Minimum wage

Quote: LarryS

If she is making 8.50 and hour, according to your 26k support a family welfare plan..i would have to raise her hourly rate 4 extra dollars. So its a bad deal for her because she wants the full time hours, and its a bad deal for the business who has to train a new person and often live through ineffciencies and customer services issues. A workforce full of part time people working 28 hours a week is not great for an exconomy. Especially if those 28 hours limits their ability to find another part time job. If a 8.50 job becomes a 12.50/hr job just by adding a few extra hours to a persons schedule is a form of welfare that a business has to pay in your 26k minimum wage world of supporting a family.

I'm trying to have two different conversations with you at once, but they're getting mixed together. I'm just talking about the general standpoint that some people have that menial workers aren't worth more than minimum wage, but they are, because you save the training costs by keeping an existing employee.

A workforce full of full-time employment is not ideal, either, in a situation where unemployment exists. We're talking about her being full-time as though that actually solves anything without a wage increase, all that means is that she makes money that someone else is not making. You have her at full-time at $8.50 and hour, but then that's a part-time job that someone else doesn't have. That's why the only reasonable solution is livable wages.

Your last sentence does nothing to address the fact that the business is paying the welfare, anyway, in the form of taxation. With the livable wages, even with operational inefficiency due to a surplus of employees, you're at least getting some value out of the labor as opposed to welfare via taxation. The only thing that the welfare system accomplishes is that the people who do work must work harder, and for less, in order to support the people who don't work at all, or who work less.

Cutting out the middleman (i.e. the Government) has value in and of itself because you at least don't have the Administration expense that goes to distributing the tax revenues to begin with. Again, the business gets more direct value for the money that will be extracted from them one way or another AND the people who actually do work get to make more money and have a better quality of life.

Quote:

you are resigned to the fact that large sectors of the population are behaving irresopnsibly even with higher govt education. So therefore someone has to pay for it all. Why couldnt welfare be like unemployment....where all able bodied people get a fund to use in a lifetime, or a 10 year period. If they use it up in 3 years....too bad...try to get help from friends or relatives. This way we dont get generations of families living off welfare. They cant use the excuse that its better to be on welfare than get a minimum wage job.....if the minimum wage job helps stop the meter from running on their diminishing fund of benefits. Or as years go by the benefits start becoing less and less....so that they feel the squeeze and go get a job.(rahter than just cutting them off cold turkey at some point). I would think it would be the individuals responsibility to deal withthese issues and not he responsibility of my business.

We've not really discussed the particulars of my system. There is no ten years unemployment, and there is no one day unemployment. If an individual is unemployed, then that individual will receive the necessary benefits until a job is found for them. The individual will be free to look for a job for himself/herself, but the State will also be proactive in creating jobs and looking for jobs to place people in. If the person refuses a job found for them by the State or is terminated in a way that is indisputably due to the individual's negligence, that's it, they're cut off. No welfare, nothing, they are done.

One way of creating nice State jobs is jobs in the field of highway and city cleanup and maintenance. Right now, you have prison work crews that do a good portion of that, but you're going to get rid of that by making 90% of felonies punishable by capital punishment, especially those with indisputable physical evidence. Armed robbery? We don't need armed robbery, we don't need armed robbers, you die. It's that simple. We are over-populated and limited in resources, so why are we wasting food and electric and healthcare resources on criminals? Not to mention the manpower, in terms of prison staff, to keep these P.O.S's in order?

So, 90%+ of the prisoners are now dead, which saves a crapload of resources currently devoted to prison jobs, has a net positive effect on employment, and creates decent paying State jobs with State benefits. You almost have a livable wage just on what it costs, per day, to house a prisoner!

Anyway, forced employment is a big part of my system so people can't just do nothing and reap the benefits.

Now, minimum wage versus welfare is not an, "Excuse," for some people. Let's take a look at my one sister-in-law, two kids, she got a job working 35 hours per week at $8.00/hour. I sat down and crunched the numbers and with the cut to her food stamps, cash benefits 100% gone and energy assistance cuts plus the gas costs to get to and from work, I've determined that she is better off to the tune of about $1.10/hour. That's primarily because her mother, my wife and myself facilitate her having a job by watching her kids for free and picking them up from school when she is at work. If she had to pay anything in childcare costs, she'd be working at a net loss, so it's not really an excuse.

Can you imagine that? Working 1,820 hours a year for a difference of less than +$2,000? No vacation days, no benefits, nothing. I'm not going to lie to you, I wouldn't do it, there's absolutely no way I would work 1,820/year that I did not work before to be better off by less than $2,000 annually. $7.70 extra cash for every seven hour shift? Nearly losing money on the day if you decide you want to buy lunch? Screw that, not doing it, don't blame anyone who doesn't.

Quote: SOOPOO

As far as Mission's feeling that pro life conservatives are self contradictory, I feel your analysis is faulty. First of all, I am very much pro choice. But if you believe that abortion is murder, then your FIRST thought is that it should be illegal. The financial considerations would be secondary. As an example, if we just burned down all the mental institutions and prisons with the people inside, think how much money society would save? Would you say that a conservative would be contradictory to not be for that plan, too?

Here's the thing about that, there is a moral question about whether or not someone who has an abortion is committing murder, while burning down a mental institution is murder by nearly any standard, so that's kind of a strawman. The other question isn't so much about the abortion, just the self-contradictory nature of wanting the child to live, but not necessarily being concerned with whether or not the child starves to death. Now, there are charity organizations, food pantries and community outreach...as with any other demographic...I imagine that some choose to help and some do not. I'm all about person-to-person direct charity as opposed to Government hand-outs, as long as the direct charity is enough to get it done...it's more efficient than the Government middleman, that's for sure.

The problem is that the level of charity we have is insufficient just to help the people who slip through the welfare cracks, not to mention if it was intended to replace welfare. Again, it's also true that not all Conservatives do, or necessarily can, engage in charitable acts and giving. So, again, you want the child to live, rather to be born, but if the child starves to death after that, so be it.

Or, do they want the children to become wards of the State? Because that's even more expensive for the Government because there's all kinds of Administration involved with that. That's why foster parents are paid to take in wards of the State, it's cheaper for the Government to pay other people to do it! Now what you're looking at is the costs of welfare, or the costs to go through the legal remedy of taking the kid away from an unfit parent and to take care of the kid thereafter.

However, some Conservatives still believe abortion should be illegal. It's stupid, and I can't take them seriously, I'm sorry.

Quote:

As someone who has worked in excess of 40 hours a week for the last 30 years, I am not convinced that the living wage as it is called, should be figured using 40 hours as the multiplier. I work with a bunch of nurses at my hospital (they make around $60k per year), most of whom either will do extra fill in shifts for sick calls. Others have second one or two day a week part time shifts at other institutions. Another waits tables one night a week. Another bartends. Tell one of these ladies that the wage for someone who did not get the training or education to advance should be propped up artificially at HER cost, because whatever employer has to pay the higher costs will pass it on to HER.

That's exactly the way of it, SOOPOO, the employer will f*** her to compensate for it, but the Government will f*** the employer in exchange, via taxation, and it's just a stupid and needlessly inefficient system. Pay everyone a livable wage, pay it directly, the end. Also, I never said anything about anyone needing to make 60K per year as a base salary, or even half of that.

Quote: GWAE

Can you imagine the prices if they did make $15 an hour. I went to McDs for lunch last week. I bought a bigmac value meal and made it large. It was over $7. Even though the price is listed on the board I was shocked when she gave me my total. It is almost cheaper for the 3 of us to go to Applebees and do the 2 for $20

Most sit-down restaurants can be cheaper, or as cheap, as McDonald's, not to mention the comparative health value. Mexican and Italian restaurants are two examples of places where you can get a ton of value for a relatively healthy meal.

Quote: GWAE

Can you imagine the prices if they did make $15 an hour. I went to McDs for lunch last week. I bought a bigmac value meal and made it large. It was over $7. Even though the price is listed on the board I was shocked when she gave me my total. It is almost cheaper for the 3 of us to go to Applebees and do the 2 for $20

I laugh at these people who think they can just walk up off the street and snag an entry-level job requiring no skills that pays $15/hr.

America used to be about working hard and enjoying the fruits of your labor. Now it's about letting others work hard and enjoying the fruits of THEIR labor!

well Mission we look at reality a little differently. You have a grand schme in a grand new world where capital criminals are put to death, and people are found jobs by the govt.
Aint gonna happen in the next few lifetimes

But what CAN happen is to clamp down on waste within the reality we live in, as out taxes are already high. Instead of the govt clamping down on wasting dollars in food stamps, welfare, and healthcare fraud.......they keep raising taxes or in the case of obama care make policy holders pay for the others.

In your world buisness pays for supporting families by paying much higher wages when someone goes from parttime to full time. I can see the problem in this. Lets say there is a large company with many levels of pay rates. They can only afford to pay a certain amount for payroll. All of a sudden overnight the minimum wage for full time is 26k per year. Ok fine....the people making 56k per year can now make 53k, the people mking 45k can now make 42k, the people making 100k can now make 93k. As a company we can cut out paid holidays from 8 to 6. We no longer pay time and a half for working holidays(already done in my company 3 years ago)
So the company doesnt pay to support other peoples families....the other workers chip in and pay for it. through lower wages, lower or eliminated bonuses, less holiday pay. Death in the family? No problem ...you can take off...but we the company aint payin. Personal days? Sick days?Can decrease or go away.

So if we are all willingto take a pay cut, benerfit cut, bonus elimination, and shift those payroill dollars to the minimum wage full timers....then I guess your system will work. bUSINESS DOESNT PAY FOR IT AT ALL....the workers do as payroll dollars shift from one group of people to another, and benefits that we are used to are dissolved.

Quote: SOOPOO

You CAN regulate higher wages to unskilled workers. It is called the minimum wage. In my neck of the woods (suburban Buffalo) market forces ARE controlling low end wages. As it should be. Local fast food restaurants have big signs up looking for help paying ABOVE minimum wage. My guess is that they are doing it to attract workers to work for them, not out of any social good concept to pay them a wage they can raise a family on.

If minimum wage workers are not producing enough value to cover their costs they will not be hired. Raise the minimum wage and fewer low end workers get hired.

But still the big question is when on earth did we get this idea that everyone is supposed to be paid some kind of "living wage?" Most minimum wage workers are teenagers or some other group living with someone else and working for some extra money for themselves.

Put another way, you do not have the "right" to some kind of "living wage." You get paid based on what your labor produces. If your labor does not produce enough then you need to lower your living expenses by rooming with someone else, etc. Or better yet and longer term you build skills so your labor produces more value and thus you get paid more.

There is complaining that people on welfare are milking the system and that's true, there are plenty of people on welfare who are living the just above the barebones when it comes to lifestyle. Making $7.25/hr isn't much of an incentive to get these people off welfare and into jobs, whereas $10 - $11 - $12 might.

I beleive that minimum wage should be enough to support oneself with food, an apartment, public transportation, essentially, the student lifestyle. How much in dollars is that? Well, think about $500 for housing, $300 for food, and $100 for public transit, and you're already up to $900/month. Add to that utilities, a cell phone, and maybe $100 / month for entertainment and you're up to about $1,200 a month.

40 hours a week at $7.25 / hour doesn't cover it. 40 hours a week at $10/hour does. We call minimum wage jobs "entry level", but given that skilled jobs have been on the decrease for a long time, "entry level" is really sometimes the only choice people have.

America isn't going to let these people die, and it is far better to have these people working, buying, and being productive at $10 - $12 / hour rather than sitting on their duff taking food stamps and making money in the underground economy and not contibuting at all.

Quote: boymimbo

There is complaining that people on welfare are milking the system and that's true, there are plenty of people on welfare who are living the just above the barebones when it comes to lifestyle. Making $7.25/hr isn't much of an incentive to get these people off welfare and into jobs, whereas $10 - $11 - $12 might.

I beleive that minimum wage should be enough to support oneself with food, an apartment, public transportation, essentially, the student lifestyle. How much in dollars is that? Well, think about $500 for housing, $300 for food, and $100 for public transit, and you're already up to $900/month. Add to that utilities, a cell phone, and maybe $100 / month for entertainment and you're up to about $1,200 a month.

40 hours a week at $7.25 / hour doesn't cover it. 40 hours a week at $10/hour does. We call minimum wage jobs "entry level", but given that skilled jobs have been on the decrease for a long time, "entry level" is really sometimes the only choice people have.

America isn't going to let these people die, and it is far better to have these people working, buying, and being productive at $10 - $12 / hour rather than sitting on their duff taking food stamps and making money in the underground economy and not contibuting at all.

Since unlike the govt, companies cant print money, someone has to pay for the increase in hourly rates. So is it ok for your wife to come home and tell you that her hourly rate has been reduced from 24.00/hr to 20.00 per hour and the 8 paid holidays are being reduced to 3 paid holidays, and the yearly bonus is eliminated....so that all the minimum wage people can get a major rate increase....you are a better man than I. Companies that sell products will be hesitant to raise prices in fear that the competition will not raise prices by handling it internally as I have layed out. Either way someone is going to pay for it. Most likely the worker making over minimum wage will pay for it. If people want to make that sacrifice its fine with me....I am near the end of my working days...I can help support people like you suggest for a couple of years.

Quote: LarryS

So is it ok for your wife to come home and tell you that her hourly rate has been reduced from 24.00/hr to 20.00 per hour and the 8 paid holidays are being reduced to 3 paid holidays, and the yearly bonus is eliminated

That's fine with me. I'm wife free.

Quote: LarryS

If people want to make that sacrifice its fine with me....I am near the end of my working days...I can help support people like you suggest for a couple of years.

Awesome, we are in agreement then.

Quote: boymimbo

I beleive that minimum wage should be enough to support oneself with food, an apartment, public transportation

Sorry, but businesses don't exist to ensure that people don't go hungry. Sounds harsh, but that's reality. Look, I'd love to feed every hungry person in the world, but that just ain't gonna happen. If you want everybody to have food, shelter, clothing, and an apartment, then YOU pay for it.

Quote: LarryS

Since unlike the govt, companies cant print money, someone has to pay for the increase in hourly rates. So is it ok for your wife to come home and tell you that her hourly rate has been reduced from 24.00/hr to 20.00 per hour and the 8 paid holidays are being reduced to 3 paid holidays, and the yearly bonus is eliminated....so that all the minimum wage people can get a major rate increase....you are a better man than I. Companies that sell products will be hesitant to raise prices in fear that the competition will not raise prices by handling it internally as I have layed out. Either way someone is going to pay for it. Most likely the worker making over minimum wage will pay for it. If people want to make that sacrifice its fine with me....I am near the end of my working days...I can help support people like you suggest for a couple of years.

makes sense to me

Mission,

Three great posts in a row. I knew I liked you!

Thanks!

Quote: Beethoven9th

Sorry, but businesses don't exist to ensure that people don't go hungry. Sounds harsh, but that's reality. Look, I'd love to feed every hungry person in the world, but that just ain't gonna happen. If you want everybody to have food, shelter, clothing, and an apartment, then YOU pay for it.

Increase minimum wage...everyone is for it. Health care for everyone?...everyone is for it.......oh wait someone has to pay for it and its me......hold on lets rethink it.

liberal want these minimum wage urners to make alot more so the can "support a family",...wait till it occurs and their bonuses go away, their sick days go away, and their salaries go down 5 percent....see how touchy feely they are about humanity and fairness.

Look at the people complaining about losing their doctor and paying more under the new healthcare system....just the price we all pay for being all inclusive, understanding, and caring. A price no one figured on.

Quote: LarryS

Increase minimum wage...everyone is for it. Health care for everyone?...everyone is for it.......oh wait someone has to pay for it and its me......hold on lets rethink it.

Okay

Quote: LarryS

liberal want these minimum wage urners to make alot more so the can "support a family",...wait till it occurs and their bonuses go away, their sick days go away, and their salaries go down 5 percent....see how touchy feely they are about humanity and fairness.

I'm still on board. $15 per hour it is then.

Quote: LarryS

Look at the people complaining about losing their doctor and paying more under the new healthcare system

look and then what, laugh? because that's not happening. Many more people are now getting access to private health insurance that they couldn't get or afford before.

Quote: LarryS

....just the price we all pay for being all inclusive, understanding, and caring. A price no one figured on.

It's been figured and for all the riches it brings to America, the price is really tiny.

There were some protesters at my McDonald's Wednesday at around noon. q13fox.com article and video.

I saw this on a comment board yesterday and had a laugh.

"Did you hear about the Obama Happy meal? You may order anything you wish, and the guy behind you is required to pay for it."

Milton Friedman was awesome.

Employers must discriminate against people with low skills.

Also, a higher minimum wage lowers the cost of being a racist business owner.

The minimum wage is one of the most effective tools in the arsenal of racists

The correct minimum wage is 0. My guess is that everyone here that works for a paycheck, at one time, was paid near or below (unpaid internship) the minimum wage. Somewhere along the line, you used those skills to get a higher paying, higher skilled, job. It worked for me, why can't it work for these lazy d-bags that want everything given to them. Oh, right, never mind, answered my own question.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Walter Williams is a genius. (Thomas Sowell is another)

Quote: Beethoven9th

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Walter Williams is a genius. (Thomas Sowell is another)

Friedman's "Free to Choose" series (10 1-hour documentaries, made in the 80's) includes both of them, at one point or another, as people on "his side". I think Vol. 8 is the one with Williams discussing the minimum wage, with his giant afro.

Hey, let's not confuse the issue with facts. America is #1 . Down with unions.

Quote: rxwine

That chart is worthless without the rest of the story.

What is the standard of living in these countries?

Does someone who makes minimum wage actually pay tax in France?

How much earned income credit does a minimum wage worker get in Japan?

Slap a little EIC on a baby momma with 2 kids who is so inept to only work minimum wage jobs and spread her legs and you can add $7k+ to her income. Assuming dumb-dumb can wake up and say "Welcome to Costco, I love you" for 8 hours less smoke breaks, and the fact that $$ is not taxable, she is getting the financial equivalent of close to $13 for a non-babymaking responsible single adult.

Give me a chart with facts, and I'll consider it when deciding if I think there should BE a minimum wage, much less an increase.

Quote: Maverick17

"Welcome to Costco, I love you"

Electrolytes, it's what plants crave.

Quote: rxwine

What a fascinating chart. Thanks rxwine.
I had no idea of the spread on minimum wage in developed countrys.
That's fascinating that Australia pays the highest minimum wage.
Very interesting, I had no idea.
Just shows what an incredibly progressive and great country Australia is.
Besides, big fan of Midnight Oil, great band.

Quote: terapined[/q

Just shows what an incredibly progressive and great country Australia is.

It shows that the population of Australia is so
small they can do whatever they like. 22mil
people, that's nothing. Texas has 26min, Fl
has 19mil.

That's an awesome chart. Maybe all libs will move to Australia now.

Quote: Beethoven9th

That's an awesome chart. Maybe all libs will move to Australia now.

It is an awesome chart. Australia is a great country. Except for the treatment of the Aborigines, I cant think of a single criticism of the country.
Love outback, Croc Dundee rocks, loved Men at Work. Great Olympics at Sydney. Love the Opera house. Its a great country.
I simply find it fascinating what they have for a minimum wage.
Here's the point that may blow your mind, I am against raising the minimum wage to say 15 and hour here in this country.

I am an independent, I look at each issue independently.
To follow a conservative or liberal playbook is absurd.

If generations keep declining, it's only going to get worse. The government is responsible to their part of what goes on around here. The other parts include thee individual, and family.

Protest for higher minimum wage and get paid $50.

Link

Quote: terapined

loved Men at Work.

OK, there's something we can agree on. ;)

Quote: terapined

Here's the point that may blow your mind, I am against raising the minimum wage to say 15 and hour here in this country.

Whoa, that one does blow me away. For a second though, I thought you were gonna add at the end, "...I support raising it to $40/hr!" lol

Quote: EvenBob

It shows that the population of Australia is so
small they can do whatever they like. 22mil
people, that's nothing. Texas has 26min, Fl
has 19mil.

How come none of the individual States do it, then?

Quote: Mission146

How come none of the individual States do it, then?

They do. Lots of states have min wage higher
than the gov't min wage. Why don't they make
it $15? Because they aren't morons.

Quote: EvenBob

They do. Lots of states have min wage higher
than the gov't min wage. Why don't they make
it $15? Because they aren't morons.

Unsure if this has already been mentioned, but the city of Seatac, WA (south of Seattle) passed a law to raise minimum wage to $15/hour. It is being called a "testing ground."

Quote: rxwine

Liberals talk a good game about fairness and people should be entitled to support a family with minimum wage. That all sounds great.

All companies will do is shift the payroll dollars from higher earning people to the minimum wage people. Companies set aside a certain amount for payroll, and increase it or decrease it based on increases and decreases in business.

However if an artificial force(the us govt an non economic force) forces them to significantly increase hourly minimum wage, then people who are making more than minimum wage will get reduction in salary, reduction in bonus, reduction in payed sick days, reduction or elimination of paid holidays. The money has to come from somewhere.

I have a hard time believing that people are willing to volunteer to reduce their living wage, reduce their ability to save for retirement, reduce their ability to have a college fund for children, reduce their ability to afford a better healthcare plan,reduce or limit the types of vacations they can go on. ...all so kids working part time to get through a semester of college, or stay at home moms that want to get extra money for christmas. or a high school drop outs who can only scan items for a living....can get a large increase in pay for the jobs they do.....all in the name of "everyone who works needs to be able to support a family with those wages".

As it stands now a man and a woman working for minimum wage full time can indeed "support their family".....THAT IS THE FAMILY THEY CAN SUPPORT WITH THAT MONEY. When they start making more money they can have children and support THAT famly.

its all topsy turvey in this world...LIBERALS think people can irresponsibly have children first before they have a job that can support them...and its business that must bail them out with an inflated minimum wage

There are consequences to irresponsible behavior...and its the people who exhibit the irresponsible behavior that suffer the consequences.....not the business which will pass those financial consequences on to the more responsible people to pay thru reduced wages and benefits

The average cost of living in Australia is much higher than the US. That ties into another thing, $10 an hour in rural Alabama can get you further than $20 an hour in NYC. Why should it be managed at the federal level? The state level can get much more precise.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Unsure if this has already been mentioned, but the city of Seatac, WA (south of Seattle) passed a law to raise minimum wage to $15/hour. It is being called a "testing ground."

SeaTac is a bedroom community of Seattle and has 26,000
people. The $15 is only for a small number of workers in
the local service industry. Not McD's or Wendy's.

"The SeaTac initiative will raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour for hospitality and transportation workers in and near Seattle-Tacoma International Airport."

Perhaps places like McDonalds should start adding tip jars next to their registers. You see them more places than I ever remember anyway.

It does seem a little out of proportion when so much mileage is given to discussing whether or not those working in poverty should be legislated a larger share of the American pie. Nothing said about the trillions given to the megabanks and the billions given to the already obscenely rich.

I've read different estimates all the way from 8 trillion to 17 trillion given to the tbtf banks since '08. It's been said that if 13 trillion had been given to mortgage holders instead of banks that would have paid off every mortgage in the country. Meanwhile, JPMorgan, BOA, HSBC, even foreign owned banks with American offices are handed billions from the American taxpayer, while being caught weekly for fraud and theft and drug money laundering. None of the perps goes to jail and the fines paid are miniscule as compared to the theft and considered just a cost of business and it's tax deductible for them

It's just crazy to me, that the uber rich receive billions from the taxpayer's and here we are discussing whether or not it's fair to make the winners give the poor a raise?

And now back to the regular programming.


http://www.truthdig.com/images/hdr_avbooth_28_text.gif

Quote: petroglyph

It does seem a little out of proportion when so much mileage is given to discussing whether or not those working in poverty should be legislated a larger share of the American pie. Nothing said about the trillions given to the megabanks and the billions given to the already obscenely rich.

I've read different estimates all the way from 8 trillion to 17 trillion given to the tbtf banks since '08. It's been said that if 13 trillion had been given to mortgage holders instead of banks that would have paid off every mortgage in the country. Meanwhile, JPMorgan, BOA, HSBC, even foreign owned banks with American offices are handed billions from the American taxpayer, while being caught weekly for fraud and theft and drug money laundering. None of the perps goes to jail and the fines paid are miniscule as compared to the theft and considered just a cost of business and it's tax deductible for them

It's just crazy to me, that the uber rich receive billions from the taxpayer's and here we are discussing whether or not it's fair to make the winners give the poor a raise?

And now back to the regular programming.


http://www.truthdig.com/images/hdr_avbooth_28_text.gif

+1

Quote: petroglyph

here we are discussing whether or not it's fair to make the winners give the poor a raise?

Fair? What the heck does fair have to do with
it. The guy who owns a McD's isn't rich.
That's right, most fast food places are privately
owned small businesses. They pay what they
can afford to pay. This is unskilled labor, why
should they be given skilled labor wages? Why
should a HS dropout make the same as a college
grad? That's what all this comes down to. Getting
something for nothing, the new national mindset.

Quote: petroglyph

It does seem a little out of proportion when so much mileage is given to discussing whether or not those working in poverty should be legislated a larger share of the American pie. Nothing said about the trillions given to the megabanks and the billions given to the already obscenely rich.

I've read different estimates all the way from 8 trillion to 17 trillion given to the tbtf banks since '08. It's been said that if 13 trillion had been given to mortgage holders instead of banks that would have paid off every mortgage in the country. Meanwhile, JPMorgan, BOA, HSBC, even foreign owned banks with American offices are handed billions from the American taxpayer, while being caught weekly for fraud and theft and drug money laundering. None of the perps goes to jail and the fines paid are miniscule as compared to the theft and considered just a cost of business and it's tax deductible for them

It's just crazy to me, that the uber rich receive billions from the taxpayer's and here we are discussing whether or not it's fair to make the winners give the poor a raise?

And now back to the regular programming.


http://www.truthdig.com/images/hdr_avbooth_28_text.gif

If I had a business employing 4 full timers and 6 part timers all making minimum wage.....if the govt dictated i pay 4 dollars an hour more for minimum wage....the first thing I would do is to reduce my full timers to part time, and hire more part timers, thereby allowing me to stop paying health benefits, vacation pay, paid holidays, and paid sick days. And if the full timers complain I just tell them that if the banks get bailed out. and car companies get baliled out....your govt feels that you should be making extra per hour...so feel better about the "bailouts"....you are getting yourpiece of the pie now.. Now run along and look for another part time job without benefits to help get your 40 hours that u are used to...oh you cant find one because everyone else is doing the same thing I am doing?......hmmmmm thank your govt.

People forget that most "winners" weren't always winners. Most of them failed many, many times before finally striking gold. The difference is that they kept going after failing while the others simply quit (and that's if they even started at all).

Quote: EvenBob

Fair? What the heck does fair have to do with
it. The guy who owns a McD's isn't rich.
That's right, most fast food places are privately
owned small businesses. They pay what they
can afford to pay. This is unskilled labor, why
should they be given skilled labor wages? Why
should a HS dropout make the same as a college
grad? That's what all this comes down to. Getting
something for nothing, the new national mindset.

correct. The market dictates what people make, not the govt. When I moved to california in late 1990's before the dotcom bubble burst, it was hard to find people to even work at mcdonalds. In the bay area some mcdonalds were paying 10 /hr...in 1998/99. That is huge. But supply/demand dictated that that was going to be the wage. Now 15 years later thay are back to minimum wage in this economy. Again the market dictated the pay rate.
Mu wife is a cpa and is making 25 percent less than she was 7 years ago because the glut of cpa's have people willing to work for less. People can cry "its not fair...the banks were bailed out so why cant my wife make at the same as she made 7 years ago"....screw that...the market decides the wage rates...and as i showed with mcdonalds...the rates dont always go down.

its very convenient to keep the "bailing out of the banks card" in ones back pocket and pull that one out anytime one wants some policy enacted.

you know...if we can bail out the banks....why cant thr govt give high school drop outs some money
if we bail out the banks...why cant the govt order redistribution of weath in healthcare and wages
one has nothing to do with the other.
why not pull out the "if they can put a man on the moon".....why cant the gove build housing for minimum wage earners

Quote: LarryS

Since unlike the govt, companies cant print money, someone has to pay for the increase in hourly rates. So is it ok for your wife to come home and tell you that her hourly rate has been reduced from 24.00/hr to 20.00 per hour and the 8 paid holidays are being reduced to 3 paid holidays, and the yearly bonus is eliminated....so that all the minimum wage people can get a major rate increase....you are a better man than I. Companies that sell products will be hesitant to raise prices in fear that the competition will not raise prices by handling it internally as I have layed out. Either way someone is going to pay for it. Most likely the worker making over minimum wage will pay for it. If people want to make that sacrifice its fine with me....I am near the end of my working days...I can help support people like you suggest for a couple of years.

Everyone thinks that raising minimum wage comes at a penalty to other employees, but that's an executive decision. Here's an idea. Take the $2/hour or $4k/year the 4-5k employees in a 30k employee pool that it would affect and take $16-$20 million out of executive pay. Everyone ignores the fact that the rich keep getting richer, without impunity while the middle and lower class keep getting screwed.

The government can also play a role and they do. They raise the minimum wage, and at the same time they reduce the corporate tax rate and offer incentives to small businesses to offset the increase. Pretty straight forward.

Quote: EvenBob

SeaTac is a bedroom community of Seattle and has 26,000
people. The $15 is only for a small number of workers in
the local service industry. Not McD's or Wendy's.

"The SeaTac initiative will raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour for hospitality and transportation workers in and near Seattle-Tacoma International Airport."

Whoopsadoodle, thanks for calling me out. I thought it applied to all businesses in Seatac, which includes a couple fast food restaurants and even a card room (Silver Dollar Seatac).

Quote: LarryS

If I had a business employing 4 full timers and 6 part timers all making minimum wage.....if the govt dictated i pay 4 dollars an hour more for minimum wage....the first thing I would do is to reduce my full timers to part time, and hire more part timers, thereby allowing me to stop paying health benefits, vacation pay, paid holidays, and paid sick days. And if the full timers complain I just tell them that if the banks get bailed out. and car companies get baliled out....your govt feels that you should be making extra per hour...so feel better about the "bailouts"....you are getting yourpiece of the pie now.. Now run along and look for another part time job without benefits to help get your 40 hours that u are used to...oh you cant find one because everyone else is doing the same thing I am doing?......hmmmmm thank your govt.

Good thing you don't have a business where all of your employees were making minimum wage, because you'd probably have a huge problem with loyalty and retention, which Walmart does. And every business on the street is also paying minimum wage, and needs the labor to do the job, so prices go up or your margins go down, or both.

Ontario's minimum wage is $10.25/hr and we have plenty of employment opportunities. Everyone is on the same playing field, so prices are more expensive, which means that rather than spending $7.50 on a #1 at McDonalds or $8 on a Whopper meal or $1.60 on a Taco, you go to FreshCo and make yourself a salad instead or cook at home, heaven forbid. That's a good thing.

A higher minimum wage also means welfare rolls are smaller as more people are willing to make the jump from making $800/month sitting on their ass to $1,600/month by working.

The government is going to take care of its poor and sick, period. They are not going to let people die (though some cities have no problem letting people live in the street or in their jails, a lot of people). So you offer the basics in welfare and make the minimum wage high enough so that a jump is worth it to the individual.

Quote: LarryS

Quote: rxwine

I have a hard time believing that people are willing to volunteer to reduce their living wage, reduce their ability to save for retirement, reduce their ability to have a college fund for children, reduce their ability to afford a better healthcare plan,reduce or limit the types of vacations they can go on. ...all so kids working part time to get through a semester of college, or stay at home moms that want to get extra money for christmas. or a high school drop outs who can only scan items for a living....can get a large increase in pay for the jobs they do.....all in the name of "everyone who works needs to be able to support a family with those wages".

I support such an initiative, of course. My pay at work hasn't kept up with inflation I already donate about $1/hr of my pay to charity. Paying someone $13 - $14 hour rather than $10.25 means that my daughter will have more money for college meaning that I'm giving her less. Paying someone $13 - $14/hour means that they will be paying taxes and buying something. Paying someone $13-$14 / hour might allow a single parent to pay for meaningful daycare rather than electing to stay home on welfare, or it might allow a two-parent family to allow the other parent to do part time work only so that they can stay home with their children. Whatever happened to trickle-down economics?

I make plenty of money, and I consider myself lucky to do so. I believe that people who work 40 hours a week should have enough to support themselves and live on their own. Of course it doesn't mean that that wage should support a family of 3. I will contend that $14k/year isn't enough to support oneself.

Quote: boymimbo

Good thing you don't have a business where all of your employees were making minimum wage, because you'd probably have a huge problem with loyalty and retention, which Walmart does.

Also, If you take away the protectionist labor laws including minimum wage, I see no reason why union strength wouldn't rise proportionally over time. People should know what history we went through already with that.

Just because people should do certain behavior doesn't mean they will Conservatives may have to embrace a nanny state of their own, making people do what they want with laws, penalties and mandates so people quit, improve their skills instead of unionizing and protesting job conditions and wages.

Quote: EvenBob

They do. Lots of states have min wage higher
than the gov't min wage. Why don't they make
it $15? Because they aren't morons.

The entire country of Australia is comprised of morons, then?