Minimum wage

Quote: djatc

Seems like we are giving out way too much in help if Mission's numbers show the difference between assistance and working a minimum wage job. Most people would just live off the fat if working isn't much improvement of the status quo.

Quote: tringlomane

Right, you have to make a good incentive to work. Either cut everyone off food stamps/welfare entirely and let them and their children sink or swim, or make working a McJob a much improved standard of living than the sucking off the gov't teet life. We definitely can't afford the 2nd, so I'm guessing the first way is the only way to eradicate this issue.

The thing is that we can afford the second and we already do afford the second. The money that welfare recipients and recipients of other entitlements receive is not just miraculously appearing, it comes via taxation. It is the middle and upper class income earners and businesses who are taxed for all of this, so simply paying everyone a livable basic wage while cutting taxes is almost exactly the same thing as the current system, the only real difference being that the would-be welfare recipients have to work some and those who do work now won't have to work quite as hard because the labor will be spread out amongst more people.

The first way could theoretically eradicate the issue, but would never happen, because many people believe as I believe and have some compassion for the children who did not choose to be brought into the world in the first place. Now, you could go the State-Custody route for financially unfit parents, but I can assure you that is far more expensive, which is why the State essentially does everything it can to avid taking kids off their parents in the first place.

you are naive to think that tyaxes would be cut.

Just as with most lotteries that were passed by each state promising to go to education.As it turns out the money did go to education and the money that used to go to education from the general was spent elsewhere.

If my company reduced my wages and benefits so that the part timers could get significantly more money...I would hope to get a tax decrease to help offset it.....but that is just naivte on my part.

the govt is trillions in debt.....it will go to pay off the deficit.

In my world of sanity, a person goes out and gets a job. If its low paying the govt fills in the balance to get you bye with a partial welfare check and food stamps.

In the liberal world, we all start out with the full pot of welfare money and food stamps. and we sit on our ass at home until we feel we found a job worth while that is more than the full pot of money I already am entitled to.

and here is another little observation. I volunteer 2 days each winter to administer flu shots at the local welfare office. The city pays for the vaccine and equipment and i donate my time. It serves the communy and saves the city money on emergency room visits down the line.

Although america is suffering from an epidemic of obesity....you should see the welfare clientelle. Even assuming they all speak cogent english....alot of places wont hire extremely obese people. Obese people have a higher incidence of lower body injury on weight bearing joints. Workers comp high risk. Now employers will not tell someone....hey you are too fat go lose 75 lbs.....not a t all..they will have hired someone who was a "better fit" for the job.

People on welfare are often there for a reason. Many have tried to get a job but cant because they have a poor appearance and a poor verbal presentation. Both of which they have control over, just as they have controlover popping out children, or fathering children. Raising the minimum wage wont help those people at all.
WE have allowed generations of families live on welfare, with no incentive to leave the couch stationed in front of the TV...no incentive to improve themseves physically, or verbaly.....no worries that their handout may run out or be reduced over time....and now we want to send them out to get 15 dollar an hour jobs.
Yeah right.....no one is going to pay them 8 dollars an hour...let alone 15.

In fact if wages go to 15/hr//COMPANIES ARE GOING TO BE HIGHLY SELECTIVE, AND NOT "SETTLE'....they will hire a temp person going to college over an obese person with poor communication skills who has been unemployes for 10 years. They will hire a kid in high school if they are presentable and communicative.
They will hire one of the millions of people who will be pushed down from full time to part time, to lower costs of benefits.

I dont see alot of inexperienced welfare people getting jobs tomororw if the rates went up to 15/hr.
"

I don't remember who but somebody coined the phrase " things that can't be paid, won't be".

So in country here we have unfunded liabilities in the trillions of dollars. The government was borrowing sixty percent of the money it was spending but the producer nations are seeing the value of the loans they gave us in the way of buying our treasury's being rapidly deflated. Now the fed is just printing 85 billion above what it collects in taxes a month to pay its tab. This is a really big problem. The money the gov. is spending is now borrowed from our grandchildren and their children, something will give someplace.

The very wealthy make their money with capitol gains and pay a lower tax on their income than wage earners do. And, as they own a whole lot of the country they make more money from rents. It's the same as it's always been in that regard. I read places like Detroit has ten's of thousands of abandoned homes and of course many are in bad shape. Lots of big city's have these abandoned homes. One of my plans is to have many of these places occupied by those that need housing assistance. Some homes in Detroit can be bought very very cheap. Don't know what the rent allowance for the people on assistance is but it would make sense to me to stop the housing allowance which guessing has got to be 800 +/-?. Landlords will scream but something has to change or the whole house of cards collapses. In a way many landlords are playing the system as well and know the gimmicks to keep a poor family in there rental for years. Just one thought to work with.

Another belief of mine is food assistance which started out to help farmer's and ebt is still in the farm bill. Food stamps supports farm prices. I don't think it's right to be able to just swipe those cards at McD's or taco bell or other fast food places. It just isn't right to me. It would seem those that stay home and aren't hindered by time because of a job have time to cook.

It also bother's me to see able bodied young men doing nothing and now because of equal rights the same goes for young women. I see work everywhere that needs doing. One big one is cleaning up these superfund sites. The huge radioactive piles and chem piles left laying since extraction and terrible pollution leaching into the watersheds forever. Also find out who made the money from that and they can pay at least part of the bill if not all of it. I think we would find some of the same names still doing the same thing.

The government doesn't really owe us permanent jobs but I did like the old CCCP projects, Hoover dam for one. Maybe we need to reinstate the draft and every able bodied person gets a chance to serve the country one way or another.

The country severely needs leadership not platitudes or false promises. We need a Manhatten type project to work on alternative energy. There is a lot of natural gas to be used without fracking and poisoning the water supply and vehicles run great on it. I had one, worked real well and ran clean. Oil seems almost too precious to use for motor fuel. Reforestation is a worthy cause as are hemp farms for all the great products that are made from hemp. Oil, paper, clothing etc.

Let the petty criminals out of jail and quit supporting the private prison industry that has to be guaranteed 80-90% occupancy at 30k per prisoner per year plus percs and dental.

I think it's wrong that employer's especially in the farming industry have to hire illegal workers. I picked fruit and vegetables when I was young, my neighborhood we all did. It's hard but a real income. Even if it's only summer work or if kids quit school there is work and it needs to be pointed out to them that their parents could use the help.

It seems education is more like day care anymore than a place of learning. If k-8 was taught the way it was in the 30's, kids would be ready to either start work or go on to junior college if they had the aptitude. In Germany kids are screened early and start interning while in high school, there isn't some big time period while they try to figure it all out. Germany is highly competitive and has universal health care as well.

Anyway that's a start of my thoughts.

Quote: petroglyph

I don't remember who but somebody coined the phrase " things that can't be paid, won't be".

So in country here we have unfunded liabilities in the trillions of dollars. The government was borrowing sixty percent of the money it was spending but the producer nations are seeing the value of the loans they gave us in the way of buying our treasury's being rapidly deflated. Now the fed is just printing 85 billion above what it collects in taxes a month to pay its tab. This is a really big problem. The money the gov. is spending is now borrowed from our grandchildren and their children, something will give someplace.

The very wealthy make their money with capitol gains and pay a lower tax on their income than wage earners do. And, as they own a whole lot of the country they make more money from rents. It's the same as it's always been in that regard. I read places like Detroit has ten's of thousands of abandoned homes and of course many are in bad shape. Lots of big city's have these abandoned homes. One of my plans is to have many of these places occupied by those that need housing assistance. Some homes in Detroit can be bought very very cheap. Don't know what the rent allowance for the people on assistance is but it would make sense to me to stop the housing allowance which guessing has got to be 800 +/-?. Landlords will scream but something has to change or the whole house of cards collapses. In a way many landlords are playing the system as well and know the gimmicks to keep a poor family in there rental for years. Just one thought to work with.

Another belief of mine is food assistance which started out to help farmer's and ebt is still in the farm bill. Food stamps supports farm prices. I don't think it's right to be able to just swipe those cards at McD's or taco bell or other fast food places. It just isn't right to me. It would seem those that stay home and aren't hindered by time because of a job have time to cook.

It also bother's me to see able bodied young men doing nothing and now because of equal rights the same goes for young women. I see work everywhere that needs doing. One big one is cleaning up these superfund sites. The huge radioactive piles and chem piles left laying since extraction and terrible pollution leaching into the watersheds forever. Also find out who made the money from that and they can pay at least part of the bill if not all of it. I think we would find some of the same names still doing the same thing.

The government doesn't really owe us permanent jobs but I did like the old CCCP projects, Hoover dam for one. Maybe we need to reinstate the draft and every able bodied person gets a chance to serve the country one way or another.

The country severely needs leadership not platitudes or false promises. We need a Manhatten type project to work on alternative energy. There is a lot of natural gas to be used without fracking and poisoning the water supply and vehicles run great on it. I had one, worked real well and ran clean. Oil seems almost too precious to use for motor fuel. Reforestation is a worthy cause as are hemp farms for all the great products that are made from hemp. Oil, paper, clothing etc.

Let the petty criminals out of jail and quit supporting the private prison industry that has to be guaranteed 80-90% occupancy at 30k per prisoner per year plus percs and dental.

I think it's wrong that employer's especially in the farming industry have to hire illegal workers. I picked fruit and vegetables when I was young, my neighborhood we all did. It's hard but a real income. Even if it's only summer work or if kids quit school there is work and it needs to be pointed out to them that there parents could use the help.

It seems education is more like day care anymore than a place of learning. If k-8 was taught the way it was in the 30's, kids would be ready to either start work or go on the junior college if they had the aptitude. In Germany kids are screened early and start interning while in high school, there isn't some big time period while they try to figure it all out. Germany is highly competitive and has universal health care as well.

Anyway that's a start of my thoughts.

the only dissagreement are steriotypical ideas about landlords. I never rented out property, but there are 2 things that lead to derioration in communities that have multidrewwling housing. One is govt mandatred "rent control" that leads to landlords cutting back on amont of money they have to put into their property. And the other is the idea that if you dont pay for somethng with your hard earned money...you dont respect it. So there are people getting free housing, free furniture, free food....and they dont treat those items with the respect they would had they bustred their behind to pay for it themselve. Leading to deterioration.
Some cities have laws that are very very tennant friendly...such as SAN FRANCISCO.
no doubt there are uncaring "slumlords"....but did some of tem start out as that..or did they turn into that when they have tennants tearing up their property, unable to evict them without months and months of legal issues, and govt holding rents down so that is not financially feasible to put alot of mmoney into the building.

Quote: petroglyph

I don't think it's right to be able to just swipe those cards at McD's or taco bell or other fast food places. It just isn't right to me. It would seem those that stay home and aren't hindered by time because of a job have time to cook.

Good news, the government agrees with you! You can't use food stamps at places like McD's. You also can't buy a rotisserie chicken at Walmart with them either. Any hot food is food stamp ineligible.

As a former cashier, I was bad for announcing totals without sales tax when people bought entire orders of eligible items and I saw them swipe an ebt card. I could pinpoint a lot of ebt users too by appearance. They also bought a lot of garbage food. Sad.

Quote: EvenBob

But they wouldn't be able to support a family
even if the min wage went to $25. Everything
else would go up proportionally so it would be
just like making $9 an hour.

Gov't regulation of the marketplace is the only
thing that's 'fair'. That's what they had in the
old Soviet Union and look what happened to them.
Capitalism is the only thing that works on a large
scale, it lets the marketplace balance itself.

A real life example of Bob's theory. Fort McMurray (the oil sand capital) the cashiers at Tim Hortons coffee shops make almost $20/hr. It was totally market driven since the thousands of oil sands employees make $100K to $150K per year with a non skilled person able to reach the $100K point if he can show up for work and pass the drug tests. Are the cashiers at Tim Hortons now making a decent wage? NO The cost of living is ridiculously high.

This is what would happen if you raised the minimum wage to $15. Everyone else in the country would expect a similar bump because their job is worth proportionally more than the lowest paid employees. The cost of living shoots up and everyone is at the same place again except that even more work is sent off shore.

Quote: kenarman

This is what would happen if you raised the minimum wage to $15. Everyone else in the country would expect a similar bump because their job is worth proportionally more than the lowest paid employees. The cost of living shoots up and everyone is at the same place again except that even more work is sent off shore.

Yep, but the libs led by the totally clueless POTUS simply don't understand that.

I don't think the president supports a $15 minimum wage. Neither do I. That would ruin the economy if the increase to minimum wage was brought about without mitigating tax cuts to small businesses and corporations who pay some of the highest corporation taxes in the world.

That said, i support a gradual increase to $12/hour over five years as well as a reduction in the corporate tax rate and an increase in small business tax credits to compensate. I would also create an "under 21" or "under 18" student minimum wage of about $3/hour less so that employers can hire youth who are "just starting out" in an apprenticeship role.

i would then index minimum wage to inflation. I would also adjust the tax code such that low income earners pay a small amount of tax.

That will give the economy time to adjust to the changing labor market.

Quote: chickenman

Yep, but the libs led by the totally clueless POTUS simply don't understand that.

I also disagree. I dont really think there is widespread support among liberals to raise the minimum wage to 15 an hr.
The Potus also hasn't weighed in on this.
I lean left and I dont support this.
Something like gay marraige has widespread support among libs and this just affects a small portion on the population.
Raising min wage to 15 would effect everybody due to what it would do to the economy.

Quote: LarryS

In my world of sanity, a person goes out and gets a job. If its low paying the govt fills in the balance to get you bye with a partial welfare check and food stamps.

That's fine, and that's what happens, by and large, but I can also understand someone who doesn't want to work a full-time job at a NET LOSS!

I mean, seriously, would you work a full-time job at a net loss just out of a sense of pride? You're a better man than I if you would, I'm not going to lie, I wouldn't do it. Why do I want to work forty hours per week for an effective dollar-something an hour not including my gas costs? I'm telling you that many of these people who do work do so at a net loss.

Quote:

In the liberal world, we all start out with the full pot of welfare money and food stamps. and we sit on our ass at home until we feel we found a job worth while that is more than the full pot of money I already am entitled to.

It's not about feeling a job is worthwhile, it's a question of whether or not a person will at least be materially better off with a job. I find it really difficult to blame someone for not working if working would not better their situation, and especially not working if it would make one's situation worse!

Quote:

Although america is suffering from an epidemic of obesity....you should see the welfare clientelle. Even assuming they all speak cogent english....alot of places wont hire extremely obese people. Obese people have a higher incidence of lower body injury on weight bearing joints. Workers comp high risk. Now employers will not tell someone....hey you are too fat go lose 75 lbs.....not a t all..they will have hired someone who was a "better fit" for the job.

This is why most prisoners on most felonies should be executed, and then the Government could give these people highway cleanup jobs. That will get them in shape, too, which will improve their overall health and appearance and perhaps give them the ability to get a better job. The best part is that these jobs would be mandatory, or you'd be cut off from assistance.

Quote: terapined

I also disagree. I dont really think there is widespread support among liberals to raise the minimum wage to 15 an hr.

Yeah, does any liberal on this forum support an immediate jump to $15/hr? I know I sure don't. But I also took basic economics, and the point that ken made is an important one. If you raise everyone's wage to $15/hr, you threaten to jack up prices to go with it.

Quote: Mission146

That's fine, and that's what happens, by and large, but I can also understand someone who doesn't want to work a full-time job at a NET LOSS!

I mean, seriously, would you work a full-time job at a net loss just out of a sense of pride? You're a better man than I if you would, I'm not going to lie, I wouldn't do it. Why do I want to work forty hours per week for an effective dollar-something an hour not including my gas costs? I'm telling you that many of these people who do work do so at a net loss.



It's not about feeling a job is worthwhile, it's a question of whether or not a person will at least be materially better off with a job. I find it really difficult to blame someone for not working if working would not better their situation, and especially not working if it would make one's situation worse!



This is why most prisoners on most felonies should be executed, and then the Government could give these people highway cleanup jobs. That will get them in shape, too, which will improve their overall health and appearance and perhaps give them the ability to get a better job. The best part is that these jobs would be mandatory, or you'd be cut off from assistance.

This is a radio interview that supports your post. The gal is being honest. http://youtu.be/a_r_v9cYBPYhonest.

All you have to know about min wage is, the
gov't doesn't set it and employers don't set
it. The marketplace sets it. Nobody is trying
to screw anybody, as the double digit IQ min
wage earners think. Min wage is what the
marketplace can bear and keep functioning.

The people who know how all this works tell
congress what a proper min wage is, and
congress acts on it. There's no emotion involved,
no hand wringing. It's the science of economics
at work.

I can't see them raising it when under our leader,
President Empty Suit, the average family has gone
from $34,000 a year, to $30,000 a year.

Quote: boymimbo

i would then index minimum wage to inflation. I would also adjust the tax code such that low income earners pay a small amount of tax.

That will give the economy time to adjust to the changing labor market.

This is a recipe for disaster.

My wages are not indexed to inflation, nor are those of anyone I know. Though I concede some contract somewhere may require it the vast majority do not.

No business I know of has revenues indexed for inflation.

When many workers did have a COLA clause it caused major inflation in the 1970s as wage rates and inflation fed off of each other.

If minimum wage workers want a raise they need to learn a skill that will get them paid more. As has been said here earlier, no matter what you set minimum wage at it will always be at the bottom. Hence minimum wage earners and their liberal advocates will always be crying that we need to raise it.

And I restate again, where is it written that every job is supposed to "allow you to raise a family?"

Quote: petroglyph

This is a radio interview that supports your post. The gal is being honest. http://youtu.be/a_r_v9cYBPYhonest.

Thanks, I'll check that out either later tonight or tomorrow.

What an employer pays an employee is a simple function of the marketplace.

Quote: AZDuffman

This is a recipe for disaster.

My wages are not indexed to inflation, nor are those of anyone I know. Though I concede some contract somewhere may require it the vast majority do not.

I believe if you have minimum wage policies, the increases should be exactly the same percentage as the increase that the politicians vote themselves. If you believe you are worth an extra 5% a year... then make sure the whole economy can afford it.

It'll never happen.

Tying it to inflation would be inflationary in itself.

the guy who puts flyers under your windshield wipers should be able to raise a family of 4 doing that full time?
a guy that stands on a corner waving a sign "going out of business sale" should be able to support a family doing that
the mentallyhandicapped person at the front of my store hired during christmas to pass out flyers should be paid enough to support a family of 4

Quote: LarryS

the guy who puts flyers under your windshield wipers should be able to raise a family of 4 doing that full time?
a guy that stands on a corner waving a sign "going out of business sale" should be able to support a family doing that
the mentallyhandicapped person at the front of my store hired during christmas to pass out flyers should be paid enough to support a family of 4

1.) My standard is a family of three.

2.) Most windshield wiper guys are paid under the table, I believe.

3.) The guy waving the, "Going out of business," sign probably won't have that job very long, anyway.

your argumentis flawed if all u can answer regarding the message on the sign.
ok the sign says "eat at joes" the sign says "buy one pzza get one free at joes pizzaria"...where its an ongoing business or one that plans on folding..i would think the law applies to both
So also it would be ok to pay people under the table in order to circumvent the wage law....cool. I didnt know that would be an ammendmentr to the new minimum wage law.

Liberals like to spend other peoples money, and when its pointed out that it wouldnt work...they tell you to break the law .

There are thousands and thousands of mom and pop businesses put there literally clearing 50-100 dollars a day after all expenses.
Buisnesses take time to start up, and other businesses are hanging on by a thread.

And now if a business has 3 parttimers making minimum wage working each day....now out of that 50 -100 dollars that family clears daily after expenses...they will have to pay 50 dollars extra in wages because they dont need a minimum profit...but the workers need a new minimum wage. The assumption that mom and pop business owners are rich and can easily aford 15/hr minimum wage is flawed

A 15 dollar minimum wager will do 4-5 things for sure

1- it will drive thousands of mom and pop shops out of business
2- large companies like walmart will strive to install more self service registers, drop more full time people to pt..and elimate their benefits in so doing
3-more workers now part time w/o benefits will be buying their own health insurance a large expense eliminating any hourly gain they recieved
4-these former full timer now part timers will flood the marker looking for other part time work....leaving nothing for the less experienced welfare people
5- with the marketplace full of new part timers looking for more part time work....they will have a leg up on others wanting to enter the jobforce...and employers now paying 15/hr are going to make sure they only hire people with experience, great communication skills, very presentable. People with little or no job experience, who dont interview well, who have no real resume to present to the interviewer.....will still sit home and collect a check.

And Mission you skip over the resolution that single mothers can pool together and stay under one roof and pay renbt togethger, food expenses together, and even use each other for childcare. Its done all the time by people who work every day and cant meet the high rents of NYC, SF, LA,. You keep talking about working for zero net dollars because of expenses. If there are no jobs where you live...move to where the jobs are. If u need child care, find a roomate who is available to proivde it while u provide something the roomate needs.

In the bravew new world of 15/hr it seems that there really wont be alot of 15/hr jobs available to people who have been sitting on thir asses for the last few years

Quote: LarryS

The assumption that mom and pop business owners are rich and can easily aford 15/hr minimum wage is flawed

+1

This is one point (out of many) that liberals can't grasp, for whatever reason. When talking about "business", everyone who supports a $15/hr minimum wage talks about BIG businesses like Walmart, McDonald's, etc. It's almost as if the whole concept of SMALL business is lost on them.

Even when I talk to my liberal friends, I can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that most small businesses can't afford a ridiculous increase in the minimum wage. These libs think small business owners are swimming in piles of cash, and that just ain't true at all. Not to mention businesses just starting out. New business owners have it hard enough as it is, let alone thrusting a ridiculous $15/hr minimum wage on them.

Quote: LarryS

your argumentis flawed if all u can answer regarding the message on the sign.
ok the sign says "eat at joes" the sign says "buy one pzza get one free at joes pizzaria"...where its an ongoing business or one that plans on folding..i would think the law applies to both
So also it would be ok to pay people under the table in order to circumvent the wage law....cool. I didnt know that would be an ammendmentr to the new minimum wage law.

I kind of meant it as a joke about the store closing.

I'm not saying it would be legal to pay people under the table, or that anyone should, just that it happens. I have a tendency to consider things that happen and would presumably continue to happen.

Quote:

There are thousands and thousands of mom and pop businesses put there literally clearing 50-100 dollars a day after all expenses.
Buisnesses take time to start up, and other businesses are hanging on by a thread.

If they are unable to profit, they themselves are free to find alternative employment.

Quote:

And now if a business has 3 parttimers making minimum wage working each day....now out of that 50 -100 dollars that family clears daily after expenses...they will have to pay 50 dollars extra in wages because they dont need a minimum profit...but the workers need a new minimum wage. The assumption that mom and pop business owners are rich and can easily aford 15/hr minimum wage is flawed

I'm sure the same arguments were made when minimum wage was scheduled to go up from $5.15/hour, some businesses will succeed under the new law and some will fail. Some Mom and Pops will put more hours in themselves, if necessary, and will have less workers. Some can afford it and some can't, I never implied that all business owners are rich.

Quote:

1- it will drive thousands of mom and pop shops out of business

Thousands? Let's see some data. Especially if it's combined with tax breaks.

Quote:

2- large companies like walmart will strive to install more self service registers, drop more full time people to pt..and elimate their benefits in so doing

That's possible, but such chains are installing self-service registers already. I don't necessarily think they are only doing it because of saving money on employees, I think they may be doing it also because it theoretically saves time for the customer. When they work right, which is almost never.

Quote:

3-more workers now part time w/o benefits will be buying their own health insurance a large expense eliminating any hourly gain they received

I'm a bit confused by this, it seems that you are saying that they will have to go out and buy health insurance rather than have it provided to them by the State, which comes from tax dollars anyway, and that is somehow a negative? I see that as a positive, with co-pays and things of that nature, you won't have people running to the emergency room every time they cough.

Quote:

4-these former full timer now part timers will flood the marker looking for other part time work....leaving nothing for the less experienced welfare people

My system resolves that issue pretty well. Under the current system, that may be true in many cases, but Capitalism is a system of Economics founded on competition, anyway, so I don't see why you'd be overly concerned by this. It's not like welfare benefits would be increased, because they wouldn't.

Quote:

5- with the marketplace full of new part timers looking for more part time work....they will have a leg up on others wanting to enter the jobforce...and employers now paying 15/hr are going to make sure they only hire people with experience, great communication skills, very presentable. People with little or no job experience, who dont interview well, who have no real resume to present to the interviewer.....will still sit home and collect a check.

That will be the case in some situations, hopefully moving to areas that have a labor shortage will seem more attractive, though, and people will work harder to find jobs, even if they are minimum wage jobs.

Quote:

And Mission you skip over the resolution that single mothers can pool together and stay under one roof and pay renbt togethger, food expenses together, and even use each other for childcare. Its done all the time by people who work every day and cant meet the high rents of NYC, SF, LA,. You keep talking about working for zero net dollars because of expenses. If there are no jobs where you live...move to where the jobs are. If u need child care, find a roomate who is available to proivde it while u provide something the roomate needs.

Asked and answered, I've already addressed that, and I told you in another post that I had already addressed that when you brought it up:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/16014-minimum-wage/14/#post296262

The short answer is: They won't live any better AND will lose their privacy, in many cases. I don't know what sort of world this is where you expect people to make decisions that actually make their lives worse, which is why many welfare recipients would sooner do that than go out and make minimum wage in the first place.

Like I said, there are very few liberals who support an immediate jump to $15/hr, but I think, as I argued earlier, that $7.25 is too little to live on.

But increases with tax credits to small businesses and reducting the corporate tax rates would put more money in people's hands and allow companies to continue to be equally as profitable.

And give me a break with the big corporations like WMT - they already hire the minimum amount of employees to accomplish what they need to do. Major restaurant chains are starting now to eliminate wait staff in favor of tabletop menus (aka, the i-Pad) to order food and drinks. If they could figure out how to cook without cooks without decreasing quality, they'd do that too.

And finally, give me a break about what the market will bear. There are places in the United States where labor shortages allow people to be hired at above minimum wage, but for the vast majority of places, a lower minimum wage would be preferred. That is precisely why there are minimum wage laws. Dumb argument.

Quote: boymimbo

Major restaurant chains are starting now to eliminate wait staff in favor of tabletop menus (aka, the i-Pad) to order food and drinks. If they could figure out how to cook without cooks without decreasing quality, they'd do that too.

I think you're getting the point now. Raising the minimum wage will only accelerate the move to making everything automated. Ever see those self-checkout stations at Walmart, where they need only 1 employee to watch over 4 machines? Go ahead & raise the minimum wage...you'll see a hell of a lot more of those.

Quote: Beethoven9th

+1

This is one point (out of many) that liberals can't grasp, for whatever reason. When talking about "business", everyone who supports a $15/hr minimum wage talks about BIG businesses like Walmart, McDonald's, etc. It's almost as if the whole concept of SMALL business is lost on them.

How did I fail to grasp that? For one thing, LarryS' recent post is the first time that issue has been brought up. Secondly, I recognize that there are Mom and Pop businesses out there that cannot afford to pay that and will either have to put in more hours themselves, while reducing staff, or there are even some that will close.

Quote:

Even when I talk to my liberal friends, I can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that most small businesses can't afford a ridiculous increase in the minimum wage. These libs think small business owners are swimming in piles of cash, and that just ain't true at all. Not to mention businesses just starting out. New business owners have it hard enough as it is, let alone thrusting a ridiculous $15/hr minimum wage on them.

I don't assume that anyone is swimming in anything, some small businesses are barely hanging on, I acknowledge that. In any kind of market, however, there will be changing circumstances and some businesses are healthy enough to survive changing circumstances and some are not. I imagine a few places may have closed when the minimum wage took that big jump from $5.15/hour, but that's how it goes sometimes.

If we don't need to enact legislation, in the Conservative opinion, to allow individual human beings to be able to sustain a basic existence on having a full-time job, then we certainly don't need to actively avoid Legislation that will put a few small businesses out of business. Same thing with new business owners.

It's kind of like, on the one hand, you are saying that individual people don't deserve to be reasonably assured a basic and comfortable existence, but business owners who don't have the capital to handle a changing market or get their businesses off the ground do deserve certain protections to ensure that they have their right to be in business.

I mean, if we're not going to look at basic existence as an inalienable right, then how the Hell is business ownership an inalienable right? You talk about bad decision-making, starting a new business when you don't have the capital to weather marketplace swings, that's a bad decision.

Quote: Beethoven9th

I think you're getting the point now. Raising the minimum wage will only accelerate the move to making everything automated. Ever see those self-checkout stations at Walmart, where they need only 1 employee to watch over 4 machines? Go ahead & raise the minimum wage...you'll see a hell of a lot more of those.

Not necessarily, one would presume that the companies that manufacture these automated things will also raise their prices when the minimum wage goes up knowing that they are going to get more interested buyers. The main thing these companies are going to focus on is profit margins, not volume sales, they'll be able to make more money by selling fewer units at a higher price meaning the same general balance of worker/automation should be maintained.

Quote: Beethoven9th

I think you're getting the point now. Raising the minimum wage will only accelerate the move to making everything automated. Ever see those self-checkout stations at Walmart, where they need only 1 employee to watch over 4 machines? Go ahead & raise the minimum wage...you'll see a hell of a lot more of those.

I was in a walmart this afternoon, 8 registers for self check out...one employee in that kiosk area overseeing it.
I must have used that self checkout at least 50 times already.

And as far as walmart is concerned the self checkout doesnt go out on dissability for 6 months, does not require lunch or bathroom breaks, does not file for unemployment when it is replaced.

yes this is the wave of the future but 15/hr will accelerate it.

At 15 dollars an hour the expectations of people will increase. If you think people are stressed now...just wait. Thr proverbial assembly line will be sped up.
People will be asked to do more with less. Meaning that if there was a person next to you ringing up a line all day...maybe there will only be a person next to you ringing up a line for 4 hours....and in your 8 hour shift you will just have to move your ass a little faster.

Employers just dont bunp up a salary significantly without significantly increased expectations of productivity.

Only the best of the best will be employed,and automation will be accelerated to eliminate as many workers as possible.

this is great news for sharp above average workers...but for average and below average workers....get ready for some lean times.

for 15/hr employers are not going to put up with any crap

Quote: Mission146

How did I fail to grasp that? For one thing, LarryS' recent post is the first time that issue has been brought up

No, no...wasn't talking about you in particular. Just about liberals in general, including people I know in real life. I apologize, didn't mean to give the impression that I was singling you out.

Quote: Mission146

It's kind of like, on the one hand, you are saying that individual people don't deserve to be reasonably assured a basic and comfortable existence, but business owners who don't have the capital to handle a changing market or get their businesses off the ground do deserve certain protections to ensure that they have their right to be in business.

I do agree that business owners should be able to survive whatever the market throws at them, but the minimum wage is being thrown at them by the government, not the market.

Quote: Mission146

Not necessarily, one would presume that the companies that manufacture these automated things will also raise their prices when the minimum wage goes up knowing that they are going to get more interested buyers. The main thing these companies are going to focus on is profit margins, not volume sales, they'll be able to make more money by selling fewer units at a higher price meaning the same general balance of worker/automation should be maintained.

yeah, i am sure

maybe someone should tell apple that they should raise the prices of their iphones cause alot of people want them

more and more doctors are becoming proficient in lasik surgery, but the equipment keeps going down over the years

Self checkoput is the exact same technology that cashiers use. Its the exact sme register and scanner, except with a slightly different program the prompts the customer a little more Just a couple of extra screens are added asking to pay, and asking to start the process. Its really not a big deal.

there wont be a an increase of registers..its just that they will be for different uses. Instead of 10 cashiers available standing at 10 registers..there might be 2 cashiers standing and 8 self service registers.

Quote: LarryS

I was in a walmart this afternoon, 8 registers for self check out...one employee in that kiosk area overseeing it.
I must have used that self checkout at least 50 times already.

And as far as walmart is concerned the self checkout doesnt go out on dissability for 6 months, does not require lunch or bathroom breaks, does not file for unemployment when it is replaced.

yes this is the wave of the future but 15/hr will accelerate it.

At 15 dollars an hour the expectations of people will increase. If you think people are stressed now...just wait. Thr proverbial assembly line will be sped up.
People will be asked to do more with less. Meaning that if there was a person next to you ringing up a line all day...maybe there will only be a person next to you ringing up a line for 4 hours....and in your 8 hour shift you will just have to move your ass a little faster.

Employers just dont bunp up a salary significantly without significantly increased expectations of productivity.

Only the best of the best will be employed,and automation will be accelerated to eliminate as many workers as possible.

this is great news for sharp above average workers...but for average and below average workers....get ready for some lean times.

for 15/hr employers are not going to put up with any crap

+1 again


If the minimum wage was raised to $15/hr, another thing we could possibly see is an increase in the number of companies offering unpaid internships. And if that did happen, I can guarantee people would be lining up in order to get their "foot in the door" so they can someday snag one of those sweet $15/hr jobs.

...and crappy, unskilled workers will be right back where they started. (No, actually they'd be worse off since they wouldn't be getting paid...lol)

Quote: Beethoven9th

No, no...wasn't talking about you in particular. Just about liberals in general, including people I know in real life. I apologize, didn't mean to give the impression that I was singling you out.

My mistake, sorry about that.

Quote:

I do agree that business owners should be able to survive whatever the market throws at them, but the minimum wage is being thrown at them by the government, not the market.

It is the market insofar as it is the labor market. Minimum wage is the labor market, at least, it is the base of the labor market and the minimum expectation for an unskilled worker. It's true that the Government would be initiating the change, but it is a market change.

Quote: Mission146

It's true that the Government would be initiating the change...

Ah, that's the key word for me: government. I want the government initiating as few things as possible.

Quote: LarryS

yeah, i am sure

maybe someone should tell apple that they should raise the prices of their iphones cause alot of people want them

more and more doctors are becoming proficient in lasik surgery, but the equipment keeps going down over the years

More and more doctors are becoming proficient in Lasik surgery, so it makes sense that more companies will exist to manufacture and sell Lasik equipment, due to the increased competition, the prices come down.

As far as Apple goes, how do you think their profits would be if the cost of an IPhone was $100,000? Not only do you have competition in that market, but you have the fact that people will only pay so much for a particular item. I don't think anyone would pay $100,000 for an IPhone, but if Apple gave them away for free with no strings attached, I believe every single person would want one.

In my opinion, Apple being the large company that it is, I would assume that they have Economists doing price and demand forecasting work in an effort to price their IPhone at a level intended to maximize profits, not necessarily gross revenue or volume, but profits. It also explains why such items usually start out high and then you see price reductions when the items are no longer new, you have certain markets that will pay a premium to get an item when it first comes out, and then they work on penetrating the market that demands a lower price for such an item when they feel they have maximized sales from the segment of the market that will pay top dollar. The Economic concepts for pricing are pretty rudimentary, Optimal Pricing for a specific good or service can occasionally be a difficult task, but the concepts themselves are simple.

My point is that the cost of those units will initially be higher until there are more manufacturers of the items which will increase competition necessitating a price reduction.

Some random responses to different posts above.

I think it's Foxcon that manufacture's the iphones in China. The working conditions are so bad that they installed nets around the building so no more employees could jump to their death. An iphone costs less than ten dollars to manufacture.

On those self serve checkout kiosks, I won't use them. I had difficulty when trying to weigh some items that wouldn't report to the till and got the stink eye from the one employee trying to help four customers out at the same time. I also think those self serve things is where a lot of the shoplifting goes out the door. So they can lay off checkers and hire more security, make WM more like trying to get on a plane. Coupons or sales don't seem to work very efficiently with those machines either.

When small business is talked about above, I appreciate the sympathy. I had several small business's. The last construction company I had was in the 80's and we were small business. At the time unless it's changed the gov. description of small was doing less than 14 million dollars a year worth of business. I must have been micro business, I never came close to that amount. A micro business get's shoved out of the way by small business by volume and every other method of reducing competition.

One thing I definitely learned there is I never want another employee at any price. If we are talking about let's say a convenience store maybe financed by a foreign government which Korea was doing for a while with 7-11 stores. If a family is going through as much heartache as a small business is for 50-100 dollars per day, putting them out of business is doing them a favor, a big one. If we are talking say a husband wife team like we use occasionally with the cash flow they have I think they will like the aca. Same thing for a family.

Sometimes I hear some politico or someone bragging about manufacturing coming back while patting themselves profusely. What's in the fine print is that manufacturing coming back is robotosized. When it left the country financed by our tax dollars it involved human labor, when it comes back its all automated.
I had a kid working at McD's for a while and he said the only sandwich they sold that took a human was the big mack, not sure with their newer menu. When it is all automated I see it like when you get stuck talking to a robot on the phone and none of the choices is what I need and even pounding the zero won't get me to a human.

Just starving the poor will not fix the problems and I believe will greatly increase crime. I always thought many people that were potential criminals chose to work when they could finance their way of life because it was preferable to jail. When the incentive isn't there, bad people will choose the easiest targets. Whether it be easier people to rob or those out working their lucrative positions. So again hire more security, more alarms, jails ad infinitum,

Quote: thecesspit

I believe if you have minimum wage policies, the increases should be exactly the same percentage as the increase that the politicians vote themselves.

Sorry, I fail to see what one has to do with the other. Your premise is that politicians are the ones paying the workers. Instead this punishes businesses that are creating the jobs in the first place.

Quote: LarryS

yeah, i am sure

maybe someone should tell apple that they should raise the prices of their iphones cause alot of people want them

more and more doctors are becoming proficient in lasik surgery, but the equipment keeps going down over the years

Self checkoput is the exact same technology that cashiers use. Its the exact sme register and scanner, except with a slightly different program the prompts the customer a little more Just a couple of extra screens are added asking to pay, and asking to start the process. Its really not a big deal.

there wont be a an increase of registers..its just that they will be for different uses. Instead of 10 cashiers available standing at 10 registers..there might be 2 cashiers standing and 8 self service registers.

Disagree. Self-checkout is much slower because you haven't memorized where the UPC is on every device, and you don't know the codes of every produce or bakery item that you have. Self-checkout also encourages theft as there is no mechanism for one cashier to watch 8 POS points. And if you run into a jam with self-checkout, you have to wait for the single lady to fix you. In short, self-checkout is much slower than manned checkout, and WAY slower if they have extra staff bagging, and at a snail's pace if you scan an item wrong and need cashier intervention.

All of that translates into customers going elsewhere and increased surveillance or theft costs. Case in point: a new grocery store opened around the corner from me. 9 check out lines, no self-checkout. Minimum wage $10.25/hr. Store have already figured out that customers prefer human checkouts and will only use the self-checkouts when the number of items is low -- in otherwords, your low-value customers.

We don't know if the Applebys experiment will work with the auto-order kiosks. My question is "do we leave the tip with the i-Pad?"

Quote: boymimbo

Disagree. Self-checkout is much slower because you haven't memorized where the UPC is on every device, and you don't know the codes of every produce or bakery item that you have. Self-checkout also encourages theft as there is no mechanism for one cashier to watch 8 POS points. And if you run into a jam with self-checkout, you have to wait for the single lady to fix you. In short, self-checkout is much slower than manned checkout, and WAY slower if they have extra staff bagging, and at a snail's pace if you scan an item wrong and need cashier intervention.

All of that translates into customers going elsewhere and increased surveillance or theft costs. Case in point: a new grocery store opened around the corner from me. 9 check out lines, no self-checkout. Minimum wage $10.25/hr. Store have already figured out that customers prefer human checkouts and will only use the self-checkouts when the number of items is low -- in otherwords, your low-value customers.

We don't know if the Applebys experiment will work with the auto-order kiosks. My question is "do we leave the tip with the i-Pad?"

This entire post proves that liberals will never "get it" when it comes to increasing the minimum wage. I mean seriously...your argument is now centered on paper jams at the self-checkout stations? *facepalm*

No. *buttfinger*

I am saying that a $1 - $3/hour differential in the wage of the cashier is not related to the expansion self-checkout technology. Self-checkout technology has been around for years and rather than seeing it expand, new stores are opening without them because the customer does not prefer the technology. And if the minimum wage is the same everywhere, everyone is in the same boat. Customers would rather spend the extra $1 - $2 on groceries than use self-checkout/self-bagging, so the choice on a minimum wage increase won't be to lay off staff, but will be to raise prices.

Note that Applebys went to the technology change without any wage pressure or a threat of a minimum wage increase.

Quote: boymimbo

new stores are opening without them because the customer does not prefer the technology

Um...new stores haven't seen an increase in the minimum wage yet. Duh!

Quote: boymimbo

No. *buttfinger*

I am saying that a $1 - $3/hour differential in the wage of the cashier is not related to the expansion self-checkout technology. Self-checkout technology has been around for years and rather than seeing it expand, new stores are opening without them because the customer does not prefer the technology. And if the minimum wage is the same everywhere, everyone is in the same boat. Customers would rather spend the extra $1 - $2 on groceries than use self-checkout/self-bagging, so the choice on a minimum wage increase won't be to lay off staff, but will be to raise prices.

Note that Applebys went to the technology change without any wage pressure or a threat of a minimum wage increase.

People that dont prefer it..dont know how to use it. I didnt "prefer" it either, until I got up the guts to try it. Its like ATMS...when they first came out ppeople didnt want to give a machine control over their money. Was scared the wrong amount would come out and how do you complain to a nameless faceless machine. Wondered if the correct records were being kept as far a debioting your account correctly. As people used it more, they started to "prefer" it. The convenience, the speed, the accuracy.

Same with self checkout. Over the last 5 years it has only expanded. I preferit and I dont care about prices. I can well aford to pay a few dollars more for my groceries....but I prefered the convenience of checking out my 30 items this afternoon, avoiding lines, and avoiding the useless question "did u find everything you were looking for?"

40 years ago, most people didn't prefer to pump their own gas. But now everyone does....and they even process their own credicard payment,
Hell 30-40 years ago people "prefered" to have someone available to help them when they walk into a store. A sales person at their back and call. Now people walk into big box stores and know they are on their own....and people now "prefer" that.


There will always be a need for some cashiers, just as there will always be a need for some bank tellers.

No one is saying all cashier jobs will be replaced if the minimum wage is almost doubled.

not at all, there will be push to get customers accoustomed to self checkout. Possibly more people manning the area to give one on one instruction.
there will be a reduction of full time workers, and the attached benefits.
Benefits will be reduced for full time workers allowed to keep the full time status...but they will always be working with a ax hanging over their heads if future cuts are needed

Unions will ask that their workers that for example were making 3 dollars over minimum wage before, still continue to make 3 dollars over minimum wage

costs/prices will spiral upwards, the number of full time workers and their benefitswill spiral downwards

and we will get what we got with obamacare...a new complex system where everything was not thought our and suffering occurs

Quote: boymimbo

Disagree. Self-checkout is much slower because you haven't memorized where the UPC is on every device, and you don't know the codes of every produce or bakery item that you have. Self-checkout also encourages theft as there is no mechanism for one cashier to watch 8 POS points. And if you run into a jam with self-checkout, you have to wait for the single lady to fix you. In short, self-checkout is much slower than manned checkout, and WAY slower if they have extra staff bagging, and at a snail's pace if you scan an item wrong and need cashier intervention.

All of that translates into customers going elsewhere and increased surveillance or theft costs. Case in point: a new grocery store opened around the corner from me. 9 check out lines, no self-checkout. Minimum wage $10.25/hr. Store have already figured out that customers prefer human checkouts and will only use the self-checkouts when the number of items is low -- in otherwords, your low-value customers.

We don't know if the Applebys experiment will work with the auto-order kiosks. My question is "do we leave the tip with the i-Pad?"

self checkout can be a little slower if you choose it over a totally free cashier.

you know a cashier just standing at her register waiving to you to come to her.

that happens alot.....at the walmart.......in your dreams

And as far as theft...i would imagine they have figured out all that and still find it to be a positive financial move. i MEAN IN MY WALMART..why have 8 registers for self checkout if no one like sit. When I am there its pretty filled. Its not like I am the only one using it. And this time of year if I do food shopping and I am over 20 items...I am waiting on line with all the christmas shoppers will filled carts.m15-20 min waits.

I was in the hOME Depot today. 2 cashiers, and 2 self serve.

I read an article where Target is testing a program that lets you wal the sotre and scan barcodes with your smart phone and pay without a visit to a register.

+1 to each of the last 2 posts

I can't believe the arguments that libs are now resorting to. I mean, c'mon. Do you libs really believe that businesses aren't smart enough to find ways to fight theft and paper jams??? That deserves another *facepalm*

Quote: Beethoven9th

+1 to each of the last 2 posts

I'm liberal, and yeah...I use self checkout a lot. Hell I was a former cashier...I obviously can do it myself, it really isn't that hard. But boyimbo is correct, "shrinkage" does increase with self-checkout, but to the amount the company saves by using it? No way.

I do think self checkout is optimal with "express" lines though.

Quote: tringlomane

"shrinkage"

Haha...this word never fails to make me chuckle thanks to Seinfeld. :D

Quote: Beethoven9th

Haha...this word never fails to make me chuckle thanks to Seinfeld. :D

I didn't realize this was a Seinfeld joke...I never got into that show. And after google...it's not that kind of "shrinkage", dammit!

I got more familiar with that word from my mother while working at Marshalls. Shoplifting was a constant battle at her store. I never saw anyone try at the supermarket. Observation is not one of my top skills though...:-\ The worst I remember is a bagger getting suspended for tackling one in the parking lot; he was a high school football player. The person he did tackle WAS a shoplifter though.

Quote: Beethoven9th

+1 to each of the last 2 posts

I can't believe the arguments that libs are now resorting to. I mean, c'mon. Do you libs really believe that businesses aren't smart enough to find ways to fight theft and paper jams??? That deserves another *facepalm*

Did u see the argument that someone said that if a business goes under due to the financial strain of 15/hr min wage....the govt is doing "mom and pop" a favor by pushing htem out of business

Forget about the fact that most businesses take years tobecome profitable. So mom and pop get through the lean years living off saved rainey day funds, and the business after 3 years is making a small profit. Now the govt comes along and tells them their wage expenseis going to double overnight...wiping out most of their well deserved small profit that they worked hard to build.

And this lib says that if they go out of business..they deserve it....the govt was doing them a favor.

And I am still waiting for Mission to give a real answer to....why is it that yuppies(or whatever the equivalent is today) in big cities, take on one or 2 roommates in order to afford their rents and living expenses while they work at their jobs. Yes their privacy is shot. Yes it might put a damper on entertaining the opposite sex, yes if there is one tv you may not always get to view what you like. All the inconveneience is there...but for some reason these folks can figuure out how to stretch their dollar,

But people making 7.50 minimum wage cant be expected to combine resources?

People on welfare cant be expected to combine resources?

But hard working people do it all the time





Instead the govt has to hand out welfare checks and declare a doubling of the min wage

Personally, I have never heard of a "yuppie" needing a roommate, but yeah, having roommates is a good way to cut down cost. But I hate to say it, but poorer people are generally also less trustworthy roommates. On my private poker/mostly male BS forum, I had to listen to a member that I have met in real life renting out his former house to his sister (at a discount of course). After 4 years, it was bedbug infested... :-\ People are not going to be chomping at the bit for a minimum wage roommate unless they are naive.

Quote: LarryS

Did u see the argument that someone said that if a business goes under due to the financial strain of 15/hr min wage....the govt is doing "mom and pop" a favor by pushing htem out of business

Forget about the fact that most businesses take years tobecome profitable. So mom and pop get through the lean years living off saved rainey day funds, and the business after 3 years is making a small profit. Now the govt comes along and tells them their wage expenseis going to double overnight...wiping out most of their well deserved small profit that they worked hard to build.

And this lib says that if they go out of business..they deserve it....the govt was doing them a favor.

And I am still waiting for Mission to give a real answer to....why is it that yuppies(or whatever the equivalent is today) in big cities, take on one or 2 roommates in order to afford their rents and living expenses while they work at their jobs. Yes their privacy is shot. Yes it might put a damper on entertaining the opposite sex, yes if there is one tv you may not always get to view what you like. All the inconveneience is there...but for some reason these folks can figuure out how to stretch their dollar,

But people making 7.50 minimum wage cant be expected to combine resources?

People on welfare cant be expected to combine resources?

But hard working people do it all the time





Instead the govt has to hand out welfare checks and declare a doubling of the min wage

LarryS, who are you referring to that said the government pushing the wage to 15 and putting mom and pop out of business deserves it? Point that quote out so I know you are at least reading what your commenting about.

And also who are you calling a lib?

Quote: boymimbo

Disagree. Self-checkout is much slower because you haven't memorized where the UPC is on every device, and you don't know the codes of every produce or bakery item that you have. Self-checkout also encourages theft as there is no mechanism for one cashier to watch 8 POS points. And if you run into a jam with self-checkout, you have to wait for the single lady to fix you. In short, self-checkout is much slower than manned checkout, and WAY slower if they have extra staff bagging, and at a snail's pace if you scan an item wrong and need cashier intervention.

Not sure where you have been shopping. I was at WMT late last night but the place was still busy. The self-checkout is "Wendy's Style" with one line feeding about 8 registers. I was upset at how long the line looked but realized it would be faster with this approach. Well it was, I estimate I was in line less than 5 minutes and any other cashier would have been three or more times as long.

As to theft the self-checkouts are pretty good. There is a scale under the bagging area and if you put the item in without scanning it the unit tells you to rescan and eventually puts out an alert. Of course since when someone steals we all pay so to combat this we could have the government force us to buy "checkout insurance" so we have a cashier on duty at all times, or pay a fine if we do not want this service.

But back to the point, I almost always prefer the empty self-checkout line to a cashier with a line. Exceptions are at Lowes/THD when I use gift cards or have anything complex because their self-checkout is not ready for prime time. People seem to self-segregate at checkouts. People who use the self-units tend to know how to work them fast while those who can't stay away.

I would be in favor of a no-food-stamps at the self-units if they do not do that already to prevent fraud.

My dad refuses to use a self-checkout being the union guy who does not want to take away someone's job. Others are surely like him. But the sharps use them because they are mostly faster. Raise the minimum wage and we will keep getting more of them.