drinks and the fact that they are "free" ie, a dollar each. I'd still play even the drinks were 7-up or something. I'd still play if the Tray Lizards were fully dressed. And sometimes, I go a whole hour at the craps table forgetting that I have an untouched drink at knee level. So I enjoy the drinks very much, but I do not play with that goal.

>I play for the escape of the outside world
I think we all enjoy the festive atmosphere but in reality its part of the real world too. Think of Benny Binion. When he called you by name, you were SOMEBODY, no matter what lowly rut you had to go back to on Monday. This is part of the reason that gamblers never welshed on their markers. It was important to have a reputation. It was important to share Benny Binon's chilli.

Quote: GWAE

BBB I don't think there is an answer for me.

I play as entertainment with a chance to win a little money. I risk small amounts and always have fun.

GWAE,

Thanks for that; I'm sorry that there were only 10 choices, because that should have been one of them. If a statement like, "I play with entertainment money, over concerts or movies or whatever, because I enjoy it and I might win." would be truest for any of you, please +1 this. Thanks again, all!

I play because I like to eat every month, but still enjoy the games I play. I have no idea where that falls.

Quote: djatc

I play because I like to eat every month, but still enjoy the games I play. I have no idea where that falls.

I kind of wrote the second one with you in mind, but if it doesn't apply, only you know that.

I play games that I enjoy because they're +EV. Not as a job, but as an investment. It's money that I do not need. I also do enjoy playing and don't feel like it's a "job", but more of a serious hobby.

Aside from that, I also play recreationally, although rare. Separate bank, different reason, etc. I like to play craps for fun, but wouldn't risk my BR money on it. I'd use my extra-extra money to play craps or VP for fun.

I think you kind of missed an important one: Comps

Maybe the free drinks covers the rest of the comps too.

Although I consider myself a small part time AP, I definitely play for comps. Free suites and free high end dinners are things my wife and I enjoy and we are willing to risk money on even slightly negative plays to enjoy "free vacations".

Quote: beachbumbabs

GWAE,

Thanks for that; I'm sorry that there were only 10 choices, because that should have been one of them. If a statement like, "I play with entertainment money, over concerts or movies or whatever, because I enjoy it and I might win." would be truest for any of you, please +1 this. Thanks again, all!

nailed it
+1

Quote: DRich

I think you kind of missed an important one: Comps

Maybe the free drinks covers the rest of the comps too.

Although I consider myself a small part time AP, I definitely play for comps. Free suites and free high end dinners are things my wife and I enjoy and we are willing to risk money on even slightly negative plays to enjoy "free vacations".

I think you're right in both directions. I am including free drinks as a microcosm of comps as a group, and it is a significant consideration, but I'm kind of trying to dive beneath that to understand the emotional content, so I was attempting to move away from some of the economics of gambling.

However, the free drinks has another component, in the specific interest in alcohol, which on its own has an emotional content for some people, but might be the primary thing. I have known more than one person, and seen comments on here, where the point of playing bartop quarter VP 1x and slloooowwwwly was to get drunk, not to gamble. If they could get the free drinks withOUT playing, they wouldn't play anything.

I also play in part because I get what I consider great comps; nice rooms, free food, etc, excuses to travel, meet people who enjoy what I like. But if they didn't offer those things, I would still play, because in my case, I play because I love the games themselves. Not the casino or the amenities. Just a good game that puts my brain in a different zone, endorphins or whatever is going on, and I have to go to casinos to play them.

I play because anything is possible and because things may be also predictable.

Your plane may crash but probably won't and if it does, there is still a minute chance you'll live.

Self-reporting has it's flaws especially with gamblers likely to be in denial.

I just love playing the games I love. Roulette, Craps, Blackjack, 3CP, hold'em. I would even play slots in Macau as the table game limits are too high for me.

I don't like all casino's atmosphere but generally speaking I love casinos. I have been working or gambling in casinos since I was 16 years old.......(18 is the legal age for gambling in South Africa).

Now, for me it is almost like casinos are an integral part of who I am, completely consumed me. I wouldn't say I'm addicted to gambling as I don't gamble every day and I don't spend very much at all while doing it BUT, If I had to choose between going gambling and going to the Opera.......well I guess you know what I would choose :)

Quote: DRich

I think you kind of missed an important one: Comps

Maybe the free drinks covers the rest of the comps too.

Although I consider myself a small part time AP, I definitely play for comps. Free suites and free high end dinners are things my wife and I enjoy and we are willing to risk money on even slightly negative plays to enjoy "free vacations".

One thing great about gambling is that with self-control and an understanding of numbers, you will be rewarded with much more then the action you give the casinos. If the comps you receive is greater then the expected loss you are already ahead. When I gambled for fun on vacations to Las Vegas I played some games that I wouldn't today because they don't have an advantage but I enjoyed the free rooms, free food, and freeplay I would receive. I went from paying for rooms at El Cortez to staying on a comp at Caesers Palace.

I note there is not a choice of "I play because I am a degenerate, compulsive gambler."

Did you somehow believe there are no such gamblers at this site, or did you doubt that anyone would 'fess up to it?

Quote: MrV

I note there is not a choice of "I play because I am a degenerate, compulsive gambler."

Did you somehow believe there are no such gamblers at this site, or did you doubt that anyone would 'fess up to it?

I am a degenerate gambler. I absolutely fess up to it. I admit it straight up, will never deny it. I will be clear on this point.
And a gaming mathematician now. (Former software/programmer guy back in NYC is a past life. University degree in CS/math).
And a former dealer of 7 years (Stations).
And a former mainframe computer analyst (20 years, 1985-2005 in NYC).
And a game designer.

And let me tell you:
1. I cannot picture my life without gambling/prop bets/action being a part of it. Gambling is as necessary as Oxygen. Or food. Or sex. A life force. Our very being.

2. A game designer is first a gambler (for "the game has the juice" - #1 requirement), then a dealer (deal-able is a requirement), then a mathematician (game math is perfect, a requirement), then a businessman/woman with lawyers (patent and litigation attorneys).

3. See #1. cycle through again....

4. That cat is me. See #1.

To be honest.... I play due to the lure of "easy" and tax free money.. I work my ass off at home and make a real good living but as all of us know after taxes, 401k and medical insurance I have only 1/2 left. Not complaining at all!. I love the RFB concept. 1000s and 1000s in comps. I DONT PLAY FOR COMPS! At least that's what I say. I think on some level I like being called Mr. MDS and treated like a king. The funny thing is I can only take 3 days of being a "King"..
I am willing to lose ONLY a certain % of my bank roll to make 100* my bankroll as I am very disciplined. I know, good luck. But, I have been lucky, blessed or good and have won many more times than I've lost. Based on what I play I know I have been lucky. The casinos should bend over backwards and line up for a player like me. Or should I say, eventual loser like me.
So, I guess until I lose everything I have set aside for Vegas I will continue to go. Be there again in 3 weeks.
Ask yourself this, if you win a life changing amount of money would you stop gambling? I don't think I would. It is never enough..

Quote: MrV

I note there is not a choice of "I play because I am a degenerate, compulsive gambler."

Did you somehow believe there are no such gamblers at this site, or did you doubt that anyone would 'fess up to it?

No, I specifically did not, because that's either a diagnosis or a judgement, but stops the discussion I'm trying to have regardless. I'm not interested in labeling addictive behavior, because it's a response. I'm interested in stimuli, in the emotional investment people are willing to make in playing, as opposed to the economic value, which is in some ways and in some cases a justification for satisfying the emotional craving.

Craps is an addictive game for some. (Not me.) Baccarat is addictive for others. (Not me.) PGP is addictive to me; there's something in that game that satisfies my inner gamer. Not enough to travel 2 hours each way to play it regularly (like I could in Tampa, but haven't been there for several years), but enough to play 12 hours a day for 4 days if I'm somewhere I can do that, which happens a couple times a year if I'm lucky. ("Somewhere" encompasses time, bankroll, other social commitments, the right paytables, 2 hands, several other personal preferences.) But I will choose Fortune PGP over any other game in a casino, and have for 20+ years, even though I play all the others as they come out. UTH comes closest.

So, what is it about THAT game that brings me back to it continuously, over all the others? What is it about BlackJack for those JackHeads? Craps for some of you? Roulette? Poker marathoners? What is it that DRAWS you in, keeps you there, makes you come back to it, win or lose? That's what the next question is about, which I referred to in my first post.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: MrV

I note there is not a choice of "I play because I am a degenerate, compulsive gambler."

Did you somehow believe there are no such gamblers at this site, or did you doubt that anyone would 'fess up to it?

I am a degenerate gambler. I absolutely fess up to it. I admit it straight up, will never deny it. I will be clear on this point.
And a gaming mathematician now. (Former software/programmer guy back in NYC is a past life. University degree in CS/math).
And a former dealer of 7 years (Stations).
And a former mainframe computer analyst (20 years, 1985-2005 in NYC).
And a game designer.

And let me tell you:
1. I cannot picture my life without gambling/prop bets/action being a part of it. Gambling is as necessary as Oxygen. Or food. Or sex. A life force. Our very being.

2. A game designer is first a gambler (for "the game has the juice" - #1 requirement), then a dealer (deal-able is a requirement), then a mathematician (game math is perfect, a requirement), then a businessman/woman with lawyers (patent and litigation attorneys).

3. See #1. cycle through again....

4. That cat is me. See #1.

You're on my wavelength, Dan. The juice. I want the guts of that meaning. And #2 in your list is a big part of it; I don't think, without loving cards and loving playing, your brain works to create new ones, to see the possibilities, the excitement of making the juice flow with great games, great features, great opportunities. Definitely part of the discussion. Thanks.

Deleted. Drunk talk.

Quote: mds

To be honest.... I play due to the lure of "easy" and tax free money.. I work my ass off at home and make a real good living but as all of us know after taxes, 401k and medical insurance I have only 1/2 left. Not complaining at all!. I love the RFB concept. 1000s and 1000s in comps. I DONT PLAY FOR COMPS! At least that's what I say. I think on some level I like being called Mr. MDS and treated like a king. The funny thing is I can only take 3 days of being a "King"..
I am willing to lose ONLY a certain % of my bank roll to make 100* my bankroll as I am very disciplined. I know, good luck. But, I have been lucky, blessed or good and have won many more times than I've lost. Based on what I play I know I have been lucky. The casinos should bend over backwards and line up for a player like me. Or should I say, eventual loser like me.
So, I guess until I lose everything I have set aside for Vegas I will continue to go. Be there again in 3 weeks.
Ask yourself this, if you win a life changing amount of money would you stop gambling? I don't think I would. It is never enough..

If magically there was no way to make money gambling. I would get out of Vegas. Not in fear I would gamble but just because it wouldn't seem interesting. I would only gamble with friends to have a small amount of fun with them, I would only play games that were new and fun. I see no diffidence in someone playing A 99.5 game and losing 100 in value. or a guy playing an 80% game and losing 100 in value. One guy is just a loser for a longer period of time.

Gambling is about survival. Can you survive in gambling? If you can't then get the hell out of it. You can bet the farm that I can survive in gambling. But then I'm a daisy.

I'm surprised by the percentage of non-AP this forums has according to the poll.

Quote: mickeycrimm

But then I'm a daisy.

????
I think there is an adrenaline rush to the event. Consider too my criteria for a shooter and some of my present and former habits.

If a shooter is loud, vulgar and rude, I go to the Dark Side. If the shooter is a happy young couple on their honeymoon, I'm on the Pass Line with them all the way.

Consider my days back when Circus Circus had just opened its buffet and was full of young couples and strollers. I immediately liked the place because the doors had really prominent warnings about pets in cars. (One security vehicle each shift was a pick up truck with a wire cage in it). I'm an animal lover, I like that. That made the place special for me.

Circus Circus had these certificates, play for a while and get the certificate stamped and you've got a FREE trip through the buffet, when I left Vegas, I played enough to get one or two certificates stamped and on my way out of the casino, I'd give them to some young couple that looked as if they could really use them.

On my way to the casino, if I come across some sweet young thing making use of a narrow, teensy little reflective strip to check herself out I say "Don't worry, Love, you look gorgeous". If you encounter someone checking out while you are enroute to the elevators, its always "I hope you did well".

Its a "be of good cheer" attitude. Approach the table with a Pass Line bet ... AND one for the dealers. If you've won big, walk back to your room with chips in your pocket for toke bets at the craps tables that you pass. Even the higher limit ones at which you've not played at all.

Long ago I was in a Vegas casino that was really slow and four girls asked the Pit if they could use some unused roulette layout to practice payoffs. So I stopped to talk to the four girls and asked them what it was like to work in a casino and asked them a bit about payoffs in roulette. After a while, I went to the Pit Boss and said that the young girls had taught me how to play roulette and that I'd be back later to break the bank. That way, the girls didn't get in trouble and the Pit could see they had snagged a player.

Even several years ago when I started doing the Florida craps boats, as the passengers disembark all the dealers are lined up on the dock shaking hands and all the craps dealers would be there in a group calling out my name as I went by and thanking me.

When a dealer gave a stack of reds to the wrong player who promptly took it and left, I knew he would get written up for it, but I'm not going to be silent. He had to make good on my money, but I was careful to give him a good many toke bets. I wasn't going to hold a grudge and I didn't want the casino to either.

It's sort of an atmosphere that is created and maintained: Be cheerful, have fun. Ignore the loud drunks and loud music.
Sure its "addicting" to some extent, but that is what you would want if there were no gambling going on. If you were just in some Irish Pub, everyone downing Guinness and singing. Same sort of atmosphere in a casino. Everyone focuses on their winnings, no one focuses on their losses; everyone cheerful and optimistic. And if some guy comes to the table and is rude to his wife and rude to the dealers, that is what the Dark Side is for: Bet against the jerk.

Quote: Paigowdan

I am a degenerate gambler.

I have to assume this is a little tongue in cheek. A little shocking.

To me, anyway, this is not admitting something similar to recreational drug use, but more like admitting to being a hopeless Crack addict that is about to be thrown in jail for robbing people to support the habit.

Quite shocking to use such an expression.

Quote: odiousgambit

I have to assume this is a little tongue in cheek. A little shocking.

To me, anyway, this is not admitting something similar to recreational drug use, but more like admitting to being a hopeless Crack addict that is about to be thrown in jail for robbing people to support the habit.

Quite shocking to use such an expression.

I had thought about starting a thread a little while back about this. I was wondering what everyone thought about themselves.

Do you suppose when poeple vote the whole spectrum it renders the poll meaningless?

Quote: beachbumbabs

GWAE,

Thanks for that; I'm sorry that there were only 10 choices, because that should have been one of them. If a statement like, "I play with entertainment money, over concerts or movies or whatever, because I enjoy it and I might win." would be truest for any of you, please +1 this. Thanks again, all!

+1. I often go to the casino over other entertainment options like a show because I know I will always be down cash after a show but after a casino run I might be up.

Where is the degenerative addict checkbox?

You know, you go because you feel like you have to, despite the fact that you have no money to play with, and play stupid games with no regard for the outcome, and you just keep clicking on spin (or betting at the table) until you run out of money, and then run to the bank because you've hit your withdrawal limit for the day but still need to play?

There are likely a few of those in here...

Why do I gamble in a casino?

Probably the biggest reason is the possibility that I am going to leave with more money than I came with. It is the same reason I make day trades, or swing trades. I am not all consumed by playing craps, but at the same time, I have on occasion played craps for 20+ hours over a 2 day span, and I am sure many would consider that to be excessive.

As DRich pointed out, it is also about the comps at this point. I was looking back at my records, and we have been to Vegas 13 times now. Mostly 4 day trips, but some 5s and a couple of 7 days. Have not paid for a room any of those times. Six of the flights were free, the rest I paid for the flight. Eating with comp dollars, going to New Years Eve party, free dinner at Voodoo lounge, etc. The perks are nice.
Also been to Biloxi, MS seven times now, and have never paid for the flight or room. Have had fabulous meals, couples massages, played golf on the number one course in MS twice, etc. all mostly due to my desire to play craps.

So, in the end, my wife and I get to enjoy 2 or 3 get away vacations a year, AND, I have a chance to come home with more money than we left with. On those occasions when I come home busted? Well, I still got quite a bit for my money. Sure, it was over priced for that trip, but when I add all the trips we have taken, and where I am for life time win/loss, we are way ahead in value.

What if comps did not exist, you ask?

I'm not sure I would make a whole trip based on just playing craps. Oh sure, if I am going to be near a casino during some travel, I will certainly fit in a craps visit, but I'm not sure that would be the destination.

The NCL cruise, with the good craps rules, was a perfect Getaway (inside joke is the ship name was the Getaway). Plenty of non-gambling stuff to see and do, and yet the casino was right there every night.

None of the poll answers seems to fit, and yet most all of them do. No one answer was best to me.

Quote: Nareed

Do you suppose when poeple vote the whole spectrum it renders the poll meaningless?

That is the bigot option.

Evidently, I found this thread when I got home from the bar last night. I see that I already voted. I can't remember which one I voted for but I can guarantee you it was one of the top two. I had to delete one of the posts I made. "I'm a daisy" can be attributed to Doc Holliday who was quoted as saying "Ain't that a daisy." I gamble for the money. The thing is I don't even need the money anymore. I got plenty of it. And I made it all gambling. So why do I still do it? It's the principle of the thing. The money is there to be made. I don't have any thing better to do. So I may as well go make the money. My only regret is it took me 40 years to find my true calling. I excel as a gambler. I am damn good at it. And I better be because I'm piss poor at everything else.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm trying to understand more deeply the emotional attachment to playing different people feel for different reasons, and would appreciate your help in a few introspective areas. I don't think any one answer stands alone in the above choices, but I'm most interested in the most correct answer (if any) for you, rather than a true/false perspective on each statement. Also, if you can identify your primary reason for playing, and I didn't list it above, I'd like to hear it, either here or in PM if you don't want to identify publicly with it. Additional comments also welcome.

If this poll generates some good responses, I will follow it up with a couple of other questions more specific to what I'm trying to learn. Thanks in advance, guys; I appreciate it!

The only one I picked from the list is "I gamble because of the free drinks." Which is absolutely true; I love catching a nice buzz for $1/drink.

But I don't feel there was a good choice for the recreational sometimes-AP like myself. I play blackjack because I know I have an edge, and I also enjoy the game. But I play (a smaller amount of) craps even though I know I don't have an edge, because I enjoy the game. Craps and +EV BJ make up 99% of my gambling activity.

It's not my job...I don't play games I don't enjoy...I don't play a "variety" of games...I wish I had mastery over blackjack, but I don't.

Quote: RaleighCraps

No one answer was best to me

Go ahead and click on all of em then [g]

I play multiple games for fun. Mostly craps and blackjack. My wife loves roulette, so I end up at the roulette table from time to time as well. I'm not big on slots. I will play video poker for a free drink. I have never played poker in a casino, but love to play nickel/dime/quarter poker with friends.

Quote: odiousgambit

I have to assume this is a little tongue in cheek. A little shocking.

To me, anyway, this is not admitting something similar to recreational drug use, but more like admitting to being a hopeless Crack addict that is about to be thrown in jail for robbing people to support the habit.

Quite shocking to use such an expression.

No, not really. What I have been spending at casinos is not an occasional $100 buy-in after a dinner and the movies, sheesh, I'll say that.
I've been consistently spending a LOT, and while surviving comfortably, I have been living a lower lifestyle.

Look, I live in an apartment and own an American car - when I really could have had in my life a HOUSE and a BMW, or a bigger 401(k) - if no gambling. I see more movies and less live shows, and the only other thing I really maintain in the nightlife area is steakhouse and top-tier dining. My other recreation is to read a book with a 60 watt light bulb, among other frugal things.

THIS is a big life decision that I've made, and some would argue that "it had been made for me" (which is NOT true.)

And enough people had said it's a serious habit, that it is UNREASONABLE and irrational use of discretionary money. I can see how they see that. I will say that
I do not miss my car payments, rent, and what have, but it is no small change - and I certainly do NOT rob or skim money or do anything like that in the "crack addict" sense you state.

I take an attitude of open honesty about it, in the sense that the action is an important part of my life, and the amount spent on it would make a civilian's head shake. I mean in terms of "that money really could have been spent elsewhere to my own logic."\

But it all helps immensely - and remarkably - in detailed and accurate games analysis and assessments that I do in my business. I've got a very good pulse on what games and game mechanisms will or will not work, and how to shape and fine-tune games, to produce or evaluate games that'll REALLY appeal strong to a gambler and work in the end.

I am a probabilist and I like games of luck. Where does it fit in?

Yet I prefer Blackjack or Caribbean (Oasis) Poker or VideoPoker, because you have to understand chance and apply a strategy. I'm not interested in Roulette or Craps or Baccarat.

Quote: Paigowdan

I take an attitude of open honesty about it

That's a good sign, anyway, no "denial".

So make me happy and don't say "Gambling Degenerate". I'd even prefer "Gambling Fiend" [g]

Quote: ChampagneFireball

+1. I often go to the casino over other entertainment options like a show because I know I will always be down cash after a show but after a casino run I might be up.

Precisely. And with three new sequels to Avatar coming down the pike, I'd rather go to the casino Blackjack than sit thru any thing thats been coming out of Hollywood recently.

Quote: odiousgambit

That's a good sign, anyway, no "denial".

So make me happy and don't say "Gambling Degenerate". I'd even prefer "Gambling Fiend" [g]

Okay - fair enough. That's a good way of putting it.

Quote: Neutrino

I'm surprised by the percentage of non-AP this forums has according to the poll.

Why is it surprising? This site has never been promoted as an AP site. I am a recreational gambler, started reading the odds site years ago, and that led me here.

Quote: Paigowdan

I've been consistently spending a LOT, and while surviving comfortably, I have been living a lower lifestyle.

I'm constantly surprised that those of us who gamble recreationally must forever defend our choices. As if the only two optiosn were Ap or degenerate gambling addict.

Quote:

Look, I live in an apartment and own an American car -

There are a lot of good points to appartments. One is having a view (I should take a photo from my living room someday), another, not inconsiderable, is not haing to walk downstairs to reach the kitchen or the washing machine.

Quote: jml24

Why is it surprising? This site has never been promoted as an AP site. I am a recreational gambler, started reading the odds site years ago, and that led me here.

+1.
Sometimes just non-fancy, plain ol' salt-of-the-earth gamblers participate.

One of things needed to be mentioned on "gambling juice" - in the mentioned view of gambling degenerates/fiend/serious gamblers is the intense level or depth of being hooked in on the action in a different way.....

A serious poker player plays at such a different level than a modest recreational gambler, that that needs to be looked at a bit more closely to see where the "apparent intensity/degeneracy" begins.....

The heavy-duty player will be operating on such a wider and deeper scale in play that his experience is just not the same.
He sees ALL the outs of a half-dozen players, the flush draws and straight draws over two pairs, deduces what each player is holding, then factoring the value of the pots odds, where it ALL fires together and comes together, the juice of the full experience of executing or experience the play is WAY beyond the player who says..."1...2...3...4, - oh!...I have four to the flush, so I think I'll chunk..." The serious gambler knows how - and is extracting the full "juice" of everything that is going down in a busy game that the experience of this "action hook-in" is compared to and viewed as some sort of a drug high like where dope slams into the neurons, - when it is just full out participation of the action in a way that no ploppie or recreational player can "get."

It's like comparing a race-car driver who sees 360* around him and five miles down the road while shifting better than the tachometer, to a soccer mom-or-dad just pressing the brake when approaching a red light. Or a musicologist hearing every instrument in an all-out orchestral piece, to someone just barely recognizing the theme of a major work.

When a gambler hooks into his action or passion and a wider and deeper level, it can appear perverse, (and it is when it damagingly takes over).

Quote: Neutrino

I'm surprised by the percentage of non-AP this forums has according to the poll.

I'm surprised how many people consider themselves APs.

Recreational gamblers have got to outnumber APs by what? 1,000,000 to 1?

Quote: TerribleTom

I'm surprised how many people consider themselves APs.

Yeah, exactly.

I wonder what percentage of supposed APs are actually playing with an overall edge?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I wonder what percentage of supposed APs are actually playing with an overall edge?

Probably the same percentage as the dice influence crowd.

Quote: TerribleTom

Probably the same percentage as the dice influence crowd.

Lol, well, no. There are some people who actually do have an edge. But I'd guess that it's about than 10 or 20 % of the people who think that they do.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Lol, well, no. There are some people who actually do have an edge. But I'd guess that it's about than 10 or 20 % of the people who think that they do.

At least I got the LOL.

Do you think that 10-20% of the folks that think they've got some influence on the dice actually do, or is that an even small number?

Quote: TerribleTom

At least I got the LOL.

Do you think that 10-20% of the folks that think they've got some influence on the dice actually do, or is that an even small number?

0% of people influence the dice on legal rolls. There are a few cheaters who slide the dice, but out of honest craps players, they are all long-term losers. Just like all the people who think that they are beating baccarat or roulette with bet progressions or bet selection... these are the casino's best customers. Someone who is playing for fun will only lose as much money as they are willing to spend on fun, but someone who think that they are beating the game will keep coming back to lose more and more.

But even if we exclude all that nonsense, I'm wondering what percentage of people who are playing beatable games and think that they have an edge actually have that edge. For example, out of all the wannabe card counters at blackjack, how many of them are actually +EV overall? Or, out of all the video poker players trying to get more in freeplay or whatever than their play is worth, how many are successful at it (from an EV standpoint)?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

0% of people influence the dice on legal rolls. There are a few cheaters who slide the dice, but out of honest craps players, they are all long-term losers. Just like all the people who think that they are beating baccarat or roulette with bet progressions or bet selection... these are the casino's best customers. Someone who is playing for fun will only lose as much money as they are willing to spend on fun, but someone who think that they are beating the game will keep coming back to lose more and more.

But even if we exclude all that nonsense, I'm wondering what percentage of people who are playing beatable games and think that they have an edge actually have that edge. For example, out of all the wannabe card counters at blackjack, how many of them are actually +EV overall? Or, out of all the video poker players trying to get more in freeplay or whatever than their play is worth, how many are successful at it (from an EV standpoint)?

I'd guess that very few card counters are genuinely operating at +EV, and that the number that are operating +EV are working with a very slim advantage.

My idea of +EV from VP is tossing a $20 into the VP machine, playing slowly and hitting a hand or two so I can cash out with my $20 and a few free drinks. Hell, even if I can cash out with $15 and tip $1/drink it's three drinks for $8. I can live with that.

I suspect that casinos make a lot of money from fools that think they're better than they are.