Is there a common definition of an AP?

I originally thought an AP was someone who counted. Or shopped lines to guarantee a win in sports. Or played VP at above 100% factoring everything in.

But sometimes hole carders call themselves APs. For some reason I look at them differently. Not as criminals, but at least as cheaters (not passing moral judgement on you guys).

Is there a standard definition for what is and what is not AP? I imagine some counters or VP players don't want to be mentioned in same breath as hole carders...

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So someone who plays in a way that if discovered would get them banned from the casino is the same as someone who openly plays 101% video poker?

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Hmm... I better watch out next time I sit down and play Pai Gow.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Someone who plays with a legal advantage.

+1

+1 Ibeatyouraces

I'd say someone who is hole carding is more of an AP than a card counter. A lot of card counters are not APs because they half-ass what they're doing.

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I maintain: Someone who plays at a casino or at some game of chance but who does NOT gamble.

So there ;)

Quote: Nareed

I maintain: Someone who plays at a casino or at some game of chance but who does NOT gamble.

So there ;)

Then you are still wrong.

Quote: FinsRule

So someone who plays in a way that if discovered would get them banned from the casino is the same as someone who openly plays 101% video poker?

Yes, of course.

FWIW, some casinos may very well ban you if you only play 101% VP and actually play it that well.

The point here is, the thing that makes you an AP is the fact that you are playing with an advantage. I would not even throw the world "legal" in there -- I consider cheaters to be a subset of APs. You could further divide APs into the set of people who will gain an advantage through legal means, and those who will gain an advantage through any means. You could further subdivide the "legal AP" category into those who would play the game only using information that they are intended to have (eg, card counters) and those who will use additional information that is accidentally disclosed to them (eg, hole carders)

Whether not not the casino would ban you is up to them; it may vary from casino to casino for the exact same type of play, so it's not really useful in forming a definition of AP.

Example: Some casinos tolerate low-level card counters; some do not. The fact that casino A will bar you for it and casino B won't doesn't mean that you are an AP in casino A and not in casino B, or vice versa. It's your play that defines you an an AP or not, not the casino's response.

I don't care for your definition at all, Axiom. Cheaters are cheaters. I don't like it when the casino industry lumps legal AP with cheaters, so I am sure not going to go along with doing it ourselves. Cheaters are cheating. They belong in their own category (and jail cell).

I don't think we need these 'set' and 'subsets'. It's not that hard of a question, lets not make it so.

I go with players that play with an advantage through legal means. And legal means it's not against the law. Non of this....."it's against the casino's law or rules" crap, that Dan tries to sell us. lol

Quote: kewlj

I don't care for your definition at all, Axiom. Cheaters are cheaters. I don't like it when the casino industry lumps legal AP with cheaters, so I am sure not going to go along with doing it ourselves. Cheaters are cheating. They belong in their own category (and jail cell).

Food for thought:
Suppose Phil Ivey ran his edge sorting play in both New Jersey and Nevada. Suppose further that he is sued in both states and found guilty of violating NJ statues but not of violating NV statutes.

Does "AP" depend on where you're playing?

Quote: MathExtremist

Does "AP" depend on where you're playing?

If different states have different LAWS, then yes.

Quote: kewlj

I don't care for your definition at all, Axiom. Cheaters are cheaters. I don't like it when the casino industry lumps legal AP with cheaters, so I am sure not going to go along with doing it ourselves. Cheaters are cheating. They belong in their own category (and jail cell).

I agree with that. But you can't deny that they are also playing with an advantage. Grammatically, it seems that they are advantage players.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I agree with that. But you can't deny that they are also playing with an advantage. Grammatically, it seems that they are advantage players.

That's sort of like saying a treasure hunter could either be beachcombing with a metal detector or picking pockets on the Strip.

Quote: MathExtremist

That's sort of like saying a treasure hunter could either be beachcombing with a metal detector or picking pockets on the Strip.

A cheater is someone who plays with an advantage that is gained illegally.

That makes him an illegal advantage player, which is a type of advantage player.

Of course, that does not equate the two. APs are also a type of player. Players are a type of person. I don't see what the big deal is here.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

A cheater is someone who plays with an advantage that is gained illegally.

That makes him an illegal advantage player, which is a type of advantage player.

Of course, that does not equate the two. APs are also a type of player. Players are a type of person. I don't see what the big deal is here.

Offense by association. Scott Adams, author of Dilbert, identified it in a book many years ago. People get upset when a (bad) subset of something they identify with or associate with gets made fun of. Random example: joke is some fat nuns on a plane saved some people in a crash due to their size. Nuns everywhere got upset, because of the implication that all nuns are fat.

I see a similarity here: APs don't want to be associated with cheaters, so some good APs will object to calling cheating a type of AP.

I prefer not to be called a cheater. I go through painstaking processes to make sure everything I do is on the up and up. Now whether the casino likes it or not is not my problem. If they are giving away 3%+ on a machine and don't fix it who's fault is that?

Quote: djatc

I prefer not to be called a cheater. I go through painstaking processes to make sure everything I do is on the up and up. Now whether the casino likes it or not is not my problem. If they are giving away 3%+ on a machine and don't fix it who's fault is that?

You do understand the distinction between "cheaters are advantage players" and "advantage players are cheaters", right?

All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.