ANY LAWYERS HERE RIGHT NOW--NEED SMALL CLAIMS COURT ADVICE AGAINST CASINO
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIs this actually stated in the law? Because I do this all the time and I have never had an issue. High-value tickets are just easier to carry around than cash. If I have $30k on me I'd rather have it in 10 tickets than 300 bills.
I assume you've had no issues because you aren't trying to cash out 30K at once. You obviously are not bringing 30K cash to the casino, putting it into a slot to obtain 10 vouchers, then going to the cashier to obtain cash. Switching from bills to tickets to use as currency is not suspicious by itself. Why you think this is easier, or safer, eludes me. In addition, at some stores, I am asked for ID when I cash out (not win) over $600. Failure to present ID, or otherwise comply with routine procedures, may exacerbate any situation.
Now that I think about it, I am not doing things that would raise any flags for counterfeit money. I actually take very little cash with me (I play on credit)
1. Wearing a disguise to a casino from which you have already been banned seems like asking for trouble. If you're doing this, you might want to reconsider your entire gambling habit. I'm not a fan of the addiction label but in this case I might make an exception.
2. Pumping a bunch of cash into a slot machine and then cashing out without taking a spin? I can see how that might raise red flags for money laundering.
I would be shocked if you were able to collect a cent.
Quote: TerribleTomWhat an odd tale.
1. Wearing a disguise to a casino from which you have already been banned seems like asking for trouble. If you're doing this, you might want to reconsider your entire gambling habit. I'm not a fan of the addiction label but in this case I might make an exception.
2. Pumping a bunch of cash into a slot machine and then cashing out without taking a spin? I can see how that might raise red flags for money laundering.
I would be shocked if you were able to collect a cent.
No one thinks he's a money launderer. If anything, they think he's a secret shopper. He should have just presented his ID, which would have been viewed and recorded by the camera. Probably still what would happen, except it actually is suspicious now. Why the OP thinks acting suspiciously is the best way to avoid further suspicion is a great example of the destructive force of AP paranoia. If he's not an AP, then someone mentioned gambling addiction.
Quote: SonuvabishNo one thinks he's a money launderer. If anything, they think he's a secret shopper. He should have just presented his ID, which would have been viewed and recorded by the camera. Probably still what would happen, except it actually is suspicious now. Why the OP thinks acting suspiciously is the best way to avoid further suspicion is a great example of the destructive force of AP paranoia. If he's not an AP, then someone mentioned gambling addiction.
Oh, I believe his story completely. I don't think he's lying, laundering money, or anything criminal aside from possibly trespassing.
If a casino kicks you out, you play someplace else. If there's only one casino in the area, well, too bad. You got 86'd, for whatever reason, and that's that.
Donning a disguise so you can gamble at a place where you know you're not welcome? Not a good idea.
Somebody walks in with $1600 in cash, pumps it into a slot, cashes out without taking a spin, then attempts to redeem the voucher (that exceeds the $600 IRS 1099 threshold) without ID. I can see how the casino might have all kinds of potential issues with that sequence of events.
Quote: TerribleTomOh, I believe his story completely. I don't think he's lying, laundering money, or anything criminal aside from possibly trespassing.
If a casino kicks you out, you play someplace else. If there's only one casino in the area, well, too bad. You got 86'd, for whatever reason, and that's that.
Donning a disguise so you can gamble at a place where you know you're not welcome? Not a good idea.
Somebody walks in with $1600 in cash, pumps it into a slot, cashes out without taking a spin, then attempts to redeem the voucher (that exceeds the $600 IRS 1099 threshold) without ID. I can see how the casino might have all kinds of potential issues with that sequence of events.
I also believe his story 100%, and that he is in - for lack of a better description - an absolutely annoying $1,600 predicament.
Actually, that IS a good description. Being denied $1,600 is typically:
- five car payments, or;
- a mortgage payment, or;
- a great night on the town,
that NO ONE who had the cash in hand would never want denied to him, simply for doing some "self color ups" on a TITO machine.
And I also wouldn't want to walk into the parking lot of a casino at night with $1,600 in bulging out of my pockets in small bills.
But the circumstances make me shudder: you're in a deliberate disguise at a casino you've been 86-ed from, you ran small tito tickets through a machine to get one big ticket, and with NO action. You can't explain it then. So plan for 45 days.
I would have run the small tickets for the bulky cash, and asked security to walk me to the car, and then gone. Or called a cab, and took a cab to my car safely from the valet. I would have not run a bunch on small tickets through a machine with NO action AND in a disguise, AND in a PLACE I was 86-ed from, thinking: "Wow, THIS'LL make it easier for me!" Nu-uh. You made a mistake, get past it.
Wait the 45 days and cash out at a NYS lottery agent. best shot. This is probably an odds-on best move for you. You have bona-fide NYS Bearer instruments and you can cash them there with no disguise and with ID, no problem. YOU HAVE TO REFUSE TO BE PARANOID, JUST FOR YOUR OWN PEACE OF MIND IN THIS LIFE. Go cash them at 45 days, - acting like you have nothing to apologize for, and knowing you have nothing to apologize for.
If for some reason this doesn't work, don't throw good time and money after bad, as it isn't worth $10,000 of psychic agony for $1,600. Give it the college try at 45 days, and do not worry about the result either way. ACT like it is a $1,600 on the pass on the come roll at a crap table. My advice for peace of mind. If Freakin' idiots are trying to kill you with their stupid casino "TITO policy hiccups", make a plan to cash at an agent at 45 days that'll look clean and withstand scrutiny. This whole thing is turning into an Austin Powers movie sketch.
The only thing you're guilty of is AP bad karma and not thinking it through. Think it through. Cash out at 45 days at an NYS agent, there should be no flag on it.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceCasinos are generally required to report suspicious activity, even if the totals fall below $10,000.
The fact that this was automatically flagged (so that he could not cash it out at an ATM) tells me that this has nothing to do with the cashier; it's the casino's policy.
Our system (which is made by Ballys, I believe) is set at a default to flag this activity when the amount is greater than $1,000. I suspect many systems are the same, and know this very system is everywhere.
The act of "consolidating" isn't illegal, obviously. It just mirrors suspicious behavior. Plenty of people consolidate tickets, or trade a wad of bills for one handy ticket. You can do that all day long, and I've had to chase people doing that all day long. But from a system standpoint, there is no difference between Mr. Moneybags gaining some convenience and Pablo Escobar washing his funds. It all looks the same, so it all gets flagged.
I dunno NYS law. I know on tribal lands, any money lost or won while gambling on an 86 is forfeit if caught. You can leave and accept it, or you can get arrested for trespass. I couldn't tell you if the state follows the same guideline, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does.
That's all I got. Good luck, darkoz, and report back
I can see you don't understand. He is working some angle at THAT casino, this explains the disguise. He cant do this at all the casinos. I'm figuring only after he was done with his angle shooting did he then consolidate his cash making tickets. What I still don't understand, why wear a disguise? It better be very good to go though that crap, if this is good enough to wear a disguise, then he needs to let it go for a measly $1600. Posting this up was probably a bad decision in the first place. Maybe he knows the gig is up and does not care about being able to enter that casino, even in a disguise, and now he wants his 1600 bucks. I would chalk it up to the cost of doing business. If $1600 is significant to him a new gig may be in order.Quote: TerribleTomWhat an odd tale.
1. Wearing a disguise to a casino from which you have already been banned seems like asking for trouble. If you're doing this, you might want to reconsider your entire gambling habit. I'm not a fan of the addiction label but in this case I might make an exception.
2. Pumping a bunch of cash into a slot machine and then cashing out without taking a spin? I can see how that might raise red flags for money laundering.
I would be shocked if you were able to collect a cent.
They'll either pay him or tell him its worthless.
Been my experience in NY.
Quote: AxelWolfI can see you don't understand. He is working some angle at THAT casino, this explains the disguise. He cant do this at all the casinos {snip}
If true, that might make some kind of sense.
Quote: SonuvabishI assume you've had no issues because you aren't trying to cash out 30K at once. You obviously are not bringing 30K cash to the casino, putting it into a slot to obtain 10 vouchers, then going to the cashier to obtain cash. Switching from bills to tickets to use as currency is not suspicious by itself. Why you think this is easier, or safer, eludes me. In addition, at some stores, I am asked for ID when I cash out (not win) over $600. Failure to present ID, or otherwise comply with routine procedures, may exacerbate any situation.
Sonofabish would you mind naming some of the stores that ask for ID on cashouts of 600 ot more.What is the safe amount before they will ask, under 500?
Quote: AxelWolfI can see you don't understand. He is working some angle at THAT casino, this explains the disguise. He cant do this at all the casinos. I'm figuring only after he was done with his angle shooting did he then consolidate his cash making tickets. What I still don't understand, why wear a disguise? It better be very good to go though that crap, if this is good enough to wear a disguise, then he needs to let it go for a measly $1600. Posting this up was probably a bad decision in the first place. Maybe he knows the gig is up and does not care about being able to enter that casino, even in a disguise, and now he wants his 1600 bucks. I would chalk it up to the cost of doing business. If $1600 is significant to him a new gig may be in order.
Most of the professional gamblers I know would be pretty irate about losing $1600 in a non-gambling way.
Sometimes anonymity has a very high value, and sometimes it has a very low value but the cost of employing it is even lower. It's a little different when you are playing machines only, because it probably means you were credit hustling or vulturing. You use the word "angle shooting" as a pejorative but casino advantage play is a lot different than most enterprises - honor and reputation between you and your adversary are commodities at best. There are four distinctions I make in advantage play - completely legal, grey but probably legal, grey and probably illegal, and definitely illegal. I think if you can do something in a casino, and it is legal, and the benefit outweighs the costs, you should do it. Granted, he's breaking the law to be there in the first place, but I don't consider that a factor in the advantage play legality spectrum, only a cost that must be weighed against the benefits.
Quote: HunterhillSonofabish would you mind naming some of the stores that ask for ID on cashouts of 600 ot more.What is the safe amount before they will ask, under 500?
I'd prefer not to specifically mention where I play. This particular store is a small Indian casino. They seem to be satisfied with a player's card. They say "we want to make sure you got comped appropriately" which is BS. They sometimes write down the number in a list with other numbers, or sometimes it's just there for the viewing pleasure of the camera (the list is probably a decoration; the lack of list is probably because there are very few multiple winners to notice a variance in procedure). Not 100% sure what would happen if ID is refused, but they would probably cash $600 anyway...but $500 or $600 is where they start asking...at some point I am sure, they start getting more insistent. I have no incentive to act suspicious unless I am new and have decided to play unrated (pretty rare)--I comply.
Quote: SonuvabishThis is not legal advice:
In a suit, you may very likely fail. They followed standard procedure; not only were you banned, you are potentially (and negligently) allowing the tickets to expire. You could be faced with attacking the reasonableness of their policies or hoping they default. If they default, tell me...then I will randomly sue casinos without justification and get rich quick.
It is not an expiration date of 45 days on the tickets. It is an expiration date of one year.
Prior to 45 days the ticket must be cashed out at the casino, after 45 days they must be validated at an offsite NYS lottery facility.
Quote: AxelWolfDid we forget the guy was wearing a disguise. That's suspicious activity.
Yes, but they didn't know it was a disguise. That was not what made THEM suspicious.
Quote: SonuvabishNo one thinks he's a money launderer. If anything, they think he's a secret shopper. He should have just presented his ID, which would have been viewed and recorded by the camera. Probably still what would happen, except it actually is suspicious now. Why the OP thinks acting suspiciously is the best way to avoid further suspicion is a great example of the destructive force of AP paranoia. If he's not an AP, then someone mentioned gambling addiction.
I am an AP. Stated that in the OP.
My disguise is complete. If I showed my real ID they wouldn't even have believed it was me. They would have accused me of showing someone else's stolen ID. If you've seen the Breaking Vegas episodes where people go in disguise you will understand that mine is ten times better.
Quote: TerribleTomOh, I believe his story completely. I don't think he's lying, laundering money, or anything criminal aside from possibly trespassing.
If a casino kicks you out, you play someplace else. If there's only one casino in the area, well, too bad. You got 86'd, for whatever reason, and that's that.
Donning a disguise so you can gamble at a place where you know you're not welcome? Not a good idea.
Somebody walks in with $1600 in cash, pumps it into a slot, cashes out without taking a spin, then attempts to redeem the voucher (that exceeds the $600 IRS 1099 threshold) without ID. I can see how the casino might have all kinds of potential issues with that sequence of events.
Yeah, this casino is fifteen minutes from my house. The next one is two to three hours away by public transportation.
And yeah, I'm a classic New Yorker--I don't drive.
Quote: PaigowdanI would tell Darkoz to operate on the basis that there no "trespass" flags on his tickets, or associated the tickets, and that the most a clerk at a NYS Lotto office would do is withhold Federal taxes (with valid ID and no disguise), and pay him, minus due taxes. If he doesn't have warrants on him, and isn't in the Interpol data base, I wouldn't sweat it.
They'll either pay him or tell him its worthless.
Been my experience in NY.
No warrants, or Interpol data. Never been arrested(I jumped a subway turnstile twenty years ago and was given a summons).
There also would be no withholding or due taxes. The voucher is for cash--not from a win. I put the money in much the same way you might purchase a money order and want to cash that out. It isn't taxable because you aren't being paid for the money order, it's your money.
Quote: darkozIt is not an expiration date of 45 days on the tickets. It is an expiration date of one year.
Prior to 45 days the ticket must be cashed out at the casino, after 45 days they must be validated at an offsite NYS lottery facility.
Didn't realize they were good after 45 days. What is your concern with cashing them with the lottery facility? If you have none, then I no longer understand the purpose of the thread--you'd want to sue them for making you wait 45 days?
So my current plan is to wait 45 days and hope there Is no block (like "contact casino" message) on the ticket. If they refuse to cash it I will then try small claims court.
I'll let you guys know what happens in a month and a half, I guess.
Quote: darkozI just don't kno what blocks they put on it. They told me only I could cash it (In my disguise) so I figured I might have to take them to court and show my disguise was me.
So my current plan is to wait 45 days and hope there Is no block (like "contact casino" message) on the ticket. If they refuse to cash it I will then try small claims court.
I'll let you guys know what happens in a month and a half, I guess.
I looked it up to verify my 'theory.' This is an internal mechanism to aid in organizational compliance with the law, not an actual law that should concern you. It may or may not be mimicry of a federal guideline. Guidelines are not laws.
If you sell the tickets to someone else, and the money is dirty, you have already laundered it. There is no reason for the casino to require your ID rather than the person attempting to cash them. Therefore, giving them to another person to cash should be OK if you do not wish to do it yourself. My best guess is the cashier doesn't understand the policy. But all organizations do have red tape. I have no knowledge of lottery facilities and their relation to casinos.
You have not acted like a reasonable and prudent person. I would never put cash into a slot machine to consolidate bills: 1) It could malfunction; 2) I could have a medical emergency; 3) a crime may occur; 4) I might be 86ed; 5) Someone may see my cash and follow me home; 6) I have to go to the cashier anyway (most important), 7) Miscellaneous. All of these could leave me inconvenienced or worse. Add that you were in disguise, and it probably would be worse. Money-laundering suspect falls under Misc.
You: "I was wearing a disguise"
Casino/judge: "Why were you wearing a disguise"
You: "Well I'm trespassed/86'd at that casino"
Judge: "You f*****g kidding me? case dismissed"
Perhaps he's an aspiring actor practicing for a role he wants in a casino movie.Quote: RSSo you're in court and......
You: "I was wearing a disguise"
Casino/judge: "Why were you wearing a disguise"
You: "Well I'm trespassed/86'd at that casino"
Judge: "You f*****g kidding me? case dismissed"
Quote: RSSo you're in court and......
You: "I was wearing a disguise"
Casino/judge: "Why were you wearing a disguise"
You: "Well I'm trespassed/86'd at that casino"
Judge: "You f*****g kidding me? case dismissed"
From what I understand of law and no I am not a lawyer, a judge is not supposed to dismiss based on you doing something wrong. He has to follow the guidelines set out by law for proper punishment. Being robbed of your own money for trespassing does not follow.
Although its much more serious, one case I can think of is the Mystical Rape.
Mystical is a rapper spending 7 years behind bars. He discovered his secretary had forged his signature and robbed him of 80 grand.
He confronted her and instead of reporting it to police, he told her he and several of his friends had to gangbang her.
After the gangbang she reported it to police.
She served no time for her theft. Mystical is in prison for 7 years.
By your logic above, the conversation with the judge would have gone
Judge: you let them gangbang you?
Her: Yes
Judge: Why?
Her: Mystical threatened to report how I had robbed him of eighty grand
Judge: Wait a minute. You f****king kidding me? Case dismissed.
The Wizard's case went the same way. Judge ignored the law and ruled for casino. Just a warning...
Quote: FinsRuleI'm not a lawyer, but my wife is. I hear daily complaints from her like this: "The judge didn't follow the law and just did whatever he wanted"
The Wizard's case went the same way. Judge ignored the law and ruled for casino. Just a warning...
Warning taken. I guess I watch the peoples court too much.
Anyway, the worst is I try and don't win. While if I don't try, the worst is I definitely don't get the money.
He / she might imply, if asked why they are involved, that you are "too busy" to deal with it at the moment, or that you are "unavailable."
The attorney should attempt to work out a redemption without you having to go physically into the casino (in disguise, or otherwise).
Yes, it may involve the attorney being required to forward a copy of your ID, and the casino may then learn of your being barred previously, but at least you won't be present in the casino at that time, in disguise, just ripe for being arrested for violation of trespass.
There is no "good" solution to your problem.
Quote: darkozFrom what I understand of law and no I am not a lawyer, a judge is not supposed to dismiss based on you doing something wrong. He has to follow the guidelines set out by law for proper punishment. Being robbed of your own money for trespassing does not follow.
Although its much more serious, one case I can think of is the Mystical Rape.
Mystical is a rapper spending 7 years behind bars. He discovered his secretary had forged his signature and robbed him of 80 grand.
He confronted her and instead of reporting it to police, he told her he and several of his friends had to gangbang her.
After the gangbang she reported it to police.
She served no time for her theft. Mystical is in prison for 7 years.
By your logic above, the conversation with the judge would have gone
Judge: you let them gangbang you?
Her: Yes
Judge: Why?
Her: Mystical threatened to report how I had robbed him of eighty grand
Judge: Wait a minute. You f****king kidding me? Case dismissed.
How disappointing. I read the rest of this post just to learn there really is no such thing as a mystical rape.
Quote: SonuvabishHow disappointing. I read the rest of this post just to learn there really is no such thing as a mystical rape.
http://www.nola.com/music/index.ssf/2010/01/new_orleans_rapper_mystikal_re.html
background on the Mystical rape.
Or are you saying Sonuvabitch you thought there was a type of rape that was mystical? LOL
I think I said his secretary but it was his hairstylist. It had been a few years since I read about it.
Quote: darkozhttp://www.nola.com/music/index.ssf/2010/01/new_orleans_rapper_mystikal_re.html
background on the Mystical rape.
Or are you saying Sonuvabitch you thought there was a type of rape that was mystical? LOL
I think I said his secretary but it was his hairstylist. It had been a few years since I read about it.
That is exactly what I thought after reading part of your post. I also thought it was some sort of proper event, due to its initial capitalization. I felt the anticipation build, and it was a quite a let down. By the way, did you hear they invented hot, cheap robot women who obey your every command?
Said a guy in some movie.
Quote: SonuvabishThat is exactly what I thought after reading part of your post. I also thought it was some sort of proper event, due to its initial capitalization. I felt the anticipation build, and it was a quite a let down. By the way, did you hear they invented hot, cheap robot women who obey your every command?
Said a guy in some movie.
I've already dated some hot cheap robot women who obeyed my every command.
But then it turned into Westworld or something.
