Zimmerman Trial
Then put every judge, lawyer and politician in jail for life.
Quote: onenickelmiracleIf you have to use a gun against someone without one just maim them in the knee. If you have to shoot to kill, you should still have the advantage.
Then put every judge, lawyer and politician in jail for life.
Making a rational cogent decision with someone pounding you in the head is not easy. Or even if someone is not and the adrenaline is flowing, fight or flight reaction comes over you. Add a gun.... it doesn't end well (see: well, this case).
The tragedy is, from what I've read I don't think this event had anything to do with racism, until others got hold of it.
The "gansta" is the one on the right. Couldn't we also describe him using some of Kanye West's song lyrics? Probably not, because white people are called racist if they quote black song lyrics.
Quote: KeyserFurthermore, he was purposefully playing the part that he knew personified a "gangsta" or thug like look and personality.
So what of it? It's not a crime.
Quote: KeyserThe "gansta" is the one on the right. Couldn't we also describe him using some of Kanye West's song lyrics? Probably not, because white people are called racist if they quote black song lyrics.
Really? I call BS. Or the US is a really sad sad state of affairs. I better stop quoting Jimmi Hendrix next time I visit.
However, Ted Nuggent just wants to look like a rocker.
Quote: KeyserThe reason black people dress like that is because they want the people around them to to feel intimidated, and to view them as drug dealers, thugs, and some choice Kanye West song lyrics words. If you set out to look like a "gangsta" then don't feel shocked when people give you the attention that you crave.
However, Ted Nuggent just wants to look like a rocker.
Rock n Rollers have been notoriously condemned many times over. Alice Cooper cut heads off maniquins on stage with gullitine, and now most famously known for playing lots of golf.
Some were as bad as their persona, some weren't anything like it.
Quote: Faceand I’ve gotten my ass kicked by a 140lb bean pole, all in the same year. You just don’t know.
Had a guy who drove for me when I had
the cab co. He was a fighter, he loved to
fight. Big guy, 6 2 and 240. He said he's
beat hundreds of guys up, and been beat
a few times. You never know who was
going to kick your ass. He got arrested so
many times the judge finally told him one
more arrest for fighting and it was prison
time, so he quit.
He told me the secret to winning a fight is
always hit first and hurt the guy bad, make
him wish he'd never met you. Didn't always
work, he ended up in hospital himself a lot.
I saw lots of fights as a bar owner, they
were always over in less than 15 seconds.
The fights you see on TV and the movies
are a joke.
Hey, isn't this RACIST?
Sorry Eric, but the JURY has spoken; it WAS a necessary shooting.
Your liberal pro-black bias is showing.
It was "justified" but not "necessary?"
I see no difference, at least in the context of a self-defense shooting.
Obviously the ladies on the jury concluded it was necessary, didn't they?
Otherwise he'd be guilty.
It's like flipping a light switch: ON or OFF.
No gray areas.
Zimmerman felt it was necessary to shoot the guy as part of his justifiable right to defend himself.
Quote: MrVReally?
It was "justified" but not "necessary?"
I see no difference, at least in the context of a self-defense shooting.
Obviously the ladies on the jury concluded it was necessary, didn't they?
Otherwise he'd be guilty.
It's like flipping a light switch: ON or OFF.
No gray areas.
I'm not an attorney, but I'm reasonably confident the law does not support that position. If someone levels a crossbow at you, you can justify shooting him first with a pistol -- but you don't have to.
And no, the ladies on the jury did not conclude it was necessary -- that was not the question they were asked to answer. Jury instructions are very specific. The question they were asked to answer was whether Mr. Zimmerman was guilty of either murder or manslaughter.
In order for the jury to conclude he was justified in blowing Martin out of his shoes, the jury must have agreed with Zimmerman that, at that moment in time, he deemed it necessary.
Yeah, splitting hairs.
I have the gift.
Quote: EvenBobHad a guy who drove for me when I had
the cab co. He was a fighter, he loved to
fight. Big guy, 6 2 and 240. He said he's
beat hundreds of guys up, and been beat
a few times. You never know who was
going to kick your ass. He got arrested so
many times the judge finally told him one
more arrest for fighting and it was prison
time, so he quit.
He told me the secret to winning a fight is
always hit first and hurt the guy bad, make
him wish he'd never met you. Didn't always
work, he ended up in hospital himself a lot.
I saw lots of fights as a bar owner, they
were always over in less than 15 seconds.
The fights you see on TV and the movies
are a joke.
I suppose I was the opposite. Fought to many draws, a few severe ass whoopin's, and just a few shocking victories. I mean, I'm not painting myself as a baddest ass east of the Mississip'. Far from it. Mostly, I took beatings for others. I just couldn't stand seeing other kids getting picked on. I wasn't big enough to stop it with just a look, and I was too stubborn to just let it go.
Totally agree with your own observations and that's why I made my comment. Seems most of the "experience" here comes from watching boxing, MMA, or Hollywood faux fights. Real fights are bing-bang-boom and done. Someone's out, or cries off, or it's broken up. The most Hollywood brawl I've ever been in featured me in my prime, 185lb at the peak of my physical being, against a 220lb defensive lineman, also in his physical prime. It had flying tackles, body slams, ground and pound, flying knees, punch combos, wrasslin', attempts to bash heads into concrete, it had it all. When finished, it was all I had to just stay on my feet and keep my racing heart from exploding. Near as I can figure, from first contact to last, it went 30 seconds. And that was a damn long time. Most of them, excluding hockey, were under 10.
And it's terrifying. Just use the Googling and see how many people DIE from one blow to the head. Nah, man. Not me. You can call me a redskinned savage all day long. Have at it. Ain't worth a life, mine OR yours.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI had some drunk guy try hitting me and I pushed on his forehead and knocked him over as if in the name of Jesus. It was hilarious and I didn't have to even punch him, but it did later start a riot.
I have the gift.
onenickelmiracle uses Lay on Hands. It's super effective! XD
But to your "disabling shot" comment...
Do you agree that a gun is a last resort?
Do you agree that a gun should not make an appearance until one is prepared and intent on using it?
Do you agree that a gun should be used only when life and safety are in imminent danger?
If you answered yes, which you should have*, then how are you going to look the prosecutor in the face and answer the question that I guarantee would be coming - "So, you feared for your life and believed your safety was in direct, imminent danger, yet had the time, the composure, and the wherewithal to aim and connect with his knee, a knee which is only "4 square inches in area and is moving all over? Is that what you're telling us, Mr nickelmiracle?"
Maybe in Texas. Here, and most other places, you're going to jail even if you were honest and righteous and tried to spare his life.
If you can go for a disabling shot, then your life isn't in danger. If your life is in danger, then you shoot to kill. There is no middle ground.
*unless you're on either extreme side
Quote: FaceReal fights are bing-bang-boom and done. Someone's out, or cries off, or it's broken up.
And that 10 or 15 seconds is exhausting for the
fighters. They expend so much energy in that
short amount of time that they almost collapse
afterwards. Makes you appreciate what shape
boxers have to be in to last 10 rounds. In the
old days they had 100 round bare knuckle
fighting, those had to be some tough and crazy
MF'ers, I can't even imagine it.
If you doubt what Face and I are saying, count
off 15 seconds on your watch, and imagine
you're fighting somebody during the count. It will
seem like 2min when you're the one involved.
Quote: FaceIf you can go for a disabling shot, then your life isn't in danger. If your life is in danger, then you shoot to kill.
+1
Quote: EvenBobAnd that 10 or 15 seconds is exhausting for the
fighters. They expend so much energy in that
short amount of time that they almost collapse
afterwards. Makes you appreciate what shape
boxers have to be in to last 10 rounds. In the
old days they had 100 round bare knuckle
fighting, those had to be some tough and crazy
MF'ers, I can't even imagine it.
You have no idea (or maybe you do, I'm just sayin'...). When we finally threw each other off and separated, I felt real fear. If he had some left in his tank, I was done for. I'm not joking, I thought I was going to drop, and not from trauma. I was square in the middle of training camp, the absolute fittest shape I had ever been and ever would be, and I thought I was going to die of exhaustion.
Hockey now? Pfft. Unless something happens within 10 seconds of me stepping on the ice, I ain't starting nothin'. It ain't the pain, or the fear, it's just too much work!
Quote: MrVReally?
It was "justified" but not "necessary?"
I see no difference, at least in the context of a self-defense shooting.
Obviously the ladies on the jury concluded it was necessary, didn't they?
Otherwise he'd be guilty.
It's like flipping a light switch: ON or OFF.
No gray areas.
Zimmerman felt it was necessary to shoot the guy as part of his justifiable right to defend himself.
What they determined was that it was not unreasonable to entertain Zimmerman's story as a possibility, and that in that story the shooting was necessary at the time it took place, not that that point in Zimmerman's story portrayed anything other than an egregious mess he himself brought on.
(And that would be if there weren't a phone call incompatible with his story that the jury ignored because they're just that gosh-darn offended by the word "cracker." One presumes if Martin had said "honky," they'd be petitioning for a medal as we speak.)
Quote: EvenBobAnd that 10 or 15 seconds is exhausting for the
fighters. They expend so much energy in that
short amount of time that they almost collapse
afterwards.
Remember a guy from the early days of UFC, Tank Abbott?
A true brawler, who if he got to you early it was Lights Out.
It soon became obvious that the guy had no stamina and was woefully out of shape, so after a round or two of tap dancing with him, his better conditioned opponent would have worn him out and could then eat him for lunch.
Quote: FaceYou have no idea (or maybe you do, I'm just sayin'...). When we finally threw each other off and separated, I felt real fear. If he had some left in his tank, I was done for. I'm not joking, I thought I was going to drop, and not from trauma. I was square in the middle of training camp, the absolute fittest shape I had ever been and ever would be, and I thought I was going to die of exhaustion.
Hockey now? Pfft. Unless something happens within 10 seconds of me stepping on the ice, I ain't starting nothin'. It ain't the pain, or the fear, it's just too much work!
Ali called it rope a dope. Exhaust your opponent so he can
barely lift his arms and take him down. You can understand
how women get raped. They so exhaust themselves in fighting
off a big opponent that in 2 min all they can do is give in.
Quote: MrV
It soon became obvious that the guy had no stamina and was woefully out of shape, so after a round or two of tap dancing with him, his better conditioned opponent would have worn him out and then eat him for lunch.
This often seemed to be the case with Mike Tyson. If he couldn't beat the guy in the first round he couldn't beat him.
Quote: rxwineRock n Rollers have been notoriously condemned many times over. Alice Cooper cut heads off maniquins on stage with gullitine, and now most famously known for playing lots of golf.
Some were as bad as their persona, some weren't anything like it.
I like how Tipper Gore's crusade was against Dee Snider for his music that was "destroying families". Twenty years later, Snider is married to the same woman and has a very happy family. The Gores have gone through a divorce because of Al's frisky behavior...
Quote: AZDuffmanThis often seemed to be the case with Mike Tyson. If he couldn't beat the guy in the first round he couldn't beat him.
But sometimes he just terrified someone without ever touching them
LOL.
Quote: cclub79I like how Tipper Gore's crusade was against Dee Snider for his music that was "destroying families". Twenty years later, Snider is married to the same woman and has a very happy family. The Gores have gone through a divorce because of Al's frisky behavior...
+1
Damn, didn't even think about it that way, man!
I can't support a racial motive for Zimmerman's actions that night. Certainly, in America, there is a bias against black people, and it stems from different cultures, history, and misunderstandings between races. But Zimmerman's action are just those of an overzealous neighbourhood watch person looking to find and thwart trouble, not of someone trying to kill a black punk.
The Florida laws have given people the right to kill if they feel threatened. Zimmerman made alot of poor decisions that put him and the victim (and Trayvon is certainly a victim) on a path to danger: the decision to follow Trayvon in the first place (he was doing nothing wrong), the decision to carry a concealed weapon, the decision to get out of his car and invite a confrontation that led to Trayvon's death.
But none of what Zimmerman did was criminal, at least in Florida. When the confrontation started, Zimmerman was likely getting beat up by Trayvon, and therefore at that time, Zimmerman had the right for self-defense, which he used. The jury certainly found that the evidence was such.
Of course Trayvon plays a huge part of this in getting involved in the confrontation. He could have chosen to run, to hide, to do other things than fight. And when you get into a fight, there's a huge risk. But that's a tough lesson for a 17 year old to learn.
It's sad that Trayvon had to die, but Zimmerman isn't guilty.
Quote: boymimboMy two cents, FWIW.
I can't support a racial motive for Zimmerman's actions that night. Certainly, in America, there is a bias against black people, and it stems from different cultures, history, and misunderstandings between races. But Zimmerman's action are just those of an overzealous neighbourhood watch person looking to find and thwart trouble, not of someone trying to kill a black punk.
The Florida laws have given people the right to kill if they feel threatened. Zimmerman made alot of poor decisions that put him and the victim (and Trayvon is certainly a victim) on a path to danger: the decision to follow Trayvon in the first place (he was doing nothing wrong), the decision to carry a concealed weapon, the decision to get out of his car and invite a confrontation that led to Trayvon's death.
But none of what Zimmerman did was criminal, at least in Florida. When the confrontation started, Zimmerman was likely getting beat up by Trayvon, and therefore at that time, Zimmerman had the right for self-defense, which he used. The jury certainly found that the evidence was such.
Of course Trayvon plays a huge part of this in getting involved in the confrontation. He could have chosen to run, to hide, to do other things than fight. And when you get into a fight, there's a huge risk. But that's a tough lesson for a 17 year old to learn.
It's sad that Trayvon had to die, but Zimmerman isn't guilty.
+1
Other than the underlined part, I totally, totally agree with this post!
Quote: boymimboMy two cents, FWIW.
I can't support a racial motive for Zimmerman's actions that night. Certainly, in America, there is a bias against black people, and it stems from different cultures, history, and misunderstandings between races. But Zimmerman's action are just those of an overzealous neighbourhood watch person looking to find and thwart trouble, not of someone trying to kill a black punk.
The Florida laws have given people the right to kill if they feel threatened. Zimmerman made alot of poor decisions that put him and the victim (and Trayvon is certainly a victim) on a path to danger: the decision to follow Trayvon in the first place (he was doing nothing wrong), the decision to carry a concealed weapon, the decision to get out of his car and invite a confrontation that led to Trayvon's death.
But none of what Zimmerman did was criminal, at least in Florida. When the confrontation started, Zimmerman was likely getting beat up by Trayvon, and therefore at that time, Zimmerman had the right for self-defense, which he used. The jury certainly found that the evidence was such.
Of course Trayvon plays a huge part of this in getting involved in the confrontation. He could have chosen to run, to hide, to do other things than fight. And when you get into a fight, there's a huge risk. But that's a tough lesson for a 17 year old to learn.
It's sad that Trayvon had to die, but Zimmerman isn't guilty.
He was trying to "find and thwart trouble," but you can bet that in his mind "trouble" comes in a specific color. The role of the "stand your ground" law is vastly overstated, rather intentionally by the anti-gun folk - Zimmerman actually voluntarily submitted to the older, stricter rules, and was acquitted under them. In any state in the country, if someone attacks you, and begins beating your head against concrete, and you can't escape, you're entitled to shoot them, unless you got your own dumb ass into this situation by attacking them. And even in Florida, if you got your own dumb ass into such a situation, you can't be acquitted unless you can put on a sad enough face for the jury and convince them that teenage mischief and calling someone a "cracker" are capital crimes.
Quote: boymimboMy two cents, FWIW.
Certainly, in America, there is a bias against black people, .
Hold on there, Canadiaan. Says who? The latest poll
shows Blacks are far more racist against Whites than
the other way around.
Quote: Beethoven9thI don't know what your height/weight is, but I'm sure I can find someone approximately your size who knows how to fight and who can take you down & subdue you in an instant.
For that matter, I don't know what high school you went to, but I witnessed many high school fights between two guys (who were about the same size) where one ended up getting pummeled by the other. Hell, even Manny Pacquiao got knocked out by a guy who was approximately his size.
George and Trayvon were not about the same size, there is a reason that wrestling and boxing weight classes to do not have 28 pound spreads. This was a fight between a 28 year old man and a 17 year old high school kid. If you cannot handle yourself in a physical confrontation, you should not confront someone.
That's why the verdict was correct. If you don't know what happened, then you don't have nearly enough information that goes 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.
absolutely true, our criminal justice system is set up not to convict guilty parties, but to keep from convicting innocent ones
That's just as ignorant as saying that if Trayvon Martin had not been out that night we would have never heard of either of them.
No it is the truth, if George had stayed in the car like the police requested, this never happens.
Quote: CS94No it is the truth, if George had stayed in the car like the police requested, this never happens.
Yes, lets blame the neighborhood watch person who was just tired of break-ins and vandalism in his neighborhood. Lets not blame the kid who thought he was too good to be questioned when he was walking very close-by the houses.
Had Travon just said he lived nearby and was trying to get out of the rain the confrontation would have stopped right then and there. But we live in a society where politeness and manners are made fun of. Where Michael Vick is a hero and Tim Tebow is ridiculed.
And there is a large problem where younger black males are taught that the only reason people do anything negative towards them are because of racism on the part of the other party. I saw this when I managed the pest control company. I had to fire or discipline people, and on occasion it was younger black males. One lost half his customer base, much for just plain stupid things (eg: he came to do pest control service at noon at a restaurant!) When I laid him off he was amazed. The whole time he worked there if a white manager tried to coach him he had a look on his face as though he was being hassled.
This is what the media keeps ignoring.
Quote: CS94No it is the truth, if George had stayed in the car like the police requested, this never happens.
No, it is the truth. If Trayvon had not jumped on George "MMA style" and bashed his head against the concrete, this would have never happened.
Quote: Beethoven9thNo, it is the truth. If Trayvon had not jumped on George "MMA style" and bashed his head against the concrete, this would have never happened.
+1
Quote: MichiganBobHold on there, Canadiaan. Says who? The latest poll
shows Blacks are far more racist against Whites than
the other way around.
Yeah, but whites outnumber blacks by 6:1 and continue to hold most of the power in society. I know that this comment will raise a shitstorm of comments from people on the right (which means pretty much everyone else on this forum) but it's true. Yeah, there are exception, and yeah, that comment doesn't mean that I am blaming white people for holding blacks down or blaming black people for not pulling themselves up.
I don't believe that this was racially motivated. However, it takes two to tango. I doubt that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman out of the blue, and certainly Zimmerman should have been smart enough to avoid confrontation. Indeed, he was told by the police to avoid confrontation which was good advice and ignored.
Zimmerman is no hero. No one should have died. When people die over misunderstandings, there are no winners.
Quote: CS94No it is the truth, if George had stayed in the car like the police requested, this never happens.
The above is the single biggest misconception about the entire case. No police ever requested he stay in his truck. Ever. In any way.
Quote: boymimboYeah, but whites outnumber blacks by 6:1 and continue to hold most of the power in society. I know that this comment will raise a shitstorm of comments from people on the right (which means pretty much everyone else on this forum) but it's true. Yeah, there are exception, and yeah, that comment doesn't mean that I am blaming white people for holding blacks down or blaming black people for not pulling themselves up.
While this statement rings true and the majority of the power is held by whites, what would else anyone realistically expect? The positions of power in government are more likely to be held by the people that make up the majority of the population. 9.8% of the House of Representatives is black, roughly the same as people have noted here is the percentage of the black population. A black man was elected President twice.
This doesn't mean everything is the way it should be but we are spending way too much time on one incident and letting it create further damage when the investigation of the incident revealed no real reason to believe it was racially motivated. Instead of black leaders protesting and inciting bad behavior, they should be trying to lift their community up and make it better. We should all pray for the Martin and Zimmerman families.
Minorities can and will have more power as the population changes, but they won't get it just by being minorities. They will get it by winning elections in places where they convince the people voting that they are better for the job than the non-minority candidate. I think they are more likely to win if race isn't an issue in the election--for either side.
Quote: RonCWhile this statement rings true and the majority of the power is held by whites, what would else anyone realistically expect? The positions of power in government are more likely to be held by the people that make up the majority of the population. 9.8% of the House of Representatives is black, roughly the same as people have noted here is the percentage of the black population. A black man was elected President twice.
This doesn't mean everything is the way it should be but we are spending way too much time on one incident and letting it create further damage when the investigation of the incident revealed no real reason to believe it was racially motivated. Instead of black leaders protesting and inciting bad behavior, they should be trying to lift their community up and make it better. We should all pray for the Martin and Zimmerman families.
Minorities can and will have more power as the population changes, but they won't get it just by being minorities. They will get it by winning elections in places where they convince the people voting that they are better for the job than the non-minority candidate. I think they are more likely to win if race isn't an issue in the election--for either side.
Well said. There is a sense that somehow the Martin family is unique, and they are experiencing a horrible injustice that never happens in this country. But what of the 100s of Black Teens in Chicago, Detroit, Oakland, Camden, Philly, etc, that have been murdered since February 2012? You could fill an arena with grieving parents that have lost a child and have received no justice. Zimmerman could have gone to prison for life, and the people in the streets would be celebrating right now, and in the next year, 100s more black teens will be murdered in the country, while the media and most of the public will give out a collective yawn.
Quote: KeyserTrayvon was no kid. Furthermore, he was purposefully playing the part that he knew personified a "gangsta" or thug like look and personality.
The "gansta" is the one on the right. Couldn't we also describe him using some of Kanye West's song lyrics? Probably not, because white people are called racist if they quote black song lyrics.
This is not the Trayvon Martin who was killed. It is a different person, also named Trayvon Martin, that someone googled and pasted into this compilation. However, that hasn't stopped it from circulating widely on FB/Twitter/etc.
C'mon, man, the jury stated they felt there was no evidence of racism so let's go on with life here...
Quote: EvenBobI saw lots of fights as a bar owner, they
were always over in less than 15 seconds.
The fights you see on TV and the movies
are a joke.
I used to tend bar in mid-80s in Austin. One of our waitress's husband was a 6'5", 250# construction worker who would fight or fuck anyone in the room when he drank, named Walter. One night he picked a fight with some Mexican in the bar by breaking a long-neck bottle against a railing and swiping at him, cutting his face. Mexican ran out of the bar. I was required to call police and file a report on anything like this, so waitress convinced Walter to leave before they got there. Mexican was waiting for Walter in parking lot and ran him down in his truck. Broke so many bones in his body that Walter was in traction and casts for weeks after. After that, only job Walter could get when he was better was driving a cab.
That's justice.
And that's the sad thing in this case. A 17 year old kid who is a guest in the complex is walking around "looking suspicious". Zimmerman follows him, gets out of his truck, and a confrontation ensues, a completely unnecessary one. It is completely unclear as to who started the confrontation. The jury didn't know after hearing all of the evidence, so how could we know?
I don't have a problem with Zimmerman using his best judgement to follow and report suspicious people in his neighborhood. He was being extra-vigilant due to the rash of recent breakins in his gated community. In my opinion, Zimmerman did not use his best judgement to avoid a confrontation and certainly didn't follow the advice of the dispatcher. What seems to be clear (in my opinion) from the 911 call was that Zimmerman was agitated and clearly believed that there was a link between the person he was following and the break-ins. Zimmerman was in charge of keeping the neighborhood safe, yet break-ins were still occurring. In my opinion, there would have been a great emotional reward into resolving the situation and to feel successful at the job he was voted into doing. In my opinion, that clouded his judgement and allowed himself to get into a riskier situation than normal.
Once you understand that frame of mind, it becomes easier to understand why Zimmerman was able to place himself in a much riskier situation, to get out of his car, to follow the teenager, and that the situation could easily escalate. Zimmerman didn't know that the teenager was unarmed, didn't know if the teenager was going to meet up with a number of other people, and didn't know how the situation was going to end.
Zimmerman, as the elected head of neighborhood watch, believed he was doing his job. In the end, though, Zimmerman should have avoided danger and let the cops do their job and leave the pursuit of Trayvon for another day. We don't know who threw the first punch. We don't know what the verdict would have been if Zimmerman had fired the shot and claimed that Trayvon was about to attack him. What we do know is that there was a physical altercation that escalated because Zimmerman had the gun. Trayvon isn't alive to claim that he was defending himself, and the audio and forensic evidence is murky.
In the end, lesson learned (in Florida): don't look suspicious, or you could wind up dead.
"When you feel powerless, you want to take the power back.
When you want to take the power back, you take Karate.
When you take Karate, you want to use your Karate.
When you want to use your Karate, you become "The Fist of Goodness".
When you become The Fist of Goodness, you run along rooftops.
And when you run along roof tops, you fall into a dinner party."
