Gambling and you. Please read post before voting.
Poll
 | 9 votes (10%) | ||
| | 11 votes (12.22%) | ||
| | 8 votes (8.88%) | ||
| | 8 votes (8.88%) | ||
| | 44 votes (48.88%) | ||
| | 20 votes (22.22%) | ||
| | 10 votes (11.11%) | ||
| | 15 votes (16.66%) | ||
| | 13 votes (14.44%) | ||
| | 29 votes (32.22%) |
90 members have voted
Quote: TerribleTomI'd guess that very few card counters are genuinely operating at +EV, and that the number that are operating +EV are working with a very slim advantage.
My idea of +EV from VP is tossing a $20 into the VP machine, playing slowly and hitting a hand or two so I can cash out with my $20 and a few free drinks. Hell, even if I can cash out with $15 and tip $1/drink it's three drinks for $8. I can live with that.
I suspect that casinos make a lot of money from fools that think they're better than they are.
Yes, I suspect that too.
Some casinos will give you much more in freeplay, etc, than your play is worth, if you play optimally. The edges tend to be tiny though, so you need to be careful. Make a few mistakes, or play for too long, and your edge is gone. Apparently there are sometimes good promotions which can give you large edges, but I've never found any of them. I'd be thrilled with 1% at VP.
I'm surprised that you are surprised. Didn't you see the forums about craps, baccarat, roulette, slots, etc.?Quote: NeutrinoI'm surprised by the percentage of non-AP this forums has according to the poll.
Most of us come from the WizOfOdds site, with info on a lot more games, all non AP. Except for poker (to the best players), counting baccarat (Edit:) blackjack (best rules and no CSM) and one or two versions of VP, what is AP?
Quote: TerribleTomMy idea of +EV from VP is tossing a $20 into the VP machine, playing slowly and hitting a hand or two so I can cash out with my $20 and a few free drinks.
If you know, or can consult, a good strategy and have the right VP, then playing with an edge is easy. It helps to play often, too. I recommend starting with the Loose Deuces at the D. At $0.05 per coin the investment is small, and the strategy for deuces is easy to learn.
Quote:I suspect that casinos make a lot of money from fools that think they're better than they are.
Plenty.
At that, what is worse:
A) someone with a reasonable AP scheme, like card counting, hole-card spotting, or something similar, who really doesn't do it right(*) or lacks the bankroll to ride out the variance, or
B) someone with a system.
(*) I've heard of people trying to count cards at electronic BJ machines, at tables with continuous shufflers, and I expect very bad rules can render even counting irrelevant.
Quote: kubikulannI'm surprised that you are surprised. Didn't you see the forums about craps, baccarat, roulette, slots, etc.?
Yeah but half of the people on those forums think that they are beating those games :)
Quote:Most of us come from the WizOfOdds site, with info on a lot more games, all non AP. Except for poker (to the best players), counting baccarat
Please, please, please have meant "blackjack"...
Quote:(best rules and no CSM) and one or two versions of VP, what is AP?
Naaah, lots of games are beatable. That doesn't mean that lots of people are beating them,
Aouch !Quote: AxiomOfChoicePlease, please, please have meant "blackjack"...
Thank you, Axiom, you are my nemesis. (Edited my originl post, if you don't mind.)
You mean, not counting comps and the like as EV? Which games?Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNaaah, lots of games are beatable.
(Here in my country there is only CSM blackjack, no VP higher than 96.87%, and no comps, so I'm all ears...)
Quote: NareedIf you know, or can consult, a good strategy and have the right VP, then playing with an edge is easy. It helps to play often, too. I recommend starting with the Loose Deuces at the D. At $0.05 per coin the investment is small, and the strategy for deuces is easy to learn.
At that, what is worse:
A) someone with a reasonable AP scheme, like card counting, hole-card spotting, or something similar, who really doesn't do it right(*) or lacks the bankroll to ride out the variance, or
B) someone with a system.
(*) I've heard of people trying to count cards at electronic BJ machines, at tables with continuous shufflers, and I expect very bad rules can render even counting irrelevant.
Learning the strategy for Deuces Wild is pretty simple but the edge is razor thin. Like pennies on your $100. Even the most generous VP pay table + perfect execution of a perfect strategy is good for what? 1% or so?
Counting cards at an electronic BJ machine is hilarious.
Quote: TerribleTomLearning the strategy for Deuces Wild is pretty simple but the edge is razor thin. Like pennies on your $100. Even the most generous VP pay table + perfect execution of a perfect strategy is good for what? 1% or so?
1% is a large edge. I would gladly take it. The problem is that it's for nickels, and I am not interested in 1% of nickels. Give me a 1% edge at a $5 denom or higher game and I will be happy. (1% of $25 per hand x 1000 hands per hour = $250 per hour)
I don't really play any deuces wild games, but I always found their strategy to be harder, not easier, than non-wild-card-games. I find the fact that there are different strategies for different numbers of dealt wilds confusing. I find it much easier to learn the strategy of even a complicated game with no wild cards.
Quote:Counting cards at an electronic BJ machine is hilarious.
Not all of them reshuffle after every hand.
Quote: TerribleTomLearning the strategy for Deuces Wild is pretty simple but the edge is razor thin. Like pennies on your $100. Even the most generous VP pay table + perfect execution of a perfect strategy is good for what? 1% or so?
I don't keep records, so my guesstimates are more guess than estimate. I do keep records, of sorts, of the jackpots (I take pictures of them). In the last two years I've won $825 in jackpots (4 deuces 5 times for $125 each and one royal last year for $200). These are hand pays and they don't affect the balance in the machine (not on this machine). Overall I did better getting back the buy-in last year than this one. Taking all this into account, plus tips for handpays, I'm at least $600 or so ahead on it.
Last year that put me ahead on the trip. This year it went a long way letting me come up about even.
Quote: TerribleTom
I suspect that casinos make a lot of money from fools that think they're better than they are.
reminds me of the time when I was playing blackjack and 2 the two guys next to me we discussing card counting quietly (I guess they figured just saying 'card counting' would trigger security like saying 'bomb' in an airport) - well the dealer caught wind of the discussion and smiled and said 'card counters huh? well glad to meet you guys, some of our best customers are card counters!'
Quote: kubikulannYou mean, not counting comps and the like as EV? Which games?
(Here in my country there is only CSM blackjack, no VP higher than 96.87%, and no comps, so I'm all ears...)
I don't think you will find many people willing to give details on the best current AP opportunities but some people on this forum definitely make a living at them. General themes I am aware of outside of counting:
- Poker
- Hole carding
- Table games exploitable via. collusion
- Exploiting dealer errors
- Exploitable sports bets (for example the Wiz publicized NFL teasers the last couple of years)
- Getting comps of greater value than expected loss
- Exploiting machines in a temporary +EV state such as progressives, bonus rounds, etc.
I am far from expert so there are lots more I haven't a clue about.
Quote: jml24I don't think you will find many people willing to give details on the best current AP opportunities but some people on this forum definitely make a living at them. General themes I am aware of outside of counting:
- Poker
- Hole carding
- Table games exploitable via. collusion
- Exploiting dealer errors
- Exploitable sports bets (for example the Wiz publicized NFL teasers the last couple of years)
- Getting comps of greater value than expected loss
- Exploiting machines in a temporary +EV state such as progressives, bonus rounds, etc.
I am far from expert so there are lots more I haven't a clue about.
Robbing old ladies duh
